They say there is a hare's breath between genius and and insanity.If Michael Jackson had a normal loving family life,there probably would have not been the tension to create this non ordinary reality that we saw in his stage performances.Right throughout history we see this creative self destructive force that questions the very nature of our being.

Jacko was nothing but pure magic on stage,yet personally,was an insecure unforfilled almost pathetic being.In his later life he reminds me of Prufrock in TS Elliot's poem.Jacko would spend hours deliberating with friends on the possibility of part taking coffee at a restaurant.Prufrock, "Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare eat a peach?" Jacko unlike his stage persona was full of self doubt like Prufrock.There are parrallels that are almost hauntingly familiar.

Prufrock,"In the room the women come an go talking of Michelangelo."Thus we have the superficial banter of fans who have no knowledge of the pain that created the moment,yet they assume possession of his being.

Prufrock was obsessed with going bald and how he looked.Odly Michael Jackson had lost his hair and presentaton was also an obsession.He surcumbed to the black inferority complex via the veil of cosmetic surgeory.

Prufrock,"We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us and we drown"

"I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,
And I have seen the eternal footman hold my coat,and snicker,
And in short,I was afraid."

see http://bartleby.com/198/1.html

Oh thank god, he’s gone, we only need to survive the memorials now!
I realize I’m out of step with the brain-washed general public, but in my opinion he was rubbish.
His “music” was machine-generated, computer-enhanced pop pap, his “dancing” came straight from Monty Pythons “Department of Silly Walks”, his show productions were what any fool can achieve with millions to spend and a record company to promote it, through all the brain-dead radio and music “gurus”.
Garbage is as garbage does!
He was the paragon of putrescence, the king of cruddola, and a blight on the entertainment scene.
His personal life would have landed anyone else in gaol, yet he was able to blatantly buy his way out. He shone a spotlight on the corruption of the American Justice, and Music, systems, and people applauded!
We’re well rid of him!

I basically agree with Maximillion. After living through and enjoying music by bands like the Beatles, Fleetwood Mac, Cat Stevens, ABBA, the Eagles etc in the sixties and seventies, everything got turned on its head when DISCO became a big thing in 1978. In my opinion, DISCO was trash and Michael Jackson's music was just an extension of that with a highly-staged and furiously-paced visual element added on. If you liked big bangs, you'd probably like Michael Jackson, but I thought the music was ordinary. That was about the time I switched off pop music.

Dear Arjay,

Music as Art is extremely subjective.

Yet there's no denying Michael Jackson leaves
behind him an awesome music legacy. He made
a huge impact globally - on his generation,
and his concerts and albums were sell outs -
confirming the fact that he was a great
performer.

Your link to the T.S. Eliot poem is very perceptive.

The tragedy lies in his choice of lifestyle - his
obsession with cosmetic surgery, prescription drugs,
anorexia, and fascination with children. All of which
took its toll.
The circus that now surrounds his death - will undoubtedly
continue for some time - his family and business associates
will milk it for all its worth.

It will be years later that the truth will come out
regarding the enigma that was Michael Jackson - perhaps
then he will be able to Rest In Peace.

‘Yet there's no denying Michael Jackson leaves
behind him an awesome music legacy.’

But I DO deny it, most emphaticly!
What legacy? A pile of extremely forgettable pop songs, with meaningless drivel as lyrics.
Just because they spent a fortune on promotion, and production of video clips, does NOT make him a great performer, Norman Gunstan would have done as well, or even RinTin Tin, with that level of spending.
He couldn’t sing worth a bishop’s budgie, he was a “screamer”, a poser, and a pratt.
It appalls me the way the industry promotes someone, and the madding crowd follows along, convinced by all the noise and glitter.
Smoke and mirrors, and P.T.Barnhams observation on the birth-rate of certain people, spring to mind!

To get back to Arjay's point, I think Michael Jackson can be summed up as being a genuinely nice guy with a great voice and dancing talent who had crap lyrics and ordinary music and who had bad judgement and did things for the wrong reasons (mostly because of his father's influence).

He was a case study in what happens when one goes past one's sustainable limits; an eclectic, twisted mix of good and bad. John Lennon had a similar problem but was nowhere near as twisted out of shape as Jackson.

Gentlemen,

We're all entitled to our opinions.
That doesn't necessarily make them right.
As I stated in my previous post - music
like art - is subjective.

The history of music is made up of a very
wide range of tastes. And it will be history
that will judge the extent of Michael Jackson's
musical talents - regardless of what we may think.

Cheers.

I'm not trying to put Jacko on a pedastal.Billy Joel,Paul Simon,Jackson Brown,Elton John,Paul McCartney are in a league way above Jackson.Jackson was an amazing stage performer but I think he lacked deep insight into his own being.The fanatasy became reality and he could justify a lot of wrongs in the name of his feel good philosophy.You cannot be whimpishly kind all the time.Love and caring is demonstrated through a wide range of emotions from anger to elation.Jacko really lost in the end and money could not save him.He did not have one friend or relative who could set him straight.

Dylan Thomas was another tragic genius who wrote Under Milkwood.What I'm really expressing is the perceptive genius of TS Eliot that has universal insight into people from all stratas of society.There is a bit of Prufrock in each of us.

Dear Arjay,

As I wrote in an earlier post -
your choice of TS Eliot's character -
Prufrock, was extremely perceptive in
regards to Michael Jackson. Jackson
like the character of Prufrock -
was a vain, weak man, who sadly lacked
the will to change his life.

Music is very individual aye Foxy. I love Leonard Cohen, Marianne Faithful, The Who, REM, Queen, Talking Heads, most music but nah not disco. I have a younger teen (not mine) that was very upset about Michael and horrified that I was sitting listening to Insane Clown Posse the other night. But when I played some younger Jackson she didn’t even glance up so I figured not a true fan.

The impact music has is amazing. I listen to random things as I post online and really depending what I am listening to can and does predict quite often how I leave a message or how I feel reading one. I should probably cut it out.

I never believe anything trashy about pop stars so my only feeling about Mr Jackson was that his face looked funny, he put on amazing shows, made lots of money, and many people seemed to like him.

Personally I’d tolerate a funny looking face if I could have the other things.

Jewels you've just listed my iTunes library, although there's also a fair bit of the Stones, Tom Petty, a heap of blues by all sorts of people - some well-known, some not, plus a heap of other stuff, ranging from Beethoven to Zeppelin (AC/DC to Zep really, but Beethoven scanned better and all his symphonies and concertos are there).

I'm going to shock a stack of people here and say I reckon that one of the most powerfully moving songs I know is "The Ballad of Lucy Jordan" as sung by Marianne Faithfull, which is about a woman living the suburban dream comitting suicide through depression brought about by sheer boredom and too much time to reflect on unfulfilled dreams. It brings a tear to my eye every time I hear it, because there must be so many people going through the same thing.

To come back to the topic, I reckon Jackson was a bit of a Lucy Jordan. He never achieved true greatness musically as far as I can see, despite incredible early promise. "Off the Wall" was a really good funk/fusion album with great players and awesome production and then there was "Thriller", but then...

Vale, I say. Let the poor tortured bugger RIP. I'd not have wanted his life for 10 times the quids.

Real music.
Europa (Earth's Cry, Heaven's Smile), Santana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBDLQZgntYE&feature=related

Irespect everyone’s right to their own opinions, I’ve said my piece on the whacko, so I thought I’d contribute some taste instead.

Real music.
Europa (Earth's Cry, Heaven's Smile), Santana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBDLQZgntYE&feature=related

I respect everyone’s right to their own opinions, I’ve said my piece on the whacko, so I thought I’d contribute some taste instead.

A "hare's breath" ?

Arjay, you really do have a poetic side.

Thriller was the biggest selling album "of all time", by a long way. It sold well over 100 million copies.

No other musician, singer, band, orchestra or instrumentalist, regardless of genre, has put out an album that got even close to that achievement.

In those days MJ was the biggest and most popular recording star and live performer in the world - - - no one else got even close.

Unfortunately MJ now provides a vehicle for bitter old men like max here (who probably can't even play one note decently) to spout his ridiculous, judgmental, puerile garbage. It's the tall poppy syndrome - - - where failed, obscure Aussies just love to criticise powerful or successful people. I bet it made you feel really important eh max - - - congratulations.

Master, what a sad sad person you are, and barely worth a response.
Because I have different tastes in music to the mindless masses you abuse me?
Fine upstanding gent YOU are then. Haven’t you even noticed what this site is called?
Online OPINION?
Look it up, it doesn’t mean agreeing with YOU!
The only feeling this thread has given me is disgust at YOUR attitude.
I see no reason to justify myself or my achievements to you, so I won’t.
I’ll just ask this: How many International Awards have YOU won in your field of endeavor?
Because I have.
And as a matter of interest, music doesn’t play a large part in my life, perhaps that enables me to take a more objective view of it, and to be less susceptible to the hype, unlike you.
“Quick, quick, the herd’s moving this way, musn’t stand out, baaaa, baaaa”!
And what happens to sheep? They get shorn, and eaten, says it all, really.
You have my pity.

Arjay, that’s supposed to be spelt- “Hairs breadth”, meaning the thickness of a hair between them. It’s all too easy to mistake one for the other, as in this case

Sock-puppets are for ridiculing, Max, not engaging with. This one won't be around long, have fun with it.

BTW, do you know Primus?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn-s5cmy8dU

I quite appreciated that too, CJ.

>>A "hare's breath" ? Arjay, you really do have a poetic side.<<

I also rather liked:

>>Dylan Thomas was another tragic genius who wrote Under Milkwood.<<

It hadn't occurred to me before that Under Milk Wood had been multiply authored, and that Jacko might be among their number.

It's never dull around here, is it?

Foxy,

After thinking about this a bit more, I'd say I never found MJ particularly appealing as he always seemed to find a way to mangle beauty. Not that it was totally his fault, but once he got caught up in the pop vortex, there was no turning back.

You're right that music is highly subjective. I find, like a lot of people, that I'm drawn to certain music which is quite different and depends on my moods. My favourite band as a teenager was Jethro Tull because they were unorthodox, individual and actively stood up to orthodox thinking. Lately, I've been discovering Cream - just brilliant stuff! I even went through a phase where I listened to Guns'n'Roses. Not quite sure what happened there. I also liked REM when they were around and still listen to the radio and like the odd good song.

Dear RobP,

My taste in music is very wide and varied and
also depends on my mood.

I have two brothers both of whom were musicians -
so music was always a part of my life. My parents
loved people like - Ray Conniff, Henry Mancini,
Herb Albert, Eartha Kitt, Nina Simone.

My taste varies from - The Beach Boys, to Pat Benatar,
David Bowie, Crosby, Stills & Nash, Bruce Springsteen,
R.E.M. Queen, Pointer Sisters (Slow Hand), Gloria Gaynor,
INXS, John Cougar Mellenchamp, Neil Diamond (Hot August Night),
Eurythmics (Sweet Dreams - Are Made of This), and so on.

I also love Latin American Music - especially Tangos.
I love the Gypsy Kings, Shakira, and belly-dancing - so I
don't know what that says about me. I also love classical
music, opera, ballet, and the theatre.

I've never really been a Michael Jackson fan - but I do enjoy
some of his hits like - Thriller, Beat It, Bad...

Love The Ballad of Lucy Jordan and it was played loudly when I turned 37. I liked Tom Petty but really enjoyed the Travelling Wilbury’s. And I did have the Bob Dylon box collection which took a whole paycheck in the 80’s but my ex forgot the kids and took that instead. He was a Def Lepard fan. I weirdly enough prefer Mozart but haven’t listened for years. And a good Opera singer at full volume is brilliant.

Hey Anti I have a tape here with no label and have no idea what it is but it is David Bowie and Iggy Pop singing together… very cool and I’ve had it for years without knowing what it is called and now I don’t have a tape player anymore. Any ideas? Oh and some Grace Jones… haven’t listened to that one in years either.

My most recent purchase was Tom Jones Reload so shows how long since I went shopping. Did get hubby to go buy me The Angels, Darkroom cause, well it’s cool. My kids bought me a Mika CD… fun music and the little ones I have go wild when I put that on.

Tell me if you like this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe8jJBoEmuY cause no one at home does and I think it’s great and they have a song called Homies that I like but not that keen on the rest. Hubby says it is thrash metal and he hates it – who knew. He is hooked on ACDC. We both like Pink Floyd. Me and my teens enjoy hip hop with lots of bass and stuff but I hate the whiney love songs. And (keep it quiet though) I like Marty Robbins and those old songs. Never liked Split Ends, don’t know why. My ex really liked that one where they play with an orchestra though. Had a flat mate that was a big Frank Zappa fan but can’t say I understood that either.

Thank you Max, loved it. Do you like Peter Frampton?

You just discovered Cream Rob – where were you? My big brother discovered them too.

Piper,

"You just discovered Cream Rob – where were you?"

Good question. I've no idea how I missed it. Because the music wasn't advertised or played on the radio much when I was growing up I'm guessing, although I knew the stories about Eric Clapton being a legendary guitarist. Their music really hits the spot. I saw their reunion concert at the Albert Hall, London on TV and realised how good they were.

A few others I forgot to mention: Neil Young, Queen (particularly their early stuff up to about 1980), Dire Straits before they got played to death, Gary Moore (Wild Frontier, Friday on my mind) and Pink Floyd.

Max complains that I have abused him. He says that happened because he has different tastes in music to others. He "assumes" I like MJ music. I'm in my 80's and trust me Maxie, MJ's music has not made my personal top 40.

UMMMM Maxie, you're not too bright are you old son - - the reason I had a go at you was obvious from what I wrote. Think about it Max. You ABUSED AND ABUSED AND ABUSED another person in 2 posts on the first page of this topic. Your 2 abusive posts were mindless, vindictive rubbish.

Let's see what our Maxie said about another human being's lifetime professional endeavours (the most successful recording artist ever with over 100 million copies of Thriller sold):

1) he was a pratt

2) he was rubbish

3) garbage is as garbage does

4) he was the paragon of putrescence

5) he was a blight on the entertainment scene

6) HIS SHOW PRODUCTIONS WERE WHAT ANY FOOL CAN ACHIEVE

7) we're well rid of him

8) meaningless drivel

9) he couldn't sing worth a bishop's budgie

Max, those bitter comments from you show you're a sad man, consumed by antipathy towards someone you never met, didn't know; he was a stranger to you. Yet you HATE his music so much, you are prepared to make yourself look ridiculous by pretending that your abusive opinion on MJ's performance abilities actually means anything and carries weight.

So Max, I put you in your place because you thought you'd "try" to be "clever" and ABUSE a dead man. The fact that you can feel so bitter about music, shows you to be rather obsessive and a very sad man indeed.

Think of this as a life lesson Max: If you abuse others in public, you stand the chance of getting it thrown right back in your OWN face.

I prefer country music myself so this bloke did nothing for me. The sooner he is gone from the news the better. The news casters must live on a different planet to me and my friends and neighbors for we find the continueing news disgusting, he was not even Aussie, and the repetitive film clips nauseating.

I really appreciate the remote, wish it was shaped like a clock.

Messter, you’d be laughable if you weren’t so sad!
Are you suggesting just because he’s dead I shouldn’t express my negative opinion of him? You really are sad. The only thing I was annoyed about was the incessant news coverage, and the weepy opinions about how good he was. IMO, he wasn’t, and I said what I thought, isn’t that why we’re here?
I stand by every single comment, proudly.
Commercial success is no indicator of talent, only of marketing.
The only “place putting” you achieved was to demonstrate your own lack, sadly.
I’m sure the whacko is lying comfortably, knowing you’re out here protecting him, lol.
Antiseptic, I’m going to take your advice, and disengage with the sock-puppet, until or unless it learns some manners. Who would have thought we’d need to teach manners to the (claimed) elderly? Che’ sera.
Let’s hope it’s not too old to learn.

Maxie wrote, " Are you suggesting just because he's dead I shouldn't express a negative opinion of him?"

Master replies: You didn't read my post did you Maxie. I said, if you ABUSE someone in a public forum you need to expect that type of abuse to be THROWN BACK INTO YOUR 'OWN' FACE.

Maxie, you're quite welcome to abuse anyone you wish. But unfortunately, you don't seem able to 'take it' when it's pointed in YOUR direction.

THAT was my point. Duh!

So, think of my post as a lesson in 'life' for you Maxie. Your opinions ans assumptions on MJ's music and talents were mean spirited in the EXTREME, and possibly gives an insight into the type of person you are. The same things could have been better expressed using dignity and finesse - - - YOU CHOSE ANGST AND ABUSE! Why are you so full of angst regarding a total stranger's music - - - someone you've never met, spoken to or know? Sad, sad sad

Ar' the 'tall poppys' are out in force.

Below is a list of awards won by the man. Combine these with the 750 million records sold (TO DATE) and the millions of fans he has left behind and I would suggest you lot are barking up the wrong tree.

The man was truely gifted, a musical genius.

Why do you always mock succesfull people?

List of Michael Jackson awards
Michael Jackson at the White House in 1984

Major Awards Wins
American Music Awards 22
Billboard Awards 40
BRIT Awards 7
Golden Globe Awards 1
Grammy Awards 19
Guinness World Records 13
MTV Awards 13
NAACP Image Awards 14
RIAA Awards 56
World Music Awards 12
Totals
Major awards won 19

Foxy,I'm not ignoring you .Thanks for the complement.

Maximillion,I think that Jacko was probably a paedophile but you have to look at what creates them.Usually it starts in the family and often the father is the instigator.There is such a thing as sexual imprinting,ie the initial experiences tend to imprint upon some people their sexual destiny.They know that it is wrong but because of their experiences they cannot have normal human relationships,thus revert to the security if the perversions they knew from childhood.

Jacko probably had failed relationships right throughout his life and ultimately tried to revert to a lost childhood with devestating results.Paedophiles often beget paedophiles.Some people suffer from such perversions and escape to become very strong people with a keen sense of justice.

To some degree we as parents burden our children with our inadaquaces.Jacko was not equiped with the wisdom nor the sound family background to cope with the fantasy world of pop idolisation.Jacko became the fantasy and it was a tragic end.

Antiseptic, I’m going to take your advice, and disengage with the sock-puppet, until or unless it learns some manners.
M
You yourself chose to heap abuse, for what reason precisely?
Just because you could, as far as I can see.
Learn this.
I am entitled to offer an opinion in any way I see fit,(within the rules), as are you, and since you don’t know me, as you pointed out re’ the whacko and I, you have no way of knowing why or how I choose to do so. That’s an arrogant assumption, and saddens me in one supposedly so elderly.
My observations here, however expressed, were ontopic, about the subject. You turned on me, not ontopic, and that only betrays your lack of understanding of polite behaviour online.
Please read more, much more, and dictate to others less, you’ll be far more welcome, in my opinion.
Arjay, I really do not want to go into his personal life, it was subject to so much publicity I doubt we do now, or ever will, know the truth, and it’s not a pleasant area of life.
I’m not one to ignore it, I just don’t feel it’s productive to dwell on here.
Rehctub, as I said before, I believe his “success” had more to do with marketing than any other factor, he had a lot of money behind him, and became a “fad”, like many before and since. Mob psychology as a marketing tool, basically.
Thus endeth my contributions to this thread.
Amen

Jewels, I'd not have called that particular track of ICP's thrash metal. It's quite poppy, although some of their stuff is pretty thrashy. Have you ever heard Ramstein? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doTBT46wMvA

I'm not a big fan, but if you like thrash...

Max, this particular sock-puppet is a spectacularly dopey one, I agree. She was just the same in her previous incarnations. Some people are incapable of learning, the poor things.

“Jewels, I'd not have called that particular track of ICP's thrash metal. It's quite poppy, although some of their stuff is pretty thrashy. Have you ever heard Ramstein? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doTBT46wMvA “

Not knowing the words was driving me nuts but I liked the music. Words seem to mean a lot to me in a song. I didn’t think that ICP song was particularly thrash like either but until I was told that I don’t think I could have spotted thrash metal in a lineup. Hubby says he was exaggerating to annoy me… I am read like a book.

RobP, love love love Queen, it is my vacuuming music. Mopping the floor and I go for Faith No More.

“Max, this particular sock-puppet is a spectacularly dopey one, I agree. She was just the same in her previous incarnations. Some people are incapable of learning, the poor things.”

Anti for the love of god don’t go back to the NRL thread. Pop song for you and Max: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW8ATwgpuXY and RobP as anyone who likes Freddy Mercury should enjoy Mika’s voice.

I wrote somewhere recently in reference to mr jackson that "the freak show is over". How wrong I was. His fans are an awful parody and the circus that was/is wacko jacko has only gotten more and more bizarre as every hour ticks by.
To all those praising his talent and musical genius I say look to Mr Quincy Jones. The real genius behind all those hit songs. A man unacknowledged and treated contemptuously by the gloved idiot and his supporters.
Let us not forget the media and their not so long ago feeding frenzy when mr jackson was accused of pedophilia. Now they laud him as a long held saint and the greatest deceased musician? (has anyone actually seen him play any instrument) since Elvis. Who can forget the images of his ugly botched plastic surgery. Gleefully bought to us (and lapped up by the public just as gleefully) by the same trash rags and vapid talking (air)heads that are now in raptures about how committed to him they have always been and how thriller has never been out of their cd players since the day they bought it.
Makes me want to vomit.

Michael Jackson according to Music Historian
Glen A. Baker:
"...was a remarkably instinctive and intuitive
performer. From the first time we saw him, he
was totally in command. He had such charm and
charisma; something about him was absolutely
compelling..."

"Remarkable though he was as a child, who would
have thought he'd grow up to make the biggest
selling album in the history of recorded music..."

Continues Glen:

"Michael Jackson was a remarkable innovator who
brought together disco and pop: he took white guitar
hard rock and black funk soul and wove them together
into music that was so popular, he broke down barriers.
Before him, MTV didn't play black acts, they thought
their audience was not interested in black music.
Michael Jackson changed all that, with one wave of
that white glove..."

Michael Jackson was never free of controversy - and
I guess that's why there's so much heated debate
about him now.

He may have sold 750 million albums and
had more No. 1 singles than any other male artist - its
the accusations of sexual abuse against him
(plus his later bizarre
physical appearance) that sullied his reputation,
and although he was acquitted of all charges - his
health and reputation never recovered.

To some, Michael Jackson will be a global superstar -
to others, he'll remain an enigma. It may be many years
before the truth about the man will be revealed.
(Or not). The cause of his death is still being investigated,
and its likely to be sometime before the toxicology
reports shed any light on what really happened.

In the meatime, as a poster stated - the circus goes on.

TS Elliot probably summed up Michael Jackson and much of our humanity in Preludes,

" I am moved by fancies that are curled,
Around these images and cling,
The notion of some infinitely gentle,
Some infinitely suffering thing."

There is a price for everything and most of us would not swap the fame,wealth,loneliness,pain and degradation that he endured in the end.It was a whimper and not a bang,unlike the exuberance of the Jackson Five.As a teenager Michael and his family were extremely good looking and talented.It did not have to end this way if Michael had listened to those who knew the reality.

Arjay - great opening post and ideas; I'm enjoying thinking about it -thank you.

I see we're sharing a few Utubes so here's a couple that I like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxpblnsJEWM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1pgqOvLKh4

Anyway one of the things I see happening is a muddled commentary of loathing MJ for his personal quirks, lifestyle and alleged behaviours and assessing his music. People seem unable to separate the two.

I'm not a huge MJ fan, especially of his earlier work, but I am of Thriller and a few other pieces and I can see his genius. His dance, singing, lyrics and visuals are together like a sculpture.

Like Master I find the idea of being glad that someone has died repulsive. If MJ (who was by all accounts a peace loving, if naive, individual) can be the target of such vitriol, how much more hatred could be expressed for someone like Idi Amin ?

If you - whomever - don't/didn't like the guy change the damned channel.

I prefer the sentiments of John Donne, "No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind..."

Thanks to Michael for his gift to the world; RIP Michael.