I am reading "WIRED FOR WAR". It is a book about combat robots. The subtitle is "THE ROBOTICS REVOLUTION AND CONFLICT IN THE 21ST CENTURY". The author is P. W. Singer.

One of the photographs shows two men in a cubicle somewhere Nevada. They are flying an armed UAV somewhere over Iraq or Afghanistan. They have a lorry in their sights. Presumably they are about to release a missile at it. It is not clear whether there are people in the lorry.

One of the UAV pilots is quoted as saying "It's antiseptic. It's not as potent an emotion as being on the battlefield." Another says, "It's like a video game. It can get a little bloodthirsty. But it's f*c*ing cool."

This youtube video shows the sort of thing the two UAV pilots in Nevada may have been doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ-dNu5uOQc

So how does this work? You get to the office at 9 am, coffee in hand. Sit down. Kill a few terrorists. Take the bus home. Kiss your wife. Hug you kids. Watch football.

Presumably it's a 24 /7 operation so, before you leave you hand over to the evening shift. You brief the next guy on what you're doing. Tell him you expect to be ready for the kill shot in about an hour. Next morning, when you get to work you see those terrorists have been killed. You see who or what is on your kill list so far today.

I am not a pacifist. Sometimes you need to go out and kill your enemy or use the last resort which would be to surrender without a fight. And sometimes, in killing your enemy, you kill civilians including women and children.

It's not even as if I have much sympathy for the people being killed in the youtube video. They were themselves prepared to kill and somebody got them first.

But killing from an office does seem bizarre.I wonder what effect it has on the UAV operators. Can they just forget about it when they're off duty?

<“But killing from an office does seem bizarre.I wonder what effect it has on the UAV operators. Can they just forget about it when they're off duty?”>

I think you'll find it's normal most of the killing is controlled from away from the actual fighting. Leaders have always sat on the hill behind the front, in headquarters or overseas and directed the killing. The only difference now is they have more sophisticated and deadly weapons, directly controlled from far away.

If you were in the 8th century, or any century for that matter. You'd probably be asking if they had the right to stand back and fire arrows, burning articles and rocks at each other from a distance, rather than stand and fight. Throughout history, the actions are the same, it's only the methods they use which change. Showing us humanity just goes round and round in ideological circles, only improving it's killing abilities and not an ethical approach or application to life.

More thoughts:

In the past soldiers WENT to war. They were on a battlefield. They knew this was something different from civilian life. There was no confusion between civilian life and killing people in battle.

But this mixes civilian life with battlefield life and death. UAV operators could work from an office block in downtown Melbourne. The guy sitting next to you in the tram may be on his way to kill people.

And what if you kill the wrong people?

Let's face it, the other side is always going to say those 50 people you killed were innocents out on a picnic. Let's also understand that the people you are trying to kill do try and hide among civilians so killing some civilians in war is inevitable.

But sometimes you may, in error, genuinely kill people at a wedding party. What then? Is it just a bad day at the office? Do you go home, kiss your wife, hug your kids and watch some TV just as you do every day?

UAV operators need not even be members of the military. I have a friend who is a keen computer gamer. For medical reasons he could never become a soldier. But he would probably be very good at operating a UAV in a combat zone from an office tower in Melbourne.

Office workers whose job happens to be killing people! Coming to an office near you!

Stormbay,

What's changed is this.

In the past the leaders may have "sat on the hill behind the front, in headquarters or overseas and directed the killing." But they still had to find humans willing to put themselves in harm's way in order to do the killing.

But the way robotics is going the leader of a technologically advanced nation may not need to put many humans in harm's way at all. He can go to war without risking or even materially disrupting the lives of most citizens.

Soon the UAVs may have no operators at all. They'll make their kill decisions autonomously.

And it's not confined to the air. MAARS (Modular Advanced Armed Robotic System) and SWORDS (Special Weapons Observation Reconnaissance Detection System) are to all intents and purposes the pre-cursors of "robo-soldiers".

Are you afraid of snakes? Beware robo-snake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxGnHLIrMnM

Just one more reason to avoid snakes.

The future looks scary.

See also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yliThCy3RxY

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE5q3tklHsw

as many solgers will tell war is 99 percent doing boring stuff..[its also funny to realise 99.999 percent of bullits fired never hit anyone]..war is a funny buisness...but the thing is its a business

its no different from the backroom guys playing war games..[where amoung the details of war are the death statistics..[for things like the d/day landing..[i think its reported that churchhill..reportedly said to his wife one night..tonight 35,000 children/solgers will die..[i think that was the d-day landing..predicted number..of casualties

anyhow its stressfull..[but so is making an atom bomb,..or how you think those fools making phospher bomlets..dropped on palistein/gaza felt..[or those that made the naplam..[that killed 15 million japs in a few weeks..when the yankies bombed japan back into the stone age,..near the end of ww2

war is for fools and cowards..regardless of which side they are murdering for...the only winners are the bankers who paY FOR ALL OF THEM...i was going to talk about robotic snakes...only the latest robot i have heard of desined purely to faciltate murder...but enough of this insanity of war

no one can claim to serve god..[the life-giver..via the murder of any...god alone gave to live...all war is wrong...sadly only/mainly the poor die...its the slums that get bombed

[or in the case of caza the gulag...while the settlers swim in their swimming pools/..the palistinians gets their raw sewrage discharge..flowing out of their gated communities..[settlement's]...

why cant i think of war without thinking of that little state..that claims to be gods people..while murdering others for possesion and despoiling..land given to live on..[not die for]..by the same god..the life giving god is not honoured by murder

Steven while soldiers on the physical front line are not supposed to exercise moral judgement when obeying a command there is an element of judgement that is different when you are in the thick of it as opposed to someone in a position of safety who might be described as a 'passive' participant.

On the frontline there is a human element involved that allows for some degree of moral judgement when it comes to the collateral killing of innocent civilians and children.

For example a group of soldiers tasked to go into a North Vietnamese village would have been able to discriminate easily between children and men with guns so the risk of harm to children was minimised - albeit not perfect in that particular war.

Would carrying out a similar mission from a building in Nevada increase the risk of harm to innocent civilians? I suspect it might in two ways - (1) desensitising the soldier to the effects of the 'game' using what is in effect a video type console and (2) logistically it would be more difficult to isolate innocent civilians if it is not clear where they are located.

That is the whole village could be obliterated instead of hostile targets.

The counter-argument to that might be that if a particular target has been isolated - say a compound (pinpointed via satellite) harbouring terrorist leaders - it may be easier to manage an incursion from afar with minimal risk to 'your side'. The difficulty comes when the target is identified within a civilian area.

Leave the politics to the politicians. "Robotic" warfare is inevitable. Google 'QF4 Target Drones'. They are beginning to convert them as "slave fighters".

If I 'm on a battlefield in a hole in the ground with all manner of munitions going off around me I couldn't care LESS how the enemy dies. Just as long as they do.

There will ALWAYS be soldiers on the ground fighting and dying. No matter the technology backing them. As long as less of ours die I don't care if robots go in with chainsaws. DOn't fight us, and you won't die.

IF people believe pilots in the states flying drones over seas is somehow cowardice?. You need to bail from the debate now. YOu've got NO IDEA.

StG

No I do not consider the use of combat robots cowardice. I consider it smart. To paraphrase a famous general, you do not win by dying for your cause. You win by making the other SOB die for his cause. If it takes a robot to grant a Jihadi his wish to die for his cause without harming others so be it.

But I am worried about the effects combat robots will have on the propensity to go to war in the first place. Wherever possible I prefer to avoid war.

I also do wonder what effects killing as an office job will have on people.

the Taliban rule lands
where there is no other effective policing.
anonymous hits from the sky will strengthen their support.
robot warfare is only effective
when genocide is the intended outcome.

the urge to murder is phycotic..[and phycopaths clearly have no conscience,..it is well recorded that many troops fight under prozac[and other drugs..[desk jockies would be no different

[all it takes it to dope up the nutters and give them a..'rightous'..justification or fear..[ie their sleeping with your wife..[or chucking babies out of incubators or gassing jews or throwing people off bridges]...the boys club that wants war will soon create the spin to weave their proffitable franchise

and there will allways be thoise simple or insane enough to go to war to legally murder nips/gooks/slopheads/towelheads/etc etc...all you as leader gotta do is give them a lable to give them an inhuman aspect[they all wear glasses and have buck teeth]...

their geneticlly infiriour...their after your job..or invading your wasteland of a country..[for some obscure reason...no doudt soon it will be they are global warming deniers,or when obama trains his 2 million/kid global carbon watcch/green troops..

[in the model of hitler youth or the kid armies we seen in the african states..it will because your parents hit you as a kid..[wether you recall it or not..or they dont recycle..,or make you go to bed early..or wont give you your ritalin...or mandated-medication

but hey..when all hell breaKS LOSE..YOU CAN EXPLAIN TO GOD..I WAS ORDERD TO MURDER..or they were on my land..given to my ancestors..[300 generations ago....im sure he will say..oh thats ok then...lol

one under god,
who is going to protect you,
your neighbour or a public servant in Nevada?

whisling in the wind,..mate i protect myself..[i guess its a radical concept]..for people so full of media driven fear..

i guess the question arises..what do i need protection from...bad governance/over policing...global warming lunatic's...children with ipods..[i couldnt care less about obama and his ..'volenteer's'..i mention it only in passing..let the yanks worry about the yanks.

public servents..are about protecting their mates..[i dont expect that to change anytime soon]...im content to let my neighbours do as they please..[and that they let me do as i please]...we've had the runarround..that passes for public service...good fences make good neighbours..anything on my side i do with as i please

apparently a spade works better than a knife..[and a ball pein hammer better than a gun]..i always been a keen gardener..[and love banging nails into wood]...but perhaps im missing your point..[if so please dont concern yourself..the army trained me well]..and what it didnt teach me i picked up from books

Dear Steven,

I guess when you're able to fire from a safe
distance at the push of a button - it makes
warfare more of a game - in the sense that it
becomes less personal - you're not actually
able to experience or see the carnage, as from
a bomber flying high above your designated target.

I remember reading about the men who when they
were confronted with the after effects of
Hiroshima/Nagasaki - when they actually saw
what they had done - the results on them were
devastating.

I fear that our world can become obsessed with
the problem of hatred and aggression, that it will
allow peace to be regarded as soft and weak,
yet our survival depends on its dominance.

Stephen Vincent Benet summed it up well:

"Oh where are you coming from soldier,
gaunt soldier
with weapons beyond any reach of my mind
with weapons so deadly
the world must grow older
and die in its tracks if it does not turn kind."

I also do wonder what effects killing as an office job will have on people.

Posted by stevenlmeyer

Be reasonably similar to the effect any other sort of pilot I'd assume. Just doing their job. That's what they sign up for, that's what they do. Different people react differently to the same situation. Some will lose it, it won't phase others. How does someone in the artillery, mortar crews, gunners on ships, intelligence operatives and various other non-direct contact roles deal with it?.

The reasons that Nazis introduced the Gas Ovens during WW2 as a method of killing was to solve two problems.

1. Efficiency in time and cost and
2. The fear that excessive hands-on activity would "reduce their soldiers into brutes".

They were aware that the many of these men would one day be be going home to their families.

Far easier to press a button (or sign a piece of paper) and not see the effects of your handiwork than to physically kill somebody.

It also allows killing on a much larger scale with little chance of conscience to get in the way.

Much nicer to marvel at the green-screen accuracy of a smart missile hitting its target than to see the red and black mangled aftermath.

War today is nothing like it was in the trenches of the Somme.

That experience actually changed society after that War with the end of rule by inheritance.

The trick nowadays is to keep the images away from the public.

No-one said anything about cowardice only about the effect on moral judgement.

for many war/murder is just a job...few are called to account..but here is one..[quoted extracts from]
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=2773

world/health organasation/un/us...funded and participated..in the final phase..of the implementation of a covert international bioweapons program..involving the pharmaceutical companies Baxter and Novartis..in direct violation of the Biological Weapons Anti-terrorism Act.

Burgermeister’s charges include evidence that Baxter AG,..Austrian subsidiary of Baxter International,..deliberately sent out 72 kilos of live bird flu virus,..supplied by the WHO in the winter of 2009 to 16 laboratories in four counties.

She claims this evidence offers clear proof that the pharmaceutical companies and international government agencies themselves are actively engaged in producing,..developing,..manufacturing and distributing biological agents..classified as the most deadly bioweapons on earth in order to trigger a pandemic and cause mass death.

In her April charges,..she noted that Baxter’s lab in Austria,..one of the supposedly most secure biosecurity labs in the world,..

did not adhere to the most basic and essential steps to keep 72 kilos of a pathogen..classified as a bioweapon..meant to be kept..secure and separate..from all other substances..under stringent biosecurity level regulations,..but..it allowed it..to be mixed with the ordinary human flu virus..and sent from its facilities in Orth in the Donau.

In February, when a staff member at BioTest in the Czech Republic tested the material meant for candidate vaccines on ferrets,..the ferrets died.

This incident was not followed up by any investigation from the WHO..EU,..or Austrian health authorities. There was no investigation of the content of the virus material, and there is no data on the genetic sequence of the virus released.

In answer to parliamentary questions on May 20th,..the Austrian Health Minister,Alois Stoger,revealed that the incident had been handled not as a biosecurity lapse,as it should have been,...but as an offence against the veterinary code...

A veterinary doctor was sent to the lab for a brief inspection.

Burgermeister’s dossier..reveals that the release of the virus was to be an essential step for triggering a pandemic..that would allow the WHO to declare a Level 6 Pandemic.She lists the...

begins and ends at link
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=2773

A few years ago I compiled an anthology of
anti-war Australian poetry as part of my study
of Australian Literature. I tried to present a
powerful collective statement condemning modern
war. As I wrote then, "...when bombs are
referred to as "little boys," missiles are
"peacemakers" and human beings are "soft targets,"
in our media, new ways of thinking and talking about
the nuclear age are desperately needed."

War as a 9 to 5 job?
David Headon points out in, "Imagining The Real,"
"We need new ways of thinking to cope with the
nuclear age. It is here that writers, with their
concern for the human condition and their special
skills with language, can enable us to imagine the
horrific reality of nuclear arms and nerve us to build
an alternative future..."

The Canberra Times wrote back in the 90s,
"...the average person can expect to give up three
or four years of his or her life working to foot
the arms bill, while ever more people suffer from
illiteracy, ill health and chronic hunger..."

Whether we choose to destroy our civilisation or save
is a decision that hopefully may well be made within
our life times. But if more and more nuclear weapons
are built, and if more sophisticated means of
delivering them are devised, and if more and more
nations get control of these vile devices, and war does
indeed become a 9 to 5 job, then surely we risk our
own destruction.

If ways are found to reverse that process, then we can
divert unprecedented energy and resources to the real
problems that face us, including poverty, desease,
overpopulation, injustice, oppression, and the
devastation of our natural environment.

As Maurice Strangard insists:

"...Somewhere there must be a place
Called Little Peace
Where men with little humanity
Do not have the power
To make great decisions.
Where little fears do not lessen
The so small span
Of our lives,
Where
For once
We can know peace.
Just a little.
To know the taste of it."

Islamist are engaged in a full time religious war against the West while we doze away.

Remember this.

Senior military staff, e.g. generals and their staff usually fights the war behind the lines. In a similar fashion so does the politicians.

It is the foot sluggers and the like, who face the real danger and have no choice. Refuse a command on moral grounds might have you shot.

Who really gains? The manufacturers and other industries.

The rest may die or be permanently maimed physically and mentally.

After the war, bureaucrats and politicians fight passionately not to look after or pay some for on pension/compensation.

War is a wasteful exercise and the average person will not gain from it.
I suspect that if the millions and millions of dollars were spent helping your neighbour the world would be a better place. Unfortunately, there are the greedy and the macho ones who like confrontation.

professori_au