Some time back there was a lot of discussion about the 'forgotten australians' here on OLO.

There is article in todays SMH about them and the government is considering making an apology for their treatment. See link below.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/call-for-apology-to-500000-abused-children-20090625-cya1.html

It seems hopefull that all the effort put in by 'huff n puff' and others just may be bearing some fruit.

For their sake, I certainly hope so.

For those interested a copy of "The Forgotten Australians" inquiry is available and I think one has simply to google that to find how to get a copy. It is free.

My wife was in one of those child migrant schemes, and suffered terrible, ongoing abuse after arrival. While not all child migrants were so unlucky, the ones who suffered need their suffering to be finally officially recognised.

Luckily she recovered, and together over many decades we have forged careers as successful pastoralists here in outback Australia.

Surely they were covered by the apology to the Stolen Generation?
After all, it was the same group(children) getting the same treatment at the same time by the same people, so what’s the difference, apart from skin colour?
We’re not being racist are we? You wouldn’t be suggesting that white people deserve a separate apology?

Max,

This is a serious topic. I suspect you know, or care, little about the "actual" subject matter.

Max,
As I understand it, no the 'forgotten australians' was not covered in the PMs apology to the 'Stolen Generation'. At least the ones affected do not believe so, as the apology was specific.

It is ironic that there were some aboriginal kids put in the same instatutions so they too missed out on an apology.

If you have not read the report, please do so, it really is an eye opener. Some of the kids attended the same school as I did and we had no idea of the conditions they endured.

Well, you're wrong M, more than you know, or I care to explain.
My question is serious, and legitimate, and stands, what's the difference?

Max,

The topic is not race specific.

The topic concerns children involved in the the old child migrant schemes and children incarcerated within state run orphanages, children who were subject to religious, govt and other care providers. It "specifically" concerns children ABUSED and NEGLECTED while under this care.

Your post was sarcastic, and displayed a lack of sensitivity and understanding of the issue.

It's a serious issue.

Hey Max, Stolen were aboriginals taken from family and culture.

Forgotten were in institutions with no family generally and culture ignored.

And a lot suffered either way.

Or that was my understanding.

I guess the victims themselves decide which one they belong. It hasn’t stopped though. Maybe the forgotten and stolen could help this generation.

And I reiterate, apart from the source of the kids, what’s the difference?
They were all kids taken from their homes, to “improve” their lives. They were all handled by the same authorities, and suffered the same abuses and neglect, and later the same hard lives.
Everyone seems to ignore the fact that there were a heck of a lot of positive outcomes as well, good lives found, education and careers established that never would have been possible otherwise. Why focus only on the bad ones, look at the whole picture instead.
As for this statement..” Your post was sarcastic, and displayed a lack of sensitivity and understanding of the issue.” I suspect it’s because you don’t like the question, not any lack on my part, so tough.
A: it wasn’t sarcasm, except to you.
B: Care to demonstrate how a legitimate question displays a lack of sensitivity.
C: The same for a lack of understanding?
Or is it simply that I’m failing to be suitably PC on the issue? I’m suffering from “wrong-thinking”? Mustn’t question the established “truth”?
I think perhaps you would do better to expand your horizons, try and see what happened in the context of the time and society it happened in, not some Idealistic”shoulda bin”.
Re-interpreting history is a waste of time, most of the people concerned truly believed they were doing the right thing, and did their best. That it was a disaster is a human failing, and shouldn’t be used in the never-ending “victim/compensation” game so beloved of the Idealists

Every person on this planet can claim victim status. My mother was in an orphanage for 8 years from the age of 3. Never once have I heard her complain or look for an apology. There needs to come a time when people stop wallowing and get on with life. To continue living with a victim mentality is soul destroying. An apology from the Government would do nothing as shown by Mr Rudd's symbolic gesture to our first people. Only a determination to forgive and get on with life will heal wounds.Look at how many of the Jewish people have got on with life after WW2. This sounds hard to some but the sooner people realise that every day is a gift and to sit around moping is a wasted life.

Thanks Max for that post. You have confirmed my suspicion that you have no understanding of the 'actual' topic, and the tragedies involved. "Of course" some care providers (the vast majority) performed their duties appropriately.

You seem to be trying to turn these tragic happenings in young peoples' lives into some rather obnoxious platform for you to make politicised statements based on your political opinions.

The topic is not race specific nor political outlook specific.

The topic is about these neglected children who suffered terribly, and efforts being made to recognise this suffering. Some of the practices and tragedies, especially in the 50's, were horrific.

The topic is about these neglected children who suffered terribly, and efforts being made to recognise this suffering.

Funny, isn’t that EXACTLY what I was talking about, the only difference is, I don’t draw a false line between the races, you do. You’re betraying you’re underlying racism, and shame us all thereby. Even you’re nom de’ plume is a “Freudian slip”, surely?
Like all closet racists, you resort to “playing the man”, abuse replaces discussion.
I haven’t said a word about politics. You haven’t answered a single question.
Discussion is people offering their differing points of view and defending them, which I have done, yet all you can do is try and howl me down with unfounded accusations, typical of the closed-mind approach of racists.
Until people like you confront themselves and deal with their failings, no amount of “apologies” or compensation will make an iota of difference,
“Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them”
Look at the whole history, not just a slice, taken out of context, re-interpreted it in your own narrow way, soley because it suits you’re racist outlook.
I don’t want to see such things happening to ANY children, ever again, but until we grasp the nettle and deal with what actually happened, and put it behind us, there can be no healing, just illusions that satisfy the conscience of the Idealists, and the simplistic-minded.
It will keep happening until we learn. Wouldn’t prevention be better than an apology

Dear Banjo,

Thank You for this thread.

I will be getting a copy of the report.

I hope that huffnpuff (Michael), will at least now
feel some sense of satisfaction.
I wish that I could give him a big hug.

Dear Max,

If you were to google 'Forgotten Australians,'
some of your questions may be answered.

The following website might give you a bit of
a background:

http://www.forgottenaustralians.org.au/who/index.html

The website states:

"The people who identify as Forgotten Australians are
generally now aged from around 40 up. They are survivors
of the roughly 500,000 children who found themselves in
orphanages or homes in the 20th century between approximately
1930's and 1970."

There was widespread emotional, physical and sexual abuse.
The conditions of care were horrenduous.

These problems crossed the entire spectrum of institutional
care, whether administrated by the State, religious bodies,
or other charitable groups.

One of our posters who goes under the name -'huffnpuff,'
(himself a victim), has been working towards some
form of an acknowledgement from the Government - that these
things did occur.

Anyway, do a bit of research - the graphic stories of
neglect, deprivation, sexual abuse - are guaranteed to
move you, as well as give you a better understanding of
how they differ from the Stolen Generation.

Max:"It will keep happening until we learn. Wouldn’t prevention be better than an apology"

Yes. Thank goodness for you. It is happening now, the kids are going back to profit making organisations. The Act got its support.

The Forgotten, The Stolen, and given the feedback these new ones I will call The Ignored.

Do you think the Forgotten would help or the Stolen? Could I convince them to not accept an apology until it has stopped?

Max,
I think you are missing something. The apology to the stolen generation did not cover all kids in all state institutions. If it had covered all it would have been seen as side steping the issue by the aboriginal community. They felt it correct that they receive an exclusive apology.

The claims by the 'forgotten australians' is related to the physical and sexual abuse whilst in the state institutions. This is by government employees and acording to our OLO poster 'huffnpuff' was happening as late as 1978 and maybe after that. It is claimed that this abuse has been covered up by governments and the abused want recognition of the abuse and an apology.

Below is links to the first and 2 other posts by 'huffnpuff' and all his posts are here if one cares to look. What he and others related certainly struck a cord with us other posters and many sent letters to politicians supporting the call for an apology.

You will note his letter writing is not good as, like most in the institutions, his education was poor.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1237&page=0#22143

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6243&page=0#90580

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2593&page=0#58360

Foxy,
I felt it only right to ensure that all on OLO be made aware of the article. It would be nice to think that some efforts by us could help get an acknowledgement from governments and they can move on.

huffnpuff has made 158 comments here alone and I bet hundreds of letters and other representations aimed at getting recognition of the abuse. With a poor education it must have been difficult and i greatly admire his determination. But lets not celebrate just yet. His last post here was only a few days ago so maybe he will see this thread and comment.

One thing I do agree with Max on is that it is vital to prevent it happening again. From what Pied Piper said it does not look real promising in that regard and am sure she is in a position to know. I have known a couple of foster mums and admire their selfless work a lot. Governments these days seem hell bent on privatising everything and giving child care, aged care and all to profit making organisations. Not good.

huffnpuff and Pied Piper may have quite a deal to talk about, as I am sure they both want to prevent it happening again.

Carrying on from where Banjo left off, I am a firm believer in the role of regular independent audits and audit committees.

Will there be more scandals concerning the care of vulnerable children in the future? The answer is a resounding 'yes' and again, the only answer lies in the sort of continuous improvement by providers that is driven by independent audit, formal accreditation, unannounced site visits and so on. The model is there if one goes to (say) the Australian National Audit Office (ANAO) audits of aged care facilities in Australia. See here:
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/ageing-quality-accreditation-review.htm~ageing-quality-accreditation-review-2.htm

An apology is symbolic for victims, however it is concerning that so many remain anchored/stuck in their suffering. Our hearts go out to them and it is hoped that they can get the services they need because it is never too late. Finally being able to access and take benefit from counselling and support services is 1000% better than an apology, but that doesn't imply it is 'either, or'.

Yes, a worthy and timely thread from Banjo.

However, I think that Maximillion has the wrong end of the stick here.

The apology to the 'Stolen Generations' was given because they were children who were removed from their Indigenous parents because they weren't 'full-blood', with the express purpose of assimilating them into 'white' society and breeding out their Aboriginality. Their removal reflected 'white' concerns about miscegenation and the official policy that Aborigines should be allowed to die out.

The 'Forgotten Australians', on the other hand, were non-Indigenous children who were abused in various State, church and other institutions up until the 1970s.

While the nature of the abuse was undoubtedly similarly horrific for the unfortunate victims, the reason for the current push to recognise the suffering of the 'Forgotten Australians' is because their appalling experience wasn't addressed by the 'Bringing Them Home' report, or the belated apology to the 'Stolen Generations'.

The forgotten Australians today number about 13.5 million, according to the last census. What has been forgotten is the perfect way to deliver justice, delivered up to the British, accepted by the British, and freely given to us in Australia, and it is called democracy. The delivery of perfect justice, is a gift from a Jewish man, who inspired four gospels, seventy percent of their contents are concerned with the delivery of justice.

This Jewish man rejected the concept adopted by his ancestors, and delivered on the prophesies made by the prophets who came before him. It was promised that He would bring good government. The English took his teachings to heart, and by virtue of ruling the whole of the British Isles, extended justice throughout. The first cry in Australia was for this perfect justice to be established as soon as possible.

The abuse of 500,000 young people, more or less could only happen because the perfect justice, that should have been in place, was broken down, the power of good men and women diluted and made nugatory, and little kings, who thought they were answerable to no one, created to serve the State by States, whose responsibility most of these children were.

The fault lies in S 116 Constitution. Before it was enacted all Judges and Magistrates and Justices of the Peace, were required to be Protestant Christian. If moral turpitude was detected, the Church could excommunicate the offender, and excommunication meant that their power was gone.

It would not matter so much if Judges and Magistrates were required to be proficient in punctuation, and instead of having to do about two semesters on the Australian Constitution were required to go right into it, its antecedents and history, and the whole pyramid of laws upon which it sits.

The Constitution is framed to deliver perfect justice. It is supposed to be the paramount law in Australia and properly read, using the mandated extrinsic material, necessary for its understanding, the Holy Bible, and the Statutes derived from that Book, supersedes and makes nugatory, an enormous amount of accepted law

The problem with law is it’s a killer. Law and justice are two different things, and the abused little ones, had lots of law but no justice. We in Australia today, have lots of law, but justice is a very scarce commodity, mainly because the Commonwealth is a weak and timid power, prepared to continue to let States as tails wag the Commonwealth dog.

The people the Commonwealth selects to man its law courts, are strong on law, but weak on justice. They have no idea what justice is, but ask them about law, and they go on and on. Every now and again we get a good one, or by luck we get a good decision out of the High Court, but it is almost mandatory for the High Court these days to fail to deliver justice. There is a law that says they can refuse justice, but it is not a court of justice when it uses it.

There should be only one test applied by the High Court, to every case brought to them and that should be, was it decided by a jury trial. If not, go back and do it again, according to law. If done according to law, then justice will be done. The law of the New Testament is the law of justice, the OT law was just that , law. The very idea of a code was anathema to the New Testament.

Should the High Court adopt this suggestion, that they become a Federal Supreme Court as promised in S 71 Constitution, and accept that as the court of the Supreme Being, which is not the Queen, but a higher authority, the three elements of justice, taught as the Trinity, the centrality of Christianity, be adopted by them.

A fully functional Federal Supreme Court would severely cripple the States. The child abuse the States condoned would never have been allowed to continue, if the seven High Court Justices in 1952, had not made it a Court of Law, instead of a court of justice. When Rules deny justice tyranny rules

One of the commandments of Jesus Christ was, at the very end of the Gospel of John, after the first mens breakfast, between the resurrected Jesus, and the disciples on the sea of Galillee, were feed my lambs, and feed my sheep, because He was the Good Shepherd. The machinery to feed the lambs and feed his sheep, was put in place, and a system or hierarchy of divine authority was established to make sure this happened. The Supreme Court as representing the Queen, who was delegate of Almighty God, was the parens patriae, the father of the nation, and its duty was to ensure no children were abused, and no widow starved.

As the Supreme Courts in every State have shut down, and Law Courts have replaced courts of justice, the cases of child abuse have multiplied and increased. The woman crying at the loss of her child to an abusing parent, has nowhere to go, because the High Court is now a heartless monster, created by a heartless and indifferent State, called the Commonwealth.

The magnificent dream, of a fair just and honest society supervised by a Federal Supreme Court was shattered in 1979, and the High Court of Australia Act 1979. As it was made into a corporation, with a CEO it became a private business, and in 1983, requested and got Parliamentary authority, to refuse most work brought to it, by desperate Australians. The Statutory command, there shall be a Federal Supreme Court, in S 71 Constitution, has meant nothing since 1952.

With the head of justice cut off, isolated and neutralized, the States continued to dismantle their courts of justice, and substitute Courts of Law. All nine States are in the act these days. The supposed Guardian, the Commonwealth is a prime offender. It thinks Centrelink will do the job, and most officers there are compassionate, but there is no substitute for a Guardian, to whom injustice can be taken for a remedy. If KR delivers on a promise made to uphold the Constitution, he will read S 77(i) Constitution. Fix the Federal Supreme Court

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2840&page=5

This was from huffnpuff recently.

Through wondering about Australian sites I come upon people in pain because they have had their own children taken or they have suffered like huffnpuff did because of this system.

What has become obvious to me is that their own pain and lack of resolution leaves them trapped within their history and the grief.

It is amazing what an apology or an acceptance or just an acknowledgment from an authority can do to alleviate some of the pain.
But they need to be healed and my experience with people leaves me having to acknowledge that often the broken cannot themselves mend others.

It is a quandary for me, for a government to issue an apology it would be based on the belief that the circumstances that lead to so many damaged peoples has come to an end. The new circumstances that the government in NSW is now implementing will in my opinion have the same result and cause the same damage.

I want these ones to get their apology but I fail to see how an apology can be given while there is no end in sight.

If I was one of the 'Forgotten Australians' I think I'd be really quite offended by a godbothering frootloop like Peter the Babbler utilising my suffering as an excuse to get on his soapbox and try to hijack yet another discussion.

Fortunately, I don't think anybody takes much notice of his raving. Heaven help anybody unfortunate enough to have him as an advocate.

CJ I do believe you have left your sleeping place this morning on the less used side.

I read and read Peters posts, I think he needs someone to translate for him because people like me have the odd epiphany when reading about his Justice stuff but not enough to comprehend in full what is being said.

What I have managed to grasp is that it could really help everybody and because he understands what it could do he is attempting to pass on the knowledge. Threads that are discussing injustice or abuse because of the Laws we have seem to be the appropriate ones for him to make his point.

But yeah I so need a simplified version.

Just as I was typing this I was approached by a small Yet To BE Forgotten One and they are about to lose their very first tooth! Through witnessing much tragedy in these wee lives sometimes I get to be part of something amazing. Okay so I am a bit easily pleased and shouldn’t be going on about it here but hey I’m in the moment and can’t wipe the grin off my face!

Banjo,

I didn't go along with the apology to indigines, so I will not go along with an apology to the UK orphans.

I agree, however, that they seem to have been treated very badly, and it must have been very frighening for them. I have seen some interviewed on TV and I admire them for the way they have managed to rise above their past (while appreciating their hurt, of course).

We should remember that orphans who were already here were often treated dreadfully, too. It seems to have been the way of things then, and we cannot judge history on today's standards.

Piper, the Babbler seems to be claiming that the entire Australian electorate are the "forgotten Australians". In so doing, he totally negates the recognition sought by the victims of institutional abuse who've adopted that title.

It's particularly galling because he's obviously a Christian nutter, and much of the abuse was perpetrated by supposedly Christian institutions in the name of his god.

He's not attemting to pass on knowledge, unless hypocritical, obfuscatory preaching counts as that.

I thought CJ Morgan's explanation to Max was spot on - the Forgotten Australians are trying to get some sunlight because they have not been explicitly acknowledged while other abused groups have. There are probably many other groups and individuals in that basket as well. Eg, Lindsay Tanner - now Federal Finance Minister - recently recounted his days in a boarding school getting belted for having the temerity to read a book after "lights out". I bet he never received an apology either. We've probably all been there. The moral to the story is that abuse can happen to anyone who is not in a position of power and who accidently breaks the rules. It's so easy to fall into especially when we're young.

I don't see Peter the Believer hijacking anything. He is best read as complementing the discussion. They say that the fish rots from the head. If justice was to be set and pursued from the top of society, abusers of all stripes would find it harder to operate in this world. His points are perfectly valid, a bit ahead of their time and peripheral to this particular discussion, but perfectly good all the same. Good point too about the law and justice being two completely different things. There's nothing wrong with dealing with the overall problem by burning the candle at both ends.

leigh,
What I would like to see happen here is that State governments acknowledge both the physical and sexual abuse and apologise for that whether they were pommy orphans brought here or our own kids that sustained abuse while in the care of state or NGO institutions.

The government and the churches were responsible for the welfare of these kids and although times were different much of the abuse was criminal

If there are some perpetrators of the abuse walking around then I would like to see them face a court, the same as those that carried out abuse in NGO schools have.

Pied Piper,
I have read your thread about Woods Recomendations and, never had dealings with DoCS, I am 'ignorant' of what goes on there, but it seems to me that neither the NGOs or government run institutions or organisations have a very good track record. The Forgotten Australians report is damming of both.

Maybe Cornflowers suggestion of the involvement of the Auditor General is the best bet to stop future abuse of the kids. Someone once said 'the price of democracy is eternal vigilance'.

OK, one last shot from me. Sorry for the delay, hit my posting limit.
I appreciate a lot of what people are saying, and their good intentions. But you know the old saying about good intentions.
I didn’t want to go into this, but I can see I’ll have to give a quick overview.
I came from a large happy family, but due to my mothers attempts to help a lot of others, I developed an association with a couple of Lost kids, and was drawn into the horrors of their lives. I dealt with it in my teens, in gaol, and have never let it hold me back. I have lived my life as I saw fit, and raised my kids, alone, using my life, and a rotten father, as inspiration to get it right, and I truly believe I did. My kids tell me so, and that’s good enough for me. I have spent decades volunteering, helping others, because I could. My best mate here is a Stolen kid, but he’s like me, has worked out his own life and succeeded with it, we have bonded, as true Aussie mates, that’s all I can say. Cont’.

Cont’.
The point I’ve been trying to make all along is that it IS all the same thing, and yet, wait, there’s more!
Why, with all the knowledge of hindsight and our “wisdom” on such matters, is it still happening now?
Because we haven’t looked at the root of the problem, the real problem.
Think of it as a black diamond, ‘cos it’s sure hard enough, .Stolen is one facet, the Lost another, disabled child services another, kids born with mental problems still another.
Our culture has evolved away from a single set of social rules, change and individuality rule in this Global Village. We developed a certain mindset some time last century and tried all sorts of things with the children, and most were a failure or only partially successful at best. We need to focus on that mindset, figure out some basic principles of dealing with kids and their problems, ways of ensuring total openness and honesty, with the welfare of the whole child as its primary goal.
It won’t be easy, and I can’t imagine how we could convince society to make the effort required, gov’ or private citizens, yet until we do, and face our own fears and prejudices in the process, we will always have children suffering in our midst.
We have achieved so much, it’s time to bring ALL the children into the light!

Maxi

I think sometimes people (myself included) misunderstand you - you can appear aggressive and dogmatic sometimes. This time, however, you have made yourself abundantly clear - clear as a diamond. Yes, how we treat the vulnerable, our children, irrespective of race or culture, is the foundation for our well being as a community and whether or not we can call ourselves civilised.

I do believe, however, that we need to acknowledge where we have gone wrong and an apology is a good start. I admit it is only a start and not worth anything if we don't follow through and love and teach our children well.

Have a good week end.

I don’t know where we would be without hypocritical, obfuscatory preaching, no one would open anymore threads CJ! And yes I had to go look up that O word. Means nitpick so there.

RobP, I didn’t think the people that sent their kids off to boarding school would consider their children members of The Forgotten.

I thought these were kids in institutions without family.

“The moral to the story is that abuse can happen to anyone who is not in a position of power and who accidently breaks the rules.”

I think it was the level of abuse endured and the level of helplessness and that whether rules were broken or not and accidental or not they were not cared for or protected and had no one to defend them as children. Not being defended is the worst when young and powerless.

Yep sounds like fostering in 2009 but Fractelle is right I guess, an apology is a start.

Thanks Fractelle, I know I sometimes don't express myself clearly, I'm still learning, please bear with me.
I've found this forum to be an excellent way to do so, and the posters here challenging, which was exactly what I'd hoped for!I'm growing even as I type, and LOVING it!
Nyah Hah Hah, the ol' "learn as you go" caper, works every time!
The day I stop growing, you can bury me!

Hi All,

The plight of the forgotten or stolen generation of Australians.
Consider the following. Not only our indigenous people suffered (and their cases are very real). Due to the culture of the time, those of English and other nationalities descent also suffered.
Christianity considered it a “sin” for a child to be born out of wedlock. Pregnant girls were forced to give up the baby. They were not given the right to keep it. Sometimes they were thrown out on the street.
Parents considered the girl had shamed and embarrassed them. While the girl had committed a “sin”, the male got off scot-free. Society accepted the male was “just sewing a few wild oats”.
Today we continue disregarding the rights of many Australians. As a community advocate I see many of the problems created by an Australian parliamentary, legal and DHS system that appears to perpetuate this culture.
E.g. Unlike Britain and some European countries where the rights and welfare of the child take precedence Australia appears more concerned with protecting the rights of the parents. In Australia, the rights of the child have a lower priority.
Marriage breakdown is accepted by society rather than encouraging people to work at their marriages, even it means working on some compromises. The acceptance here is domestic violence. Where the breakdown involves violence, the children become the “meat in the sandwich”, continuing to suffer via the parental right to access.
Where marriages break up is a result of domestic violence and the children want to stay only with the nurturing and protective parent, courts frequently allow access on the basis that the children are too young to understand. This may not change until e.g. the child reaches around 10 years old. A child can suffer abuse for many years and may suffer a lifetime of emotional problems. By this definition an intellectually disabled child, might never reach an age of comprehension.
Complaints made by a child, unless witnessed by an adult, are likely to be treated as hearsay.
I could go on and write a book.
Regards
professori_au

The Pied Piper,

"RobP, I didn’t think the people that sent their kids off to boarding school would consider their children members of The Forgotten."

They probably don't consider it so, but I was trying to widen things a little by pointing to the fact that anyone who was abused and who never received true healing, an apology or the opportunity to speak out freely about their experience is to some degree a Forgotten Australian. The example I gave above pales against what was done to the British orphans that were sent to Australia of course and the amount of healing they need is much greater than those that were given the cane at boarding school for instance.

I was also trying to find a segue way towards connecting CJ's to PtB's comments which isn't easy because they are a long way apart. The connection, in the context of this discussion, is that if justice is anchored high up in the societal hierarchy, it will be much easier to get an atonement and true healing for the victims.

Many children have been abused over the years in institutions. I think in the case of the Forgotten Children there is an element of complete lack of duty of care on the part of both the British and Australian governments of that time. British child migrants, mostly orphans, taken without accountability to any member of their family and forced to help populate the British colony of Australia.

Some of these children were told their parents were dead when in actuality they were alive but considered unable to care for their families due to poverty, imprisonment or just being born on the wrong side of the tracks. The parents were also told their children had died. This is an abominable betrayal of trust.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/eastmidlands/series9/week_nine.shtml

I think the Forgotten Children case warrants special consideration and an apology may help many of them move on.

All child abuse is abhorrent and the suggestions above of greater scrutiny and oversight by an Audit body is worth pursuing to ensure it never happens again.

I think we have come some way in ensuring those professions that deal with children have no criminal convictions to child related offences but it could go further to ensure that children are not left alone with an adult for any length of time.

The same rule could apply to priests, scout leaders and anyone who has charge of children, although I can see how this could become a frustrating bureaucratic requirement.

Pelican: “I think we have come some way in ensuring those professions that deal with children have no criminal convictions to child related offences but it could go further to ensure that children are not left alone with an adult for any length of time.”

The most vulnerable group of children in our society now would have to be the foster children. They are the ones being left with adults for years at a time. After initial checks there is very little monitoring of what sort of situation they are in. It is usual for Short Term foster children (in care until court decides they go to long term carers or back to parents) regularly to see their parents so there is probably more chance of it being noticed if a child was not being treated well.

But the Long Term foster kids can have very few and far between access to anyone else.

With the governments backing of the Wood Recommendations I’d suggest they start working immediately on a pre-apology for these Ignored ones. No voice no vote no value.

Proff:” Complaints made by a child, unless witnessed by an adult, are likely to be treated as hearsay.”

Similar to complaints against NGO’s. Handled internally and no one goes to “eyeball” the actual children because “oh they ( NGO’s) have their own psychologists etc to sort it out”. If DoCS wont help the child/ren they placed in care I have no idea who is supposed to.

Rob: “…is that if justice is anchored high up in the societal hierarchy, it will be much easier to get an atonement and true healing for the victims.”

You lost me there.

Pied Piper and Others.

Hi All,

Earlier I spoke as a Community Advocate. However, I will speak now from personal experience in support of what I write.
Growing up in an orphanage at a time when children in them were treated as no more than objects. Although at this point, I will state that not all of the people in the orphanages were bad people. On the contrary, their were many who were compassionate, however, my experience was it was those in position of power who often abused the children.
I was a victim of the bullying and brutality practiced by those who were supposed to look after us.

Preaching Christianity on one hand, the children were treated as little cheap labour or objects without rights.

Because I refused to be cowed I often received a greater amount of beltings for standing up for myself.

One thing I remember was when I was belted I would refuse to cry and sometimes would ask “have you finished now”?

In hindsight it was not the wisest thing to say when you have no support or protection , but while I was being belted my defence was to “turn off” so that they could not reach me.

Children complaining to parents visiting them were severely punished to discourage “tale telling”. One punishment, after the initial belting, was to stand on a brick path for 2-3 months in silence.
As a result, I have a dislike of bullying in any form, whether by adults, governments or corporations and willingly have acted as an advocate on behalf of those less able to stand up for themselves.

professori_au

continued

Comment:

My wife, ( a real life Pollyanna) accused me of having a Pollyanna streak, refusing to give in to adversity and to turn negatives around and developing positives from my experiences. I educated myself, bought land on the Murray irrigation, turning it into a farm.

At the same time I studied farming practices, engineering and manufacturing. Later worked as a consultant in private enterprise and government.

While there is no doubt my orphanage experience has left its mark on me, generally I have been able to put it aside and move on.

My wife and I took in young people with problems from broken homes, drugs and alcohol and just problems growing up. We were Mum and Dad to them and one of the nicest things one young lad said was “The best thing I remember Dad was that you and Mum were a always avaialbe to us, even when you were busy in the business”.

professori_au

Proff: “ Children complaining to parents visiting them were severely punished to discourage “tale telling”. One punishment, after the initial belting, was to stand on a brick path for 2-3 months in silence.”

That is what I was really worried about, whether or not these kids would think to tell family while on visits. Another problem is “crying wolf” and this comes from the parents, they are obviously hurt and grieving and very sensitive so complaint after complaint can go back to the caseworkers after visits about hair styles, choice of clothing and every single little scratch on them.

I understand this but the parents themselves can often make it worse for the other children in care as the caseworkers receive regular complaints after an access visit.

A Pollyanna streak may be nature overcoming nurture (or lack of)? Imagine one of the mean adults you remember, now put them in a house with just one or two children to focus on.

I understand your stance on bullying, I can tolerate a lot but not bullying. My interactions with a local NGO (LWB) made me think of a large greedy bully, even bullying DoCS. When I saw that happen it occurred to me how unsafe all the children were. Then I found out about Justice Wood and his report to give all the children to NGO’s I think panic set it. But it is a weird situation, I defend DoCS and in the meantime DoCS are not happy at me for defending children against an NGO.

But Proff no one can advocate for the children and no one does. They are kept away from the public. There are some bad people, some callous people and some people for whom it is just about the money fostering the young Aussies. Far as I can see all the good ones who care and do their best will not make up for the kiddies suffering because of this government.

Will you accept an apology at this stage?

Maybe a thank you is also in order to the Forgotten that did not continue the cycle.

Hey Whistler, I view it as an Act of attempted cultural genocide I think. Nah I don’t, I’m an immigrant and they could train me about the aboriginal heritage and basic culture so the children keep their family identity intact. But then they could teach all school children here that one.

I don’t know how successful the drive is for aboriginal carers or how much aboriginal blood one is required to have. Even little kids in foster care with a smidgeon have to be viewed a different way in the department and a different act or a different part of the act followed.

What advantage did it give the government to create legislation that furthers a segregation of the aboriginal peoples?

Now one of my maybe stupid questions… is Rudd better – will he do better for the aboriginals? Or all the children? Does this government prefer privatizing things? They will pay more for this.

I know one home for young mums that charges DOCS for the mums to stay - or not (funding for beds whether full or not). The NGO also gets funding from other orgs being a “charity”. Then they charge the young mums rent and require them to buy all their own food and clothing out of their single mother pensions. I think they charge for daycare they provide as well while the mums go to school. What sort of government thinks this is okay?

I hope this talk of The Forgotten ones does bring the plight of the foster children now more in to the open.

Good morning Romany. Thank you I am pleased the questions don’t bug you because I start feeling quite guilty at times asking about an issue because I couldn’t find an answer in google. I don’t see many questions being asked here. Maybe Graham should have new OLO users pass a test first.[smile]

Pied Piper,
A while back I suggested that you start a thread about problem kids. This thread has shown that posters do want to talk about kids and I think you have a wealth of experience that you could pass on about dealing with behavioural issues, etc.

Some time back there was a thread here rising from a media article about a school nurse taking a 14 year old girl to a GP and her getting the 'pill' without the knowlrdge of the girls parents. That attracted a lot of discussion and opinions.

Hope you think about it.

Or, maybe your experience could be put into a book?

Nah we had a thread from Max I think about to smack or not. That didn’t really go beyond the opinion that if one did not smack they must use other emotionally abusive forms of control.

Then we had my thread about the Wood Recommendation which is about a NSW’s latest major contribution to further the abuse of vulnerable children. Really not much interest there because the kids can’t register and tell you about it themselves.

Then here in The Forgotten where we are talking about a sad history and an apology from the country that allowed it.

It’s just me wafting in and out everywhere generally being annoying doing a bleat now and again and about children here and now who need help, real help and immediate real help. Now if I can push for DoCS to be the ones that monitor the NGO’s and not allow the NGO’s to monitor themselves I will be happier but this monitoring must be physical, no skimming over paper work the NGO’s have sent. It becomes a bit depressing fighting for this countries children and hiding the fact in letters to agencies that I haven’t been here long.

I put a letter recently from the Ombudsman’s office in the Wood Recommendation thread, I’ve read it a few times but don’t understand what it is saying to me. I think the feeling I get from it could be translated in to “shuddup and no there is no reason for our existence”.

Wow 14 year old on the pill.[smile] I get 14 year old girls with babies in tow coming to stay with me.

I don’t deal with behavioral issues, I flatly refuse there very existence and they die out like the common cold.

Do you know what? I waver back and forth on this but if I am honest I want the Forgotten to say

“No we will not accept anything until children become a priority and the abuse of Australian state wards has ended”.

I want them to shove any suggestion of Sorry right up the governments recommendation supporting tube.

WE ARE THE FORGOTTEN AUSTRALIANS NO MATTER WHO WE ARE IN EVER STATE AND TERRIOTIRIES UNTIL WE GET JUSTICE FROM OUR PRIME MINISTER AND THE COURTS OF AUSTRALIA
WE ALL KNOW WHAT WE HAD SUFFERED AND SO DOES THE GOVERMENT AND THOSE WHO DID THESE CRIMES AGAINST US
WE ALL HAVE HAD DIFFRENT UP BRINGINGS AFTER WHAT HAD HAPPEND TO US VICTIMS
I ONLY WISH THE HELL THE GOVERMENT WOULD STOP THE COVER UP AND CORUPTION OF US VICTIMS
TO ALL OUT THEIR SORRY I WAS RAPED AS A CHILD AND USED FOR PLEASURE BY THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERMENT
THEY DESTROY OUR PROOF AND AND STILL DENY US JUSTICE
MR RUDD WE NEED OUR COUNTRY TO STAND UP AND YOU ARE THE BOSS,

MR RUDD.
WE ARE REAL PEOPLE
HUFFNPUFF

hi to all the forgotten australian victims ,
like me

sorry i haven't wrote as ive been sick

posted last night

didn't know how to really express myself still having difficulties
taking it all in

the senate has done some recomendations ,but not all of them

us victims are still just bits of paper on record and hidden under the carpet

yes some acknowledge us in parliament of the senate but not all of them which is sad

every member of the australian goverment in parliament know about us victims

yet their is only a few who surport us

maybe after all the politions see he media confrence in its full from the caberra senate

they will really know how we victims suffered

i thank all for their surport of us and sorry we have to still fight for our justice

its was so nice meeting all at canberra ,

we are the goverments victims and always will be until we get justice

regards huffnpuff

still emotionally effected

well i guess i get straight to the point

suicide is an option,but before that happens

i will be taken out as many of the pedophiles who abused us

if i survive well gaol will be my place , least i know evryone knows why suicide or gaol happend ,

time sometimes feel closer and closer ,

this will be my ever last post here on olo , so all of you who know the truth about us victims , thank you for your surport as for all the none beleavers

well i hope you all sercum to yourselves ,

and if something like this happens to people you know . then you will know exactly what it will feel like

justice is their is none for us forgotten australians of institutional abuse in state care of australia ,

no because we are and still are the goverments hidden dirty secret of what happend to us ,

so to all the victims still living and to those who are no longer with us i will remeber you all and hope you will do the same for me

take care evryone . and special thanks to foxy for helping me get this very first topic ever started as it was not wanted to be spoken about here just like our goverment of australia don't want to addmitt to the truth of us victims and the court sytem covers up for the states just as the australian goverment does as do the police one more dead forgotten australian will not be missed one less person they know that won't be here to fight for justice . just like all those who have passed away that we also fight for

regards huffnpuff

No Michael how bloody infantile.

IF we know people it has happened to? Do you read? IT IS STILL HAPPENING? YOU SUICIDAL DRONGO!

How dare you just waffle off with your sad damaged speech about taking others out who abused you.

Oh my god, if you want to help others help the children who are living what you did. At least help one child before going quietly in to the night with your hidden dirty secret in tow.

Know people? You self focused fool, maybe you should have been in my house the last few years meeting the other little huffnpuffs the government have in the making in this country.

But hey, if you’re finished with this world then Peace Out dude.

Well the recent publicity and activities in Canberra don't seem to have done much for huffnpuff. One can only hope that he'd had a couple too many when he wrote that last post, and is currently sleeping it off.

The Pied Piper

You seemed to question whether children know to complain to parents when they are ill-treated.

I will answer it this way.
New boys (I was in a boy's orphanage) not knowing the system would complain.
They quickly learnt what would happen when they did and no longer complained.

Too often parents were guilty of ignoring complaints, assuming these "good people" would not ill-treat children. They are church people, serving God so would not lies, etc. Yeah!! Read what has come to fore over the past few years and believe it.

Older boys who had been there for a longer time would no longer complain, knowing it was useless and painful.

I remember my first day at the orphanage. I had travelled down from the far north by steam train and as a young 8 year old was”knackered.
When left at the orphanage I was given the task called early, early getups. They were the children who got up to prepare breakfast.
The next ones went on early getups and they set the dining room for breakfast.
Then there were the normal getups. These children got ready for breakfast and commenced their normal duties of cleaning, making beds, etc.
Unfortunately, for me, I slept right through until normal getups. When the matron saw me, she wanted to know why I was not on duty. I stared at her, not knowing what she was on about. She told me to go to her office and I was belted on the back of the hand with a piece of butter box. My hands swelled up and started to bleed. When she saw what had happened to my hands, she took me to the kitchen where she applied butter to "soothe" them.

continued

Pied Piper
Continued.

In the orphanage 1939-1945, I worked as a duty boy and ultimately a head duty boy (approx 8 year old). It was not paid work either.
Your job was to supervise the other duty boys. If their work was considered unsatisfactory, you received a hiding as well as the duty boy.

I was also responsible for the care of two boys in iron crosses because of polio and rheumatic fever.
Another, a five year-old who had cancer. A further one was a three year old who could not sit up and had to be fed, washed and clothing changed.

They were my personal duties, separate from that as head duty boy.

Time off, I was often sent to the gardens to work, especially the vegetable garden.

It was little wonder I was a loner, keeping to myself.

In a boys orphanage you did not have contact with those "strange people" and I was easily embarrassed when one addressed me. I did not know what to say.

Whether I would accept an apology. A difficult question.
I guess it depends on whether the apology was a genuine one or merely an apology made because it was politically correct. This is one problem facing the stolen generations.
I know cases where an apology was offered along with a token "payment without prejudice". If the offer was unacceptable, then it went to court and perhaps a wait of years before justice. This then begs the sincerity of the apology. The value of compensation did not depend on the fact that you had been mistreated. If you were strong then the offer was less. The offer for brutality was less than those sexually abused.
I remember the people and the treatment I received as if it was yesterday.
I have heard people who have no comprehension say, “Get on with it. It is in the past”.
While I realise we need to start somewhere, I am pointing out the issues that need to be addressed. This will not be easy to understand by those who have never experienced the treatment.

Professori_au

Hey Professori, it was all horrible and I imagine as a child you couldn’t see an end to it. These adults around you, do you think they got stuck somewhere, were always mean or just never stopped to think about what they were doing...I really worry about how cultures build up in an organizations. That matron stopped and had a think or felt guilt aye and obviously it really affected you how she could do that and then try and make it better. You having to look after sick and dying kids/toddlers is heartbreaking.

On another site yesterday a message came up from a parent whose child had been physically hurt in care. For the child the damage must go so beyond the physical as that feeling of being undefended would make any hurt so much worse. Messages from the parents of children in foster care being hurt is common and even if mum or dad listens, is outraged and complains they are often ignored. I had a young mum recently who e-mailed me in a panic with her baby having bruises and the older children telling her what the foster mum was doing. She was ignored until the daycare worker complained. This government still wont listen.

If a foster parent complains about a child not being treated well or a child in distress we are completely disregarded. We have no voice and no rights and are not allowed to publicly (and specifically) complain.

I wouldn’t accept an apology, how could it be heartfelt or sincere. An acknowledgement with compensation would be one decent thing the government could do. HuffnPuff said all the records are gone and that the proof of you all being in these places has been misplaced or destroyed? Is there a register of you all? How does “sorry” work, they just do it whether you want it or not?

Max I hope Huff was well in his cups, I get to see little children in state care that are not being well cared for, this system ignores it still and Huff was being a complete dropkick.

sorry for my out burst here yesterday but i had been very emotionial about a lot of things

some days are diffrent to others

pied piper

your coments are fair and i shouldn't dwell on myself and keep going forward and continue the fight for all

you don't relize that i have every document that i submitted to the supreme court and yes even that of my own dealings with the law , ive not hidden no secrets of my past from the courts ,

the crown lawyers for the state of new south wales stated last year in front of three judges these , log books of records such as isolation cell records log books , excursion log book records . misconduct record log books , were destroyed or lost or misplaced ,
how convienate

i the victim that has been fighting the new south wales goverment for ten years for justice

the state lawyers say in front of the judges the records are gone why destroy them if the goverment had nothing to hide

the thing is we are all fighting for what we suffered and it does eat at you, some people are diffrent as to how they can handle things others not so well

im sorry to have upset anyone here on olo and anyone in canberra on 25th june at parliament house

and no i did not have any drink or druks in me when i wrote here in the last few days as i have been a non drinker for a long time or drug user

their is a lot of diffrence from a smack,

to being bashed hit over the head raped and abused and been made a slave by the state institutions of australia we victims were in

it is hard for a lot of us i will put another post here in a minute where you can watch the media confrence at canberra 25/06/2009

that way you will see and hear our hurt
huffnpuff

please all have a read and watch these then you all will know how hurt victims can be when justice is being covered up , why do you all think the stolen generation had their out rage

regards huffnpuff

Apology ordered for 'forgotten' Australians
Email to friend Print Enlarge text 25 June 2009 | 08:10:06 PM | Source: Ben Fajzullin, SBS and AFP

Hundreds of thousands of children were subjected to abuse while in institutional care, according to a parliamentary report. (SBS)
The federal government should apologise to children who were abused and assaulted in institutional care, a parliamentary report recommends.

Outrage from 'forgotten Australians'

The Lost Innocents and Forgotten Australians Revisited report tracked the progress of the recommendations of a 2004 report, Forgotten Australians, and the 2001 report Lost Innocents.
Those reports documented hundreds of disturbing accounts of child abuse and neglect of children, many indigenous, in out-of-home care.
The new report recommends the government apologise to the victims, as previously recommended in Forgotten Australians.
The government should request apologies and redress from relevant church and religious agencies, which it said showed "a lack of proper acknowledgement of the issues raised" in the original reports.
The government should also provide further financial support for former child migrants to re-establish family connections, the report said.
Around 100 people who were in the public galleries clapped and cried as the report was handed down.


'Forgotten children' remembered
Source: ABC News
Published: Monday, June 29, 2009 8:41 AEST (Stateline

I am relived you are still with us Huff hon.

You do need to know that staying around is important, the message is getting through after all this time and Australia cannot lose anymore Forgotten Ones. I think the children need you all too.

I’m not talking “smacks” but small lives in misery. Unprotected, undefended, uncared for and unnoticed. These days the privacy laws keep the children hidden and there is still no process in place or authority that can step in and help once they become state wards.
The money involved is huge so I am rapidly seeing why I wont be heard or be able to make a change for all my ranting.

I hope you get Justice which I understand is far different from an apology.

But you must stay and add your voice for the ones gone, and to those standing beside you. Please don’t forget the little ones following.

huffnpuff,
Sorry to hear you have been unwell. Trust that you will be back to your old self quickly. I was hoping you would see this thread and comment, but I have missed it for a couple of days.

Let me tell you that you are winning. It will take time but keep at it.

Maybe it is time I reminded some of those polys again and I'll do that tonight. I know a lot here on OLO wrote to them earlier, but jeeees they are thick and need constant proding.

When the recognition and apology comes to fruition, I will go to Canberra to listen and cheer, not for the polys , but for you.

And also to Sydney when the same happens there. I hate that place, but I'll go for your day.

I reckon the 'forgotten australians' have far more support than you realise. Best Regards.

The financial assets, including homes and no doubt generous pension funds of the politicians, civil servants and advisers responsible for these policies of institutional abuse should confiscated and used to compensate victims.

Howard comfortable he didn't 'say sorry'
Kim Christian | 6th July 2009

Print larger | smaller JOHN Howard says he is still comfortable with his decision not to apologise to the stolen generation, while defending his government's "paternalistic" indigenous policies.

In a broad ranging interview, the former prime minister declined to speak in detail about Liberal leader Malcolm Turnbull's handling of the OzCar affair and said politicians should feel free to express their faith in public life.

He never doubted major decisions he made as prime minister and said he had no regrets over his handling of the stolen generation issue.

"No, I took the view that it's very easy for the current generation to apologise for mistakes of an earlier generation, and because it's so easy to do that I think it's meaningless," Mr Howard told Macquarie radio.

"I think that what really matters is what we do to close the gap.

"The report on which the request for the apology was based was not a very scientifically compiled report."

He said he "felt sorry" that indigenous Australians were unjustly taken from their families.

"But I always regarded the idea of an apology as being a piece of symbolism that couldn't possibly match genuine, practical measures."

He also denied this view had driven the Northern Territory intervention.

"It really had nothing to do with the intervention," he said.

The intervention was based on a very strong belief I and my government had that we really needed to overturn 30 years of failed policies."

The policies of "separate development" undertaken by both liberal and labor governments had "failed completely," he said.

"If it's necessary to have some, what people would call, paternalistic measures such as prohibitions of alcohol and pornography and the quarantining of welfare payments, if it's necessary to have those things in order to protect children and to protect the lives of children you've got to do it."

Despite the Rudd government's apology he said the best hope for indigenous Australians was to give them "access to the benefits of the mainstream of our society".

"You can do that whilst respecting their place as the first Australians and respecting their traditional values."

Mr Howard was careful not to criticise embattled liberal leader Malcolm Turnbull's recent handling of the OzCar affair.

"I think he's had a difficult time and what really matters is how a man reacts or a woman reacts to adversity, and if he comes out of it with resilience and determination, which I'm sure he will, he will have learnt by the experience.

"I'm not going to be a commentator on Malcolm's performance.

"I'm a supporter of the Liberal Party. I want to see the Liberal Party prosper and succeed and I'll always do everything I can to help the leader of the party."

He confirmed he was writing a book and said he never doubted the major decisions he took while holding the nation's highest office.

"No, not the big ones, no I didn't," he said.

"It never does in politics to ruminate after you've taken a decision.

"All the big decisions I took in government, if I had my time again, I would do again. I don't regret any of the big decisions I took in government."

"All the big decisions I took in government, if I had my time again, I would do again. I don't regret any of the big decisions I took in government."

Mr Howard also bought into a recent religious debate, saying he did not have a problem with public policy being shaped by a politician's faith.

"Individuals who are influenced by faith and religious values ought to feel completely free to carry them forward into their public life and they should," he said.

"I don't think people in public life should be reluctant to talk about their religious values."

i would like you all to know howard has taken some of my own text , as this this the first time he has ever stated it was both liberal and labour , yet i have been stating this for over many years , read up on my post and other stories i have wrote

so mr john howard puts a story into the paper the examiner also other newspapers saying he would not say sorry, to the stolen generation or other victims ,

then states it was both liberal and labour who were responable ,

i have stated that for many years and now john howard has quoted from my own text on this issue where i have stated on many occassions that it was both liberal and labour , that we victims the forgotten australians suffered abuse in state care as those of the stolen generation ,

so why has howard taken this step to to quote HUFFNPFF'S own words ,

and still tells his liberal party not to apologize to us victims ,

aye you are not in power howard , and to minipulate the liberals to not say sorry is a digraces from your self