The Pearl Harbor attack highlighted the US need for important information to reach their State and Defense Departments.

Unfortunately that legitimate need was subverted after WW-II when Truman perpetuated war-time OSS sabotage operations by incorporating those into the proposed central intelligence agency. Instead of an Agency which helps the US government Departments (Defense and State) with confidential reports of what is happening overseas, the CIA was subverted into a keeper of secrets and its own clandestine plots irrespective of better sense that the professionals in the State and Defense Departments might have. To make it worse in 1950 Truman endorsed National Security Council Paper 68 claiming the US could sustain economic growth and employment by emphasis on the military security spheres instead of domestic demands.

International affairs including Australian have been affected by the United States CIA and NSC. An example was the 1962 appointment of McGeorge Bundy over the NSC which advised Kennedy that West Papua had to be sacrificed to buy Sukarno's friendship which produced the 1962 New York Agreement trading the colony to Indonesian control; which has not bee a success in promoting regional welfare.

President Obama appears to be the best hope in over fifty years for reform of these two advisers to the American Presidents.

The idea of implementing covert clandestine schemes during peace time should be exceptional, and should not be a routine operation of the CIA. The information the CIA gathers should be made confidentially available to the US Departments that need that information - no doubt the US public would have appreciated if their FBI had been told that twenty terrorists had come into their country for flying lessons.

I think it is time the United States put away its childish toys and began adult discussions, yes they like us as entitled to gather information, but neither are entitled to conduct sabotage in other nations unless we have declared war.

This is a message I hope we can help bring to the attention of the Obama administration.

Daeron said:

"I think it is time the United States put away its childish toys and began adult discussions, yes they like us as entitled to gather information, but neither are entitled to conduct sabotage in other nations unless we have declared war."

COMMENT:
I think you are a little naive about how the world works. (and human beings)
Here is how it really works.

1/ You have RULE OF LAW for the benefit of the Elite Oligarchy who actually run the show. They need this sense of predictability so they can continue to exploit the countries resources.

2/ All countries have elites which seek to devour the resources and power of others.

3/ Point 2 is not very clearly visible most of the time.

4/ Becuase of the need to 'look' like we hold certain values high.. there must be a 'secret dirty tricks' group under our control who can do the dirty work of eliminating threats which otherwise cannot be eliminated by the normal processes of the rule of law.

5/ Spies are neccesary.

6/ Point 5.. "spies" will unearth certain things which are to our detriment which cannot be disclosed broadly for a variety of reasons incuding national security.

Now.. the dirty tricks department of Israel, to use an example 'apparently' rid the world of the despicable Imad Mugniyah -arch terrorist.
They are yet to deal with Ismael Haniya, Mahmoud Zaha and a host of lesser figures in HAMAS..but they will in due course.

The Americans will/should have people looking to exterminate all those at the head of the movement to take Pakistan for radical Islam, because if the likes of Al Qaeda got hold of Nuclear technology it's a matter only of *when* not *if* a blast wipes out a big chunk of America.

DAERON.. r u a socialist internationalist, a marxist? Do you believe in one world government? If so..which political 'flavor' should it have?

Agreed daeron.

A friend recently recommended the book 'Nemesis' by ex CIA analyst Chalmers Johnson. I haven't read it yet, only the reviews, which suggests it will be an interesting read, and is very much in line with what you have outlined in the opening post.

A bit more information was found at the link below:

http://www.democracynow.org/2007/2/27/chalmers_johnson_nemesis_the_last_days

For the US to establish and maintain some integrity on the world stage, and with the change of government this is an ideal time for the new President to put a broom through the interventionist (economic or overt) policies of the past.

To quote from the site linked above: "Invariably, remember what this means. Imperialism is a form of tyranny. It never rules through consent of the governed. It doesn’t ask for the consent of the governed. We talk about the spread of democracy, but we’re talking about the spread of democracy at the point of an assault rifle. That’s a contradiction in terms. It doesn’t work. Any self-respecting person being democratized in this manner starts thinking of retaliation. Nemesis becomes appropriate."

I recall, for all its secrecy and all its resources, the CIA did not pickup the USSR was going to implode…

Far from being concerned with their clandestine activities, I suspect the only reason they know where their backsides are is by sense of smell…

But I would agree, all government agencies including, the security services, should be put under the microscope in review of their purpose, their cost and their contribution / benefit.

And Obama might do worse than to learn from one Republican, Ronald Reagan, who actively pursued a policy of “small government”, rather than the interventionist / interfering strategies and dubious edifice building projects, so popular among those who want to be “remembered”, more than they want to serve.

Plucky Pelican... are you seriously suggesting that the USA is the only country in the world with a dirty tricks black ops department?

Seriously.. are u?

Can you please name a country which does *not* have one?

Can you then explain how you are *sure* this is the case?

Do you have faith in the dictatorships and tryants of this world to 'be nice' but no faith in the USA to be so?

Given the diabolical nature of the Tyrant and Dictator.. don't you think it might be reasonable to have a bit of a crew which can deal with any serious threat in a timely manner?

Let's say Dictator 'X' is planning to send a nuclear device into the USA...you know about it...but 'proving' it would be difficult...specially when you know that there is a legion of leftwing lawyers who live in the twighlight zone where such things simply 'cannot' happen.....

Would you try to extradite the dictator?.. Let's say that head of state is Ahmadinajad?

I seriously think many of you would be more productive playing with leggo's than dealing in the real world.

At least you can illuminate us as to your 'assumptions' about the world eh?

David

If you read the opening post properly (and mine) neither were advocating the abolishment of intelligence gathering agencies nor a world global government which somehow you deduced as the intention of the post.

I am sorry but your reaction is just nonsense and knee-jerk. My experience in this area is none of your business and your tone is rude and unnecessary.

You cannot deny that the US is one of the most powerful governments globally, and there are many examples where this power has been exploited both via economic pressures and overtly through war. The non-existent WMDs are one example. Roosevelt stated that America as a 'civilised' nation had the right to intervene in the affairs of other nations (if the US deemed the activities were in opposition to US interests) and the US has been following down this path ever since.

My own studies concentrated mainly on Latin America and there were many governments that were covertly bought to heel because the activities threatened US economic interests in that nation. AND this was regardless of how democractic that government might have been or how much it sought to help its own people. US government in both Africa and Latin America have dealt with left wing and even facist governments if it was deemed they were friendly to American interests. Saddam was left in power after Kuwait (and despite Kuwait) once oil interests were made safe. Human rights records had nothing to do with it - please think more deeply about these issues.

Just one example: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm

Please don't write about an issue until you have really looked at it closely David and read posts properly so that you can understand what is that posters are saying not what you think they are saying in a knee jerk reaction to anything you think sounds remotely anti-American.

Being aware and judgemental of bad behaviour by the US (or indeed any other nation) does not mean that you are anti-US.

Please be more careful with your spurious assertions.

David

I am tempted not to respond to your ridiculous scenario which has nothing to do with 'interventionist policies' as they relate purely to US economic interests.

Of course if an intelligence agency becomes aware of mad right wing dictator's plans to send over a nuclear device the obvious answer is yes do something about it. One assumes the evidence would be overwhelming and not the same calibre of evidence that assumed WMDs were being housed in Iraq.

Knowledge is everything. Without it, you are nothing. And it's not the knowledge that's the issue, it's what you do with it is what counts.

There are wars fought in every country on the planet in various forms. Bullets and bombs step in where intelligence (in all forms) failed.

Daeron said:

"I think it is time the United States put away its childish toys and began adult discussions, yes they like us as entitled to gather information, but neither are entitled to conduct sabotage in other nations unless we have declared war."

You're naive and a dreamer. Good for you, but you've got NO IDEA going by that statement.

My response the other week appears to have gotten lost in a server hiccup.

StG and BOAZ_David have had lengthy fantasy debates about what they want to believe other people said. In case anybody else forgot the subject, I'll re-state for you.

1) Intelligence agencies that gather real inform for government departments in Australia and other nations, are vital and important tools.

2) In the US idiots like the CIA and NSC should stop playing Matt Helm and James Bond dress-up, it is time to grow-up and allow the experts at the DoS, DoD, and DoJ to do their actual jobs.

The CIA has a long history of 'blow-backs' that started with Operation Ajax to place a US-friendly British style monarch in power which twenty five years later produced the Islamic Republic of Iran. The DoS thought it was a bad idea, the DoD thought it was a bad idea; but the CIA following its mantra believed it could install US friendly governments around the world. In 1990 there was a point in declaring war on Iraq, but George Bush Snr being a bonesman idiot decided to stop at the gates of Baghdad and leave President Saddam Hussein to in place (He had been told by the CIA that Saddam's own people would handle the rest, and being ex-CIA and a bonesman he didn't question the grounds for that opinion). In 2002 the CIA and other agencies generated reports to support GW Bush's wish to invade.

It is time to stop the childish games, time to let the DoS, DoD and DoJ to have the information that the CIA and NSC have concealed for sixty years from their government and allowed their Whitehouse executives to hear from the DoS, DoD and DoJ without being re-interpeted. Just like StG and BOAZ_David trying to convince readers that I said the opposite of what I actually said, it is not helpful when the US President is having the information distorted by the CIA and NSC agenda.