Much attention has been focused on Israel's Gaza goal. There is a thread devoted to that topic.

But what are Egypt's goals in Gaza.

The so-called Israeli "blockade" of Gaza would have been impossible without Egypt's cooperation. At any time Egypt could have opened its border with Gaza.

In fact, when Hamas blew up the border fence between Egypt and Gaza in January 2008, the Egyptians re-sealed it.

Yes the Egyptians do maintain a "security fence" between themselves and the Gazans! Sound familiar?

Now Egypt's President Mubarak has reportedly told an EU delegation that "Hamas must not be allowed to win its conflict with the Israel Defense Forces."

See: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052974.html

So what are Egypt's goals in Gaza?

I would think one of the key objectives is for Hamas not to be seen as a successful model for the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood, who
Follow the credo

“Allah is our objective.
The Prophet is our leader.
Qur'an is our law.
Jihad is our way.
Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.”

and potentially represent a serious destabilizing influence, domestically for, what seems to be at present, a “secular” Egypt, tolerant of multiple faiths.

In short, the Islamic fundamentalism, in the style of say Iran, is what Egypt is resisting and why it would happily see Hamas fail.

I am not sure how Egypt ranks in terms of free and fair elections but I would assume it is producing better overall outcomes than the upheavals associated with government by ‘fundamentalism’ (of any kind).

Actually, on that note, I was pleased to see the political demise of influences like Netanyahu against, what I perceive as, the moderate values of Barak, Sharon and Olmert.

IF Israel is ever going to come to a resolution in the middle east, it is only going to come through the offices of moderation, although we should not presume that “moderation” means “rolling over” to Palestinian demands to vacate.

it must be clear that egypts 'leadership' is a proxy

probably set up along the same lines as our two party demon-autocracy

all i know if you need a place to torture victims of rendition flights[or block borders] the egyptian leaders are israel/usa proxies

one would feel sympathy for the egyptian people, but we get the leaders we deserve ,seems there is much in the way of bad leaders in the mid east serving intrests other than their peoples

but you have a response
[so reveal the next step][the real reason for posting],

i cant wait to see where this question is going

cheers

hah col reveals his hand
the muslim brother-HOODS
as revealed by the israel bother hoods

the ultimate proxy body poli-trick

tolerant of all faiths [lol]

producing BETTER outcomes [for who?] lol
its all so predictable [lol]
moderation [lol]

OUG

I have just wasted half a minute of my life reading your last post.

I suggest, if you want to play the game you are engaged in, you find some other juveniles to compete with you.

I do not know all the necessary niceties of Egyptian politics to pretend I have a comprehensive grasp of the circumstances which drive and motivate her millions but

I do, sincerely believe, my post will, even with its deficiencies and defects, contribute more to anyones understanding or counterpoint any sensible contribution, than your inane and hopeless drivel.

I am not sure what "God" you are standing "under" but for all the good he doing in guiding your posts, you may as well be an atheist.

Steven,

Not sure what brought Egypt into this equation.

As far as I know Gaza, being a territory occupied by Israel, is the sole responsibility of the occupying country, the UN and the Palestinian authority. Egypt is a mere mediator.

Please clarify your point.

Fellow_Human,

I think my original post makes it clear.

From New Scientist 10 January 2009:

NUCLEAR MIDDLE EAST

Iran isn't the only Middle Eastern nation that has observers worried about nuclear proliferation. Nine other countries in the region plan to build around 12 nuclear power plants over the next decade. This will produce enough plutonium in spent fuel for 1700 nuclear weapons, … With nuclear weapons already in Israel, Pakistan, India and potentially Iran, there is motivation to acquire them.

If the newcomers acquire fuel production and reprocessing facilities then the risk of material finding its way into weapons will rise sharply. Inspections might prevent this, but only eight countries in the region - including Iran - have signed the International Atomic Energy Agency's most stringent inspections agreement, known as the Additional Protocol. Only four countries enforce it. Egypt says it will never sign. Both it and Turkey reject a proposed

Meanwhile, Gulf states have decided it makes business sense to sell their ever-scarcer oil and buy nuclear power for themselves. In December, the US agreed to sell a nuclear reactor to the United Arab Emirates. Both sides say the UAE will forego enrichment and sign the protocol. Yet it's unclear whether the signed deal stipulates this, says Henry Sokolski, who serves on the US Congress's anti-proliferation commission.

END QUOTE

Perhaps a future Middle-East war will be nuclear.

Steven,

Sounds like Egypt's goal is not to let the Gaza mess into its borders.

Gaza is an occupied territory which means the authorities involved are Israel, UN and the local Palestinian authoirity.

Why would Israel want to outsource its mess to Egypt?
If you make a mess, clean it up yourself.

Fellow human “Gaza is an occupied territory which means the authorities involved are Israel, UN and the local Palestinian authority.”

No, Gaza is an autonomous territory and has been that way for more than10 years, that is how they elected Hamas to replace Fatah .

The fact that the Palestinians, much to the chagrin of the limp left, have continued an unrelenting campaign of rocket attacks into, among other places, schools in southern Israel is irrefutable.

Another fact
Egypt has a delicate internal balance of political power which could easily be skewed by insurgent terrorism (remembering the assassination of Anwar Sadat).

Doubtless Egyptian politicians do not wish to see Egypt and its millions get flushed into a similar sewer as a few thousand Palestinians have ensconced themselves in and thus as an effort to prevent social unrest, seek to maintain the highest standard of border security between Egypt and Gaza.

Palestinians seem, despite being Muslim in faith, to have incredible similarities to alcoholics.

Every opportunity and every resource being devoted, regardless of its stupidity, to satisfying an illogical craving…

To blast Israel off the face of the planet,

Just like alcoholics spend every cent on booze and ignore consideration of the necessities, which would otherwise make for a better life for themselves.

Fellow_Human

For the moment let us forget the long history of who did what to whom, of who is in the right and who is in the wrong, of whether Israel should exist or not, of whether Israel has a right to be a Jewish state. Let us just leave all the baggage behind and focus on 2005. That is when the Israelis withdrew from Gaza.

At that point the Palestinians stood at the cross-roads. They could have said something along the following lines. "At last we got rid of this damn Jews. We have a little sliver of territory we control. Let's show the world what we can do."

They could have said "YES WE CAN."

They could have sent trade missions to Europe with the following message. "You don’t need to go all the way to Asia to build factories. Come and invest in Gaza. You will find an educated and willing labour force. Forget aid. Give us investment."

They could have turned Gaza into the Singapore of the Mediterranean.

You will say the Israelis would never have allowed that, blockade, brutality, Palestine still occupied, right of return, yada yada.

I say the Israelis would have been delighted to have Gaza as a trading partner rather than an enemy. It would have made it much easier for the Sharon government to withdraw from areas in the West Bank. Perhaps there would have been a Palestinian state already

But you know the REAL TRAGEDY Fellow_Human?

The REAL tragedy is that we'll never know what might have been The Palestinians in Gaza never tried the path of peace and economic development. Instead they went straight for the war option.

And the Palestinians voted in a party whose charter lays out its genocidal intentions more clearly than even Hitler's Mein Kampf; a party that has shown by word and deed that its first priority is the extermination of Jews.

The Palestinians voted for a party that said it wanted war. They got a war. I am at a loss to know how they could have expected anything else.

Hi Steven,

Not sure why would anyone assume that an occupied nation won’t resist its occupier. Making trading partners with Palestinians would suggest Israel to follow the steps of the British empire with its colonies (ie liberate and support real autonomy, etc..). Israel is doing the opposite.
Regardless, the 2 questions that I find puzzling to an Israeli are these:

- How did murdering 500 children with F-16 bombs solve the Hamas problem? If not add its popularity and its legitimacy now that European countries want to provide aid and assistance to the disaster zone.

- How can a country survive in a region without having good relations with the region it wants to exist in?

Col Rouge,

Two reservations on your comment:

- Cause & effect: it’s easy to judge 3 generations of homeless refugees. But is this a cause or an effect?

- You would have to agree that the Fatah autonomy was rejected by Palestinians because of mismanagement and corruption. Israel’s support to Fatah contributed to Hamas’s popularity. While I am not blaming Israel it’s a poor crisis management on its side.

Fellow_Human, Col Rouge,

Let me deal with the question of the Palestinian "refugees" so-called.

Here is the definition of a Palestinian refugee.

"UNRWA's definition of a refugee also covers the descendants through the male line of persons who became refugees in 1948."

See: http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/whois.html

This is an extraordinary definition. It applies to no other group in the world. By that definition my children, born in South Africa to parents born in South Africa, are refugees from Germany.

By that definition half the population of Israel are refugees from Arab countries.

The Palestinian refugees live in appalling circumstances. They are certainly oppressed, mainly by other Arabs. But they are not refugees from Israel. Most Palestinian "refugees' were born outside Israel to parents who were born outside Israel.

Only among Palestinians is "refugee" an hereditary title.

Fellow_Human,

Your last post evades my point.

Do the Gazans want to resist a (non-existent) occupation? There were several resistance options. One option was to prosper – to cease thinking of themselves as "refugees" and build the LAND OF THEIR BIRTH which happens to be Gaza.

Instead they chose the path of war and got a war.

The civilian casualties are what would be expected when Hamas deliberately hide among civilians in contravention of the Geneva Convention.

Here is Article 28 of Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War

"The presence of a protected person [eg civilian] may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations."

Fellow_Human,

If the Palestinians feel their cause is just and worth going to war over that is their decision. I cannot tell them what to do.

But it is not reasonable to go to war and expect to escape casualties. It is especially not reasonable to fight a war from a heavily populated area and expect to escape civilian casualties.

And if you announce your intention to exterminate an entire people you have to expect those people to fight back – as the Nazis discovered in the Warsaw Ghetto and as Hamas discovered last month.

Fellow Human “You would have to agree that the Fatah autonomy was rejected by Palestinians because of mismanagement and corruption.”

Fatah was the recognized leadership of the Palestinians, they perpetrated some horrendous and obscene atrocities in the name of their “cause”.

At the time Fatah came to prominence and power, Hamas did not exist.

“Israel’s support to Fatah contributed to Hamas’s popularity.”

Bearing in mind what I have said above, particularly the non-existence of Hamas, I will ask you to advise us-
who would you have preferred Israel to negotiate with, other than Fatah, through its leader, the snake, Arafat ?

“. While I am not blaming Israel it’s a poor crisis management on its side.”

Hamas continued use of terror (like Fatah before it) and indiscriminate rocket attacks is hardly a role model for “crisis resolution”, unless ones objective is the annihilation of Israel and I figure any strategy formulated around that goal is perfectly worthy of retaliation in kind.

In other words, don’t poke a tiger with a stick, it annoys the pokee and will eventually provoke unrestrained retaliation toward the pokee, with serious consequences…. And who can blame the tiger?

Fellow_Human,

It may be that you consider the establishment of a Jewish state to be a monstrous injustice; that the only way of rectifying that injustice is either by destroying Israel or changing the Jewish nature of that state by force of arms.

If that is what you consider to be the right path I shall not argue with you. I am not stupid enough to think I can change your mind.

What I can do is point out what I believe will be the consequences of following the war path.

I do not think the Jewish state will die quietly or soon. If you choose the path of war you must expect the Jewish state to fight back with everything it has. You are probably condemning those in the front line, the Palestinians, to decades of misery, poverty and death. It could end in a nuclear blow out that kills tens of millions and leaves a radioactive cloud over the Mediterranean.

Leaving aside all the rhetoric, empty rhetoric, about "occupation" and "resistance" there are, as I've pointed out, other options available. It could include financial compensation for the descendants of the refugees.

Do you know how the Palestinians can kill "Zionism" Fellow_Human?

The can kill Zionism by prospering. That will lead to trade relations, the flow of labour, and a mingling of Jews and Palestinians.

In 2005 for the first time in decades, prospering became a realistic option. So far the Palestinians have blown it. I say this not because I want to gloat but because it saddens me.

If I have one message for the Gazans it is this.

--Forget the rhetoric

--Lose the victimhood

--Enough already with exterminating Jews

Focus on making Gaza, the land of your birth, an example of what Palestinians can accomplish.