From 60 Minutes this evening:

“Driving a car is the most dangerous thing a teenager can do”

“They’re killing themselves in very large numbers”

“Two are dying every week”

“The human brain hasn’t fully developed until the age of 25”

This story emphasised the terrible lack of skills and the overconfidence, bravado and downright stupidity of (many) teenage drivers.

However, while it was a positive thing for this to be driven home to the Australian public on prime-time television, 60 Minutes was TERRIBLY remiss in failing to even mention the policing of road safety or the quality of driver-training in order to get a licence in the first place!

The ONLY thing that was touted as a possible solution was a technological innovation which limits a vehicle’s speed to that of the relevant speed limit.

Dear o dear!!

What do OLO posters think?

What is the answer to getting teenagers… and indeed all drivers… to be aware of risk factors and safety margins, and to RESPECT them when driving ?

Ludwig! The human-being, has no sense, until the age of 30! even then, they are only guessing the out comes of their lives. I say! its your lives, and what you do, is solely on your hands. Don't second guess! What do you think the old people are here for?> too screw you over!
Not even you could be that silly.

In general, you know what is right and wrong, so this is a bull.... question!

Are you looking for a angle, just to relieve your frustrations?

OH! congratulations on your three years! Well done.

EVO

EVO

EVO.. have you developed a speech impediment? :) repeating urself there ol son.

The bravado of the young is probably why we send them off to the trenches and jungles in far away places.

I'm only beginning to feel 'vulnerable' now.. and I'm well.. 'getting on' in years...

How many of us were concerned that we might have a stroke or heart attack when we were 20? How many of our peers had such experiences?

And for the rest.. like irrelevant car accidents? aaah.. well I'm just so skilful (at 20) that it will nevvvver happen to me....right?

Ludwig: << 60 Minutes was TERRIBLY remiss in failing to even mention the policing of road safety or the quality of driver-training in order to get a licence in the first place! >>

I take your point, but if it was down to policing and driver training then I'd expect that Queensland at least would have experienced a decline in road accidents among young people. In recent years, it's become far more difficult to obtain a driver's licence (or even a learner's licence) in Queensland - with the introduction of learner log books, a minimum period of 12 months on L-plates, restrictions on numbers of passengers P-plate drivers can carry and on engine capacities etc etc.

And any young driver will tell you about the amount of attention they attract from police that we older drivers generally don't.

I actually tend to agree with Porky and EVO on this one - it's primarily a feature of the bravado of youth. However, I also agree that technological fixes like that described on '60 Minutes' are unlikely to have much effect, either.

It would probably be more effective to ban all the massively-funded and promoted so-called 'sports' like 'Indy', 'V8 Supercars' etc that the young find so attractive, and which they attempt to emulate on the roads. But I can't see that happening...

..,.Train up a child in the way he should go and he will never depart from it . The letter killeth but the spirit gives life. Love covers a multitude of sins, love is not blind, is faithfull, gentle, suffers long, and produces patience and respect. Love is not sexual lust but is one of the fruit of the Spirit and you only bare fruit if you live in the vine . The buck stops with the fathers because that is where you get your identity from. All children go from total dependance to total independance , it is when the greatest changes are taking place in the body, the teen years or called the rebelious years,completely missunderstood. People perish from a lack of knowledge. I was having problems with my teenage daughter as she loved to test her boundrys and I saw it as rebelion But the Holy Spirit showed me it was the most natural occurance in life and just part of the growing up process,Love her for love covers a multitude of sins.
Not easy when you are being challenged by a very modern miss.
Two books I recomend by Stephen R Corvey are The seven habits of highly highly efective people and Principle- centered leadership .
When a child KNOWS that his father loves him he is secure in that knowledge and will accept the word NO, esential in a fathers roll as Head Of the family where the buck stops . For the fathers role is to Guide, Guard, And Govern the family . Mothers role is to nurture the family. Wives submit to your husbands. Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church and gave up his life for it.
Love covers a multitude of sins and is not a feeling but a decision.
My people perish from lack of Knowledge and if you are unteachable and proud, remember pride comes before a fall . And remember bad things happen . So never stop learning and living .

the usual fluff/the usual suspects[youth suicide is 3 times the road death numbers]

but you cant seize property[or put in more[revenue-raising]speed cameras for suicide]

just as the lie of a drug-war is borne by our youth

legal drugs feature in the top[5]causes of death[mainly alcohol[but by clever accounting the booze_deaths becomes MINUS 2000[due to the percieved BENIFITS of a single drink[but who stops at one right]

every day is usa alone the equivelent of 3 jumbo jets crashing DIES from adverse_reation to PERSCRIBED-DRUGS

[one in 100 hospital admissions is for adverse-reaction to perscribed drugs[1 in 10 resulting in death]

yet the govt subsidy for drugs goes on[and the media enriched by booze advertising blissfully continues its attack on our children]

yes cars kill
there are people who should not be allowed to drive[but by the same measure there are people who shouldnt be allowed to eat transfats their'fast 'foods are saturated with [also promopted by the media]

govt is ALLWAYS after the quick fix[persicute the kids who dont know their rights[because schools dont teach that]

instead the media trains our kids[with cooking shows and sports,and murder/cop shows[we're spirit's having an incarnate life experience [guess what;we ALL DIE]

ok 2 kids a week are dying in cars[what about the 32 thousand criminalised by drugs'possesion'[great choice of word's]each year[in qld alone]that despite being criminal caused but a fraction of deaths in total

and the plant not a single death[EVER}

this brain development thing is the latest buzz_word[recall the abc last week,same reason so kids cant use cannabis[wrongly called marijuana[a plant not a drug]death toll zero.

but because the public is so dumb[believing whiter than white and 20 times stronger[than what you smoked as a kid[its like saying flour that is twenty times stronger;ie pure spin

but lets break that one too shall we[in the non_drug use population one in twenty five get phycotic symptomology
[in the dope/smokers it is one in fifty]

[actually halving the number]

[but they quote only the one in fifty,and the one in twenty five still go nuts DESPITE never touching ;drugs'

I started my on-road experience riding motorbikes; which I remain grateful for:

1. Having survived; I rode motorbikes from age 18 through to 24.

2. The experience that riding a motorbike taught - reliance on skill, a feel for road surface and avoidance rather than just relying on brakes as most car drivers do.

3. Another difference is that motorcyclists, for the first 12 months cannot ride anything more powerful than a paltry 250cc.

I shudder when I see a callow youth behind the wheel of a supercharged anything. Restrictions on the type of vehicle an inexperienced driver can access would be a great start. Motorcyclists have to deal with the restrictions, so why not car-drivers?

Personally, everyone should start out on a 125cc motorcycle - I think we'd see a lot more respect for others on the roads. I know I'm only dreaming, but I am grateful for the effort my parents put in teaching me to drive on the back roads, followed by a course with a professional instructor and my own start on motorbikes.

I'm still alive and basically in one piece today as a result and many young people haven't made it to contented middle age.

Ludwig.
I remember reading in some obscure literature about a divice that when fitted to a car it could cut the power of that car by remote.
I wondered at the time if there could be some way to have them built in to all cars in a way that they couldn't be tampered with then all the police would need in a pursuit and illegal races is to push the button...no more go go. Even all modified cars had to have this device installed and could be instpected. Mandating P platers to have the device on all cars they drive etc. After loosing all but 2 point all drivers at their expense have to have speed governors untill the new points.

Recent brain research has determined that the human brain isn't fully mature untill between approx 24-26. The decision making part of the brain (frontal cortex?).
I also note that the prefered age for military enlistment is before 26. I wonder why hmmmm?
Statistics show that most single mum pregnancy occur b4 23yo.(nunney perhaps)
Like the man said "youth is wasted on the young"
It would seem that Evolution is still behind in its work load.
PS the nunery bith was a joke.

EVO; “Not even you could be that silly.”

Huh?

“In general, you know what is right and wrong, so this is a bull.... question!”

What question are you referring to?

“Are you looking for a angle, just to relieve your frustrations?”

Well you are right about the frustration bit. I’ve got a huge amount of frustration with the whole road safety issue and have had for many years. It seems to me that we could SO EASILY vastly improve it….but that not even the most basic things get done. I’ll elaborate on that in subsequent posts.


“OH! congratulations on your three years! Well done.”

Cheers

I liked the idea of regulating the car industry to manufacture cars that don't go over a certain speed - afterall you can't go over 110km on the open road anyway. The new road safety modified car on the program was pretty amazing even slowing down to 40 in a school zone.

Perhaps the only problem with that is that kids may be able to modify the car anyway to make it more hoony as appears to be the trend for some teenagers. Another problem may be that sometimes speed is needed to avoid an accident although there may be no figures on how often this might happen. Not often I would think.

It is a big problem. I don't believe education is 100% effective but it may deter some, but there will always be that bravado and peer pressure to push the boundaries a bit more.

Ludwig,

I accept your general point that the focus proposed is absurdly narrow.

I note my concerns of remote tampering with driving by someone or something that has no specific insight into the driving circumstances. For example, I would expect a young driver to be the most likely to misjudge an overtaking manouvre. Something like that would be death sentence if they realized their error and tried to survive with a burst of acceleration but instead got the power cut.

I further note the comment that the youth suicide rate is 3 times the road death rate. I wonder how many youth deaths, particularly among young males, attributed to speeding and inexperience are really a depressed youth planting his foot firmly on the accelerator and deliberately lining up a tree. It certainly fits my image of a young male suicide strategy in areas where they can't get a gun. I suspect that the suicide rate is actually higher and the deaths genuinely attributable to youth speeding are lower than currently believed.

Pelican,

Regulating a cars speed would be a good thing, but the problem with that is that a car might not be able to reach an adequate speed when going up a hill or when towing. I would like to be able to program a desired maximum speed (not cruise control) that would work under all driving conditions. I'm not aware of any car where the accelerator is electronic, (they still operate by a cable or linkage). These days aircraft use fly by wire technology, and one day we may see that in cars which will give drivers more control over their speed.

I feel that parents have to accept some of the
responsibility.

Choosing vehicles for safety
not image would perhaps be a good place to
start. Also, supervising practice driving. Don't
simply rely on driver education schools for
your children.

Most young people tend to give lifts to their
friends. Restricting the number of passengers
is another factor that needs to be looked at.
As well as stressing the importance of wearing
safety belts.

Prohibiting drink driving is a must.

According to statistics most accidents happen at
nighttime between 9pm and midnight.
Restricting nighttime driving might be another
option to consider.

Lastly, parents should remember they are role
models for their children. Often bad habits
are passed on from the parents.

Not everything is going to work,
but it's worth a try.

Polycarp; “I'm only beginning to feel 'vulnerable' now.. and I'm well.. 'getting on' in years...”

The feeling of invincibility is very difficult to address. In fact, it is pretty much impossible to get it through the thick heads of a large portion of the young populace, no matter how graphic road-safety ‘advertisements’ might be or how intense driver-training might become.

We sure as hell need vastly improved driver-training. I’m not so sure about those graphic TV, newspaper and billboard messages though. But the most important thing, I believe, is to hugely improve the policing regime.

One of the biggest problems of all is that (many) young drivers feel the same about being caught by the police as they do about having an accident – that the chances are very small indeed. And basically they’re right….about the latter at least.

So what we need is for a much larger portion of the police force, if not the entire thing, to be INCONSPICUOUS – in unmarked cars, which can easily be identified with a flashing blue light and siren when they need to be.

Some or all Australian states have had this to a limited extent for decades. So why not expand the concept? What’s the bloody point of having the police in vehicles that stand out like dogs balls, when an unmarked vehicle can instantly be made unambiguously obvious? I’ve never understood this.

continued

And MORE IMPORTANTLY, we everyday ordinary road-users ALL need to be empowered to do our bit by being easily able to report hoons and other obviously deficient drivers.

In just the same way as there have been campaigns to dob in a smoky vehicle and report litterers, there needs to be a major campaign centred on reporting bad drivers.

If unscrupulous young (and any age for that matter) drivers realised that any person on the road could easily make a report to the police, then their aberrant behaviour would be greatly mitigated, wouldn’t it?

This is another thing that I fail to understand – that the reporting of bad drivers has effectively been strongly deterred by the police, unless an 'accident' has actually occurred.

Not every report needs to be acted upon. If the police get three reports of the same vehicle, then they should act. Drivers should be encouraged to give idiot drivers a signal that they are going to report them or are considering it, by flashing their brake lights three times if the mongrel is behind them, headlights if they are in front, or three quick bips on the horn.

Fwaarrk, it really is all sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo easy to GREATLY reduce the DANGEROUS driving antics of our young and inexperienced drivers……isn’t it?? ?? ?? ??

Polycarp: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=8121#126923

Ludwig.
There are three flaws in your suggestion I can see.
One malicious reports
Legally accepted evidence
and ability to enforce.

I have to disagree with you the solution isn't simple and if it were would it be acceptable.

While deaths are tragic and get the attention there are far more on going injuries that have a wider effect on the public. This ranges from costly medical care to ever increasing insurance

In the final analysis Ludwig, we can't protect people from their own natures/stupidity.

Examinator, they’ve got this sort of thing in New Zealand. So it shouldn’t be dismissed too lightly. http://www.police.govt.nz/service/road/roadwatch.html.

I find it quite bizarre actually, that we have been encouraged (in some states at least) to report litterers and to report suspicious people as part of local neighbourhood watch programs, neither of which would be likely to have any legally accepted evidence….and yet the a lack of hard evidence is the first and biggest problem people have with reporting bad drivers.

Yes a comprehensive ‘roadwatch’ program would have its problems. But it is pretty obvious to me that the downsides would be a whole lot less significant than the upsides.

As well as the potential for a very significant reduction in bad driving, another big advantage would be an avenue for frustrated drivers to actually do something positive about road safety, instead of feeling powerless or feeling as though the only thing that they could do is to take matters into their own hands. I think this sort of a scheme would greatly reduce road rage.

Thanks to all contributors on this thread.

But crikey, there really is very little interest in road safety, and the law and mentality of young drivers that pertain to it. I guessed that this thread wouldn’t go very far…just as my past efforts on similar subjects on OLO have failed to gain momentum.

I think the great problem with our abominable standard of road-safety is the extraordinary lack of concern about it within the general populace. If the will was there, some very effective measures could be implemented very quickly. I don’t believe that it requires hugely expensive long-term complex strategies.

But the will just isn’t there. The general community is just not too concerned, despite most of us being out there on the roads practically every day and regularly witnessing some pretty hairy stuff, and knowing family members or friends who have died or been badly injured on our roads.

There is enormous scope for discussion here, about how to improve road safety. But it obviously ain’t gonna happen. This just blows me away.

Steel Mann
I must admit I hadn't thought about uphill or towing but isn't this more to do with power than speed (or maybe a bit of both)?

Ludwig
It is an important issue but it is also a difficult one to think of any workable solutions. The answer probably lies in manufacturing or law enforcement strategy because education doesn't seem to work. Raising the driving age probably wouldn't be feasible either as it would be politically risky.

Another issue might be the populations of our bigger cities - too many people, too many cars, too much road rage and too many opportunities for unsafe or hoon drivers to cause accidents.

The problems seem insurmountable and I don't know what the answers are.

Ludwig

I know my post was rather anecdotal - but I feel the points I made were entirely valid:

1. Education starting as early as possible (16 years of age) including many hours, preferably on a variety of vehicles.

And my main point:

2. Limits on the power of vehicle a teenager can drive, just as motorcyclists are restricted to 250 CC, so too car drivers.

Finally, there is no magic bullet. However limiting the type of car would be a good start.

Pelican, I think the answer lies predominantly in law-enforcement strategies and to a lesser extent with education and technology.

I find it strange that a lot of people would be quite happy if technological innovations prevented irresponsible drivers from practicing some of their dangerous antics, but are loathe to condone an improvement in policing that would achieve the same thing.

I’m bewildered as to why my ideas of empowering everyone to easily report aberrant drivers meets with such dismissal.

Implementing technological advances is a long, slow and expensive route. Education is likewise. Greatly improving the effectiveness of the policing regime by making hoons and other wnkers on our roads fearful that anyone witnessing their antics can immediately do something about it rather than just the incredibly sparse boys in blue, has got to be the way to go. They’ve certainly seen the merit of this in New Zealand.

Qld Premier Anna Bligh says that increased revenue from an imminent 33% increase in a wide range of fines will be used to put about another 120 police out there.

Now, if every one of those officers went into road safety and went out onto our roads, it would hardly make a skerrick of difference. But if they were placed in office jobs to administer a roadwatch scheme similar to that in NZ, along with a major publicity campaign imploring the public to dob in a dic*head driver, then I reckon a huge advancement would be made in road safety in Qld.

“too many people, too many cars, too much road rage and too many opportunities for unsafe or hoon drivers to cause accidents.”

Yes. All the more reason for greatly improving the policing regime in this sort of a manner.

Fractelle: “I shudder when I see a callow youth behind the wheel of a supercharged anything.”

Absolutely!

As with motorbikes, I’d like to see a system whereby drivers start out with small vehicles which psychologically counter the urge to hoon. For example, a young male could hardly treat a Hyundai Getz or Holden Barina as a hoonmobile, could he? Perhaps they should all be pink and have flowers or dolls painted on the sides as well ( :>)

I agree that driver-education should be much more comprehensive, starting in school a couple of years before driving age. I also think that a full defensive driving course should be a standard part of pre-licence education.

Cheers

Well, before I say anything, I should mention that I think your first error was paying attention to 60 minutes. That program is a far cry from what it once was, but I suppose I digress.

I suppose I'd support extended restrictions on drivers up to 21, but I'm not sure about beyond that. Some posters have indicated that anyone under 30 is a problem driver or have indicated that brains aren't fully formed. Nevertheless, I know many people under 30 who could quite easily match brainpower with the older posters on this site and as a rule I'm against blanket restrictions when there are individuals who do not deserve such heavy-handed regulation.

However, I see some wriggle room - those who are indeed sensible drivers probably wouldn't need hoonmobiles as it were, and perhaps a little time to prove themselves behind the wheel of something less powerful would do them some good. I think a suggestion that P-plate drivers are only allowed 4 cylinder vehicles would certainly have merit.

However, my proviso would be that repeat offenders (older drivers, who may have open licences) who have displayed tendencies toward dangerous and aggressive driving should also be subject to such restrictions for a certain period of time. Naturally, exemptions would exist for work use of specific work-related vehicles.

Ludwig, I sympathise with your concern at the behaviour of drivers on our roads. However, I think that if you want to get Aussies to dob each other in you're pushing the proverbial uphill. It's just not going to happen.

Earlier in the thread, I made a comment about State-sponsored events like "Indycars" and "V8 Supercars" that nobody picked up. Am I the only one who thinks it strange that the Qld government bends over backwards to sponsor and host street racing, while at the same time bemoaning and penalising "hooning" on Qld streets?

I heard it reported today that "Indycars" (or whatever vile celebration of automotive excess) is the "Schoolies" for "adults" in Queensland.

What sort of message does that crap send?

TRTL; “…repeat offenders (older drivers, who may have open licences) who have displayed tendencies toward dangerous and aggressive driving should also be subject to such restrictions for a certain period of time.”

Agreed.

CJ; “However, I think that if you want to get Aussies to dob each other in you're pushing the proverbial uphill. It's just not going to happen.”

It’s a fundamental principle of law and liberties that everyone has the right to report others who are behaving illegally or improperly. Our legal system depends as more on this as it does on the police actually witnessing illegal activity. Indeed it is more than a right, it is a duty.

It is just downright irresponsible not to report serious dangerous driving if you witness it. And with a much easier system of reporting and some well-expressed support from the authorities, it would be irresponsible not to report less serious but obviously unsafe and illegal driving.

Anyway, it would only take a very small portion of the community to regularly do this in order to double or quadruple the effectiveness of the police on our roads…and make hoons realise that the risk of being sprung for driving in a manner that is unacceptable to the police would be very much greater than it currently is.

I have no doubt that with the right facilitation of complaints, there would be enough people willing to be involved to make the system very effective.

The most important thing is the deterrence factor.

I agree that IndyCars and V8 Supercar events are just absurd.