Should we? once we could have said some things should be in government hands.
After selling so much that would no longer hold water.
In private hands to make money not serve us we already subsidize child care.
Our subsidy often go in price rises the same week they are announced.
Should we put more money into private enterprise profits?
Well in the short term we must, the doors could have closed on Monday and most of what we spend is wages.
But long term we must confront such issues, we fail to do so much we should do because we say we do not have the money but find it for bail outs too often

Careful Belly, your ideology is showing.

The reason that subsidised private enterprise is used for things like child care, is that the same thing, run by the public sector would require three times as many staff, in each center, plus a massive bureaucracy, to "manage" the thing.

Being public servants, they would have to be paid double the private sector wage rates. We could then expect something as effecient as our brilliant public hospital system.

Something as good as this is not any sort of answer. let alone a good one.

I understand this would offer another 45,000 workers who could not avoid membership of a union, hence the interest, so thanks mate, but no thanks.

I feel the Government has done the right thing.

They have bailed out the ABC Child Care Centers,
but only until the end of the year. This is to give
more time to working parents as well
as employees of the centers find alternative centers
and employment for next year.

Had the Government not helped there would have been
working parents with no where to put their children,
and unemployed child carers, for the next two months.

We can only hope that things will sort themselves out
thanks to the help provided by the Government.

childcare centers perform the same tasks as public schools, and should be run by the state for the same reasons: the children are entitled to care, and the nation benefits if everyone gets a standard of care.

pretty obvious, really.

Set up franchises from ABC learning centres and the problem will settle down and the ABC learning centers will make money.I would buy one .David.

Hasbeen,
Careful you are spouting unsupportable ideological urban Myths. :-)

Foxey,
I heard that there is a plan to dispose of the centres to multiple ownerships.
One group of parents want many to go in community hands. To me that sounds sound reasoning. Nobody has better motivation (in theory) to look after one’s children than their families. Besides which I support any sensible attempt to create a community.
The govt has said that they would never allow one operator to dominate again. Well as a devout opponent to corporations and dominance I agree. ;-)

Mattermotor,
Could be a good idea. Although the franchiser would need to be the Govt. I don't trust big corps franchises As part of an insovency team I've seen too many victims the corporation franchises.

Child care centres are bad news anyway. It gives parents a cop out of their responsibilities (especially mothers).

Runner, you are living in the past. Wake up to yourself.

As for the bail out, why just childcars centres. My businesses have seen a major downturn (20% +) and I am about to chop staff. Why can't I get assistance to keep them on?

This is likely to open the flood gates as the government can't just support one struggling business, can it?

It's got the 'pilots strike' feel about it!

Unsupportable myth, examinator, try this one.

Country town hospital, downgraded over recent years. Maternity, & radiology most recently gone. Now acts as a dressing station, & transfers patients to regional hospital.

Total beds 13.
Average overnight patients 3.
Total full time staff, admin, & medical, 73.
Adminstration staff 43. [Some of whom were once medical staff]

That myth is alive, & well, & living in Queensland, or anywhere else that public administration EVER gets a toehold.

As far as I can tell, the reason that ABC went belly-up is because of Eddie's ego and greed. I have an acquaintance who owns several childcare centres, and he's doing very nicely, thank you.

Given that childcare is now an essential service, I can see a case for government intervention on a temporary basis in order to maintain operations. Meanwhile, the receivers should sell off the individual centres to the highest bidders.

Hasbeen - if the figures you quote are real, then they are outrageous. However, they would be a matter of public record somewhere. Please name the hospital so others can verify your allegations.

I have ZERO sympathy for Eddie Groves.. but lots for the parents of course.

GROVES got what he deserved..but perhaps some punishment would be in order.

His huge debt came about partly because of them maintaining non viable centres until the competitors went out of business, it is reported.

So his business practices leave much to be desired.

He is an object lesson in how the Law of the Jungle is translated into business... he isn't alone.

But now he has been given his cumuppance.

I don't see why outside parties cannot simply buy up various ABC centres.. the concept seems sound and has a guaranteed income.
I don't imagine they used gold plated wash room furniture?

Come hasbeen settle your bias is always on display so why not mine?
I think a bit differently than you on most issues.
Child minding is a part of our culture, while some may wish mothers to stay at home reality has a different view.
Those homes can not be paid for on one wage nor can the health education and a host of things much needed.
Not to forget women have a right to the same freedoms men have.
Single parents male and female need to work.
And we need those skills they have in the workforce.
Now while Turnbull is not impressing me with his cry baby opposition tactics, he can do better than that, he may well be right, can we prop up private enterprise forever?
Are poster aware workers in this industry are amung the worst paid in this country?
I see solutions in the idea of smaller privately owned centers.
I see blame in ABC,s builder.
And maybe hope in Rudd's idea last year of centers being part of our schools.
Why not build them in school grounds and let them out as a subsidy in return for some say in prices charged?

I had to return.
Just had to.
Like an itch I had to scratch.
Hasbeen mate.
Can it be?
We differ in every thread can it be?
Are you by any chance?
No surely?
Are you John Howard?

Hasbeen, if you want an example of private V public when it comes to efficiency simply compare your local council building approval throughput to that of a private certifier. Public run institutions are a joke and for belly to suggest this as an option is just him justifying why he also feels that an un-skilled labourer is entitled to $35 + an hour.

The wheels are about to fall off and many of these thugs earning $2K + a week will be a thing of the past so this should lead to some interesting threads from our old mate hey.

Now somebody suggested that CC be established within schools. What a great idea. This would be a win win. Imagine one trip per day to drop the kids off, say one to CC, one to prep and two to school. Less time travling, less emmisions generated and a built in minder (older siblings) for the little ones should mum/dad be running late.

Hasbeen,
"One swallow doesn't make spring”. One could point to countless public activities that have been taken over by private enterprise and have been "cocked up" (BTW the term relates to archery) i.e. Victoria’s power generation. Private immigration camps, the job network (private enterprise isn’t doing any better).

Your quoted example is based on incomplete information. How many people does the hospital serve, what other functions are preformed. What are their specialities?

Health is one area that shouldn’t be limited by $&cents alone. Has been how much is your health worth?

Keep in mind private Doctors are businesses and 6 min medicine is a disgrace but profitable.

Private enterprise does things differently not necessarily better.

Rehctub.
I would argue that your personal interests don't make a universal fact.
I have seen awful decision made by both methods.
Likewise I've seen a council officer thwart a fraud and potential disaster perpetrated by an unscrupulous developer.
When money and private enterprise meet you have the potential for corruption.
Developers are out to make profits often viewing rules/regulations optional and public opinion merely an ignorable anoyance. Often these shortcuts & failure to comply with conditions are the causes for conflict/delays not the officers.

Unlike other nations, Australian families were uniquely exposed to the fortunes of a single corporation.

That childcare should never have been monopolised by an organisation like ABC should be a no-brainer. Now it has fallen and requires more help from the government.

Where interests of children and the elderly are in conflict with the interests of shareholders, how is a high standard of care going to be maintained? Whose interest will be served? Please note that Government subsidy and support is available whether childcare is run by a community centre or a private provider, the same applies to the Aged Care sector.

How can a for-profit business truly be considered private when a percentage of its profit is derived from government subsidies (our taxes)?

This brings into question the entire validity of the Care sector being privatised at all. Aged care facilities (at which I once worked) receive subsidies depending on the type of care required for its residents, irrespective of whether the facility is private or not-for-profit. I would rather my taxes be spent in the NFP sector than to someone who is profiting from essential care, be it for our children or elderly.

And there is no change in sight, Labor is committed to increase the child-care tax rebate to 50% of out-of-pocket expenses (the amount paid by parents taking into account child-care benefit). This is a gift to for-profit child-care services. They increase prices knowing that the taxpayer will be footing the bill for at least half the cost of any increase.

Child care should not be at the scant mercy of the sharemarket. In many European countries, the government provides child care as a community service and profit-making is not permitted. Whereas in Australia 70% of day-care services is provided by the private sector.

The current bail-out provides the means by which child-care can be returned to the responsibility of the not-for-profit sector.

Then we can start on Aged Care.

Heartily agree Fractelle.

There are certain sectors of care that work best as NFP. As soon as profit comes into it the care becomes a secondary motivation. It is all very well to argue that the market will fix it, competition blah blah blah - but clearly it doesn't.

In the meantime while we wait for the market to fix it there are real human beings who are affected particularly in aged care.

We are seeing more of this privatising profit, socialising debt phenomenon and we should all be shouting from the rooftops - enough is enough!

Those of you who think the opportunity is here for the government to takeover the pre-schools and day care centres, and now even aged care is mentioned.

With both major parties seemingly rusted on to privatizing EVERYTHING.Just how are you going to acheive that.

Butcher you disappoint me, I have seen people take to you like a hungry dog after a sausage.
Well not every sausage some are clearly hard to give away.
You in one post infer I am biased in favor of high wages, then grab on my idea of putting such centers in schools.
My my we do not spend much time reading the threads do we?
Take this advice, it is both true and honest.
Thugs and mugs, is often my quote, with every bone in my body, and even against some in my movement, I am forever opposed to the lunatic extreme left.
And the no wiser right.
Workers mostly firmly are too.
High wages are often, very often, paid by bosses who are in no way union friendly, or even dealing with unionists, supply and demand mate.
If you support the dreadful exploitation of childcare workers, the wages are indeed amung the lowest an adult female can be paid.
I ask you what value you place on our children.
Talk all you like about it but those children needed government intervention and their parents need certainty.
I see some want only to talk money but a treasure more valuable is the children.
Consider this rechtub you have chanted about tenants wages endless complaints about ordinary Aussies would you complain about fixing the price of your products?

Let's hear it for The Free Market Economy.

Let the market place decide.

What's wrong with women staying home and looking after the kids?

Belly, there are some ideas of yours, with which I most strongly agree, but normally I see no point in repeating what has all ready been said. Here is one. ABC should never have been allowed to dominate its sector.

That is only a minor thing however. The domination of Woolworths, & Coles, of their sector is much more dangerous. Try to get your mob to do something about that, & i'll be right on your side.

Back to my favourite, that if government runs something, that gives real corruption opportunities to unions. This is the main reason for privatisation. Your unions sh4t in their own nest, just a little too much, with overmanning on a breathtaking scale. Our telephone system is a prime example.

My father had a little post office/hardware shop in a minor village. It had a double public phone booth in front. I happened to be home on hollidays, when the PMG, [as it was when a publis service department], decided to referbish them. They replaced one pane of glass, & painted the things.

The first day, 8 men & 4 utes turned up over an hour & a half. Each ute had a tradesman, & a driver. Now I realise it can be dangerous for one man to work alone, but this was redicules. It got worse.

The last to arive was the linesman, who had to disconnect the line, before others could [?] start. After 4 hours he left, but came back on the 4Th day.

The technician removed the phones, then he, & the painter watched the carpenter do the glass, & a couple of hinges.

On the second day the tech moved some lines in a conduit. After lunch they, & the 3 drivers watched the painter undercoat everything. They then all watched this dry.

On the third day the painter did his thing, carefully watched by the other 5.

Continued.

Continued

On the forth day, the tech refitted the phones, the painter did 5 minutes touch up, the repair man watched, with the drivers, & the lines man came back for 4 hours, to reconnect 8 wires.

Belly, you know this was how the PMG worked, when in government hands. It is how much of the public sector still works now. Can you really suggest we should have the public sector run anything, ever again?

Hasbeen the public service of old is not the public service of today. I can tell you from experience that budget cuts have trimmed most of the dead wood and fat from the wider APS. In some cases not only the fat, but some of the essential services.

The PS has become an economic rationalist paradise and the unions no longer have the same clout they did back in the days of the PMG.

Behind your frivolity there's an important message, Is Mise.

>>Let's hear it for The Free Market Economy. Let the market place decide.<<

The major distortion in the ABC case was the presence of vast sums of public money - yours and mine - being funneled into this financial black hole.

It was given, you see, as a "right".

Not as a "right" to ABC, but to their clientele. All ABC did was to observe that this river of gold could be diverted their way, by "tagging" the indirect recipient. Once this was achieved, as has been noted before, all that was necessary to increase revenues and profits was to soak, not the punters, but the government. I.e., us.

A very tidy way to run a business. If the owners had been less greedy, and had not tried to move into more hazardous markets where there were real businesses with real competition, they would still be in clover.

Our money, when handed over the counter to private enterprise, should be accompanied by such a volume of red tape, that no-one could use it as a springboard to unbridled wealth.

Because that is what still rankles - these people were getting filthy rich by having their sticky fingers in our pockets, and relying upon it to continue, without need for justification or effort, indefinitely.

As it is, the cat is now well and truly out of the bag, and no-one will in future be allowed to pull the same stunt - at least, in this particular market. But I'm sure there are plenty more being rorted even as you read this.

The Age http://www.theage.com.au/national/notforprofit-group-offers-to-buy-victorian-abc-centres-20081110-5ld4.html

"A Victorian not-for-profit childcare group has offered to buy up to 40 ABC Learning centres after administrators and receivers were appointed to the troubled company last week.

- Not-for-profit group eyes ABC centres
- Organisation 'well-placed' for purchase
- Interstate centres also on cards

Try Youth and Community Services chief executive Damien Mowlam says the group has spoken with the administrators and receivers of ABC Learning and the Federal Government in a bid to purchase or manage via corporate partnerships between 20 to 40 centres in Melbourne and eastern Victoria."

This is a start, all Health Services need to be provided by NFP's. Too much conflict of interest when private companies are subsidised by our taxes.

Some things just don't work when profit is the primary motive as ABC have clearly demonstrated.

Hasbeen the PMG was like that! no defense some publicly owned things are run a bit like that even now.
But your views are of days long gone, and unions who no longer have that power.
I will forever cry in the dark my mantra, unions there is a difference.
In fact in defense of the union movement, my lifetime movement, clearly say most of the opinions thrown about like yours are uninformed and baseless.
However those miss using union power are the enemy's of unions too.
However one poster says let the market determine child centers, then do we let the market cost education?
Health? fire fighting? police? do we say why pay pensions or even unemployment benefits?
It is you know the economy, lashing women to the sink , is so silly I wonder who does not know the impacts of removing them from the workforce.
And if market sets the price without our help?
Already over priced childcare would be black market at our children's expense.
Some things need to be at least part funded by tax payers.
Building centers in schools, using tax payer ownership to keep end costs down is one way.
Old ideas of mum or dad staying home with the kids would take single parents out of the workforce and on to social security.

Hasbeen the public service of old is not the public service of today

Are you for real? Perhaps you should get out more often.

Let's say there is a hole to dig. 5 workers turn up in three trucks, each armed with a shovel. Two truck loads of 'traffic directing' teams turn up, one supervisor arrives, three lackies armed with brooms, then they hire a paid contractor with a mini excuvator to dig the whole.

Trust me, very little has changed.

Belly
I do appologise for not reading all of the threads, I just don't have time however, if I see what I consider is a good idea I agree with it. I don't care if the idea came from someone who is black or white, male or female, labour or liberal or god help us even the greens.

I am a true nutral person but the reality is that many in the workforce have become acustom to a very un-realistic level of wages in recent years and like it or not this is all about to change. I fear they are not ready for this and won't cope!

Cheers

rechtub with some people it will never be possible to tell them the truth.
I do not expect I can ever convince you your view of unions is from past days not today.
New leadership and directions are taking "some" unions into the future.
The wages you describe are "not" earned on any construction job I serve.
I "truly" am an enemy of stand over tactics from unionists or bosses, and believe me see far more from bosses.
Your description of government workers is just what it is, exaggeration and uninformed.
22 years, that how long I spent repairing or building roads.
Sometimes funds meant we filled pot holes in roads sealed with hot mix , with soil, yes soil.
Do you know some of those workers who stand shovel in hand waiting for you to pass would be dead if they ran in front of you?
Those big teams exist, too many staff too little work, but not forced by unions, some keep more numbers just to justify jobs they them selves do badly.
RTA workers are known to work very long hours because not enough of them exist to get roads open quickly after tragic accidents block them.
Traffic controllers are always contractors, and risk death every day on their factory floor, your roads.
I have no Axe to grind with you, but fair go mate unionists and workers who are not unionists do not have 2 heads they live along side you.
Maybe its their kids who need childcare.
One last point if government workers are so very bad the failure surely is in those who manage them?
Contract out management rolls and you will see who is the problem.

belly, my beef is not with you or the unions but I do struggle with the fact that school drop outs can earn up to $400 a day while our qualified persons often earn less, or why a person who holds a 'stop go sign' earns more that a fully trained butcher or chef.

As for the child care problem, I think Mr rud has put the wheels in motion to ensure that the demand for CC services will decrease dramaticly with his introduction of the paid maternity leave, or more so, the way it is to be funded as fewewer females of child bearing age will be in the work force and this is something I will put money on if these laws stay put as they are today.

I have always had a girl employed in each of my shops however they have both recently left and I can assure you they will not be replaced by other females of similar ages, which I must say is a crying shame but what choice do I and many other small business opperators have?

rehctub
The public service is always an easy target, sometimes it is valid and other times not.

We can all think of some public service (in the case you cited it I presume you were referring to Council workers) where there is perceived wastage.

For every one you can think of I can match it with a very real loss of public service - some more essential than others - where reduced staffing has caused great problems for the very public we are meant to serve.

I would worry more about the excessive salaries of some executives in the private sector whose bonuses and commissions are guaranteed despite failures, drops in share prices or bankruptcy. Or business people who took real advantage of workchoices to decrease real wages and living standards of the most vulnerable despite very real rises in the cost of living.

rechtub I have no wish to stray far from the threads intended direction.
But as you raise wages here are the facts, traffic controllers are casuals.
Most get work very randomly, sometimes every day, then one or two days a month.
Wages are $21.80 per hour with casual loading, no sick or holiday pay.
Are you aware child minders get much less?
Your idea that girls are going to leave work in massive numbers to have children is an over statement.
Some have had children for an income, stretching back to the 1970,s but while some will even those children will still need child minding centers.
We, think about it are in part socialist in this country, and better for it.
Compare our health struggling as it is with Americas, education, a host of things we subsidize.
We agree some government endeavors are full of waste, that too is often a form of social responsibility.
For all my life such as local government and once not now the RTA and many more employed the unemployable.
In Qld rain saw farmers get a part time job on the shire council.
Brothers uncles sons even daughters got a job.
Most, yes even farmers did not take the work ethic with them.
We are and we must continue, , moving away from that.
Most, not councils, are run very much better now.
Child minding centers are at least as important as education and health.
We simply can not tell parents male and female to stay home.
They must have two incomes to live the country needs them to work, even in this down turn you need them to buy ham instead of sausages with the generated income.

Pelican I can't argue with your point as I to am mystified by the payment these CEO's receive. It appear that the bigger the 'stuff up' the bigger the rewards! And yes I was referring to council workers. Interesting though is that if you talk to someone in the health system thay all say the same thing, there is plenty of money it's just that the system is 'top heavy' to many chiefs and not enough indians.

Lastly, I can assue you that I pay my staff well, if they work well. I pay bonusses, give time off with pay and often buy drinks if they do well. Just remember, all that a worker askes for is a fair days pay for a fair days work but unfortunately this is does not happen in the reverse at times where the employer receives a fair days work in return for that fair days pay. Do you think this is fair?

Belly
A casual butcher is paid less than $20 per hour. They to work a day here and a day there at times yet they have done an apprenticeship, learned a trade yet by your own assesment receive less! Why? becaue we work in retail where the public demand good service, high quality yet they don't wish to pay for it (I am generalising here)

As for the demise of working wemon, well let's just wait and see. I hope I am proven wrong!

*As for the child care problem, I think Mr rud has put the wheels in motion to ensure that the demand for CC services will decrease dramaticly with his introduction of the paid maternity leave,...*
Posted by rehctub,

As usual perfect.

Of Course Rudd has put that to play and dont forget the old unemployment figures...

We are in for a huge crash. Small business will be a thing of the past.

They have been leaving at the rate of around 700 per month since Rudd was elected.
How on earth can small business pay maternity leave. Why should they anyway. People are free to choose between having a family or working a while longer.
The butcher the baker or the candle stick maker should not be forced to pay for others people choices.
Anyway it was the death of small business as far as I am concerned. The last nail in the coffin to struggling hard working self motivated people.

I know you cant have your cake and eat it too but paying taxes to mind peoples kids has never done it for me tbo.

This country has got to get away from welfare payments or any payments that involve people not being made answerable for their own choices.

I just love the bit where Belly talks about our proud health system.

The fact is Rudd walked into a Government that had to learn up the mess Labour left us in with figures of huge amounts in the red.
Labour State Govs have made a complete mess of our health system.

Labours or Rudds Ms 'Wong' water Commissioner allowed OUR largest water supply to be sold off to an overseas company!

Still I suppose there must be some sort of a plan by the Rudd Gov. To close ABC might make way for jobs I suppose for the huge amount of increase in our migrant intake.
As they say Promises promises promises. Still that`s how they won the elections.

As I said on the other thread- Give me the butcher for PM anyday.

PALE - which water supply has been sold? to whom?

Most families need affordable childcare. Many young mothers rely on grandparents, and formal childcare because if a woman leaves the workforce for more than 2 years she is considered unskilled and has to retrain from scratch plus the family needs to incomes to service the mortgage on a modest house in an inner suburb with decent infrastructure or else live in the outer suburbs and face 2 hour car commute each way.

Howard supported the rise of ABC Learning through a number of initiatives
1. rebate to parents for costs of childcare
2. subsidised places for children of low income parents
3. removal of grants to build community child care centres
4. provision of grant to build for-profit child care centres

The state governments didn't help with the application of land taxes

Community child care is a partial solution that allows women to work part time close to home. It is not designed to provide long day care for full time working parents.

This is the perfect opportunity for the government to reorganise the sector into something better but I bet they won't do anything!