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The Forum > General Discussion > Culling Crocodiles

Culling Crocodiles

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After the death of Arthur Booker there have been calls to cull crocodiles in northern Australia http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/02/2380772.htm. These calls have been dismissed by the Queensland government.

While I wouldn't support killing crocodiles everywhere in the north, I think a case can be made for thinning their numbers near human habitation. We manage sharks in this way so why not crocs?

The crocodile may have once been in danger of extinction, but its numbers have swelled since it became illegal to shoot them. They also appear to have repopulated some areas where they had disappeared. The time has come to use some active management which is a bit more than just moving potentially troublesome crocs on.

It's not just their environment, it's our environment too.
Posted by GrahamY, Thursday, 9 October 2008 5:02:47 AM
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Graham

There are more fatalities from sharks, snakes, lightning, bee stings, scuba drownings and motor vehicles than from crocodile attacks, which averages about 0.7 deaths per year in Australia.

In other countries, thanks to homo-sapiens, crocodiles are now a threatened species.

And of course when we humans poach and destroy the crocs' food sources, they get a bit hungry occasionally and will take a foolish human - wouldn't you?

So I'd say "Don't provoke the natives!"

It also appears that Queenslanders are the most vociferous in their desire to cull the crocs even though the NT has more fatalities than Queensland.

However, rogue crocs can be relocated to existing crocodile farms.

If the current situation becomes more dangerous why not poach and destroy their eggs as an effective culling method?

Better still, why not cull Australia's immigration numbers of "alien species?"

Shootin' tootin' cowboys are no longer in vogue!
Posted by dickie, Thursday, 9 October 2008 10:06:45 AM
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Graham:

Crocodiles have been part of the environment for millions of years. If we are to share the environment with them, then we have to do it sensibly.

If we venture into Northern waters, we should do so acknowledging the fact that we could be sharing these waters with crocodiles that view us simply as food in their prehistoric eating chain.

The facts are clear! There are an awful lot of Crocs up there in the rivers and the ocean, but if we weigh the fatalities against the odds, then we come out pretty good counting the number of known fatalities attributable to Crocodile attack.

If we are to cull everything that we consider dangerous or threatening to man, then we could probably cull most of the world`s politicians for a start!
Posted by Cuphandle, Thursday, 9 October 2008 10:19:13 AM
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I agree that they should be culled.

I grew up in the NT and I recall a time when we could swim with reasonable safety in places that one wouldn't dare go near now. It was legal back then to shoot them. The problem I have with hunting them is that shooters used to often use live bait to attract them - like tying a young 'roo to a tree at the waterline. I've never got over seeing the remains of that sort of brutality.

I think their numbers have increased and, like any creature, if they deplete the food supply in one place then they'll expand their territory.

Since we live on the planet too I don't see any reason why our safe access to many of the places we can't use now should be less important than that of these repulsive reptiles.

Also, they can provide some reasonable source of leather and meat, apparently (yech). I think the suggestion of taking their eggs is a good one. In any case, however they're culled, I would prefer that it be by quota so that it can be done efficiently and as humanely as possible.
Posted by Pynchme, Thursday, 9 October 2008 10:22:20 AM
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Dear Graham,

Australia Zoo Senior Wildlife Ranger, Barry Lyon
said that a crocodile cull would achieve nothing.

"It's not going to work, the thing with crocodiles is
that you can never guarantee that you've hunted
them all out. There's always going to be some
survivors and some moving in from other areas to take
their place."

He also said that crocodiles were an essential part
of the river and lagoon eco systems in the North.

"Crocodiles are a part of life in the North, and
people who chose to camp or fish in croc infested
waters needed to be on guard... stay out of the
water, camp well away from the water, go fishing in
a good sturdy high-sided boat..."

Lyon also warned campers against throwing food scraps
or fish carcasses in the rivers.

"That attracts crocs, it's like fast food for them and it
puts people in dangerous situations."

In the case of the tragedy, regarding the missing man,
perhaps an Environmental agency could go and try to find the
crocodile responsible, and get rid of it.

But culling
other crocodiles? As Barry Lyon says, will achieve
nothing.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 9 October 2008 10:33:16 AM
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I agree with Foxy and Cuphandle. Having lived in NQ for 20 years or so and being a keen fisherman, I'm very familiar with crocodiles and their habitats. Every time there's a (rare) croc fatality there's a call from some quarters to cull them, but it would actually achieve very little.

The only safe way to deal with crocodiles in their habitats is always to assume they're there, and to modify one's behaviour accordingly. Yes, occasionally someone will get careless and pay the price for it, but I think that culling crocodiles primarily because people act stupidly sometimes is a gross over-reaction.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 9 October 2008 10:53:02 AM
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Heaven forbid - that the NT News would actually have to find something more newsworthy than a croc story to grace the front pages!

The proposals for "trophy hunters/safari operations" to take out the larger specimens may have had some merit, but like most outdoor activities here in the Top End any one of these is fraught with a degree of peril.

Marine stingers, sharks, rays, mud geckoes(crocs) Indonesian fisher-folk - the list goes on... Buffaloes, deadly disease carrying mozzies, bugs of all types, snakes, Mango Madness, 'The Build Up' etc. It really is the last frontier.

Curiously though, the speed restrictions brought in by our savvy Labor Government have actually had a negative effect on the road toll - no mention yet of culling politicians?
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Thursday, 9 October 2008 11:10:56 AM
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Graham,
No need to cull, its all in proper communication.

Last time i was in NQ our first visit was to the wildlife park and I looked the biggest croc in the eye and said. Tell your mates, if you don't come in the pub I won't go in the water. Didn't see one croc in the pub after that. No problem!
Posted by Banjo, Thursday, 9 October 2008 2:37:25 PM
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It's unfortunate this topic always come up in the media directly after an attack. It makes the subject seem like vengeance, which for many, it is. If that is the only reason for the culling then it's wrong to do it.

All species that flourish unnaturally need to be kept in check, however, for environmental, safety, and economic reasons. It NEEDS to be done in a professionally and no one should profit from it through on-sale of the animal. It should be gifted, unless the animal in plague proportions.
Posted by StG, Thursday, 9 October 2008 5:51:01 PM
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A very interesting outlook to say the least and I fully disagree with the cull. Habitat for these poor creatures is decreasing so rapidly, the only place where they will be appreciated is in a zoo. Not a very dignified end to such a majestic creature. When worlds population grows to the magic 9.2 Billion this will only add up to the total extinction of these and other creatures in the wild.
People forget that we are the invaders and it's "us" that are the unbalanced ones.( like i said before, we humans will eat this plant alive )
Better education and public notices with small advertisements on t.v. to hint the fact that you are in natures backyard and not down a local public place, where humans are quite comfortable and their habitat.

Croc,s are a fact of life! so if your taken, its your fault! The traps around cairn waterways, do the job quite nicely and if government bodies would stop and think for a minute, its at the nests where the solution lays, not shooting them!

Remove the eggs to control the population!

What is the problem?

EVO
Posted by EVO, Thursday, 9 October 2008 6:58:56 PM
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To the arrogant twits, from their safe abode in suburbia, demanding others live in danger of crocks, go jump. Your uninformed opinions do you no credit. If you wish to love these things, go do it, but don't expect others to do it for you. That's the way of the gutless. I'm sure the people of Cooktown will spear you a few to look after in your backyard, in the south, if you asked.

If those who live with them choose to, or not to have more of them, that should be their right, not yours. If they believe the danger of having them walk into their back yards, is just too great, that should also be their right. It is not the right of some greenie parks ranger to make that decision for them, or some city dweller either.

How city folk, who will not let their kids walk, or bus to school, have the hide to suggest others kids live in real every day danger, is just unbelievable, & totally unreasonable
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 9 October 2008 7:08:08 PM
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Hasbeen! And what do you purpose we do about this problem? You have suggested nothing.
How do you know I Live in suburbia? I could live up a gum tree for all you know! No-one is demanding anything.

Arrogant, twit, idiot, Iam sorry, I forgot! no-one on this site hasbeen any of those three. Silly me.

EVO
Posted by EVO, Thursday, 9 October 2008 11:36:59 PM
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*it also appears that Queenslanders are the most vociferous in their desire to cull the crocs even though the NT has more fatalities than Queensland.*

Dickie
That might be because Queenlanders are the ones to get eaten more often and have their lives changed. I can tell you lots of stories about farmers who have lost stock and their kids cant have a swim in the same places their Dads did as a kid.

Sharks btw are not controlled we allow Japan to come into our waters and cruely cut their fins off.

If we dont do something there will be none left.

Lets face it crocs in QLD area touchy subject only because of the Australia Zoo.

Pity the same people didnt put effeorts into highlighting cruelty to farm animals.

We should relocate where we can as quickly as possible because many more people will be killed.

Its very hard to raise a family in some of these areas.

Even harder to warn people camping because they just dont get it.

Either that or stop allowing campers and tourism
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 10 October 2008 8:46:09 AM
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GrahamY: "It's not just their environment, it's our environment too."

Really?

Then I politely suggest you go and explain that to the crocs.

BTW, you are wrong; the crocs inhabited the waterways long before any humans. Maybe one of the crocs will take the time to explain that fact to you - or maybe not :-D
Posted by Fractelle, Friday, 10 October 2008 9:06:00 AM
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A media report advises that "Queensland Environment Minister Andrew McNamara rejected the calls to cull crocodiles, saying they were misplaced.

"Mr McNamara said the Endeavour River did not have a high density of crocodiles.

"The EPA has recently done an assessment of crocodile numbers on the eastern side of the Cape and have found they have only slightly increased in a number of years," he told reporters in Brisbane today.

"It has one crocodile every two kilometres - it's not particularly a high density area.

"Calls to cull crocodiles are misplaced and insensitive in the extreme."

It is well known that saltwater crocodiles prefer to take prey from the water's edge where they will float for hours on end, waiting for a thirsty animal to approach for a drink.

So tough luck about the cattle Pale. You should bear in mind that cattle are an invasive species - a species which has trashed Australia's biodiversity. The croc is vital to this country's eco-systems - or what's left of them!

However, despite the warnings and signage (which I am told are adequate) foolish humans continue to invade the crocs' territory.

That Katter cowboy claims the crocs are in people's backyards though I've yet to read of anything which supports that claim. He's also reported as saying we should shoot up all the crocs because of one tragic fatality.

And based upon the findings from the Royal Life Saving Association, 110 people drowned in Australia during the year 2006/2007 so let's debate with a degree of rationale on the issue of crocodile fatalities, by first omitting the hyperbole.
Posted by dickie, Friday, 10 October 2008 11:04:15 AM
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Fractelle, on the basis of your argument we should all just lie down and die, because apart from somewhere in the African savannah, man is a relatively recent arrival in most areas.

I don't accept that as a rational way of looking at the environment. Species move other species out of the way all the time - it's how things evolve. I doubt whether crocs ever debate whether it is wrong for them to cull humans, they just do it.

We should accept that we will alter our environment and then make decisions as to how that should be done, not whether it should be done. So decisions as to whether to cull or not have ultimately be utilitarian to a large degree.
Posted by GrahamY, Friday, 10 October 2008 11:41:40 AM
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I agree with the idea of culling eggs rather than grown reptiles.

However, I wonder if this is a truly feasible plan? Female crocs rarely go far from the nest and when the hatchlings are ready, only do so in order to assist them towards the water - it would be virtually impossibly to destroy a whole nest during these brief absences, surely? If there are other females in the area they also keep a look-out.

Wouldn't trying to destroy nests be incredibly risky - if not close to impossible? Besides, of the hundreds of eggs that are laid, nature ensures that the majority fall prey to birds and other predators and so only a very few live to adulthood.

Wouldn't the danger far outweigh the results?
Posted by Romany, Friday, 10 October 2008 1:27:35 PM
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Fractelle “BTW, you are wrong; the crocs inhabited the waterways long before any humans. Maybe one of the crocs will take the time to explain that fact to you - or maybe not :-D”

Ah but all rights to exclusive use of said waterways were lost with Australia being declared Terra Nullius and subsequent British Colonization.

As GY said “on the basis of your argument we should all just lie down and die, because apart from somewhere in the African savannah, man is a relatively recent arrival in most areas.”

It is the nature of man to manage his environment, where ever he may be.

It is a point of difference which distinguishes him from the lower orders of critters.

A decision to cull or not to cull crocodiles amounts to a management decision, same way and a decision to leave somewhere as “wilderness” is a conscious “management” decision.

Crocodiles do not seem to make many conscious decisions.

They are driven by more primal urges like hunger and a lust to breed but they, like man, they are motivated by territorial possession, although they don't seem to do much with it once they have it.

In rivers occupied by crocodiles, I see little to suggest “social improvements” being undertaken for the greater welfare and benefit of all crocodiles.

So I guess they have missed their opportunity to display their "socially responsible" credentials and need to be taken under the wing of a benevolent government.

That is until they evolve sufficiently to take their rightful place alongside those who generally stand upright and carry the heavy burden of environmental management.
Posted by Col Rouge, Friday, 10 October 2008 2:16:06 PM
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Hi Romany. This practice of harvesting croc eggs for farming purposes is already well proven and as well as the relocation of these rogue reptiles. Prevention is better than cure in this case, but you will get the odd dopey human that will line themselves up to be a hot lunch.

O yes! The human IQ. If its bites, kill it!

These creatures are the true examples of evolutions flawless design. A few degree,s in temperature will determine whether or not male or females hatchings takes place and CSIRO have the situation well in hand.
I don't know how the government will go about educating guests from overseas, and it seems the Asian people are high on the list for takeaway.
So it all comes down too education!

EV
Posted by EVO, Friday, 10 October 2008 8:18:07 PM
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*A media report advises that "Queensland Environment Minister Andrew McNamara rejected the calls to cull crocodiles, saying they were misplaced.*
Dickey

Perhaps as usual it might have been better to talk to locals.

*Tough luck for the cattle?*

Really and all this time you had me thinking you liked farm animals.
Blimey and you call Yabby hard- theres a twist.
Farmers have a right to protect their stock. Have you ever seen a cow, calf taken by a croc Dickie?
Not pretty . I most certainly know whos side I am on under such circumstances.

As I said Crocs and snakes are protected mainly due to the Australian Zoo infulence. ( Its all very hip)

There`s an old croc called Aurther just out of Cains. He killed a lady years ago but hes still fee to visit the tourists.

He gets right up along side the flat bottom boat with the little kids hanging over the side.
It plays cat and mouse with the boat operator. Each time he drives the boat towards him Auther goes further to shore BUT he inches in closer every time he returns.

Sooner or later hes going to take another person.

He doesnt even have to jump far``` only stretch his neck.
This is madness of the Government.

I agree take the eggs and relocate the ones we can. There are heaps of Crocs around dont you worry about that. In some places they DO come into peoples back yards and towns.

I also like to see the country kids being able to have a safe area to swim on a 48% day.
The poor little buggers cant do that anymore because of Crocs in many areas.
For the record I care more about aboriginal kids being 'safe' than putting Crocs first- or any people kids that matter.

As well as tourists keep the state going and provide work for regional people.

Common sense must come into all this love of Crocs.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 10 October 2008 8:28:53 PM
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Hasbeen,
Don't you think you went a bit over the top, or maybe the topend?
People have to take due care in the enviroment in which they are.

I don't live in the city but I do know that responsible people don't let their kids play ball near a freeway, motorway or busy road. They would not let their kid jump a fence into a junkyard to retrieve a ball because savage dogs generally guard them. Knowledgeable people don't go swimming in Parramatta river because they know there are lots of Bull sharks there. Only a fool would allow his kids to chase each other around on the top of North Head or Point Perpendicular.

Most areas have hazards to life or limb and ultimately it is our own responsibility to take note of those hazards and take proper precautions.

When I go to NQ I am happy to swim in the pool at the pub or resort.

People that go camping where there are crocs or live there can make their own assesment of the risks. Then adjust their activities accordingly.
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 10 October 2008 8:51:06 PM
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Hi PALE! Your forgetting one small thing. The indigenous people have been living here for 60 thousand years or so, and your telling me people know nothing about the dangers? come on.

It was only when the white man came along( with their poisons ) that they have stopped the( living with the land ) traditional teachings. If you add up all the attacks over the past 50 years, and compare it with the whole history of the aboriginal culture, you find the numbers are very similar.

To understand how these creatures work, will help tourists to better understand the dangers.

If it wasn't for the indigenous people warning captain cook and his buddies, there would of been a lot more of them missing, and the education bell rings out once again.

EVO
Posted by EVO, Friday, 10 October 2008 9:27:00 PM
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Why is there a need for a cull? It is very rare for anybody to be taken by a crocodile. Amongst all the chances of being accidentally killed whilst camping, taken by a crocodile would be at the bottom.

Anybody who has grown up or lived in a non-urban environment knows and understands the particular dangers from wildlife and learns what are acceptable risks and what not. And frankly, that is what makes these areas so attractive.

It is visitors who are more vulnerable, like the hapless camper up NQ.

Cities also have their particular dangers generally better understood by the locals.

Sorry, Hasbeen, the only twit so far, has been you. What an over the top tirade.
Posted by Anansi, Saturday, 11 October 2008 1:37:33 AM
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Grahamy: "Fractelle, on the basis of your argument we should all just lie down and die, because apart from somewhere in the African savannah, man is a relatively recent arrival in most areas."

Have you not heard of ‘Live and Let Live’? Part of that means not breeding to the point where no other species can live. And why on earth do you want to invade the crocs’ territory anyway? Stay in Brisbane.

The number of deaths by crocodile is miniscule, only occurs when the hapless human goes into their territory. And correct me if I am wrong, I do believe that death by car accident exceeds death-by-croc to a point where I really question your point in even raising this discussion thread at all.

Col Rouge "That is until they (crocodiles?) evolve sufficiently to take their rightful place alongside those who generally stand upright and carry the heavy burden of environmental management."

ROFL

That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. Do you even understand what an ecosystem is?

…it is a community of plants, animals and smaller organisms that live, feed, reproduce and interact in the same area or environment. Some ecosystems are very large. EG, many bird species nest in one place and feed in a completely different area. On the other hand, some ecosystems may be physically small, such as you would find in a field next to a forest, or in a coral reef in the ocean.

How does everything fit together in a forest ecosystem versus a field ecosystem? While some species may be found naturally in both areas, the species that live in the forest ecosystem are usually very different from those that inhabit the meadow, even though the two environments are right next to each other. In other words, if we protect existing natural habitats, we will help to maintain biodiversity (biodiversity is the variety of life in all its forms, levels and combinations). Unfortunately, natural habitats and their ecosystems are more and more endangered because of the damaging environmental effects of growing human populations everywhere.(http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/kids/ecosystem.php)

Capiche?
Posted by Fractelle, Saturday, 11 October 2008 8:50:56 AM
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PALEIF:

It is not the fact that the problem is created by our "love of crocodiles" but by our lack of recognition that these creatures were here long before us and of the inherant dangers posed by them, however they are entitled to share this planet accordingly. Man dose NOT have the right to exterminate everything he considers to be a threat!

We all have enough ( or should have enough ) brains to realize the dangers lurking in most of the world`s tropical waters and should excercise the commonsense and caution required accordingly.

Look at the trauma wrought by Bluebottle Jellyfish, Stonefish, Sharks etc upon the human participation in sharing these rivers and oceans with these potential killer species,.....BUT let us not lose sight of the fact that the human being himself has been responsible for the MAJORITY of human fatalities on this planet throughout history!

I believe that if a professed "extinct" carnivorous Dinosaur were to be discovered "surviving" in some faraway isolated place on the planet, man`s immediate response would be to kill it, as it would be envisioned as a monster that eats people, so Destroy, Kill, Eradicate!

I believe in live and let live!....and if people are silly enough to take stupid short-sighted risks in dangerous waters, then they must be prepared to suffer the consequences!

I quote a famous statement by the late Albert Einstein:
"Two things are INFINITE,....the Universe and Human stupidity,...and I am not sure about the Universe!"
Posted by Cuphandle, Saturday, 11 October 2008 9:04:42 AM
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Col Rouge: << ...those who generally stand upright and carry the heavy burden of environmental management >>

I don't suppose Col would like to nominate a part of Australia that has been well-managed in environmental terms? It seems to me that the quality of "environmental management" in Australia has declined markedly since about 1788.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 11 October 2008 9:19:10 AM
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GrahamY

Thank you so much for raising this thread. It has encouraged me to learn a little more about the Aussie croc market. And silly me, believing that a troublesome croc would be taken to a farm to live out its life. No indeed not for it is slaughtered almost immediately and sold to the highest bidder except for one or two to keep the tourists amused.

The harvesting of the croc is indeed a lucrative business but it appears that many are disgruntled at the current allowable quotas.

“There ’s very little waste from the crocodile, that ’s for sure, ”says John Hannon from the Lagoon Crocodile Farm in the NT. “People even make back scratchers out of the claws. If you go to some of the souvenir shops you might see them on the end of a piece of dowel. Akubra buys a lot of our off-cuts. There ’s a back strap that runs down the back of the crocodile which is used to make belts.

"And the off-cuts from the back strap are often used for hat bands for Akubra hats."

The Hannons have developed a niche market for their first-grade skins with the prestigious French fashion house, Hermes. For over 30 years, Hermes has been producing a particular handbag called the ‘Kelly ’bag (after Grace Kelly) which retails for US$15, 000.

“We ’d also like to get an AQIS [Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service ] licence so we could sell our crocodile meat direct to the European market." Said John Hannon.

“There is now a marketing wing of DPI who are trying to look at helping the industry in terms of marketing our product,”

Lo and behold, the Department of Planning and Industry are performing research on “hatching to harvest,” “skin preservation,” “pelleted feed” and commercial development of export for the “emerging skin markets.” Of course marketing research doesn’t stop with our crocs.

The DPI are also are looking at potential markets for our frogs and turtles!

contd.....
Posted by dickie, Saturday, 11 October 2008 12:52:30 PM
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Contd.......

The EPA Qld advises: "The crocodile farming industry is evolving rapidly and it is inevitable that stock-handlers will encounter circumstances not covered by this code.

"Farms generate interest in crocodilians and their conservation and, in the right location, tourism can make a substantial contribution to farm income.

"However, developing a farm to accommodate visitors will incur significant additional expenses and will also have a cost in terms of animal stress and production.

"Therefore, it is recommended to open only part of a farm to visitors."

Good idea EPA. We can't have the kiddies traumatised by witnessing the slaughtering methods your department recommends:

“ The use of lethal drugs is uncommon because they are expensive and may render the meat unfit for human consumption.

“Mechanical stunning instruments, traditionally used in livestock slaughter, are not recommended for use with crocodiles.

“Shooting is capable of causing the minimum of disturbance and stress both to the individual.

“In some circumstances, other crocodiles do not appear to notice that any management activity is taking place. In all cases, the spinal cord should be severed once an animal is removed from the enclosure.

"The other mechanical method commonly used, the ‘nape-stab’, involves the physical restraint of the crocodile and, usually, its removal from the rearing enclosure. Wet, heavy material is placed over the animal's eyes and its head is lowered in a downward position to extend the neck vertebrae.

"A sharp chisel-like implement is then quickly forced between the base of the skull and the first spinal vertebrae, severing the spinal cord, in order to ensure that the animal is unconscious.

"It is then essential that a rod of about 3mm diameter (ideally stainless steel) be used to probe and totally destroy the brain (pithing).

"It is an advantage to skinning if the spinal column is destroyed similarly, preventing local reflex actions.”

Graham. Has your opinion been influenced by the commercial and economic viability of slaughtering our native animals?
Posted by dickie, Saturday, 11 October 2008 1:33:21 PM
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Graham,

Sharks or crocodiles - you go into the water, you takes your chances .

Just a bit more fun and adrenalin in the bush around those beautiful rivers and waterholes .

Hey kids, better look out for that king brown!
Posted by kartiya jim, Saturday, 11 October 2008 3:40:56 PM
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Cuphandle,
I dont have a problem with Crocs personally, but I do think everyone should consider those who do live near Croc waters.
I can assure you they have moved into areas where it was once safe to swim.
Last year I was talking to a local while looking a croc in the eye. He was telling me about the old days and the towns history.
Described how hard it was to get the kids to school because unlike him they couldnt just swim accross the river anymore due to crocs. Its was a stinking hot day and these children had nothing to do and nowhere to swim.
Thats simply not fair on the local people. He said he couldnt let the kids play out back anymore either.
Snakes were there in plenty also
I just wonder how long all you people would cry leave the Crocs alone if they were effecting your kids life.
If the Government want to protect snakes and crocs in areas where people are trying to live they should provide croc free and snake free play areas for the children.
I repeat its a pity Australian zoo doesnt highlight the plight of farm animals.

I wonder what the Government would do if Australian zoo stood up for the pigs in intensive farms or the poultry or live exports as well as crocs and snakes.

I do not think farmers should have to loose their stock through crocs either+ I think its cruel to allow that to happen!.

Its not simply life its discusting none cares these calves cows horses goats etc are left to fend for themselves and die such an awful death.

Nobody deserves to die like that- not the aboriginal kids or the tourists or the farm animals.

Control is required in places where you have people and farm animals.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 11 October 2008 11:09:40 PM
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Pale. Australia has the most deadliest creatures on the planet. all crocs do, is eat,swim and make little crocs, and the only rules they abide by is survival.
If people want to live in these areas, they make that choice of their own free will and they except the risks accordlingly with the knowledge of the dangers. As for cows and sheep, I think they should be aloud to have a little snack every now and again, just to remind people to back off and stay out of their habitat.

The service they do for the environment is far more important an livestock. I like to look at them as a border line security force to keep out unwanted human pests, and like the sharks, their the vacuum clears for anything or one that is stupid enough to bite off more than can chew! so to speak.
I guess if there cute and cuddly, they get a first class ticket of your attention! ALL THINGS HAVE A RIGHT TO LIVE! and in a balanced fashion.
To give a dopey cow which out numbers the crocs a hundred thousand to one is just ridicules! and they out rank the evolution spot 300 million years compared to 40 million the cows and sheep have got up their sleeves!

We can take measures to ensure our safety and well being, oh and your cows!

THEY CANT!

EVO
Posted by EVO, Sunday, 12 October 2008 1:50:33 AM
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Evo

Dont snap at me, I said to relocate eggs AND Crocs to areas where they dont present a threat.

Lets hear from a Aboriginal Elder=

I lived for the first six years of my life in a mud brick house up the hill a bit from a creek in the Northern Territory. I remember the water as black and very deep. I remember as a child jumping as far into the middle of that creek as I could, and staying there as long as I could.

When it came time to get out, my aboriginal friends and I would scramble up the step muddy banks as quickly as we could. We were frightened of the little yabbies that lived in the holes in the mud.

When I returned to Coomalie Creek for the first time just last year, the water was just as black as I remembered it. But that swimming hole was deserted. There was no path through the bamboo to the water’s edge.

When I showed the current owner of the property where we used to swim she was incredulous, “There are crocodiles.” she said.

I wonder why I was frightened of the yabbies and not the crocodiles when I was a kid?

My siblings and I made toy boats from styrene foam. We would spend hours swimming with our boats in the Mary River with the platypus. The water was so clear and also so shallow that we could see every pebble on the bottom of the stream.

Evo

The problem is with some greenies they have no idea how to manage the bush.

Thats why we have so many fires now while they save the different plants.

Common sense must take first place.

Same with Crocs and People.

Its just like snakes up here. People are not allowed to kill them and they are taking over areas in our city.

I BET you would be the first one to scream if your kid was killed by a snake or a croc- wouldnt you.

Then why ask aboriginal and regional people ?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 12 October 2008 7:01:00 AM
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Pale. I wasn't snapping at you, just simply pointing out that if your big and ugly with a mouth full of teeth, your on everyone,s bad list.
They are automatically condemned for what they do naturally, and like standing in water you know their in, can only be compare it with sitting on a highway waiting for a truck to hit you!
Coexisting with the world we share, is of vital importance for all the members of the earth to respect one another's boundaries, but unfortunately human greed and stupidity is the number one factor that is causing the mass extinction at the moment.

I have more time for the flora\fauna of this planet than I have for some people. But oddly enough, we are on the same page, I just look at the bigger picture.

EVO
Posted by EVO, Sunday, 12 October 2008 10:19:57 AM
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EVO

The bigger picture? Really
Do tell me when you ever lived there + your personal knowledge.
You cant allow the things to breed to the point they are destroying peoples lives.

Isnt it time to consider our aboriginal people.

Its only when a tourist goes missing that you hear about these cases.

What you dont know is how the other half live while your safe in your backyard others are not.

As for you stupid personal comments EVO we stand up not only for animals but to do the right thing by Australians as well.

Sure! we are disliked by the animal libers who raise funds to keep themselves in a job while doing nothing to improve animal welfare.

If you care about Animals you must also be sensible and care for people too.

and Vise Visa. Anyway wasnt it you who said you wanted crocs left alone to keep out unwanted vistors.

I suppose you also think its cool to close all the stock plants and allow the bush to store up fuel for fires that kill both people and animals.

When you take the time to actually talk to people whos lives are effected by Crocs like we have let me know.

They are important but no more important than looking after people living in regional areas.

These things are coming into towns now due to a lack of control.

Again I say pity the good people at the oz Zoo didnt show as much concern for farm animals.

You remind me of good old Dr Harry with his great love of all Animals= And his silence about intensive farming and the barbaric live animal exports.

Thats whats really ugly.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 13 October 2008 3:40:49 AM
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Pale. Your argument is moot! I would suggest you go and read the thread again. I too have lived in NQ, happily fishing for barra, with crocs either side of me, and believe me, they took no interest in me what so ever. Crocs mainly feed at night and are total opportunists. I fort with a floundering barramundi for ten minuets before one of them finally got off its fat lazy bottom to check out what all the excitement was,( It didnt get my fish ) then proceeded to swim past the boat and back to its sun baking.

Splashes, like children playing, will set them off every time. Where are the parents of these kids you talk about? obviously not with the mind of supervision or teaching!

You say, that crocs are walking down the street!lol I would like to see that.
The currant system is working fine and what I and others have said, stands! I guess if you don't like where you live, move.

The crocs are here to stay! Deal with it.

EVO
Posted by EVO, Monday, 13 October 2008 4:18:41 PM
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*The DPI are also are looking at potential markets for our frogs and turtles!*

Posted by dickie,

If the DPI are looking at Cane Toads good luck to them- Frogs and Turtles is another matter all together.

I havent seen it but its probably some of the ideas put forth by Aboriginal people- Is it?

I agree that would be very sad as they are not hurting anybody and very much a part of our system.



EVO
*I too have lived in NQ, happily fishing for barra, with crocs either side of me, and believe me, they took no interest in me what so ever.*

Evo

hilarious, but it’s all a bit of fun reading your post. I assure you Crocs are ~very ~territorial`` so old jaws would have been checking you out big time:). Sometimes they stalk their prey for days weeks even months.

I would suggest if your story is true you’re a very lucky girl as well as a foolish one but at least you have brought a smile to my face so thanks for that anyway.

Its a pity you dont have the same compassion for the poor old farm and animals and the barra you were happily fishing for.

*You say, that crocs are walking down the street!lol I would like to see that.*

In which case I suggest you look for it under old media R. Its not as uncommon as you think .

I might add I am not personally affected by Crocs s.The only see one I have is in my indoor pool on the Gold Coast. I do keep an eye on him however.

I get upset for the children in the areas where they cant swim because those kids have so little to do and to have a swim is not too much to ask on a 48 degree day imo.

I will put a child before A croc anyday 'especially' an aboriginal child.

Anyway sounds to be you should apply for a job as a croc Whisper with your talent:)

Either that or buy yourself a lotto ticket.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 4:51:18 AM
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Pale,

I would have imagined Aboriginal People could legally kill crocs anyway, to use for food.

Any profits from culling should go to them .
Posted by kartiya jim, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 8:04:03 AM
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Pale. Your not getting paranoid are you?lol and i see your doing a bit of gender fishing as well. As for croc whispering, I AM MAN, BEAR, PIG! but only in the wild:). I leave my gender open for interpretation so a level playing field is assured, but my partner and I work together as a team! I type, and she spells.:)

The problem is with just words on a screen, is that there is no body language or tone to read from, and people can quickly jump to conclusions. In the real world( off screen ) no-one would dare speak to which to the like on another thread that is running, to anyone during a face to face conversation.

Your a good sport pale, and a little light humor is good for us all.

Cause it does get a little heated up around here when emotions run, and don't forget, everyone is right:) People really need to take it easy! the world is NOT going to end, ever! we will have our time on this earth and then something else will take our place.
This is how its always been.

We just give a little food for thought, and at the end of the day, we all switch off our computers and go home.

And this is the way it should be.

All the best

EVO
Posted by EVO, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 2:29:59 PM
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As a youngster growing up on an island in PNG during the 1960's we were given the most graphic lesson when a brother and sister were taken by crocodile(s) one afternoon on their way home from school.

Very next morning the school principal and the District Commissioner paraded all of us in the school and we went down to the site of the attack - drag marks still evident in the mud and sand only hours after the event. The memory still chills me even 40 yrs later.

Horses for courses, at this time in history crocs were being culled. So like road tolls alluded to in my earlier post on this thread, H - sapiens efforts are only really successful if the 'CDF Factor' is applied in liberal doses.

Most available studies in principle agree with, or are in favour of limited culling - google search Dr Graham Webb. The custodial/traditional owners of the lands involved should benefit from the safari type proposals. The gene pool diversity concerns for the saurians involved are quite minor in the scheme of things.

Safety of humans in the areas - yeah we kill off each other with monotonous regularity via other means... but no one really gets as emotive about vehicular deaths as they do with sharks, crocs, stingers etc.

Let's get real hey?
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 4:07:38 AM
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kartiya jim,

Hi There. Pretty much I guess. There is a movement at the moment among some Aboriginal People since Rudd said sorry to re gain control.

It’s not only for mining rights but everything.
I have a video of the man here somewhere.

When I find it I will see if there’s a link and pop it up for you.

Crocs got a mention in it as well. I am told UK flew out a high profile lawyer to defend the claim that Aboriginal people never gave up their claim to the country….

As usual not a peep of it on the media. Kevin probably worries he shouldn’t of said – sorry.

Anyway I am drifting up stream. So getting back to Crocs-

Albie Manton in Darwin seems to have some first experience.
I agree Sharks and crocs are not the nicest ways to go.

EVO, Evo Evo

Don’t leave us!

You’re a hoot.

Do you know how long it`s taken us to find someone with a SOH on this site.
Anytime your up this way pop in and we will do a spot of fishing ah.
Just don’t tell the libbers:)

I thought you might enjoy this link about the ‘Lucky Country’

http://www.ozshots.com/20020906_Crocodiles/

Come on, – Tell us some more gone fishing stories-

‘ pretty please’
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 7:27:55 AM
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Just came across this interesting article about a crocodile stalking building workers. http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=647116&rss=yes.

If I'm disentangling the anthropomorphism of the journalism correctly from the facts, by removing a dominant male by killing it, the territorial balance has been upset and this makes crocodiles more aggressive for a while as they re-establish territorial boundaries.

I'm assuming that crocs don't get emotional about other crocs, so the nascent love story here is just that! Or do we have to revise the meaning of "crocodile tears"?
Posted by GrahamY, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 9:35:53 AM
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Pale! Go fishing up there! Bugger that! Too many crocodiles.

Graham. Conservation verses human overpopulation.mmmmmm! It would seem the mob rules on this one. Sustainability of these creatures I will agre with, cause we cant have any more unnecessary deaths dew to stupidity now, can we? Lets look into the future for just a moment. Lets say the human population at the top-end doubles in the next 20years, and it will, where will the crocs go!

You may as well kill them all now and save everyone the problem. Australia Zoo will be the only safe place for them as human beings go around saying this is mine and that is mine and not to mention anything else that gets in our way.

Its funny that no-one talks about human sustainability, isn't it! Without doubt, we are going to eat this planet alive! 20 billion people is enough for this fragile continent and with all the other factors of global change, the next 50years will be a big wake up call for all us. mark my words.

Another rock and a hard place debate.

EVO
Posted by EVO, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 5:25:35 PM
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Million! not billion. Sorry! Its been a hard day. Albie from Darwin! See! education does work. The man\woman is still alive! and your post makes a good point. Thanks.

EVO
Posted by EVO, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 5:43:22 PM
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A little story about the famous "sweetheart" ,a 28 footer that lived near Darwin a few years ago . Believe he is now stuffed as an exhibit.

He was partial to a bit of tinny; perhaps as bark canoes are seldom seen these days.

Perhaps his eyesight was a bit off - anyway, a fisherman friend recounted his moment of terror as he and his mate , their rifle and all their gear went into the water when their boat was ferociously attacked by the big fella getting hold of their outboard motor.

This big, rough, European NT Australian went back to his Bible lessons in noting his next movements, and presumably those of his friend as they headed for the safety of the bank .

"I walked on water "!

Funny, I never did see him swim .
Posted by kartiya jim, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 10:00:00 PM
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kartiya jim,

Hey thanks, a good story :)

So what do you think about having some lakes cleared of Crocs in areas where the regional farmers live to allow the kids have a swim Katrina Jim?

You know what I mean- Start relocating the eggs etc. I am not talking about mass murder or anything. I get very cross knowing how hot it gets up there and let’s face it these are not city kids.

They don’t have much else to do in summer. Don’t you think we should make sure they have at least one safe swimming hole?

Graham
Yes that is an interesting story and I have heard similar.

The big Croc I mentioned Author took over from an old giant called George.

It wasn’t their first scrap but finally he won the area.

The locals have never seen George again.

He could be dead or simply left.

EVO,

No mate, no Crocs up here at all.

They are all white sharks wearing sneakers.

Perhaps you might prefer to go out in a tiny with kartiya Jim, and his buddy.

I am sure they would feel much safer next time having a real Croc whisperer along with them ah.

(As they say safety in numbers :)

Oh and I head a WSPA that Crocs can count too.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 16 October 2008 10:50:30 AM
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