LEIGH , Not so, there is nothing wrong with helping people be it with money , love, or anything else but you need to have the brains and desire to get the delivery right.
We had a system of self help for Aboriginal People with ATSIC ,it did have a few hiccups , but it was producing leaders .Howard ditched it because it posed another set of Political problems for him and his mates.

Kartiya,

I am surprised that anyone can still believe that ATSIC was anything but a dysfunctional organization, which was, and still is, surrounded in controversy and reports of mismanagement and worse which lead to its demise following a legitimate investigation by the Howard Government prompted, in no small way, by indigenous people themselves.

As you say, it produced ‘leaders’. But whether these people were truly representative of their people is open to debate, as was their ‘brains and desire to get the delivery right’.

The kudos of some of the aboriginal hierarchy seems to have benefited. But how did the ordinary blackfella benefit from ATSIC? If you have any specific examples, I would be interested to learn of them. You blame ‘Howard’ and ‘his mates’ for the situation so, presumably, you have some knowledge I don’t.

You say that there is nothing wrong with helping people, and you are perfectly right. But we have been helping with money (lots of money) and other practical help and understanding for generations. The ‘brains’ part of your qualification has, perhaps, been lacking. Even with all this help from governments, individuals and NGO’s, nothing has really changed for aboriginal Australians who have not gone out and done it for themselves

Leigh, if you remember that the last truly stone age "bush" Aboriginals came in only 22 years ago. Because previous generations were rejected as equals and not encouraged to get educated they are naturally behind in many areas of development [according to white standards].
ATSIC to me allowed young and old Aboriginals to briefly experience something like Democracy and gave many a chance to use their Education in a changeing world that could forgive them for bringing on occasion problems to their job that needed some understanding.It was a start.
I guess if Mal is fair dinkum he should take a lead off his Army mates who are considering not prohibiting a few tatts and occasional drug use in the Army new recruits, and work with those Aboriginals keen enough to put their hands up to have a go to help their communities.They will learn and they will get better .

Kartiya,

Thanks. You say; “Leigh, if you remember that the last truly stone age "bush" Aboriginals came in only 22 years ago. Because previous generations were rejected as equals and not encouraged to get educated they are naturally behind in many areas of development…”

Sorry, but I don’t grasp the significance or relevance of the first sentence in relation to 200 plus years of interaction between indigenous people and white settlers, and I have to admit that I do not recall the incident, though I am in my early 60’s. Previous generations were treated in many instances badly by some people and were not thought of as being ‘equal’, certainly not legally, until one of the few referenda to receive a positive response from most Australians 40 odd years ago. Neither of these things addresses specific achievements by ATSIC for aboriginals.

You say that ATSIC “briefly” allowed aboriginal people, young and old, to experience democracy and use their education. Where is the evidence of this? What education? There is evidence on public record that many, many people received anything but democracy from ATSIC; and, as you say, older generations have no education for the modern world. The young ones, particularly in the remote settlements go to school only if they want to, and those lucky enough to enjoy the protection and encouragement of women elders have been sent to metropolitan schools with which they have agreements, and to schools and hostels specifically for aboriginal kids; if they return to the settlements, even that counts for nothing.

No help or interest from ATSIC, as my wife, who has taught these kids and knows the women involved, could tell you.

I believe that the Minister is ‘fair dinkum’. Even if you don’t like his politics, he is the Minister, and we didn’t see anything amazing from the Opposition when they were in government. And, there will be no aboriginals putting their hands up in remote communities for the Minister to work with.

The remote communities are the problem, encouraging lethargy and despair. They must go for any progress to even begin

Leigh,
many Aboriginal people had new jobs with ATSIC and there were elections and i believe there still are in the Land Councils, which would have been an education in themselves for them .
Until this Government is prepared to make Indigenous Affairs a stand alone Ministry [ no pun intended ] John Howard will be seen around the world and particularly in Asia and the Pacific as having dismally failed Australians, being the PM incapable of bringing Aboriginal Reconciliation to all Australians.
What sort of example must he and the Government be setting to our newly arrived immigrants ?
As for the remote communities ,I know of a teacher who arrived to teach a problem school in the NT . Unable to get to his pupils in the classroom ,he decided to interact with them outside the school and with a combination of sport and Indigenous appreciation he gained their trust and attention .
A bit of lateral thinking for and by the communities is required , not putting them and the retention of Aboriginal Culture, as the Government has done, in the "too hard basket"

Kartiya,

With respect, you are not answering my questions. I made it clear that if there was something I was not aware of, and you could put me in the right direction, I might arrive at a different point of view. You have not done that.

You have not elaborated on the ‘stone age’ aborigines ‘coming in’ 22 years ago. You have not told me where to find this event; even though it is irrelevant to your argument, you did use it! You have not shown me how young and old aborigines used their education or ‘experienced something like Democracy’. You contradicted yourself on the matter of education.

In your last post, you said, ‘Many people had new jobs with ATSIC.’ Who had jobs, apart from high-profile so-called leaders who got into more trouble than Ned Kelly – some of whom still face the courts? There are still Land Councils, but that is not ATSIC. What makes you believe foreign countries will see John Howard (you really dislike him, don’t you) as having ‘dismally failed Australians’? As for reconciliation, he has made it quite clear why he will not move on that (rightly or wrongly), and the electorate seems to accept his explanation. It is impossible to see how the PM has ‘dismally failed Australians’ in this matter, and I doubt that foreign countries, including those in our region, care too much about what we do here.

You seem strong on opinion, and short on facts to back up your claims. As Patrick Buchanan said, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own set of facts. You go one further – you don’t produce facts at all.

Discussion is good, but we have run out of puff on this one. Nothing has been gained, and we will have to agree to disagree. We are probably on different sides of the fence politically, but remember who set up the apartheid system of remote settlements in the first place: the ALP.

Cheers.