*This critical piece of information was buried in the fine print and not pointed out to the loan recipients. I don't know about you, Hasbeen, but that's certainly a scam in my book.*

Bronwyn, in my book, you are being rather naive about the world
and how it functions out there.

Yes, the business world is full of scoundrels. Duh. I've seen
many a public servant lose their retirement savings, when they
join the real world and the sharks move in. That is the reality
of business for you, you learn it earlier or later in life, usually
the hard way.

What it comes down to is what is legal? Either companies and agents
broke the law or they did not break the law. Politicians are the
ones who are meant to formulate laws, so that people, even the stupid,
are protected from scoundrels.

I simply do not believe that no politician knew about what was going
on and if they did know and did nothing about it, they were not doing
their job.

The reality is that business is not the Salvation Army. It works
on the basis of what is legal, not what is moral. That is the
reality, like it or not.

Those at fault are those at the top, under whose watch these schemes
took place and who had the power to change the law and did nothing.

Those who claimed to look after Joe sixpack and his vote and then
who ingnored him, once in office. Also those gullible enough to
vote for those dummies, who are now learning the hard way.

Politicians are at fault here, apart from anyone who broke the law,
who should be charged accordingly.

Yabby

"Bronwyn, in my book, you are being rather naive about the world and how it functions out there."

Yes, Yabby, and in my book, you are being rather patronizing, as per usual.

You accuse me of being naive in blaming the banks. And yet it could equally be described as naive to absolve the banks and blame the government, as you have done.

"What it comes down to is what is legal? Either companies and agents broke the law or they did not break the law. Politicians are the ones who are meant to formulate laws, so that people, even the stupid, are protected from scoundrels."

Politicians had indeed formulated laws, after the Great Depression, and very good ones too. These prevented, as they were meant to, any reoccurrence of the 1930s crash. They served the American people well, until gradually dismantled over the last two decades as a direct result of the relentless lobbying and massive political donations on the part of the banks.

Interestingly, one of the main drivers behind the repeal of these laws was the man currently co-chairing John McCain's election campaign. This man was actively lobbying right up until 2004 when the last of the states removed legislation preventing predatory lending. So yes, I agree, weak governments are at fault, but it is the banks that twisted their arms and greased their palms.

"The reality is that business is not the Salvation Army. It works on the basis of what is legal, not what is moral. That is the reality, like it or not."

Yes, Yabby, I've read enough of your posts to know that is certainly your reality.

Well as expected the bail out took place.
It will not fix it.
It did not bail out the world or America but it was the only choice.
We may suffer much more yet but post this American election, you can put money on it, many who bought this about will fall.
Just maybe the home of capitalism will understand in lending money you must have better ways than this to retrieve it.
Greed will not die and world wide Joe and Joan average will continue to pay for others greed.
In other threads that did not attract much interest I spoke about the failure of capitalism.
The Socialization of dept and the non taxing of some profits how truly honestly, rotten in a country that fail hundreds of thousands of true poor.
And focus for a second on the American health system, how it is said to fix it would be socialism.
We are about to see, after this election much pain much change and much fear bought about by a system that one day will fail.

Socialism won't fix it Belly.It was Bill Clinton who deregulated their Banking system.The much tighter regulation evolved out of the Great depression.The Bush Administration just perpetuated the lie,thinking that the financial system could produce real wealth to finance the war in Iraq.That cost them a $ 1 trillion.

The way out is to get the USA back to real productivity,import less from OS and make Govt smaller and a lot more efficient.In reality the US has plenty of energy,with coal,shale oil,and the oil of their own and what can be bought from Canada.They also have to reform their legal system as we do since it is costing a fortune in insurances.Our system is basically sound.The rules need improving.There needs to be more competition amongst the Global Businesses.Too few own resources and the energy.This is adding to inflation.There needs to be some international rules that see people in poor countries being paid a basic wage.They should be able to afford to buy the goods they produce.

In NSW we have seen a very wasteful incompetent Govt take too much from the real economy.The result is that we have a housing shortage,insufficient infrastructure,and a state broke.They are getting far less tax as a result.Starved of funds,unemployment is rising and we too are spiralling backwards.

Both the Russians and Chinese have moved toward a market economy.Cringing into socialism will see a lot more poverty.

Re Bronwyn's post of October 4th, "weak governments are at fault, but it is the banks that twisted their arms and greased their palms.'
Isn't it about time that 'greasing of palms' was given its correct name: bribery and corruption?

*So yes, I agree, weak governments are at fault,*

Well that was exactly my point. If politicians are so weak, to
just cave in to lobbyists, they should not be in office. If
people keep voting them in, people have themselves to blame.

*I've read enough of your posts to know that is certainly your reality.*

You have no idea what my morality is. In this case you are simply
trying to shoot the messenger.

Most of the banks involved seem to have been investment banks, as
distinct from regulated banks, in other words banks in name only.
Bear Stearns, Lehmans etc, have now gone broke over this. Good
banks, like Wells Fargo, who are run quite differently can move
in and benefit. I see that Wells Fargo is taking over Wachovia.

So its far more complicated then trying to blame all banks.

Wall St has more sharks then the oceans do, politicians clearly
ignored this fact. Their heads should be on the chopping block.