This thread is just hilarious, the resolutely religious telling atheists what atheism is.... on other threads there are an equally resolute bunch of males telling feminists what feminism is.

Pericles why don't you just tell George et al what being religious is; you know, for a little balance.

In levels of sophistry however, the religious are far more adept than the angry men's club on the gender war threads. So kudos religious people.

Human beings are so funny.

I do think I have found a picture of god:

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2007/12/18/Joker460.jpg

Pericles,

“What does "a theist who rejects all formal religion" believe that his God wants of him? There would on the face of it seem little point in actually taking the trouble to believe in a God unless a set of rules came along with it. Surely?”

You should argue it with them. At risk of not doing them justice I believe that they would say that they believe that there must be a God but can’t imagine that he would be so petty as to worry about a bunch of rules that you tend to get with formal religion.

>>And my point is that he claimed to be a witness... He says he spoke with Jesus<<

”But the fact is, there is no corroborating evidence that he did anything of the sort. So if he lied about that, what else did he invent?”

The lack of corroborating evidence doesn’t result in an inescapable conclusion that the witness is lying. As I have pointed out he appeared to be quite candid.

“>>there is good reason to think he believed that he was a witness<<

That wouldn't stand up in court either, would it?”

It is hard to imagine it being in court.

But if it was I don’t know. It seems to make sense that a witness experiencing a supernatural experience might be acceptable for a decision on a supernatural matter.

“"Er, not exactly. But it was a pretty realistic dream. You know, the one where you think you're falling, and you wake up..."”

He didn’t claim it was a dream. Some dream! Surely dreams don’t normally blind you afterward.

”Let's take this back to first principles, it may help.”

So you have been on the planet Mars and you don’t believe my story. If you never give it another thought that would be it and you may never hear the word “atheist” and may never decide to have the “atheist” belief. However if you aren’t on Mars and do claim to be an atheist surely you believe there is no God.

CONT (possibly after delay due to post numbers)

(possibly not)

”I haven't become a serial killer, I haven't joined NAMBLA (that's Boaz's favourite, by the way), I haven't become any less tolerant of fools, I haven't become more prone to vice or disease, I do not feel any different, or think any differently, from before you let me in on your little secret.”

You must know that most atheists would share those characteristics and not all religious (including some many would label fundies) are wonderful people, avoiding all sin, being intolerant, or having God cure them from vice or disease.

Veronika,

“I'm sure they did, but the Bible is more than biased. It's a book of faith, a book that's intended to convert and persuade.”

Actually it is a collection of early Christian writings. Some of them were books on the life of Christ. Others were letters sent to fellow Christians. Personally I’d consider them intended to teach rather than convert because parts at least were aimed at people who had already converted.

“I understand that you don't agree and respect your position, but surely you realise that I'm not the only one who rejects it as a credible historical document in terms of proving Christ was really the son of god?”

Ditto and yes.

Celivia,

I like your hobby illustration and it is a nice change from hobbits. It illustrates the difference between Pericles martian experience and atheists. Naturally a club isn’t necessary to have a belief just a belief.

So guys, if there was no need to avoid the term “atheist fundamentalist”, over a few drinks together would you admit that atheism is a belief that there is no God?

mjbp, I tried hard, I really did.

Unfortunately, I didn't understand a single point that you were trying to make in that last pair of posts of yours.

But please, don't worry.

It is not your fault, it is just me.

(That's the famous "I'm breaking up with you" line, in case you didn't recognize it.)

George: So, Veronika, please accept my apologies."

No problem. Thank you for extending them. I hope you can see *why* you came across as condescending. I usually find the very act of feeling superior to someone else is confirmation that I am in fact the very opposite.

George: "I think I finally got what caused these misunderstandings. I did not keep in mind that "belief" can mean not only (i) "an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists", but also (ii) a religious conviction (faith). Your "lack of belief" apparently refers to the second meaning..."

No. No no no no no no. It refers to the first meaning.

As with mjpb, I think we're in a deadlock. I can't express it any better and I can't say the same thing over and over again. I urge you to reflect on it rather than continue to try to reframe it. As CJ said earlier, it's not as complicated as you're making it out to be.

Mjpb: "So guys, if there was no need to avoid the term "atheist fundamentalist", over a few drinks together would you admit that atheism is a belief that there is no God?"

You make it sound like this is a semantic game that's going to end in some "okay, you got me!" bonhomie. It's not, as least not on my behalf — I was genuinely trying to explain what atheism means, because I find it genuinely distressing that you cannot understand. I have spend decades being interested in faith, and I know I understand it, whereas you guys (and I know this is going to sound bad, so apologies in advance) seem to have constructed an intellectual roadblock in front of a fairly simple piece of reasoning.

If you interest is genuine, then perhaps reflect on it, read more, and talk to others more articulate than I.

George and mjpb,

I was just looking in the sceptics dictionary (for work, not OLO reasons), and looked up their definition of atheist. It may help you to understand: http://www.skepdic.com/atheism.html

You won't agree with it, of course, but it's written plainly and may help you comprehend what we've been on about.