David I understand what you are asking about inclusion and disenfranchisement. I did not mean to rant at you - sometimes you have that effect on me. :)

It is true that for a small minority, inclusion will be difficult where values might be strongly in contrast to the accepted norms in a democratic and open society. It takes time for both new and older Australians to reconcile new cultures and belief systems.

The difference perhaps in where you and I are coming from is that you appear to label anything Islamic as incapable of inclusion in a secular Western democracy. Whereas I believe most Muslims are happy to live side by side to others who might hold different values.

Inclusion becomes more difficult when, particularly youth, feel disenfranchised from the mainstream. If they feel discriminated against and unable to access the same opportunities as other young Australians whether it be education or work, the feelings of disconnectedness might provide ripe ground for those with spurious motives. The statistics for unemployment amongst younger Muslims is higher than other demographics.

It is important, I believe, to ensure that Muslims and Muslim communities feel included in the Australian community in the same way that other immigrants have integrated well over the last 40 years.

Dear Pleccy.. I'll try to respond to both you and Perilous in one post.
(don't worry about ranting :) I'm used to it)

"The difference perhaps in where you and I are coming from is that you appear to label anything Islamic as incapable of inclusion in a secular Western democracy."

If only it was this simple. This is a very complex issue with many dimensions and the fact that I occasionaly address only one dimension can give the impression that that is how I see the whole picture.

I have issues with the Islamic faith itself, as I've said from time to time :) and regard it as a total abomination. But this is where saying such could give the very impression you mentioned. "All things Islamic= bad"

I know it's possible to pick and choose.. select the noble values which obviously do exist within Islam..and try to accomodate those, and include the people who cherish them, such as Fellow Human to use an example.

To be honest.. 'that' kind of Muslim is neither here nor there to me. I mean.. I simply don't worry about them directly. So.. in that sense I don't adopt a position that 'all things' Islamic are bad.

Most of what I say is aimed at the other mob.. those who are represented by the likes of Hizb Ut Tahrir..and organized Islam, which includes any educational insitution, such as the proposed Camden Islamic school or the King Khalid School in Melbourne.

I examine
-'who is behind them' (ideologically and funding wise)
-'What "Islamic" position do they promote? (Wahabism/Salafism/Sufism/Ahmadiya etc)

For me, it is enough that they teach "The Quran is the dictated word of Allah"..because the next stop on that tram route is Pericles "obscure and old verses" which directly condemn me by name (by faith)

Obligatory reading Surah 9:30 and 19:88-91 Such verses are only 'obscure' to Pericles, but not to the Muslim from Saudi Arabia who read them to my face with great contemporary passion.

This seems to be missed by most of my critics :)

Polycarp, your posts more often than not make broad and blanket statements about Islam as a whole. In truth many passages of the Bible could be construed in the same way if someone were to adopt the same self-fulfilling approach.

There is no doubt that there are radical elements of Islam in the same way that there are radical elements in Christianity. George Bush invaded Iraq and he was a Christian and even used his Christianity and 'relationship' with God in his war rhetoric. Most of the Islamic world viewed the invasion of Iraq as radical and extremist but it does not mean that most Christians are potential terrorists. We know they are not. Lets apply the same reasoning to Islam.

Look at the closed sects in the Bible Belts of the US. The behaviours of some Christian sects and the inhumanity (not to mention criminal behaviour) they display to their fellow man does not create the same rage in you unless it is within an Islamic context eg. child brides.

It is easy to see through rose-coloured glasses when defending our own positions (we all do it). All I am suggesting is some perspective and self-awareness before casting a negative or suspicious eye over an entire race of people.