Haute couture, by the way, does not make money for the fashion houses. These clothes are handmade — it costs them money. Most fashion houses profit from perfume and lipstick sales. The perfume L'Air du Temps, for example, accounts for 75% of design house Nina Ricci's revenue. Most women who buy haute couture come from Saudi Arabia. Hollywood stars expect freebies, the wearing of which boosts perfume sales. This symbol of the developed world is worn in the Middle East and uses models and fabrics from the developing world. We Westerners read the magazines.

(I looked at the Conde Nast website. Vogue's tag: "It's not just a magazine, it's a muse." Neat marketing, and, for me, true — I don't *buy* the stuff it shows me, I use it for inspiration.)

More about bodies. To dramatically over-simplify the pre-feminism problem, girls learned to look at their bodies as something with which to attract others. Boys learned to use their bodies to manipulate and interpret the world around them.

Gradually, things changed. Feminism challenged culture to encourage girls to value their bodies for themselves rather than worry about how others rate them. On the other hand, anorexia is still on the increase, and more and more men now suffer from it. Boys are starting to feel similar pressures to girls. Why? Why did feminism lose this part of the battle?

Is it fashion's fault? Yes and no. Fashion is obsessed with thinness. But fashion can be a way to love one's body — if we stage a return to thinking of clothes as a way to adorn and wrap it rather than fixing the body for the clothes. This is were I think the next generation is brilliant. On the chictopia website, you can search for a blogger with your body type and see what finery they've thrifted/found/created. Chunky thigh are not be eradicated, they are a feature, to be draped. The focus is on stylishness, not babe-ishness. Looking back at my list of women in the fashion industry I admired, I realise I unconsciously chose two rather conventionally unattractive women.

Veronika

"Better a good vintage fabric than a knock-off from Target."

Absolutely.

While Haute Couture may be inspired by the street, but it is more an art fest for the fashion divas than anything for the average person.

For me clothes are a chance at creativity and independence and celebration. A subtle way of saying 'I follow the beat of a different drum'.

I don't find women realistically portrayed in either women's magazines or men's - they both present an impossible, airbrushed empty image.

So I avoid both types of mags.

Fractelle > "I don't find women realistically portrayed in either women's magazines or men's - they both present an impossible, airbrushed empty image."

This is an interesting exercise. Mentally framing everything in reference to women distorts the discussion and could mislead people to believe there is something at play when there is not. There is no need to frame this about only women.

Neither men nor women are portrayed realistically, whether it is in the entertainment industry, or advertising. And this is fine. It's a little monotonous, uncreative and boring at times but that's about it.

Once you replace the women with "people" and say to yourself, "People in general are not portrayed realistically in magazines-they both present an impossible, airbrushed empty image." You simply say, so what? I doubt a magazine that presented the reality would sell. It would be an instant failure.

Would anyone actually read a magazine that had normal, average people in them that were about beauty? It doesn't make sense does it? So this debate becomes ridiculous, but another false flag for feminists to start campainging against the whole advertising and beauty industry rather than, for example, trying an exercise regime to make themselves feel better and healthier.

Dear Steel,

And here I was thinking all of us
looked like the women in Playboy...
I know Fractelle does, so do I,
so do all of my female friends.
And the men in our lives all look like
Beckham.

Seriously, I get what you're saying.
But, there are magazines out there
for "real" women.
The Australian Women's Weekly is one.
And it is a best-seller, and always
has been. The fashion house of
Maggie T. which caters to "real"
women is just one example of fashion
that sells well and truly.

Today, it's a matter of choice - for
both women and men.

Up to a point. You still can't walk
around starkers in the street, although
some come pretty close to it. But you
can pierce all of your body parts if
you so desire.

I saw a man on Andrew Denton the other week
who was into re-shaping his body.
He had titanium horns placed into
his head and his ears had enormous
holes in the lobes, and they dangled
almost to his shoulders (like those on some
natives in Africa).
He had tattoos all over
his body - and he thought he looked
beautiful.

No one dared accuse him of being ridiculous,
not even Andrew Denton.

Foxy: "No one dared accuse him of being ridiculous,
not even Andrew Denton."

He should have.

Fractelle said "I don't find women realistically portrayed in either women's magazines or men's - they both present an impossible, airbrushed empty image." and Steeel suggested that there would be no market for magazines which did not do this in the beauty area.

I got to thinking that the mens magazines with those images are only a subset of the total range of "mens" magazines. I don't know the range of womens magazines, do they have many equivalents to the enthusiast mags often targetting primarily men (and nerdish women maybe)?

What are the women in craft magazines like?

Other magazines sit in the middle, the outdoor magazine Wild tends to mostly have real looking people in them (some exceptions in the adds). Gardening magazines are another broad area which my impression is of mostly real people of both genders. Gardening Australia is both a TV show and magazine that does not put much stock in looks and which does an excellent job.

The stuff that makes it into waiting rooms seems to be mostly glitz and glamor (or fishing mags with fishermen and airbrushed women) but it's useful to remember that there is a whole other market out there.

I'm trying to picture where the balance of this lies. The glitzy mags are much more in my face in public places but in my home it's lots of old copies of Model Engineers Workshop (not into models but love the machinery stuff) and copies of Wild with the odd gardening magazine. Some even older electronics mags and various other hobbiest publications which have caught my interest at times. Not a Playboy, Penthouse or Ralph in the place.

Veronika's comment "Men seem to be pretty happy with women's bodies as long as one is in proportion and has a bit of t&a" rings very true. Supermodels can look spectacular but I don't know men who claim that level of perfection is important or worth seeking.

R0bert