Sorry Boaz, I underestimated your sticking power.

>>A school deciding to hold prayers at the beginning of the day at Assembly is nothing to do with 'making a law' and the judges know it.<<

The case here was not about "a school deciding to hold prayers".

Here's exactly what the judges said.

"The respondent Board of Education... acting in its official capacity under state law, directed the School District's principal to cause the following prayer to be said aloud by each class in the presence of a teacher at the beginning of each school day... This daily procedure was adopted on the recommendation of the State Board of Regents, a governmental agency created by the State Constitution to which the New York Legislature has granted broad supervisory, executive, and... legislative powers over the State's public school system. These state officials composed the prayer which they recommended and published as a part of their "Statement on Moral and Spiritual Training in the Schools,"

Please note the key phrase "directed the School District's principal to cause the following prayer to be said aloud... at the beginning of each school day"

That is quite different from your description of a "school deciding to hold prayers".

I absolutely agree with you that:

>>...as long as government does not make it a LAW "You will have prayer each day" there is no breach of either the first amendment.. the 14th amendment<<

Errrrr... but that is precisely what they were doing.

Which was precisely why it became a Constitutional issue.

>>The constitution does not allow the HINDERING of any religion by law either, and preventing prayer is just that<<

There was no attempt here to prevent prayer itself, Boaz.

You clearly understand the issue, "...as long as government does not make it a LAW".

The court's decision was entirely consistent with their objective, which is to uphold the Constitution's insistence that Governments, Federal and State, can neither mandate participation in religious rituals, nor prevent it.

In the land of the free, this is one very important personal freedom.

TRTL: << If the change in persona was accompanied with a change in attitude and a bit less of the 'holier-than-thou' aura that accompanied the last, then I'd be inclined to support a fresh start >>

Indeed, and the adoption of more reasonable language is welcome, even if it's to promote the same old tedious agenda. Mind you, Boazy seems to be trying to avoid obvious hate-mongering in his new 'born again' persona.

PolyBoazy: << The constitution does not allow the HINDERING of any religion by law either, and preventing prayer is just that!

Even CJ could see this I'm sure >>

Well yes - but as Pericles has pointed out, the situation that's rattled your chain here is one where government authorities issued a direction that schools subject their students to a prescribed prayer, and that certainly contravenes what I understand to be the spirit of that part of the US constitution.

Even old Boazy could see that I'm sure - even if he would be inclined to disingenuously try and disguise this fact. Let's hope that Polypuppet is a little more honest than his prior incarnation.

Faith is the principle that the decisions and actions one takes is best or right - will have the best future outcomes. Both Doctors and lawyers, farmers etc etc all act on the basis of faith in their proceedures. A productive life is based in hope for a better outcome in an unseen future.

Pericles that was a helpful contribution.. certainly added to the debate.

Put that way, I can give it a bit of a nod, but where I depart from the decision is that it does not even by precedent exclude agreed prayer with a voluntary aspect.

Sadly, if you had listened to the youtube series 'America's godly heritage" there is one reference to the 'end game' of all this, where a student is allowed to engage in prayer as LONG as no one knows he is doing so.. even over his lunch... now..I'd need to sus that one out more but the judgement was quoted and I think honestly.

None of these things is about producing a static result... they are always part of a process.

Did you note the incident at the english school?

C.J. Oh wait.. you didn't actually say anything :)

Pericles.. I agree with your last sentence.. taken as a whole..not just the first half.

Bottom line, I seek to highlight the fact that schools CAN indeed make decisions which include voluntary prayer at assemblies without breaking any law.
The sooner they do..... the better.

Philo and Boazy,

"nisi credideritis nin intelligitis" - [Confessions, St. Augustine]

Also,

"... faith may be wherewith it received; but faith it still and not knowledge; persuation and not certaintly." - Locke

And,

The religionists logic of affirmation rests with tacit assent to the belief in a source of all knolwedge. "No intelligence, however critical or original , can operate outside of a fiduciary framework... our [their] liberation from objectivism." [Polanyi]. Herein, the religionist [not only Christians] places conviction ahead of any empirical evidence.

Cheers.

You're getting warmer, Boaz

>>Put that way, I can give it a bit of a nod, but where I depart from the decision is that it does not even by precedent exclude agreed prayer with a voluntary aspect.<<

The court was ruling on a constitutional matter, clearly defined and presented. They determined that the actions by the State of New York in this case were unconstitutional.

Your idea that they might specifically include or exclude "agreed prayer with a voluntary aspect" in the same ruling is to misunderstand the judges remit in situations like this.

They are asked a question to which they are required to answer yes or no.

It is not their job to say "oh yes, and while I am about it here is a list of all the other things you can and cannot do".

>>a student is allowed to engage in prayer as LONG as no one knows he is doing so... I'd need to sus that one out more but the judgement was quoted and I think honestly<<

Look forward to seeing that one.

And I'll bite on this too:

>>Did you note the incident at the english school?<<

A little too broad to get a fix on, Boaz, any help you can give will be gratefully received.