Chin Jin,says that the West must push China towards democracy,but when China looks a decaying West,there is no way Democracy will win.

Our legal system was probably our greatest downfall.Litigation and system whereby rights come before responsibilities,have made our Govts impotent and thus incapable of making decisions for the common good.The Chinese Govt wants to buy NSW power.They build one power station power month,yet we cannot manage two by 2014.The Singapore Govt owns OPTUS,yet our Govts cannot build even basic infrastructure.

The West has lost it's momentum.It is both confused and divided.The new world order is of multi-nationals who sedate our Govts with donations and Govts who tinker at the edges of their impotence.

China will fill the void left by the West with their totalitarian philosophy and the multi-nationals will oblige to shore up their bottom lines.

Heavy stuff Arjay.

I think the core of our problem is the innate greed of the human animal, which has become organised into very powerful profit-driven entities and which still exists in the general community as the dominant impetus (instead of concern about the overexploitation of our stressed resource base and the need to achieve a sustainable society) for supporting pro-growth parties. With this sort of thing as the primary driver, it is no wonder that democracy is a dismal failure.

Democracy is very poor at mitigating the profit motive and facilitating decisions for the common good. Even those western and northern European democracies that are doing very well with stable populations and economies would have growth if their climate or environment allowed it.

Democracy more or less worked while countries were in their juvenile and adolescent phases, as it facilitated expansionist development. But now that the expansionist type of development (compared to the good technological improvements type of development) desperately needs to stop, democracy (or the thin veneer of democracy) is proving to be completely and utterly hopeless and devastating to our future.

For all the problems with China’s socialism, it appears that it will be a better system in the longer term. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544125/China-promises-socialism-for-100-years.html

Socialism is good at organising the profit motive and I bet it will be pretty good at achieving sustainability when the powers that be in China decide it is time to do so.

China will indeed fill the void left by the folly of democracy that was incapable of stopping the multinationals from accumulating power. The multinationals will pander to China's voracious appetite for everything and will become Chinese themselves in time.

China will go from strength to strength. In a couple of decades, Australia will become part of the Chinese empire. It is well along that path now.

Ludwig,the frustrating thing is that China is doing more for it's people than the Aust Govt does for it's own.Democracy with it's elections,makes for short term thinking.We have enormous amounts of energy and resources yet are subject to market prices and a Govt incapable of supplying our own energy at affordable prices.

Now I consider food,shelter,clothing,health and energy as basic requirements that Govts should be able to facilitate by balanced competition.We do not have balanced competition in food,or fuel.In NSW we have a shortage of housing and a State Govt bleeding us dry.The NSW Govt is the personification of impotence.

China will always beat us in the cheap labour stakes,but we could attract industry here by suppling cheaper fuel.Intead,we signed a 30 yr contract and sold our natrual gas to China for a song.China would never let her resources be sold off so cheaply.Sadly it is again short term thinking.The Chinese Govt thinks in terms of decades yet we cannot think past the next election.

I think Rudd has done his government a great deal of damage with his “there’s nothing more we can do” diatribe.

Talk about governmental impotence!

Isn’t it insane that after such a tremendously good run with our economic boom, that we still have the most fundamental problems with health, education, indigenous quality of life, environmental degradation, pensioners living well below the poverty line, the gap between the rich and the poor, eeeeeetcccccetera.

Our so-called democratic system has just emphatically let us down. Letting the profit motive rule supreme has just not worked at all. (Where’s Col Rouge?)

Yes, the Chinese government would surely have to be doing more for its people than our successive governments.

Locking ourselves into a contract to supply cheap natural gas to China just might prove to be very unfortunate indeed, with the looming peak oil / energy crunch situation. I agree; very short-sighted indeed.

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So where are all the good concerned people of OLO, who are both for and against the views expressed so far? Why is this thread being bypassed? Is it too hard to contribute to? Is it that they just totally agree with us and have nothing further to add? Is it too depressing even think about? Interesting!

I think Ludwig,that it has always been deep in our background psyche for decades.Dick Smith warned us 20 yrs ago along with many others about the dangers of short term thinking and not backing Australian Industries.Short term gratification has been the norm for the last 40 yrs and now we are reaping what we have sewed.[To use a biblical term]

The reality is now here and like most human nature,we live in denial of the paedophile uncle,or the poker machine destroying families.

People are doing it tough right now and don't want to hear more depressing news over which they have little control.It is more entertaining to argue over the artist who likes photographing pre-pubescent children than confronting fundamental issues of economic and politics,which take profound thinking and courage.

ditto arjay

Where have you been Rainer old son?We have not crossed swords for months.Tell me ,what have you been up to?

Arjay you talk a lot about the dangers of short term thinking. You can blame the old economic rationalists and their dogma for that.

Yes Arjay, the discussion on Bill Henson is shaping up to be one of the most prolific yet. Weird isn’t it.

I’ve mentioned things like socialism being better than democracy and China overtaking us before, on threads where I know there are a lot of readers and potential respondents. Very few people are interested in these really big issues…. although there are quite a few of contributors to debates on population growth and sustainability. Strange.

ARJAY... it was that same short term money/profit centred thinking which hunted my Scottish Highland ancestors from their homes to make way for English absentee landlords sheep.

The Scottish nobility sold out the common man.. for short term gain, and our "nobility" will sell us down the toilet yet again re China...and increasingly Saudi Arabia.

In the next 10 yrs, Saudi Arabia will hold 'most' of the worlds Oil reserves, they currently have around 40%, with the nearby nations holding about 10% (based on a news report a few days ago)

Saudi Arabia just has to 'limit' the supply until "They" still have loads, and the rest have run out. Then.. 2 things will happen.

CHINA will be their biggest customer.
SAUDI Arabia will use it's oil clout to 'massage' many aspects of our social policy.. 'slight' tweaking of education, 'mild' relaxing of immigration, 'minor' tightening of freedom of speech....'more tolerance' of religious schools of a particular leaning....

and so it will go on.. all they have to do is dangle the 'oil' card in front of our short sighted 'nobility' and it's all a done deal.

Our nobility are not strongly tied to this nation, they are tied to lifestyle and wealth, which they can enjoy anywhere..

Thought provoking Arjay, good one!

There is something fundamentally wrong with the way we are developing. I think it is 'us' (as individuals that are to blame), not so much our politicians (we put them there).

The collective philosophy of the individual is reflected in societal values and goals. What we are reaping is what we have sowed. I think maybe we are impotent, not our government.