The 10 June 2007 edition of the Trinity Uniting Church Of Christ's newsletter contains the following passage:

"Both [Israel and South Africa] worked on an ethnic bomb that kills Blacks and Arabs."

See:

http://tucc.org/upload/tuccbulletin_june10.pdf

Trinity Uniting Church of Christ is, of course, Obama's church and Jeremiah Wright was pastor at the time.

So is this another example of Wright's paranoid delusions akin to his allegation that the Federal Government manufactured HIV to wipe out Blacks?

The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) defines an ethnic weapon as "A genotype-targetable weapon. A BW or CW agent that would employ differences in gene frequencies among different ethnic groups."

See: http://www.sipri.org/contents/expcon/CBW%20Publications/CBW_chapters/cbw_1984_app12A.pdf

Is an "ethnic bomb" even possible?

Such a weapon is probably not possible with current technology.

But looking ahead it does seem to be within the realm of possibility. There are small but definite differences in the genomes of different population groups. This does affect susceptibility to infectious diseases. For example a small percentage of people of European and Central Asian origin have an allele that seems to confer resistance to HIV.

See: http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2005/01/66198

This article from the BBC website sums up the situation nicely.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/259222.stm

Quote:

"Advances in genetic knowledge could be misused to develop powerful biological weapons that could be tailored to strike at specific ethnic groups, the British Medical Association has warned."

So could the Israelis develop an "Arab bomb?"

I doubt it will ever be possible to develop a pathogen that kills only Arabs and no Jews. But it might be possible to develop one that kills a much higher proportion of Arabs than of Jews. Say a pathogen that wipes out 75% of all Arabs but "only" 25% of all Jews.

Are the Israelis IN FACT working on such a weapon?

I suspect EVERYONE is doing research into ethnic weapons.

A more reasonable question is not "Is Israel working on an ethnic bomb?" but "who from Al-Qaeda to the Iranians isn't?"

Yes I think it is. Certain races have a predisposition to certain weaknesses. I believe asians are not suited to milk products and well...look how they drive?
It would be a pretty evil scientific world that would want to seek out and so grossly misuse a races' infirmities to get rid of them.

Dear Steven,

I would never believe that Israel would even contemplate such a thing.

They would lose all credibility and support if anything like that was to occur.

It, in my opinion, is a 'no go area.'

Steven: the answer to your question is "NO", now get a life.

Gibo, your statement is one of the most racist I have seen here.

We have children starving in third world nations, a polluted environment, peak natural resources, possible climate change and this latest discussion thread is considered another topic worthy of discussion by OLO editors?

Foxy,

Do you doubt that Iranian President Ahmadinejad would hesitate to deploy a "Jew bomb" if he could get one? My own feeling is that if they think it technically feasible the Israelis will explore this technology if for no other reason than to have a deterrent.

Fractelle,

The history of weapons development suggests that any weapon that can be developed will be.

Gibo's statement about lactose intolerance is correct. With one exception all mammals become lactose intolerant after being weaned. The exception is humans; but only a minority of us. About 60% of adult humans - mainly people of African and Asian origin - are lactose intolerant.

Here is a link to an interesting article that explains how this may have come about:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/06/050602012109.htm

Lactose intolerance is one genomic difference could be exploited in the development of an ethnic weapon.

However, so far as I know both Jews and Arabs are mostly lactose tolerant so that particular genomic difference could not be utilised by either the Arab or the Israeli side.

The terrifying thing about bio-war is that you may not actually know you are under attack. It may be difficult to tell the difference between a naturally occurring epidemic and a biological assault.

Only an idiot would try to use one. Its like people trying to created viruses which only target one particular racial group. What you would find would happen is that in the first year it might be a great success with a 60% kill rate but the next year it might mutate into something which attacks your own people with a 70% kill rate.

I think Jeremiah Wright is a raving lunatic and the only reason Obama condemn him now is because he is running for president, before he was running for President after one of Jeremiah crazy speeches Obama would have said amen.

This thread reminds me of 'The White Plague' by Frank Herbert (I think he was the author as I read it years ago).

In it, an American scientist's family is killed by a bomb in Ulster, so he engineers a plague that only attacks people of Irish genetics.

As the Scots and Irish are almost genetically identical, such a plague would have much collateral damage there and in Australia and the USA.

But anyway, who believes it could happen? Most gene pools have had foreign genes added to the mix over the centuries. I've read that the only nation with an almost homogeneous gene pool is Iceland.

Fractelle.
I was just trying to point out that asians for example have different reactions to what we do in certain things. Someone searching deep in a races make-up might just strike something they could use in warfare. I dont support it though.

I heard a story a few years ago that the Amercians have a "sweeper" mounted inside a Hercules aircraft that when turned on "sweeps" across a landscape and instantly dehydrates what it touches that is of flesh organism.
It will dehydrate a herd of cows or a man up a tree and leave the tree intact. Gross things are happening out there.

Genetically targetted disease warfare is entirely possible.

I recall hearing a CIA whistleblower on ABC radio many years ago, who resigned on the principle that he was OK with disease warfare research generally, but not with the notion of testing it on his own people.

He had no problem with doing tests on South American rebel prisoners in the jungle or death row inmates, but drew the line against releasing hooping cough into a small US rural community to observe death rates on unvaccinated children and various other nasty experiments.

At that time, disease warfare was a serious option and was building on the research done by the Japanese in China during WW2 by Unit 731. This Japanese research was supposed to have been shared with the Allies after the war but mysteriously disappeared, along with many of the Japanese scientists and military officers involved.

It was not long after the announcement of the "Neutron Bomb" where we could wipe out populations but leave Real Estate intact. There has been little official news of either since.

At the end of the programme he said that genetic warfare was the next step. Using the example of sickle-cell anemia which affects only negroes, he said to imagine a disease that "affected only Arabs, for example."

Remember that this was about twenty years ago and there have been significant advances in genetic research since, so anything is possible.

In my earlier years, I quite liked Robert A. Heinlien and still do. But much later I really got into Arthur C. Clarke, as a lot of his stuff was much more realistic and plausible and less pulp novel type stuff.

Dear Steven,

I don't doubt that there will be some who would be interested in targeting certain groups.

But I don't for a moment believe that Israel would open up this pandora's box.

Not even as a deterrent.

Since there is a common heritage of Jews and Palestinians such a weapon would backfire. Many Palestinians are descended from Jews who converted to Islam. They really are in many ways the same people separated by their respective religious delusions.

It is similar to the groups in Yugoslavia who were mainly Orthodox when it was part of the Byzantine Empire. When Turkey took over the Balkans many of the upper class became Muslims. When the Austro-Hungarian Empire took over what is now Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia some of the people became Catholics. People with a common heritage are separated by their respective religious delusions.

Religious differences are a cause for war among people with a common heritage,

A christian army friend had a talk with me one day in church a few years ago and he was saying that he had a great deal of respect for the Americans until he heard on the army grapevine that the US military had a "doomsday computer tape" that they planned to run through all of their ICBM sites and all of their ICBM submarines in the event of being over-run in time of nuclear conflict... that would finalise all life on earth.
We laughed of course, being christians, because the Holy Bible has the final say.
It Is Written in The Word of God that the Book of Revelation way, is the way it will happen.
I dont know if the story is a true story, but if it is, one can see the evil men do before they actually do it.
God Has His Finger on all buttons. Nothing happens without His Approval. We need to pray for this world not be apathetic about what goes on quielty behind closed doors.
Prayer to Jesus Christ opens the way for freedom in very part of our lives and for Judgment on sin.

Would certain breeds of people have a predominant blood type?. What if you created a weapon to attack various parts of those bloodtypes?.

Or you could do what the Chinese do and breed them out of existence.

StG wrote:

"Or you could do what the Chinese do and breed them out of existence."

That is not Chinese policy. China has a one-child per family policy to limit population growth. However this policy is only for ethnic Chinese, the Han. Non-Han Chinese are not restricted in having children.

Bugsy's right - this thread's another science fiction contribution from Steven. Fascinating, as Mr Spock would say. Interesting also that Steven's speculations almost invariably focus on genetics and 'race'.

Just an observation.

While we're speculating, would it be possible to design a weapon that only targeted credulous godbothering types?

Oh, they have already - it's called religion. Very effective at fostering murder and mayhem on a grand scale when strategically deployed too.

The israeli people are great people from there slaughter by hitler to there placement in a jerusalem hell fighting bags with bombs in them i would say the jews need help as well .Read history as England helped settle the jews back into jerusalem and many promises have been broken to palestine .All promises to the palestians have been broken since the 1950's and back then which is heart breaking little 6 years old girls carrying machines and bullets to help palestine which is taking innonence away form the palestine children.Both jews and paletine people are suffering.This is for my sister in law .Know the truth launa as you do not want william or ava growing up with a machine gun in hand as i know the truth of the middle east and i want there freedom .David H.

Steve, get a life. Have you thought of writing fiction?

The Palestinians and the Israelis are the same people. As much as either side may want it to be otherwise, having a different religion doesn't make you different racially.

Whatever would kill Palestinians would kill Israelis.

Dear Yvonne...

"Same People" ? *curious look*...

for one who does not claim much knowledge about things ancient and Biblical, I'm suprised you comment with such finality on that.

They do have the same greatx 150 or so Grand daddy, (Abraham) but Ishmael's mother was ethnic Egyptian (Hagar) and there is a place in the Sinai today called "Ismailia" .. Isaac's mother was Sarah, the hebrew, who was ethnically the same as Abraham and his legitimate wife.

Genesis 11 to 12 will bring you up to speed :)

I await with eager anticipation your newly 'informed' next post :)

Dear BOAZ_David,

DNA studies are more reliable than the Bible which is mythical to some extent. From:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1626606/posts

"A previous study by Ariella Oppenheim and her colleagues, published in Human Genetics in December 2000, showed that about 70 percent of Jewish paternal ancestries and about 82 percent of Palestinian Arabs share the same chromosomal pool. The geneticists asserted that this might support the claim that Palestinian Arabs descend in part from Judeans who converted to Islam. With their closer relationship to Jews, the Palestinian Arabs are distinctive from other Arab groups, such as Syrians, Lebanese, Saudis, and Iraqis, who have less of a connection to Jews."

The relation between Jews and Kurds is even closer.

Dear Boazy *benevolent smile*, I never claimed little knowledge about the ancient or biblical. You must be referring to someone else.

The bible is just not my only source of information.

LESSON 1 from Yvonne (no need for deep and meaningful biblical name-like Boaz_Ruth and certainly not in capitals) - The bible is a source, the only source for many Christians, of SPIRITUAL instruction. The clue in that sentence is- SPIRITUAL. You know the realm of the spirit, the soul if you will, not man made constructs or matters of the body.

Like the story of Ruth is not just a story about the loyalty of a daughter-in-law or how ideal daughters-in-law should behave generally. Whether she existed in fact is immaterial to the relevance of her story as an instruction, a teaching.

I am no racist as einstien (E=MC2) is one of my favourites because he questioned thought iteslf and the universe as why is not expanding.I would not worry about the Israeli instead old cold war russian equipment is on australian shores and retired dirty Aiso agents ruining the australian population by playing the corruption making money card.I have seen this as jews are great people when you get to know them .Protect knowledgable people that want progress and harmony is better.To the forum operator it is better my self and other people tell the truth to save lives than not as stoping the truth being told is also murder as a life could be saved.In some countrys people are brain washed by repatedly movie and music containg murder then act out but the old cold war values are still in communist hands as the still train the old way and that is brain washing.Look up MK ULTRA and read alot of truth .Imagine a machine gun in the hands of a student at the QUT or the melbourne university as i do not want this so the truth is better explained.My cousin and family support victims of crime and a statue in malta(valetta) was placed there by my cousin Antonio Sciortino which he sculptured.David H.

developing an ethnic bomb is one story and Israel is developing an ethnic bomb is an other story.
Personally I believe all big countries, all developed countries, all countries with security problems would like to have this kind of bombs and it seemed their cost will not be very high!
First of all USA which have the power, spent houuuhhh, plenty money for their military super machine and try to keep their empire under difficult conditions!
The Israel would like to have this kind of bombs, with so many Arabs around it. But not only the Israel.
I am sure in the future we will have this kind of bombs, may be already they exist!
Do not worry sooner or later we will have the opportunity to prove how idiots and irresponsible we (humans) are
Of cause sooner or later we will stop to be human beings but something else!!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Steven,

Every significant technology has its consequences, and an extraordinary technology may well have extraordinary consequences.
For this reason, an 'ethnic bomb' should stir a good deal of public unease. Experts may assure the public that there is appropriate regulation and that their fears are groundless. However technological 'experts' have been wrong so often in the past.

Consider the case of pesticides. In 1947, the US Department of Agriculture was given full authority to regulate the introduction and marketing of these chemicals. Over the next couple of decades, experts gave approval for the manufacture and use of what later proved to be some of the most hazardous substances ever introduced to the environment - DDT, heptachlor, EDB, aldrin, kepone, and toxaphene.

The result was an appaling threat to human and animal welfare in the form of widespread chemical pollution of land, water, and food sources.

Most of the offending chemicals have now been banned or severely restricted because of their carcinogenic (cancer-causing) or other toxic effects - but a great deal of permanent damage has already been done.

In much the same way, representatives of the early nuclear-power industry exuded confidence in the safety of nuclear reactors, yet today the disposal of radioactive waste has become a serious problem, and the very safety of the reactors is in question.

Therefore "ethnic bombs" although I personally don't see them as a viable proposition, will have to be something that will be examined very, very, carefully indeed.

StG wrote:

"Or you could do what the Chinese do and breed them out of existence."

That is not Chinese policy. China has a one-child per family policy to limit population growth. However this policy is only for ethnic Chinese, the Han. Non-Han Chinese are not restricted in having children.

Posted by david f, Friday, 2 May 2008 6:34:16 PM

Exporting nationals to occupied territories for the purpose of breeding out the occupied is intentional.

GOLLLLLLY! if only some of you could share the incredible joy I find at some of the wonderful insights you come up with... without realizing...

David F U first.

You mentioned the Palestinians and Kurds and the DNA connection to the Judaeans..Jews.. wonderful stuff. No particular argument from me on that. I was just pointing out that while those descended from Ishmael have a connection, they have an equal connection (through hagar) to the Egyptians.
For a 'pre-cursor' to the current troubles, I STRONGly recommend a read of 2 Old Testament books in case you have not already done it.. Ezra and Nehemiah. The first 'HAMAS' was led by Sanballat and Tobiah, they were mixed (Jew/other). See how it all shaped up :) then we can have a fantastic discussion.

YVONNEy :) u 2nd..

<<"Whether she existed in fact is immaterial to the relevance of her story as an instruction, a teaching.">>

*GONGGGGGG*.. sorrrrrY. No_no_no.

Watch...and learn my dear co poster :)

Ruth 4:13
So Boaz took Ruth and she became his wife. Then he went to her, and the LORD enabled her to conceive, and she gave birth to a SON.

4:6 And they named him OBED. He was the father of JESSE, the father of David.

WHO? u got it.. DAVID...... who was the father of Solomon...etc

Now lets turn in our Bibles (isn't this lounge room comfy? :) to..

MATTHEW...Chapter 1.
Perez(born of incest)the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,(a Prostitute)
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was RUTH, (a Moabite)
Obed the father of JESSE
6and Jesse the father of King DAVID.
David was the father of Solomon,

and so on..until.....

Matthan the father of Jacob,
and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, WHO IS CALLED CHRIST.

Halelujah! Now.. you know the point/position/importance of the book of Ruth :)

Boaz_D wrote:

For a 'pre-cursor' to the current troubles, I STRONGly recommend a read of 2 Old Testament books in case you have not already done it.

The Old Testament is not the same as the Jewish Bible, Christians have added to and changed the text. eg, The prediction in Isaiah in the Jewish Bible is that the Hebrew, alma, shall bear a child. Alma means young woman and could mean virgin like the English word, maiden, who could be an unmarried woman or a virgin. It is nothing unusual for a maiden or unmarried woman to have a child. Alma was translated into parthenos in the first translation of the Bible into Greek. Parthenos means virgin, and so the prediction of a virgin birth is merely a mistranslation. The Bible is not reliable history, but to get closer to the original Hebrew and Aramaic a translation from a Jewish source is closer to the original. However, the Bible relates to the current problems only because people have accepted the mythical elements in it as fact. I doubt the story of the real estate dealer God who doles out territory.

This thread has taken a rather weird turn and, after this post, I'm going to bow out.

I want to clear up a misunderstanding.

FOXY please take note.

I am NOT advocating the manufacture of an ethnic bomb as some posters here seem to imply. I am simply asking a question.

Is the accusation reported in the Trinity Uniting Church Of Christ's newsletter that Israel is manufacturing an "ethnic bomb" simply another example of Jeremiah Wright's paranoia? Or is there at least some scientific substance to the allegation?

My tentative conclusion. It may in the future be possible to manufacture such a weapon. It is certainly not science fact but nor is it, as CJ MORGAN suggests, science fiction. It is educated scientific speculation.

Or does CJ MORGAN think the British Medical Association doctors, whom I quoted in my original post, are uneducated in these matters?

I then went on to point out that if countries or groups thought such a weapon was possible they would certainly be exploring the technology.

The BMA doctors point out that the same technology that could lead to an ethnic bomb will in any case be conducted for legitimate medical reasons. It will probably not be possible to distinguish between genomic research for medical or military reasons.

Whether Israel is actually involved in researching an ethnic bomb I cannot say. However Israeli scientists are very active in medical research. For that reason they would be developing technology that could later be used in an ethnic bomb assuming such is possible.

I am not going to get into biblical discussion here.

Steven, I don't know about how knowledgeable you are with genetics, but I find that those black preachers are always up there on the cutting edge of science and military intelligence. They always seem to know things that no one else does!

But, seriously, the Reverend Wright did not make those accusations, an author called Ali Baghdadi (a very Christian name, LOL) did in his 'letter to Oprah'. So much for reading one's own sources.

The fact that the majority of Jews are closely genetically to Palestinians is not a matter of biblical interpretation either. In fact, the total unlikelihood of any 'ethno-bomb' comes into focus hen one realises that any of the groups ideologically likely to want to develop one are also very likely to be very close genetically. Except for Gibo's Asian-driver bomb of course.

Also, we would have to know much much more about how diseases infect people before they could ever be specifically targeted to anyone. That is years away, seriously. Anyone with with a basic understanding of the latest research in human genetics and a modicum of ethics would understand the futility of developing such technology. Some groups may have speculated, but as with most stupid ideas, they never get off the drawing board.

BUGSY,

As your post is rational I shall respond.

Technically it was "al-Baghdadi" that made the accusation, not Wright himself. However I find it difficult to believe that such a serious accusation could appear in the TUCC newsletter without Wright's knowledge and at least tacit approval.

You ask what I know about genetics.

My response is this. Unless you have been reading CURRENT JOURNAL ARTICLES – say articles that date after 2003 – much of what you thought you knew about genetics, and evolution, is wrong.

For instance, even 5 years ago, certainly 10 years ago, we thought human evolution had stopped about 50,000 years ago. Turns out we are evolving faster than ever. Here are some links.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=culture-speeds-up-human-evolution

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/07/science/07evolve.html?ex=1180670400&en=64c6dcbb41938be5&ei=5070

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/22/health/research/22coli.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&ref=science&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1209960780-fuW/+bigltb/BBXIVMZ22Q

http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10283306

The speed at which evolution happens is something many people have difficulty getting their heads around. We were all taught that evolution happened a long time ago and proceeds very slowly. I believed that until 4 years ago.

Today we know that the "DNA distance" between our ancestors of 10,000 years ago may be greater than the DNA distance between ancient humans and Neanderthals. We may in some sense be a different species to our remote ancestors. (See: The Making of the Fittest by Sean Carroll)

This one is my favourites. "How genes may help people learn Chinese."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11939-genes-may-help-people-learn-chinese-.html

Another discovery is that human evolution sometimes proceeds with changes to genes. More usually it proceeds with changes to DNA sequences that promote the expressions of genes. These are bits of DNA that a few short years ago were dismissed as "junk DNA."

See:

How DNA "Switches" Control Evolution, Sean Carroll et al, Scientific American, May 2008.

In other words, the similarity between our genes and those of, say, gorillas, may be illusory. We need an "all of DNA" approach which takes into account the so-called "junk DNA."

"Is there sufficient DNA distance between Jews and Arabs to make an ethnic bomb feasible?"

I don’t know.

Neither do you.

Like you I suspect not but that may be a pious hope on our part.

Time will tell.

Dear David F

I'd be interested in your source for "The Christians changed the Hebrew Bible" :)

Here is an alternative view.

After the coming of Christ, the JEWS changed the hebrew bible to minimize the basis for understanding the Messiah to be Jesus, and specially that he would be the 'suffering servant' of Isaiah 53.

EVIDENCE.
Some of the terms in the masoritic (Jewish post Christ) text simply don't make much sense in context. (for Isaiah 53) but the SEPTUAGINT which is a Greek translation from a much EARLIER time, shows the Hebrew it came from had a different meaning to the Post Christian Masoritic text.

This explaination appeals to reason and logic.

Steven,

That you can confidently proclaim that neither you nor I don't know the answer to the question
"Is there sufficient DNA distance between Jews and Arabs to make an ethnic bomb feasible?",
means that you don't think that anyone knows, or even could know yet.

And yet you say you "suspect EVERYONE is doing research into ethnic weapons" and that ask questions like,
"So could the Israelis develop an "Arab bomb?" "
and "Are the Israelis IN FACT working on such a weapon?"

What purpose did you have in asking these questions when you were confident in already knowing the answer?

I suspect that actually, noone is working on such a weapon (at least not effectually), because if you could design a disease that could affect a person with a particular gene or genes at will, you would have to understand so much more than we do now about disease generally, that noone, especially Al-quaeda or Israel has the resources to put into such an enterprise.

And just out of interest:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=18733
This paper tells me that 'designing' a disease that only affects Arabs, but not Jews would be a much much harder task than designing one that only affects sub-Saharan Africans as opposed to say Europeans. While AIDS leaps to mind and may be affecting more sub-Saharan Africans, we all know that this difference in infection rates is not primarily because of genes, it's because of behaviour and the fact that the disease seemed to have originated there. This is something that is not usually commented on by the conspiracy theorists.

Lastly, while I did not actually ask what you know about genetics, but it is clear to me that most of what you know is what you glean from media release articles. I am pretty confident that the science isn't there yet, and is unlikely to be in the near future, so don't worry about it there's far worse to worry about.I stand by my opinion of this being in the realms of science fiction, as opposed to science fantasy, a distinction you seem to have missed.

Oh, and Steven: we already have an "all of DNA" approach, it's called GENOMICS. Surprisingly it's been going on for years!
Do try to keep up.

BUGSY

What I know about genetics I get in the first instance from talking to people who are active in the field Secondly I get what I know from what I read in refereed journals such as Nature, PNAS, Cell and Science as well as popular journals such as Scientific American and New Scientist.

However all these publications require subscriptions. I posted links to articles that could be read online.

Designing a disease that affects Arabs – not Palestinians but Arabs generally – but does not affect Jews would manifestly be more difficult than designing one that affected, say, Europeans and not sub-Saharan Africans. This is especially so since almost half the population of Israel is made up of refugees from Arab countries and their descendants. There would have been some inter-marriage.

And, yes, I am also aware that Ashkenazi Jews are, anti-Semitic canards to the contrary, at least partially descended from people who lived in what is now called the "Middle-East."

As I am one of the people who helped compile forecasts of the rate of spread of HIV in South Africa I am well aware of the link between behaviour and HIV infection rates. In fact back in the 1980s we found that the most reliable leading indicator of the rate of spread of HIV was reported cases of syphilis. (In retrospect we grossly underestimate the extent and speed of the spread of HIV).

I avoided the use of the word genomics because many people think it refers only to genes. But you are right. I should have used the term and explained what I meant.

However, I repeat what I said. Right now neither you nor I can know whether it will be possible to develop an ethnic bomb that strikes mostly at Arabs and leaves Jews relatively unscathed. Like you I suspect it is unlikely but I don’t claim to know.

Why do I think people are working on it?

Because it seems to be in our nature to research all possible weapons technologies.

Boaz_D wrote:

"I'd be interested in your source for "The Christians changed the Hebrew Bible" :)"

From Wikipedia:

"Note: Judaism commonly uses the term Tanakh to refer to its canon, which was later adopted as the Christian Old Testament. In academic circles, the term Hebrew Bible is commonly used to refer to the Tanakh or Old Testament.
See also: New Testament
The Old Testament (sometimes abbreviated as OT), in Western Christianity, refers to the books that form the first of the two-part Christian Biblical canon. These works correspond to the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), with some variations and additions. In the Eastern Orthodox Church the comparable texts are known as the Septuagint, from the original Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures. The term "Old Testament" itself is credited to Tertullian, who used the Latin vetus testamentum in the second century."

Different branches of Christianity use different Bibles as the above indicates. Orthodox Christians use the Septuagint - the Greek Translation. The King James is taken from the Masoretic Text with variants as I mentioned before in the translation of the Hebrew word, alma.

From Wikipedia on the Apocrypha:

The biblical apocrypha (from the Greek word meaning hidden) are texts which are often printed as part of the Bible despite their perceived status of being outside of the biblical canon. They are typically printed in a third section apart from the Old and New Testaments. These include texts written in the Jewish and Christian religious traditions that either: were accepted into the biblical canon by some, but not all, Christian faiths, or whose canonicity or lack thereof is not yet certain.

A comparative list can be found in the article on books of the Bible. For extra-biblical works sometimes referred to as apocrypha, see the article on apocrypha.

The biblical apocrypha are sometimes referred to as "The" Apocrypha. Although the term apocrypha simply means hidden, this usage is sometimes considered pejorative by those who consider such works to be canonical parts of scripture."

The Apocrypha is in whole or in part in various Christian versions of the Old Testament.

Boaz_D wrote:
"Here is an alternative view.
After the coming of Christ, the JEWS changed the hebrew bible to minimize the basis for understanding the Messiah to be Jesus, and specially that he would be the 'suffering servant' of Isaiah 53."

The above is one of the many myths without proof that Christians believe about Jews. Jews have too much respect for their Bible to change it.

The idea of a messiah is a myth that has grown in Jewish circles and eventually was copied by Christians who took the Jewish myths as their own. The idea of a messiah was like the idea of the cargo cults that some Pacific islanders have. Some magical figure is coming to solve all your troubles. The idea of a messiah started when the ancient Jewish kingdom split into two parts: Israel and Judah. Jews hoped for someone who would unite the kingdoms. It never happened, but the myth grew and grew. The messiah would be a figure who would usher in the messianic age where there should be a reign of peace over the earth. That has obviously never happened, but people wanted it to happen. The messianic myth of the Jews has it happening. Since Jesus did not bring a reign of peace, Christians invented a Second Coming where he would do the job he failed to do the first time.

Boaz_D also wrote:

"EVIDENCE.
Some of the terms in the masoritic (Jewish post Christ) text simply don't make much sense in context. (for Isaiah 53) but the SEPTUAGINT which is a Greek translation from a much EARLIER time, shows the Hebrew it came from had a different meaning to the Post Christian Masoritic text.

This explaination appeals to reason and logic."

The first translation called the Septuagint did not include the Prophets. That translation was made later.

The word is Masoretic not Masoritic. If a translation varies from the original maintain the original has been changed if you don’t like what it says. If one wants reason and logic the Bible is not a place to find it.

Steven,

While your genetics links are very interesting indeed, I don’t see what you think you see. An important point to consider when talking about relatedness and inheritance is that many people think that they are at the ‘base’ of a family pyramid, when looking at their genealogy, when in fact you are a point in an hourglass. Also, many people think that various 'ethnic' population groups tend to stay put in regional areas, whereas that is also not the case when looking at history.
I think this may help to clear up some misconceptions:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200205/olson
The introgression and mixing of genes throughout populations would limit the feasibility of an ‘ethno-bomb’. But as you say, anything is possible. But possible does not mean probable.

I am confused about some of your statements. From your arguments, you think that Reverend Wright and Ali Baghdadi are NOT merely being paranoid? Interesting.
You also are fairly confident that noone knows the answer as to the feasibility of such a weapon, and yet you want to ask the internet if it’s possible? Also very interesting.

I can’t figure out what you hoped to achieve by such a thread (pro/con Wright? Opinion on ethno-bombs? Pro/con Arabs/Israel?), but whatever it is, I don’t think we are getting very far.

This is not the first time you’ve ended an argument with ‘neither you nor I can know the answer’. It gets irritating after a while.

"The Death Angel Goes High BioTech—Are Ethnically-Targeted Weapons for Real?"

http://www.vdare.com/misc/080428_miele.htm

Steven,

I didn’t see a single thread or comment where you promote harmony between your fellow Israelis and Arabs. All you write about is creative ethnic cleansing one way or the other (by relocating Palestinians to neighboring countries, ethnic bombs, etc..).

Interested to know your comment on the US concerns regarding Israeli settlements in the occupied territories. Can you comment on the article below?

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23646230-5001028,00.html

FELLOW_HUMAN:

I am NOT (repeat, NOT) advocating the development of an ethnic bomb. I am pondering whether it is feasible or whether rumours that Israel is developing such a weapon may be dismissed as paranoia.

Of one thing I am certain. If it is perceived to be feasible then many countries and organisations will be working to acquire it. Neither Iran's Ahmadinejad nor the leadership of Hamas would hesitate for an instant to deploy a "Jew bomb" if they could.

I am not an Israeli so it is senseless to talk about my "fellow Israelis." If you are talking about my fellow Jews I note the following:

--Muslims make up about a quarter of humanity.

--Sufism excepted, the contemporary* Ummah is rife with Jew hatred. Some of the stuff that comes out of Mosques right here in Australia could be taken from the pages of Der Sturmer.

Frankly I find this a terrifying state of affairs.

Under current circumstances trying to promote "harmony" between Muslims and Jews would be like trying to promote harmony between Jews and the Third Reich.

What concerns me is averting Holocaust II!

On the other hand here is a fellow who is doing his bit to calm down the Ummah. I wish him well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/04/world/asia/04islam.html?_r=1&em&ex=1209960000&en=5c99a19d997ac925&ei=5087%0A&oref=slogin

I have no comment on the Telegraph story. I have stated many times that Israel should never have kept the territories it occupied in 1967. Not that I am under any illusion that a retreat to the 1967 borders would satisfy the Muslim world.

*I know the PC version of history that has Jews and Muslims living in harmony once upon a time. In some places at some times that was true. However that was then. The CONTEMPORARY Ummah is not exactly "Jew-friendly."

Steven,

You may want to look at what Australia is doing for the aborigines (investment in health, jobs, housing and recently a formal apology by the PM) and compare it to Israel's policies towards Gaza where people are impoverished, mostly unemployed and living under a $1 a day you would see the answer to your question.

Since its formation, Israel pursued a philosophy of forcing new realities using military power and oppression of a weaker opponent. Maybe if they copied Australia and other human practices towards Palestinians they would have found more 'jewish friendly' voices in the rest of the world whether Muslims or non-Muslims. Don't you think?

Not sure why the holocaust got into this but happy to share a personal view: There is a difference between the holocaust as an atrocity against humanity and the use of it as a marketing tool to justify oppressing others. Most Muslims or Arabs would agree with the following views expressed by Naom Chomsky and the Zionist leader "Nachem Goldman" : http://www.chomsky.info/books/dissent01.htm

Peace,

FELLOW_HUMAN,

Thank you for not contesting the Jew hatred that pervades the Ummah. I find this sort of denial of the obvious tiresome.

As stated in my previous post, and as have stated repeatedly, Israel should NEVER have kept the territory it occupied in 1967.

For what it's worth I think Israel should vacate those territories IMMEDIATELY.

Of course it would have helped if the Palestinians had refrained from rocketing Israel the moment The Israelis withdrew. As a practical matter it makes it hard to sell further withdrawals to the Israeli public.

It would also help if Hamas were to refrain from situating its rocket making and launching facilities among the civilian population. The Hamas leadership seem to regard the death of every Palestinian child as a propaganda victory.

You ask whether Israelis could influence Muslim and non-Muslim opinion in a positive way by adopting a more conciliatory stance towards the Palestinians.

It sounds so reasonable doesn't it?

Based on 45 years of interacting with and observing Muslims my answer is "No." For whatever causes hatred for Jews is now part of the warp and weft of contemporary Muslim culture. It is as ingrained and beyond the reach of reason as was the Jew hatred of the Third Reich.

So far as I can see the only way in which the Ummah's Jew hatred could be assuaged is for Jews to either convert to Islam or to die and I think most Muslims would prefer the latter.

As I said in my previous post, I think a rapprochement between Jews and Muslims is as impossible as a reconciliation between Jews and Nazi Germany would have been.

Could we Jews have done anything to avert this state of affairs?

I doubt it but I cannot rule out the possibility.

However I cannot deal in "might have beens." I can only deal with the Ummah as I find it today and that is an Ummah with genocidal intent towards Jews.

The short answer, F_H, is that, given the opportunity, the Ummah will try to exterminate us no matter what.

Steven the Jews can start improving their relationship with Muslims by advancing the peace process which will require a lot of political change in Israel.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10960108

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10909883

“One party in Ehud Olmert's coalition, Shas, has sworn to scupper the peace talks as soon as they get anywhere meaningful.”

“Meanwhile, Israel's settlers in the West Bank have woven such tight alliances with various parties that they have made themselves effectively untouchable, even though they are only a tiny proportion of Israeli society. As a result, the government is incapable even of enforcing Israel's own laws in the West Bank. It has not made good on a promise to remove even a few of the hundred-odd settlement “outposts” built without permission. Nor has it done anything about revelations that much of the building in even the officially approved settlements has been on illegally expropriated private Palestinian land, not state land as originally claimed.”

Its rather obvious that the peace process “ball” is in Israel’s court and has been for a long time