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The Forum > General Discussion > Should Holocaust studies be compulsory at school?

Should Holocaust studies be compulsory at school?

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Learning about the Holocaust is compulsory for schoolchildren in England.

Should it be?

What I am about to write is anathema for most Jews. Nonetheless I think a reality check is needed.

Why should the Holocaust be a compulsory school subject?

Like most Jews I feel the anguish of the Holocaust. There are times when I am literally consumed with rage. I force myself to watch movies like "Schindler's List" or "Life is Beautiful" and to read books like "The Diary of Ann Frank" but it is almost unbearably painful for me.

I seethe at facile comparisons between present day Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto. I do not call Holocaust deniers vermin only because it would be an affront to vermin.

But you know what is worse than Holocaust denial?

It is Holocaust indifference.

"How," I ask myself, "CAN people be indifferent to an event that continues to cause us so much suffering?"

But guess what? Life goes on. History goes on. An English schoolboy in 2008 may find the Holocaust no more interesting than the rest of his school history curriculum. To him it may be nothing more than facts to be remembered and regurgitated at exam time.

I cannot force that schoolboy to feel what I feel when I contemplate the Holocaust.

Here is a hard truth. I suspect most people today react to the Holocaust the way I react to the Armenian genocide. When confronted with it my reaction is "This is awful. This is terrible. The Turks are worse than the Germans. They won’t even acknowledge what they did to the Armenians. It's almost time for the cricket."

I can understand why my reaction would disgust an Armenian. But there it is.

We cannot live everybody else's tragedies. Anybody who pretends they can is either insane or soon will be.

And likewise I cannot condemn people who refuse to live ours.

So, no, I do not think the Holocaust should be a compulsory curriculum item. I think it should be there for those who are interested.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 2:59:23 PM
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Yes...put it into their hearts.
If we dont the events will cycle back and holocaust will begin all over again
Posted by Gibo, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 4:03:54 PM
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"Learning about the Holocaust is compulsory for schoolchildren in England."

Whilst it may be a useful component of a specific ethics course or getting a mention in the history syllabus (as I learned about it, at school in England), I do not see it as so significant to warrant being a specific subject itself.
Posted by Col Rouge, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 4:06:02 PM
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Yes, I think it depend on context - if modern history is a compulsory subject, then I'd have thought that World War Two - and by extension, the holocaust, was a necessary topic.
I don't think anybody can have a reasonable knowledge of modern history without a passing acquantance with the scale and politics of the two world wars.

If modern history isn't deemed a compulsory subject, then no, I guess I don't see it as necessary. If the students aren't learning about world war two and world history, then regardless of the significance of the holocaust, I don't think it can be divorced from the context of history.

That being said, any modern history syllabus would be completely inadequate without it.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 4:15:12 PM
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It was one of the most significant events of twentieth century history, and it impossible to deeply and critically understand the subsequent history of the Middle East without understanding the nature of *it*. Even if you sympathise entirely with the Palestinians.

A poster who's name will remain, well,nameless, was posting his "holohoax" links and theories here recently. It took a New York minute to see that they were fallacious, but to do so, one needed to have:
1. half a brain
2. a, say, Year Ten knowledge of history, and, most importantly
3. a rudimentary understanding of how historians collect and collate and analyse historical evidence.

Lots of people have less than half a brain. Most people have a year ten knowledge of history. Few people have the critical skills history requires. This is a losing battle, and I think we've got to pump our kids full of *more* of proper history, not less. It's easy for the less brainy kids to come out the other side of the education system and get pumped full of internet-assembled conspiracy theories while believing themselves to be equipped with an "open mind".

In answer to your moral quandaries Steven, I'd say that it is very hard to hold proper tragedy in our hearts for any length of time. I can't really contemplate the holocaust. I can't really contemplate Dafur, or Ethiopia during the famine. Or the Great War. Or Stalin. And for the vast majority of the time I forget about all this stuff and watch TV shows from the UK on YouTube and think about my boyfriend. But every now and then I give it a go, and I know it makes me a better person, and I think if we all do it - including people with actual power - then it makes the world a better place.

Is what I reckon.
Posted by Vanilla, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 4:55:41 PM
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Steven, perhaps the Brits feel the need to make it compulsory lest their part in the firestorm responses in Hamburg, Dresden etc ever be questioned?

Is it in the Oz context more relevant than a study of Pol Pot these days? Or the current ethnic genocide in Zimbabwe?

Another topic perhaps; when is it OK to expose our kids(Ruddian usage) to the horrors of life? 12? 18? When are THEY mature enough?

I agree, it(holocaust study) should not be compulsory, but it is vital for each of us sometime to confront the subject of 'evil'.
Posted by palimpsest, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 10:00:17 PM
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Personally I think that the holocaust should not be a compulsory topic of teaching. It should be part of teaching about ww2 just as the DDay landings The Battle of Britain and Singapore are.

And when we do teach about the holocaust the whole story should be told not just that of the Jews. Sure if you believed the Jewish history you would only think the Jews died in the Holocaust but there were also millions of Gypsies, Communists, Gays, Metal Retards, Germans who were apposed to the Nazi’s and many others who were killed.

I have read her book and been too Anne Franks house in Amsterdam and both were very interesting and it was a very sad story. Mind you Anne Frank was only 1 of 55 million killed during the war and I am sure all the others who have died have just as sad a story to tell as she does.

It should also be asked do the Jews practice what they preach? Sure they complain about mass murder and bring those who did the crimes to justice which I fully support. But when the war criminal is a Jew it’s a different story! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4659985.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Morel
Should the story of the Jews who murder countless thousands of Germans in revenge attacks also be taught? No according to Israel! A dead German is nothing, A dead Jew is everything! And with there attitude towards the Palestine’s the Jews are hardly making an effort to change histories view of them as awhole.

I think the question also needs to be asked as too why the Nazi and practically everybody before them hated the Jews? I think in the end it is due to the there arrogant’s and refusal to integrate and be come part of a nation like every other group of people who migrate do (or used too). As we have seen in repeated surveys multiculturalism destroys peoples sense of community and trust that they have for the fellow country men and I would imagine that it would have been the same story back then as well.
Posted by EasyTimes, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 10:10:35 PM
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Continued

Jews are far to touchy on the subject! I remember hearing about Prince Harry wearing an Africa Corps shirt to a party and a French Jewish friend of mine almost exploded when I said I didn’t have a problem with it. I though for a second he was going to hit me! But I explained to him that I am not Jewish and the Holocaust has as bigger effect on me as what the communist and Stalin did in Russia or Moa’s “Great leap forward” or the effects “year zero” had on the Cambodians. All sad events in history but all have the similar level of effect on me! Mind you thats to the whinging Jews you hear about one of them more then you do of the others.

The Holocaust is a sad story I have a foot in both camps seeing that I have both Lutheran and Jewish family who emigrated to Australia over 100 years ago from Germany so I can see both sides. I some times think of the parts of my families who did not emigrate to Australia and if they perhaps turned on and attacked the Jewish side or the Jewish side took revenge on the German side of my family! Its all very sad.
Posted by EasyTimes, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 10:13:25 PM
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Well yes, and well no! Does the world of yesterday really matter? and it does. Parts of time should be forgotten, but we all know, man cant go on without reminders of. I think it should be taught with the up-most reflections and of a time that has gone by.

We all still think of yesterday, than where we are going, and what Ive tried to put to all of you is, Just be careful! Cause with our minds, we create the world. And that's a fact.
Posted by evolution, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 11:30:25 PM
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HOLOCAUST INDIFFERENCE.. is what can definitely happen if we are exposed to repeated images and talks about it.

In the same way that the Christian Gospel becomes (not can, but does) 'ordinary stuff' to many Christians because they hear it so much, or read about it.. unless we can see the Holocaust as something 'out' of the ordinary, an abbheration, then, familiarity will surely breed contempt.

I think a better approach would be to have a 'Historic Milestones' section of the history curriculum.

Major Milestones would be:

1/ From the time of Christ to Constantine.
2/ Rise of Islam and it's attempt at world domination. (including the holocaust against Indians and others)
3/ Defeat of invading Muslims in 732 by Charles Martel.
4/ Reasons behind the Crusades.
5/ Defeat of the invading Muslims in 1600s at the Gates of Vienna.
6/ Defeat of the entrenched Muslims in Spain/Portugal along with a study of the dangers of movements which can result in such extremes as the Inquisition.
7/ Balkan politics/Causes of WW1 with the connection to Ottoman invasions in the past.
8/ Connection between point 4, WW1 and 2 and how a man like Hitler could gain ascendency with never more than 37% of the democratic vote.

9/ The nature and neccessity of Alliances to maintain power balances.
10/ How alliances saved Australia from Japanese Imperialism.

Most Aussies don't have the slightest clue about such things.

So, yes, the Jewish Holocaust should be PART of an overall study of nation states, international relations and ideologies.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 7:15:42 AM
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kids should be raised in a barrel, with surgically implanted earphones, to make simple their education. so that when they are old enough to work, they'll only have the right ideas.

in short, just like now, only a little better due to reduced traffic accidents.

'holocaust' not necessary, just a generic compulsion to love and hate what the pollies tell them to love and hate.
Posted by DEMOS, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 7:48:02 AM
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Yes definately....

How can we ignore any form of genocide? How will generations learn from our past mistakes if they arent studied and discussed??

I gained alot of my knowledge from studying "The Diary of Anne Frank" as part of the English curriculum in high school. I also remember watching a movie called "the Holocaust" or "Austwitz" when I was much younger...than later "Schindlers List"

How could we exclude one history's worst atrocities in the education of our children?
Posted by izzo, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 8:47:04 AM
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Yes, I believe there should be a component of history devoted to the Holocaust, but it should be taught as a salutary lesson about how vulnerable we all are to the machinations of Government. The Jews were selected as a scapegoat group by Hitler, yet many of the individuals were a prosperous, civil and well-regarded part of German society. They were the middle class, just as we contributing here are likely to be of the middle class and yet they were herded into camps and killed willy-nilly.

Our recently departed Prime Miniature serves as a salutary reminder (albeit on a lesser scale) of the fact that scapegoating is still a favourite Government tactic. One has to wonder what atrocities may have been committed by and against ordinary Australians if his regime had coincided with spectacularly bad economic conditions, such as obtained in pre-War Germany, rather than the global burst of productivity he was lucky enough to enjoy the political benefits of.
Posted by Antiseptic, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 9:58:43 AM
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Boaz, I shouldn't be depressed by further evidence of your one eyed view of the role of Islam, but I am.

The vast majority of your syllabus focuses on muslims. While they of course, deserve a place in a history syllabus, to engineer a syllabus such as yours which constantly harps on about them, is proof that you really do live in a world simply of Christians vs Islam, to the exclusion of other matters.

All your historic information seems to have these things at their focus.

Where's the analysis of the Chinese empire, one of the largest and longest in existence, and now in position to be the world's leading empire?

Not important, compared to your muslim crusade?

Where's the history of colonialism - from Australia, to Canada, to US and the spread of western thought?

Not important, compared to your muslim crusade?

Where's the discussion of the Greeks and their war against the numerically superiour persian empire? The foundation for hellenism, which shaped the roman empire and western ideals?

Not important, compared to your muslim crusade?

Where's the discussion of the Empires of ancient egypt, mesopotamia and the hittites, some of the earliest large-scale civilisations we know?

Not important, compared to your muslim crusade?

Honestly boaz, you wonder why people think you have a biased agenda that lacks perspective.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 10:15:40 AM
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The Holocaust and the contemporaneous slaying of 20 000 000 Russians, the Israeli "Nabkah", and all the other barbarities of the 20th Century including the terror bombing of N. Vietnam and the killing of 1 in 10 (3 million) Vietnamese, and the truth behind that murderer Pol Pot, should all be taught as part of a compulsory comprehensive and unbiased history curriculum . Without knowing our past, warts and all, we cannot understand it, and if we cannot understand our past, we cannot understand and hopefully improve our present culture.
Posted by HenryVIII, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 10:48:35 AM
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Of course we should teach modern history that includes the Holocaust. It might have been the first time detailed film could be made of such atrocities and I remember so well the newsreels at the time showing bulldozers sweeping up bodies in the camps and showing the world. We were all shocked and I hope that we never forget man's inhumanity to man.
Posted by snake, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 11:16:43 AM
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I think that History should be a compulsory standalone subject at all levels of schooling, and it certainly shouldn't be confined to the 'milestone' approach - Boazy's list is a good example of why.

Let's get some perspective here. As Vanilla (I think) said, the Holocaust was one of the most significant events in world history in the 20th century, and should certainly be included in all high school history curricula.

I had a quick squizz at the revised UK high school history curriculum, and here's where the Holocaust fits in:

"European and world history

9. the impact of significant political, social, cultural, religious, technological and/or economic developments and events on past European and world societies

10. the changing nature of conflict and cooperation between countries and peoples and its lasting impact on national, ethnic, racial, cultural or religious issues, including the nature and impact of the two world wars and the Holocaust, and the role of European and international institutions in resolving conflicts"

[ http://curriculum.qca.org.uk/subjects/history/index.aspx ]

Sounds pretty good to me - I reckon Boazy, Jack the Dolt and a few others would benefit from such a course of study.

[cont.]
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 11:25:09 AM
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[cont]

Interestingly, there's apparently been a bit of a kerfuffle recently in the UK about teaching about the Holocaust and other potentially controversial topics. From the UK History teachers' association website:

"The Department for Education and Skills has funded the Historical Association to produce a report called “Teaching emotive and controversial History 3 – 19” (TEACH 3-19).

The National Curriculum for History and GCSE and A-level History qualifications often include areas of study that touch on social, cultural, religious and ethnic fault lines within and beyond Britain. Such areas of study include the Transatlantic Slave Trade, the Holocaust and aspects of Islamic history. These areas are sometimes avoided by teachers to steer away from controversy in the classroom.

The way such past events are perceived and understood in the present can stir emotions and controversy within and across communities. The Historical Association’s report will gather examples of effective teaching that deals with emotive and controversial history in schools across all key stages from the ages of 3 to 19."

Apparently "one history department in a northern UK city stopped teaching about the Holocaust because it wished to avoid confronting anti-Semitic sentiment and Holocaust denial among some Muslim pupils". This led to the above study being commissioned, the misreprting of which spawned a spam email being circulated saying that "all schools in the UK have stopped teaching about the Holocaust in their history classes".

[ http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/holocaust.asp ]

So, schools in the UK don't teach a subject called "Holocaust Studies" per se, but they do teach about the Holocaust in their latest History curriculum - in the context of European 20th century history. That sounds about right to me.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 11:26:19 AM
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At the very minimum, the Diary of Anne Frank should be read by everyone.
Posted by StG, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 1:13:16 PM
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StG,

My son's ex-wife was a university-educated German woman. She believed the Diary of Anne Frank was propoganda.

Yes, the Holocaust must be taught as an important component of WW2 history ... also, what Hitler did to his own people. Unfortunately, this isn't much addressed. The fact that he was so obsessed with destroying the Jews, that rather than use rolling stock to send winter clothing to his soldiers in a Russian winter, he used stock to send Jews to the gas chambers. German soldiers with metal studs in their boots, died in agony where they stood.

As late as 1944 German youths - not yet of arms-bearing age - were being publicly hung in city squares. Of both sexes, these young people, were executed as criminals, a danger and "threat to the moral health nation's youth". Their crime? Listening to jazz (black) music. Two such groups were the Navajos of Cologne, and the Edelweiss Pirates of Cologne-Ehrenfeld.

Apart from the horrors of murdering those considered mental "defectives" and homosexuals, Hitler targetted other German groups. Unfortunately, it appears that not many Germans themselves know this. Then we have the evidence of Hitler being responsible for managing to raise Germany to a pile of rubble in a few short years.

Yet, some people still attempt to defend Hitler; and some of these are German themselves.
They don't really know their own history.
Posted by Danielle, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 3:26:27 PM
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Danielle,

Anything used to stir emotion is propaganda. The issue is whether it's fact. Life Is Beautiful is a good movie to see about the Holocaust.
Posted by StG, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 3:44:56 PM
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Easy Times,

"Prince Harry wearing an Africa Corps shirt to a party"

The outrage from the British people, especially from services, was much greater than every heard from Jews. In fact, I can't really recall any Jew raising an opinion.

Those who were imprisoned by the Japanese, (or widows or orphans of those who were) tend also to be sensitive about what happened. What do you say to them. Sh@t happens?
Forget it! Some still experience post-traumatic stress syndrome.

The fact that you have a foot in "both camps" - really is of no significance - unless, of course, your Lutheran side support Hitler and his plans for extermination of the Jews. Then, I suggest, you have a major problem.
Posted by Danielle, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 3:47:05 PM
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Hi TRTL and CJ :)

well.. yes, my 'list' was very selective and quite biased.. *I CONFESS*

Perhaps you might appreciate 'why' by considering:

1/ Islam is out for our hearts, minds wills and taxes (Jizya) and to subjugate us TODAY and NOW.

2/ Tours and Vienna are viewed by most historians (from what I gather) as 'pivotal' for Western culture and life.

3/ Muslims are trying to re-construct our culture 'in terms of' Islamic values. There is no point arguing this, its a plain fact.
Since I read of the attempt to re-structure our whole higher education timetables to suite Muslim Prayer times. I freaked! If you think I was hysterical b4... you can imagine me now with all the veins in my head pulsating with passion :)

The idiocy of all this..and the danger..is that 'they just don't see it'.. I mean.. Aziza Abdul Hamid of the Muslim womens network agrees.
They want
-Changed lecture times
-Separate eating areas
-Female only areas for "Muslims" to relax

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23269447-12332,00.html

Now.. this was errr.. Feb 25th.

The woman behind some of this, Aziza Abdulhamid in 2005 declared:

"We must ensure imams are well grounded in Australian law and ways of life"!

Now..what happened between 2005 and 2008?

Nothing.. the reality is.. this has been and will be their agenda all along. Now we just see more of it.

Now.. maybe you don't care about the Chinese invasion of Tibet, but I do, just like I care about the "IsLamic" invasion of Australia.

If you don't call such requests an 'invasion' at the cultural, legal and social level, then mate.. GO..and get serious help.

Don't call me 'Islamophobic' just call me an Aussie patriot. (and no need for the smart alec quip about 'patriots':)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 7:01:25 PM
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Boazy ,I think I read an almost identical post 2 years ago. Some things never change .

Steven, What I do think would be of use would be a general compulsory subject on "Physical and Cultural Genocide and it's progression and use down through the Ages".

From the days of the old Bible, the Jewish Holoucast ,Indonesian Efforts in West Papua, Australian Indigenous Disposession and up to the previous Australian Government's efforts in Central Australia as they attempted to stop the effect of Ceremonial life on their nine to five work ethic ,it would give important lessons on human relations and what we should keep an eagle eye out for .
Posted by kartiya jim, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 8:16:28 PM
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Steven

I want to clarify, do you mean teaching about the Holocaust as a separate subject from WW2 history?

If that is the case, then no, it is not appropriate.

But as a part of History it is very important and never should be forgotten, for the same reason Pol Pot's holocaust needs to be taught in any studies about the history of Cambodia.

I'm curious as to what your agenda is with this question, please explain.
Posted by Fractelle, Thursday, 20 March 2008 9:33:35 AM
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Boazy, as usual your paranoid ravings don't actually resemble the facts very much. With respect to Muslim students requesting that the lecture timetable take into account their Friday times:

* University timetables routinely take into account Christian religious festivals like Easter and Christmas, not to mention Sundays.

* In every university at which I've been, Fridays are traditionally the day with the least classes scheduled. I was Faculty timetabling officer for a brief stint, and I don't imagine that the students' request would be all that hard to accommodate.

* Universities are (unfortunately) businesses these days, and students are their customers. If universities wish to increase the numbers of students they attract from particular demographic groups, then it may well be in their interests to accommodate their preferences, including lecture times and the provision of other facilities.

And so on... this is a bit like your outrage over the absence of ham sandwiches at a council do - i.e. exaggerated, ridiculous and ultimately hateful.

Besides which, what on earth does it have to do with the inclusion of the Holocaust in History curricula? As I've suggested to you before, I think you'd really benefit from the formal study of History. You clearly have little idea about how real historians work, or the historiographic process by which History is written - and you haven't a clue about how universities work.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 20 March 2008 9:55:03 AM
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Interesting observation kartiya jim.

>>Boazy ,I think I read an almost identical post 2 years ago. Some things never change<<

I have often wondered whether there is an element of recycling in Boaz's offerings, or whether they're just the result of a mind that only travels along the tramlines of its prejudice.

There is a definite element of déjà vu here.

>>Islam is out for our hearts, minds wills and taxes (Jizya) and to subjugate us TODAY and NOW<<

This is the sort of war-cry that I would expect from the man with the megaphone at the head of the rabble, on their way to a redneck version of Kristallnacht. Note that it doesn't condemn "a few small but violent factions", just "Islam".

>>Tours and Vienna are viewed by most historians (from what I gather) as 'pivotal' for Western culture and life<<

References? "from what I gather" doesn't sound very definitive.

>>Muslims are trying to re-construct our culture 'in terms of' Islamic values. There is no point arguing this, its a plain fact.<<

Sorry, I will argue with this. It is not "a plain fact". Even your example is, to say the least, extremely thin. Take another look.

>>I read of the attempt to re-structure our whole higher education timetables to suite Muslim Prayer times. I freaked!<<

The article you point us to does not support your story. There are examples such as "several students had approached the Bundoora institution about rearranging class times", but the response is equally consistent "the university was not planning to change any timetables... it is not institutionally viable"

So, freak away, Boaz. The fact that individuals, groups and even sects frequently ask for dispensation for their various fads and rituals doesn't indicate an attack on fundamental values.

It took a while to get permission from the controlling religions for us ordinary folk to work on Sundays if we want (we still can't buy newspapers or get to go to the supermarket on Good Friday, I notice), so I suspect it's highly unlikely that we will allow other factions to reverse this trend.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 20 March 2008 10:05:41 AM
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As I cast off the first petals of my youth, I can look back over the elapsed time with a sense of perspective . . . (ah I feel an uncharacteristically sensitive-awareness moment coming on, at this moment testing ones gag-reflex is appropriate)

What we learn at school is insignificant to the learning we do later. School is there to instill in us the processes of learning, not to comprehensively indoctrinate us with all the skill and knowledge we need to acquire for life.

In terms of history and social education, school should equip us to be able to distinguish the truth from the lie, between right and wrong and to give us the confidence to challenge the less than truthful, be it a David Irvine or a Global Warming Zealot.

That is a far better deployment of the limited time available for such things, between other syllabus subjects, than learning the particular chronology of specific events.

However, those events do act as important examples of what happens when moral and honest standards are ignored and expediency, avarice, hate and envy are deployed in their place.
Posted by Col Rouge, Thursday, 20 March 2008 10:52:54 AM
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Good old CJ, if you can't come up with an intelligent argument, resort to insults. On another thread you wrote that you 'oppose laws that prohibit denial of the Holocaust in Europe.' Maybe you forgot.
On that same thread I asked Vanilla why she thought that Dr. Franciszek Piper, senior curator and director of archives of the Auschwitz State Museum, was not a good source. Instead of replying, she sneaks in a little jibe on this thread about an 'unnamed poster' and

'1. half a brain
2. a, say, Year Ten knowledge of history, and, most importantly
3. a rudimentary understanding of how historians collect and collate and analyse historical evidence.' being all that was required to question the holohoax. Then she went on to write 'for the vast majority of the time I forget about all this stuff and watch TV shows from the UK on YouTube and think about my boyfriend'.

I nearly fell of my chair laughing at that.
After writing how moronic I am for my beliefs, she watched some telly, thought about her boyfriend and got out her Barbie dolls (not Klaus Barbie).
This site gets funnier by the minute. Oy Vey!
Posted by Jack the Lad, Thursday, 20 March 2008 12:21:32 PM
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Dear Steven,

World War II produced tens of millions of victims. Some were combatants, some civilian casualties of the war. Others were victims of genocide planned by the warring powers, primarily, at least for the purpose of this post, the Nazis and the Bolsheviks.

Both the Nazis and the Communists had committed unheard of cruelties.
Concentration camps -- on both sides of the front -- operated at a high pitch prior to and during the war years. Whilst the USSR policy of mass murder preceded that of Nazi Germany, most notably with the artificial Ukrainian Famine of 1932-33, the wholesale destruction of the Russian peasantry, and later of the peasantry and intelligentsia in the occupied territories as well, the Nazis soon matched Soviet terror with their wholesale slaughter of Jews, Gypsies, and others, in equal numbers, if not proportions of their populations.

As stated in 'The New KGB':

"There is no dispute about the enormity of Hitler's holocaust. But it is equally important to be aware of the accomplishments of the Soviet secret police, which brought death to at least four times as many Russians, Poles, Jews, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Gypsies, and Romanians as Hitler did in his eleven years as a leader of the '1,000-year Reich.'"

History is clear that in 1939, Stalin and Hitler were allies against the free people of Europe. They were both, by then, accomplished killers, even though Stalin led the score in victims tortured, starved, and massacred. Each created panic and chaos throughout Europe. Each produced millions of refugees and homeless. Each was expanding and building concentration camps in which millions of innocent victims would perish.

The two dictators used the same methods to deal with their domestic opposition --terror.

Should Holocaust studies be compulsory at school? Of course. But if students are to be taught about the victims and villains of World War II, they must be presented the full picture - which must include
not only Hitler, but Stalin as well!
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 20 March 2008 12:52:43 PM
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Steven,

To answer your question more fully; yes, the Holocaust should be compulsory in schools.

There have been horrific massacres in the past, occurring at present, and undoubtedly will do so in the future. However, the Holocaust was unique.

The Holocaust occurred, in living memory of many, in what was considered the most cultured and civilized country in Western Europe, if not the world. Hitler came to power in a Western democracy. He turned it on its head, becaming a dictator. His masterful use of his huge propoganda machine to manipulate a people. Also ... as an actor said, a study of Hilter’s public appearances and speeches shows him to be the supreme actor - Hitler’s use of movement, gesture, pause, inflection, tone, and lengths of consecutive sentences demonstrate just how powerful his performances were.

As Col Rouge stated: “In terms of history and social education, school should equip us to be able to distinguish the truth from the lie, between right and wrong and to give us the confidence to challenge the less than truthful ...”

We must never short-change coming generations by not providing them with these tools.

The extraordinary efficiency of Hitler’s machinery. Many people arrested and sent to gas chambers were surprised to learn they had Jewish blood, a grandparent. Then there were others caught up in Hitler’s genocide - the Gypsies. They, too, must never be forgotten.

The effect of the Holocaust has impinged upon so many areas - even if at an unconcious level. Not only in academia, government, and in how we see others, but also in arts and literature. Ernest van Alphen’s work, “Caught by History: Holocaust Effects in Contemporary Art, Literature, and Theory” establishes this as an undeniable fact.

Before the Holocaust, science was seen to be used for the benefit of mankind, and western democracy the ideal governance. We now know ...

The Holocaust is a benchmark in human history. There can never be a return to the perception of the world seen pre-Holocaust. Humanity lost its innocence.

cont ...
Posted by Danielle, Thursday, 20 March 2008 3:36:22 PM
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StG,

This well educated woman believed that the "Diary of Anne Frank" was a fabrication. Thus, this woman's perception of propoganda.
Posted by Danielle, Thursday, 20 March 2008 3:37:26 PM
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I'm quite satisfied that CJ's ferreting around turned up the actual truth of the matter which (Just like the "Universities will be disrupted for Muslims)turns out to bear little resemblance to the fruits of BDs overheated imagination. Yet Again.

As the curriculum does not deal with African or Asian history it would appear that including the Holocaust is pertinent and also that there are not waves of muslims with dynamite strapped to their chests bearing down on No.10 and demanding all vestiges of it removed from the history books.

If it was part of the course one could correct those people who continue to call it the "Jewish Holocaust" without reference to the fact that, as people have pointed out on this forum, they were not the only group upon whom genocide was practised.

Oh yeah, I know it probably sounds nit-picky but, in human terms, apart from my mother I have never had any relatives at all on one side of the family. And now she is dead, using the nom de plume I do is the only reminder left of part of who I am. Which does illustrate (albeit in a minor way, I know)that the effects of holocaust are far-reaching.
Posted by Romany, Thursday, 20 March 2008 8:46:08 PM
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History is as important as the future because it is history which offers us the hindsight we all rely on to make decisions presently & for the future.
History, particularly the tragedy & insanity of ethnic cleansing must be presented at all levels of education.
Unfortunately, the tragic lessons of history fail to hit home & do not prevent people from committing the same atrocities over & over again. Why, because history is presented as an interesting subject which one can use to do a thesis on & make a career of it. History should not just be taught as a subject. It should be part of bringing up children & part of culture in general. Some very tragic history is cheapened by making it an exam subject to be passed & this in turn becomes the very root of history being invented rather than stated.
History must be preserved in it's factual unedited version & not sanitized & reconfigured by political correctness.
We could achieve a far better society if, for example, we didn't have those 50 year or so periods of withholding official documents.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 20 March 2008 9:35:16 PM
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Jack the Holocaust Denier: "On another thread you wrote that you 'oppose laws that prohibit denial of the Holocaust in Europe.' Maybe you forgot."

Er, Jack - I know this may stretch your intellectual capacity, but it's quite possible to argue for freedom of speech without agreeing with particular odious, offensive or plain silly ideas. In your case, freedom of speech means that I'd defend your right to refer to the Holocaust as the 'Holohoax', and also refers to my right to point out that you are a dolt for believing such tripe.

Like I said, you'd clearly benefit from an education.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 21 March 2008 10:06:08 AM
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CJ, why would you defend my right to voice my beliefs when you ridicule me for doing so? If that's the extent of your 'education', you mustn't have done very well.

I notice that anything that you disagree with is labelled as 'tripe', 'claptrap' or some other disparaging name. What a debator.

You are quite a small-minded country bumpkin.
Posted by Jack the Lad, Friday, 21 March 2008 1:46:33 PM
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Danielle “The outrage from the British people, especially from services, was much greater than every heard from Jews. In fact, I can't really recall any Jew raising an opinion.: My Jewish friend certainly did! I just said it was a fancy dress party so what if he goes as someone from the Africa corps! Should we all get angry if someone goes to a fancy dress party dressed as a Viking because of what the Viking did to the English and many others?

In conclusions the ENTIRE story of the holocaust should be told not just the side the Jews want people to hear!

On the topic of the entire story being told we should also tell the entire story of ww2 if you believe the history that is taught at Australian schools you would think the English and American did all the fighting and the Eastern front was merely a sideshow to the main event in the west. When I was at school we did not study the Eastern front at all. It was the Russians who did most of the fighting not the Americans and English
Posted by EasyTimes, Friday, 21 March 2008 3:15:05 PM
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I thought that concept might be too much for our Jack, poor fellow.

Mind you, what else would we expect from someone who refers to the "Holohoax"? Fortunately, it's quite typical of the intellectual calibre of Holocaust deniers.

I still maintain that a decent education would help, however.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 21 March 2008 3:33:06 PM
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March 5th 2008 marked the 55th anniversary of the death of one of the greatest mass-murderers of all time, the Soviet dictator,
Joseph Stalin.

More people perished during World War II during his reign of terror than at the hands of the Nazis. Yet many today still fail to grasp the magnitude of his crimes against humanity.

Those who turned a blind eye to the reality of Soviet communism were not misguided idealists, but were as morally culpable as Nazi sympathisers who whitewashed Hitler.

In this anniversary year of Stalin's death, it is wrong to forget a major and tragic chapter of European history. And it is perhaps a fitting time to set the record straight and recapitulate the human cost of Stalin's terror. Certainly his millions of innocent victims deserve no less.

Robert Conquest wrote the highly-acclaimed "The Great Terror,"
as well as, "The Harvest of Sorrow." It records possibly the worst
human disaster in living memory. It is also a deeply moving testament to those who died, and will register in the public consciousness of the West a sense of the darker side of the history of this century.

The number dying as a result of Stalin's actions was higher than the total number of deaths for all countries in World War I.

It is a history that needs to be taught - when teaching the history of
the victims and villains of World War II.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 21 March 2008 3:52:48 PM
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Easy Times

"When I was at school we did not study the Eastern front at all"

It is up to the Russians how much we know about the Eastern front.

When the Russians are prepared to release their archival material to the west, then perhaps historians will have sufficent evidence on which to base an accurate history from their side.
Posted by Danielle, Friday, 21 March 2008 3:59:46 PM
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Foxy,

You are right about Stalin.

Unfortunately, millions of Western intellectuals, academics, socialists, trade unionists, journalists and many others rejected reports of the mass atrocities in the USSR. Indeed almost saw his as a demigod - and his policies a new faith

Stalin referred to these, his useful idiots, as his "maggots."

We still do not know the extent of his atrocities; sensitive communist archives remain sealed.

However, British Historian, Cartherine Merridale’s book 'Night of Stone: Death & Memory in Russia' (Granta) presents a horrifying picture of Soviet-era crimes; and scientists are dedicated to uncovering the truth, including Stalin’s legacy.

Merridale cannot put a precise figure of Russians deaths under the regime between 1914 and Stalin's death in 1953, but suggests an excess of 50 million.
Posted by Danielle, Friday, 21 March 2008 4:59:01 PM
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When I went to school, we learnt something about mass deaths under Stalin, including during WW2. Of course the idiocy and excesses of Soviet communism should also be taught in high school history courses - which as I have said should be compulsory.

This, of course, by no means implies that the Holocaust was any less significant.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 22 March 2008 9:20:14 AM
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Stevenlmeyer, I cannot better your opening post on this topic.

That is exactly the view I have.
Posted by Ginx, Saturday, 22 March 2008 12:00:54 PM
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Cj,every negative comment from you about me makes me more convinced that I am right.

As for your 'what else would we expect from someone who refers to the "Holohoax"?' What did that mean? And when you refer to the 'intellectual calibre of Holocaust deniers', at least I don't resort to calling anyone that I disagree with as 'dolt', knuckledragger' etc. So where does that leave you?

Incidentally, 30 years ago I believed in the Holohoax. I sought the truth and grew out of it as I had already done with religion. Am I a dolt for not believing in God? Or is that different as you are a self-proclaimed aithiest (and enthusiastic heterosexual, anal-sex promoting country bumpkin).

What is the difference between your 'decent education' and mine?

As you profess to have all the answers, I'm itching for your comeback.
Posted by Jack the Lad, Saturday, 22 March 2008 5:35:06 PM
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Jack: "CJ, why would you defend my right to voice my beliefs when you ridicule me for doing so?"

So Jack, how do you define free speech? Is it, "everyone should be allowed to say what they like, as long as they're not poking fun at me"? Because, otherwise, ridicule is part of the package, I'm afraid. I loathe this politically correct view that free speech means being polite to people who hold idiotic views. In fact, it means exactly the opposite. Besides, you may not have CJ's wit, but you're not adverse to a bit of blunt-object fun-making yourself.

If you are going to quote from a conspiracy theorist who believes in UFOs, if you voice a presumptuous QED because you've found one Holocaust denier amongst the many thousands who have studied census records and other original sources for the last fifty years, if you think that CJ supports Islam because he pokes fun at Islamophobes, then you are not someone who, on face values at least, appears to value intellectual rigour, and you've got to expect ridicule. At least on a forum like this, when you're going to encounter smart people like CJ.

You've made it clear that you believe yourself something of a truth-seeker, and you've proudly asserted that you've "grown out" of believing in the holocaust. I'm pleased as punch you get so much self-satisfaction from burying your head in the sand. But if you expect anyone to take you seriously, you will, at some point, have to come up with something vaguely sensible.

Now, back to boyfriend, telly and white wine for moi.
Posted by Vanilla, Saturday, 22 March 2008 7:07:55 PM
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Good old CJ :) grasping at a bit of a straw "Woo..I used to be the timetable monitor -err.. so I KNOW" :)

Yes dear CJ.. I appreciate the situation on fridays, and minimal classes etc. The bit about "uni's are businesses"...Hmm fair point I guess, so perhaps the question should be "Do we need customers like this"?

If the social impact of pandering to the religous idiosyncracies of this few students is worse than denying them the adjustment.. then why adjust?

But.. talk about trying to make a bloke choke.. you mention

<< University timetables routinely take into account Christian religious festivals like Easter and Christmas, not to mention Sundays.>>

O...k....but if you have 20 or 30 weird and wonderful religions all wanting things adjusted to 'their' times for prayer or sacrificing animals or what have you...then clearly.. and I mean CLEARLY there would be chaos. Of all people, you should know this.

Farrrr better to say "This is our timetable... come or don't come"

Otherwise you poor bugga... you'd be like the father and son and the donkey crossing the river.

You see young fella.. its easy when you speak about ONE group... aah..but multiply this.. next the witches will want it changed for the eclipse or each time the moon gets a pimple so they can all dance around naked etc...

Why DO they employ such dills as you there :)) haha.. ok.. you can remind me of that next time I say "But I don't attack people" 0_^

BACK to the topic.

I think we have covered it..
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 22 March 2008 9:41:01 PM
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Wow,

Like topsy this thread just growed.

Thank you for your kind words ginx.

Foxy, Danielle,

You are both right. Thanks to the perfidy of leftie "intellectuals" Stalin's holocaust – and that's what it was – is less well known than Hitler's. So is the holocaust that Mao, that one time icon of radical chic, wrought in China. Of the trio of monsters that made the 20th Century so bloody it is arguable that Mao was the worst of the lot.

Lefties never learn. Having excused Stalin and Mao they are now in the forefront of those seeking to explain away or minimise the depredations of Islam. Even their arguments are retreads of the arguments used to defend the Soviet Union.

Many posters identify the Holocaust with World War 2. That is a mistake. WW2, like WW1, could have been fought without the death camps. The Holocaust was incidental to WW2.

It is more accurate to see the Holocaust as yet another episode in the persecution of European Jewry that spanned nearly two millennia. For this the Christian churches must be much of the blame. They drenched Europe in anti-Jewish hatred.

Consider, for example the fourth century "Saint" Chrysostom's 8 "Homilies against the Jews."

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.html

"Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter."

Can't get much more explicit than that!

Here's what Martin Luther had to say about Jews:

http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

Some advice on how to handle the "Jewish menace."

"First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, …."

"Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."

"Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb."

"But if the authorities are reluctant to use force and restrain the Jews' devilish wantonness, the latter should, as we said, be expelled from the country…"
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Saturday, 22 March 2008 10:54:48 PM
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Dear Steven,

Thank you for understanding. I admit I have personal reasons for wanting the history of Stalin's atrocities to be taught. My father's family suffered brutally under the hands of the NKVD (now KGB).
I won't go into the horrific details - but none of them survived.

Some died with their entire families, others accepted their fates in concentration camps.

The evil architects themselves - escaped retribution, by dying. Others were never brought to justice.

While half of the criminals, the Nazis, have been pursued all over the world for their crimes, the other half, the communist criminals, were allowed to go free.

They were, in effect, given tacit permission to continue the operation of their concentration camps, to expand their draconian systems to include psychiatric wards, thereby raising torture, suppression, and murder to a science. The fact that the process persisted was vividly disclosed to the free world by Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn in his book, "The Gulag Archepelago."

The memories of those who perished at the hands of Hitler and Stalin during World War II are not revered by being forgotten. It does not honor those who suffered and died to only teach half of what happened.

We must remind all people to ensure that it does not happen again. Other wise like so many in the past, our society will be swept on the ash heap of history.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 23 March 2008 10:54:50 AM
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Jack the Holocaust Denier: "What is the difference between your 'decent education' and mine?"

One obvious difference is that I am capable of assessing the quality and veracity of information, while you are not. I'd also hypothesise that, while I've been the beneficiary of tertiary education at postgraduate level, you haven't.

If my hypothesis is true, these factors are likely to be related.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 23 March 2008 11:04:23 AM
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Foxy,

I entirely agree with you.

A Nazi or Nazi sympathiser is, rightly, regarded with revulsion. I am at a loss to know why the same does not apply to Soviet Communist and their sympathisers.

Those who sought to deny, explain away or minimise Stalin's and Mao's holocausts should be treated with the same derision "Jack the sad" and his ilk.

All our children have read The Gulag Archipelago.

The relationship between the Western leftie "intellectuals" and Soviet Communism is something that deserves much greater analysis. The lessons to be learned from examining the behaviour of the Soviet era left have obvious implications for today. It is the intellectual descendants of the Soviet era lefties who seek to deny, explain away or minimise the horrors of Islam.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Sunday, 23 March 2008 11:50:00 AM
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Vanilla, when you made out my source to be a UFO believer (which may or may not exist), you deliberately, again, ignored that the main source was Dr. Franciszek Piper. If that's not putting your head in the sand, nothing else comes close.
I don't mind ridicule (sticks and stones etc) but I don't see how it can be a substitute for reasoned argument. To counter claims that you don't agree with by calling someone a dolt or knuckledragger only looks smart or full of wit to those who agree with the counter-claimer.
I'm sorry that I can't come up to your expectations of 'sensible'. I suppose that's because I don't watch as much telly as you do.

CJ, I have some tertiary education (in a realistic practical subject) but not post-grad as you appear to allude to having. What was your subject - one of the many stupid courses that are springing up so that anyone can 'do UNI'?. It appears that you think this makes you some kind of superior know-all, lording it over the knuckledraggers. Then again, out in the bush an educated bumpkin will have delusions of grandeur.
Because I assessed information and came away with the opposite conclusion doesn't make me wrong and you right. Only ignorance and/or arrogance would lead to your conclusion. But what else should I expect from someone so up himself that he wrote 'I am capable of assessing the quality and veracity of information, while you are not'?
Aside from your formal education, have you ever experienced the so-called education of life? You wouldn't last ten minutes in certain situations.
Posted by Jack the Lad, Sunday, 23 March 2008 12:03:52 PM
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"You wouldn't last ten minutes in certain situations."

Like standing in front of you Jack?

I believe that what CJ is referring to is your selective use of evidence which leads to your "alternative conclusions". You don't look at the "same evidence" at all, you are being selective to what fits into your bias. And it's obvious.

For the record, Security Officer Certificate I at TAFE is not generally what is considered an appropriate "tertiary qualification" for determining the quality and veracity of historical sources.

Education of life, LOL. Prison guard knuckledragger.
Posted by Bugsy, Sunday, 23 March 2008 12:20:57 PM
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Jack: "I'm sorry that I can't come up to your expectations of 'sensible'. I suppose that's because I don't watch as much telly as you do."

I recommend House. He's good at solving puzzles, plus he's dishy.
Posted by Vanilla, Sunday, 23 March 2008 12:21:58 PM
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Much as it pains I have to side with "Jack the sad" on one issue.

A university education is no guarantee of the ability to think rationally. Let is not forget all those university educated "intellectuals" who adored Stalin, Mao and Ho Chi Minh.

Many university educated people in Germany supported Hitler and his Nazis. Among them were two Nobel-prize-winning physicists, Philipp Lenard and Johannes Stark.

In 2004 George Bush got a majority of votes from those with college degrees.

Ken Ham, the founder of the "Creation Museum" has a science degree from Queensland University.

Here is a quote from the works of Luce Irigaray, much beloved by university educated feminist intellectuals.

"Is E=mc squared a sexed equation? Perhaps it is. Let us make the hypothesis that it is insofar as it privileges the speed of light over other speeds that are vitally necessary to us. What seems to me to indicate the possible sexed nature of the equation is not directly its uses by nuclear weapons, rather it is having privileged what goes the fastest."

Only someone with a university education could write tripe like that. Only someone with a university education could revere the author as a great philosopher.

Ken Ham is not Australia's only contribution to the world of university educated idiots. This from Elspeth Probyn, Professor of "Gender Studies" at University of Sydney.

"The mouth machine registers experiences and then articulates them -- utters them. In eating we may munch into whole chains of previously established connotations, just as we may disrupt them.

"For instance, an email arrives, leaving traces of its rhizomatic passage zapping from one part of the world to another, and then to me.

'Unsolicited, it sets out a statement from a Dr Johannes Van Vugt, in San Francisco, who on October 11, 1999, National Coming Out Day in the US, began an ongoing 'Fast for Equal Rights for persons who are gay, lesbian and other sexual orientation minorities'."

Some of the sharpest thinkers I know have no tertiary education. However Jack the sad is not among those.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Sunday, 23 March 2008 12:50:12 PM
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Steven, seem to forget that most of those dictators purged most of their own "intellectuals". Even the lefties. They are not characterised by university educations or "leftie" intellectual support, they are characterised by base populism and a severe suspicion of intellectuals. Mao was a peasant with bad manners, Pol Pot removed an entire educated middle class in his pursuit of an agrarian 'utopia'. Stalin locked his dissenters up, Trotskyites and all. They could hardly have been labelled as "rightie" intellectuals.

And the list goes on...

While a university education is no indicator of whether an argument or conclusion is correct or not, the quality of the evidence used and lines of reasoning often show the difference.
Posted by Bugsy, Sunday, 23 March 2008 1:01:33 PM
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Jack the Lad,

What information did you source? Holocaust archives, indeed nazi WW2 archival material is held mainly in Germany; also Russia has some 16 miles of archival material which they captured when they invaded Germany - some of it only being released in the last few years.

To gain access the these archives, from which to base any argument is extremely difficult. One has to have a referrence from a recognised university or other august body, then there is the need for a security clearance, and other personal documentation. Then there is the need to be able to read German (and indeed other languages) to read this material

The nazi regime kept extremely efficient documentation; indeed a system of book-keeping.

Jews (and other groups murdered) were recorded - names, dates of birth, and origins - and often recorded in numerous places - from slave camps, and death camps, and deparmental offices.

Then there are the quantities of scientific documents - how long people take to die in gas chambers, how the time varied with the outside temperature (some 5 mins longer in winter), quantities of Zylon B gas needed, etc. The nazis first experimented on Russian POWs to determine the results. They also used carbon-monozide in death camps, and vans. But whatever they used, they knew exactly the outcome. They relied upon this information. Nazis were scientific, systematic and methodical in their application of the "Final Solution".

Goering was assigned the Four Year Plan - the estimated time the "Final Solution" would take. In fact, the nazi regime was so efficient in identifying Jews (indeed others) that they had the names of some 200 Jews in Albania targetted for extermination.

In May 1943, Alfred Franke-Gricksh inspected the Auschwitz-Birkenau extermination camp, and wrote a report describing the gas chambers and crematoria as an efficient "resettlement action".

cont ...
Posted by Danielle, Sunday, 23 March 2008 7:28:47 PM
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The extremely efficient Einsatzgruppen, and other death squads, kept very detailed records up till early 1943, but later tended to use euphenisms. Early 1943, Dr. Korherr, Inspector for Statistics, finished the exact statistical report from the Einsatzgruppen that 1,873,539 Jews had received "special treatment" - this report being sent to Hitler himself. Nazi officials whilst carefully recording statistics for large ghettos, often neglected the anihiliation of Jews in smaller ghettos.

I researched 17th century records in England - extremely benign material. Not only did I have to have documentation and a reference from my university, but also a security clearance, photograph and identification, which I had to show whenever I entered the British Museum archives. Other security measures were also in place. The archival staff knew me well. However, I still had to undergo these procedures daily, sometimes up to three times a day. In Record Offices the same strictures applied.

Those researching material in German archives would be even more closely scrutinised, and undergo greater security appraisal before they would be permitted near such material.

I agree with Steven, that you don’t have to be university educated to be capable of evaluating material and arriving at an informed decision; but you certainly have to be allowed - granted permission - to research and access the primary sources.
Posted by Danielle, Sunday, 23 March 2008 7:33:23 PM
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Danielle,
I sugest that Society's Records Guardians are extremely concerned with the theft and truthfull reproduction of historical records.Hence the need for scrutiny of researchers.

I think this is a good idea .

The purging of old records of incriminating material I sugest, is probably a natural response by members of a group that may have carried out genocidal or racist violent acts against another group .

History needs to be respected and it's records observed by and available to the interested public - not to inflame, but to bring awareness of our strengths and weaknesses.
Posted by kartiya jim, Sunday, 23 March 2008 8:55:48 PM
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Danielle

Superb informative posts.

And demonstrating the value of applied reasoning that some of us are gifted with and others have to learn.

Thank you
Posted by Fractelle, Monday, 24 March 2008 8:08:14 AM
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I can almost guarantee that Jack the Holocaust Denier has never been anywhere near any original or archival material in the course of his 'research'.

And no, you don't need to have a degree in order to assess information and analyse data - but they are certainly major skills that any good student acquires as part of their tertiary studies. Of course, the spoon-fed "practical" courses that really belong in TAFEs don't require such skills.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 24 March 2008 9:03:31 AM
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Danielle, who's to say what records are genuine and what are false? As you rightly point out, a lot of previously buried records are now coming out of the FSU. I believe that, as time goes by, more and more records refuting the holohoax will appear. These may or may not be genuine also so it'll still be up to each and everyone to form their own opinions. We will never know for sure. Still, no-one who has had a go at me over the denial has ever tried to explain why such denial is illegal in some countries. If holohoax denial is so innacurate, why make it a crime? If we're so wrong, shouldn't deniers be laughed at instead of prosecuted?

CJ, I can guarantee that I have had as much contact with 'original or archival material' as anyone posting against me. However you take that is up to you.
Posted by Jack the Lad, Monday, 24 March 2008 11:32:37 AM
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Danielle,

Fascinating posts. I had a similar experience when I wanted to access archival material on Gandhi in South Africa many years ago.

My hope is that one day all this material will be scanned and made available on the internet. Now that would advance the teaching of history.

Bugsy,

Yes Lenin and Stalin did liquidate many of the intellectuals who had supported the revolution. Others were sent to the Gulag.

And guess what? University educated leftie "intellectuals" in the West continued to revere Stalin while he was killing and exiling their counterparts in the Soviet Union.

The catastrophe of the cultural revolution did little to diminish Mao in the eyes of university educated lefties.

And how did the university educated lefties justify their support for such monsters. Mostly they dismissed negative reporting about the Soviet Union or Communist China as "imperialist" or "anti-Soviet" propaganda.

How little has changed. Today the same university educated lefties call negative reporting on Islam "Islamophobia." They accuse those of us who point to the horrors of Islam of "demonising" Muslims and call us "prejudiced."

Much as I would love to think that a university degree was a guarantee of the ability to think clearly, all the evidence points the other way. Some university educated people are able to think clearly and reason objectively and rationally. Many are not.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Monday, 24 March 2008 11:34:33 AM
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I tend to think that we should consider a high school curriculum which involves critical reasoning as a core subject, with an emphasis on some of the more common fallacies and how they are employed.

It's mind-boggling how often the same fallacies are repeated over and over on these boards.

If the curriculum included some of the more commonly employed fallacies here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

I think we'd have a more informed and ultimately less easily manipulated populace.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Monday, 24 March 2008 11:45:57 AM
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TLTR I like the wiki link. Have browsed it briefly and will return to review it further.

I agree with the thrust of yours and stevenlmeyers posts.

The role of “educators” at all levels, from primary to tertiary, is not to indoctrinate their students with facts or values (leave that to the Jesuits and Leninists) but to train the student in the skills needed to arrive at conclusions, independently, for themselves.

There is another article / thread in the other section of OLO “Politics in the lecture theatre” which is making the same challenge.
Posted by Col Rouge, Monday, 24 March 2008 12:22:02 PM
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TRTL

I've never understood why Critical Thinking hasn't been a part of the curriculum at secondary level. Apart from preparing those inclined for Uni, it would provide an excellent basis for anyone entering the adult world. Also the inclusion of Philosophy would be an ideal companion subject.

As for the nefarious level of fallacious arguments, I think the 'red herring' has to be the most insidious here at OLO.

School curriculum overhaul is urgently needed.
Posted by Fractelle, Monday, 24 March 2008 12:26:41 PM
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The Holocaust is as well documented as it is possible for any historical event to be. Apart from tens of thousands of eye witness accounts we have mountains of archival material in the hands of the US, British and former Soviet governments. These detail almost every aspect of the Holocaust. The different sources of evidence are mutually corroborating.

The recently released Soviet material fills in some of the gaps but does not contradict the archival material in Western hands.

Anyone who thinks this is some kind of a hoax and that archival material on that scale could be forged has, to put it gently, a tenuous grip on reality. They have no understanding of how quickly a skilled archivist would be able to spot a forgery.

There is no more rational reason to doubt the Holocaust than there is to doubt the second law of thermodynamics, the historicity of Napoleon or the existence of the Pacific Ocean.

The reason why some people deny the Holocaust in the face of all the evidence may be of interest to psychologists, brain researchers and sociologists. However the rants of such a person are of no interest to a serious researcher.

One may pity a Holocaust denier but there is no more point in trying to engage him or her in debate than there is in trying to reason with someone who has advanced Alzheimer's.

The only thing that interests me about Jack the sad is why he denies the Holocaust. But I do not expect to get a rational answer from him.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Monday, 24 March 2008 3:41:31 PM
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Jack the Lad

“why such denial is illegal in some countries.”

Look at the countries in which it is illegal. Without a knee-jerk reaction, think very carefully and use your deducive ability as to why this is so. Alternatively, read official transcripts from such countries as to why this has been implemented.

Steven has more than adequately explained the nature of archival material. When Hitler’s “diaries” emerged, they were subjected to forensic analysis revealing that not only was Hitler’s writing forged, but also both the paper on which it was written and the ink was made post-war. And this was only the forensic analysis ...

Other writers raise very important points. Absolutely valid.

Yes ... yes! Critical Thinking and Philosophy should be core subjects at school; indeed, perhaps Political Science. Also, the teaching of students how to research and evaluate data.

Once given permission and the tools for young people to think beyond prejudices they may hear, indeed think for themselves, they become amazingly skillful at assessing facts; so desparately needed in our society. Not only in the political and historical areas, but also in science ... the rise of creationism and intelligent design ... With the rapid movements in science itself, the broader community must become involved in many of the ethical delimmas to which they will be confronted.

The media also needs to be put under the lens ...

Critical Thinking and research skills should be introduced gradually as soon as children can read and use a computer. Their enquirying minds make this a suitable time to start. By the time they reach university, indeed leave school, these skills should be as automatic as breathing.

Steven,

“My hope is that one day all this material will be scanned and made available on the internet. Now that would advance the teaching of history.”

Absolutely.

cont ...
Posted by Danielle, Monday, 24 March 2008 7:11:16 PM
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“ ... university educated lefties justify their support for such monsters. Mostly they dismissed negative reporting about the Soviet Union or Communist China as "imperialist" or "anti-Soviet" propaganda.”

Unhappily, correct. They refused to recognise the evidence, even from those who had experienced atrocities first-hand. Communism was their religion. It must be noted that most lefties at university had never experienced anything more traumatic than losing their car-keys.

“Today the same university educated lefties call negative reporting on Islam "Islamophobia." They accuse those of us who point to the horrors of Islam of "demonising" Muslims and call us "prejudiced.”

They are not doing Muslims any favours by doing this. Muslim intellectuals and dissidents in Iran look to the West for moral support against the Islamic atrocities in their country. Again, Iranian intellectuals and dissidents regularly “disappear”. Where is our support for them?

Arab Muslim intellectuals also raise their voices to be heard about the horrors that are being committed in Islam’s name, the appalling numbers of those kept illiterate in their countries; indeed, these same intellectuals issue warnings to the West . Their voices are not heard above the din of the West’s “intellectuals.” An Arab intellectual observed bitterly, that by ignoring these facts, the West’s “ high priests” are effectively relegating them to the status of “the white man’s burden”. Their suffering is of no consequence; much like how past “intellectuals” viewed the victims of Stalin and Mao.

Santayana observed:

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

And the new “intellectuals” are doing this so very, very well.
Posted by Danielle, Monday, 24 March 2008 7:13:50 PM
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stevenlmeyer: "And how did the university educated lefties justify their support for such monsters. Mostly they dismissed negative reporting about the Soviet Union or Communist China as "imperialist" or "anti-Soviet" propaganda.

How little has changed. Today the same university educated lefties call negative reporting on Islam "Islamophobia." They accuse those of us who point to the horrors of Islam of "demonising" Muslims and call us "prejudiced." "

Nice segue Steven. Perhaps you should consult TRTL's list of logical fallacies? Look up "Post hoc ergo propter hoc", for example.

There is no logical or historical connection whatsoever between Stalinism and Islam. The connection that Steven tries to draw between communist academics and those of us who now object to Islamophobic ranting by people like Steven is tenuous at best.

Steven, I really do try and respect you, but you make it difficult sometimes.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 24 March 2008 8:30:05 PM
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I agree Danielle, to a point.

I understand that many Muslim intellectuals have a number of grievances, both specific and general, within their political regimes and with much of what is being done in the name of their religion by so called "clerics" and various extremist political organisations. I think we should listen to them.

However, I do not hear them calling for an end to emigration to the West, nor for the demonisation of Muslim individuals by calling them all potential child molesters and wife beaters, nor for a wholesale conversion of Muslims into the Christian faith. This does noone any help whatsoever.

What needs to be done is to stop with the antagonism and to address and support dissent with their own cultures on the specific issues, eg, womens rights with Islamic countries, and many many others. Shouting about how they are going to introduce Sharia law and they should all be feared helps noone.

Fear of the 'other' is what starts these atrocities, that is what I oppose, and it doesn't matter whether you are Muslim, Christian or Atheist, I will oppose this fearmongering and demonisation always.
Posted by Bugsy, Monday, 24 March 2008 8:37:47 PM
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Just to be clear on something, I do not support censorship. Therefore I cannot support the criminalising of Holocaust denial. Even people as manifestly out of touch with reality as Holocaust deniers should be free to have their say.

It follows also that I abhor Victoria's so-called "Racial and Religious Tolerance Act 2001." If ever a piece of legislation deserved to be called Orwellian this is it. It reminds me of the "Ministry of Truth" in 1984.

It is my view that when it comes to free speech anything short of actual incitement to violence, NARROWLY DEFINED, should be permitted.

"Narrowly defined" is an important qualification. Obama's pastor accusing the US Government of inventing HIV as an instrument of genocide against Blacks is inflammatory and tells us that the reverend's grip on reality is as tenuous as that of Jack the sad. But it is not an incitement to violence.

Here is an example of what I would consider an actual incitement to violence.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/24/2197660.htm

Quote:

"In the video, Bashir urges those in the village to beat up tourists that disrespect Islamic ways, saying, "If there are infidels here, then beat them up. Do not tolerate them".
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Monday, 24 March 2008 11:26:39 PM
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Danielle, holohoax denial is illegal in Germany and Austria because they were the alleged culprits. Their governments may or may not have believed in the claimed events but were pressurised into adopting the illegality laws to avoid any accusations of being 'closet Nazis'. But why then is it illegal in Canada?

I agree that Hitler's diaries were proved to be fake. I have also read that forensic analysis showed that Anne Frank's diaries were partially written in biro. As Ladilas Biro didn't invent his pen till well after the war, what could that mean (if true)?

Steven asked sad ol' me why I deny the holohoax. No agenda. No conspiracy theory. I just read up on the for and against after visiting Auschwitz/Birkenau as it didn't look too convincing (in fact, Movieworld on the Gold Coast has more genuine looking sets - as does Sovereign Hill). Is that rational enough for him? I actually began my visit to the 'camps' beleiving in the holohoax.
And before he accuses me of anti-Semitism (another label for holohoax deniers), I have nothing against mainstream Jews, but their fundamentalists are as bad as Christian or Muslim fundamentalists.
Hey, I loved the Marx Brothers when I was a kid. I'm also a fan of Ben Elton, Alexei Sayle, Larry David amongst many more.
Posted by Jack the Lad, Tuesday, 25 March 2008 12:15:56 PM
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Steven,

Why I don't see the school curriculum idea as negatively as you is because I believe that without some systematic rememberance of history it gets repeated. Currently this seems a more imminent danger for the communist regimes than for the Nazi holocaust but given time it could be a problem.

Not everyone will react to "Schindler's List" or "Life is Beautiful" or "The Diary of Ann Frank" or "Karol" like you do but they should at least have an awareness that it happened.
Posted by mjpb, Tuesday, 25 March 2008 1:51:04 PM
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Jack the Lad,

No-one pressured Germany nor Austria, nor other countries to make Holocaust Denial illegal. Go online and read their transcripts. I presume you can read German.

I can only assume that you obtained your facts about the "Diary of Anne Frank" from the Roy Taylor Ministries website, which has emblazed upon it: "THE PEOPLE OF SATAN, ARE THE JEWS, AND THE BIBLE SAY'S SO." This site also covers such rivetting topics as "THE GENETIC CODE IS THE GENESIS WORD IN THE BOOK OF LIFE," and "GLOBAL WARMING AND THE SIXTH ANGEL." Others can access this site and draw their own conclusions.

I'm sorry that Auschwitz didn't impress you.

Both a son and a daughter visited Auschwitz. My daughter burst into tears when she entered.

My son who spent some years in Germany researching archival primary sources for a thesis, which eventually was published as a book, found the material so appalling he was constantly sickened. He wrote home once that while sitting on a parkbench watching a dried leaf crumble away, he felt such hopelessness for what mankind was capable of, that he wished he could crumble away also.

On his return to Australia, he was asked to research and write another book. He couldn't face the prospect. And yes, the sources he used were all archival bone fide original documents. He not only reads and speaks modern German, but can also read German going back as far as the 16th century.

Incidentally, in case you think he is a wimp. He is not. He has worked on archaeological sites in the grimmest parts of the world. This was an interest of his.
Posted by Danielle, Tuesday, 25 March 2008 7:55:39 PM
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mjpb

I tend to agree with you. The victims of Stalin and Mao should not be forgotten, nor used as a footnote.

As far as the Holocaust is concerned, as stated, before that this occurred in the most civilised country in Europe, and Hitler came to power in a democracy - and not that distant in time. His methods for achieving power and the propoganda machine he used to demonise Jews and others, whilst exhalting Germans as a super-race, in fact the entire blue-print he used, would be a salutary lesson for others.
Posted by Danielle, Tuesday, 25 March 2008 8:05:56 PM
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Let me just say that I'm in complete agreement with the recent posts from Danielle, Bugsy and mjpb.

There are huge lessons for us in the Holocaust - and all the other attempted genocides of the 20th century, up to and including Rwanda - that some among us appear perversely unwilling to learn. I think that Danielle's point about the fact that the Holocaust occurred relatively recently, in a supposedly democratic country central to Western culture, is most salient.

Within the lifetimes of millions of people who are still alive, some of the most unspeakable crimes were committed by a society that was in many ways the apotheosis of modern Western culture. I find it fascinating how easy it seems for our society to forget - indeed, in some pathological cases like Jack the sad (thanks Steven), to pretend it never happened.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 25 March 2008 8:21:32 PM
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Danielle, of course Germany and Austria's governments won't admit to pressure. I see that you never commented on Canada even though I asked you. As you answered '“why such denial is illegal in some countries.”' by 'Look at the countries in which it is illegal', I would have thought that you must know something about Canada that I don't.
As for the Roy Taylor Ministries website, I'd never heard of him or his site till you mentioned it and I googled his site. I couldn't find any mention of Anne Frank, maybe you could point me to whatever part of that website that you read about her diary.
Yor son and daughter were emotional about their Oswiecim/Brezinka visit because they believe in the holohoax. A natural reaction for believers.

CJ, am I the 'sad' or 'the holocaust' denier? Certainly not the 'sad holohoax denier' as I am happy with my beliefs. Better than being a pompous git that believes what he has been spoon-fed and feels obliged to hurl petty insults at those who do not confirm to his narrow little world-view. If that's the product of your post grad education that you love to brag about, you must be quite pathetic.
Posted by Jack the Lad, Wednesday, 26 March 2008 2:49:38 PM
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Jack, if you really want us to take you seriously, stop being coy about your sources. Show us the forensic analysis that revealed Anne Frank's diaries were partially written in biro. Where have you been reading up? Give us the good stuff, not the dodgy websites. We want the original sources and refereed articles.
Posted by Vanilla, Wednesday, 26 March 2008 3:13:12 PM
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There is an old Russian proverb that says:

'No, don't! Don't dig up the past!
Dwell on the past and you'll lose an eye.'

But the proverb goes on to say:

'Forget the past
And you'll lose both eyes.'

Decades have gone by, and the scars and sores of the past are healing over for good. However, unless we learn from the tragedies of the past, it is unlikely that we will have much of a future to contemplate. The moral choice is ours to make.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 26 March 2008 4:10:36 PM
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Ok I've got mine Vanilla!

http://www.annefrank.org/content.asp?PID=794&LID=2

Now show us yours Jack. (...and try not to quote David Irving! LOL)
Posted by Bugsy, Wednesday, 26 March 2008 7:36:34 PM
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Vanilla, there's not much point in giving any of my sources as you seem to be of the opinion that, if you don't agree with their content, they're some kind of loony conspiracy theory set-up. You should go back to watching telly, where I believe that you get most of your ideas. Here's one original source though, Dr. Franciszek Piper, senior curator and director of archives of the Auschwitz State Museum. I've already told you that but you choose to ignore it as he dares to state what you don't want to hear. Here's another link anyway

http://www.vivamalta.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-4201.html

I'm sure that you'll find fault with it.

Bugsy/Brian, well of course the Anne Frank Organisation would dispute the claim that the diaries were partly written in biro. What else would you expect? Next you'll be defending Christianity because the bible supports it.
David Irving, Frederick Toben, Arthur Butz are but a few amongst many. So you can LOL all you want.
Posted by Jack the Lad, Thursday, 27 March 2008 12:44:37 PM
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There are other independent sources that confirm the "ballpoint written pages" as being annotations by a researcher inserted at a much later date- these have never been published.

So that link is your 'forensic report' is it? It's a blog page. I think the comment are quite telling as to who subscribes to it.

Try harder Jack.

And exactly what has Dr. Franciszek Piper said that supports the hoax theory? Oh yes, at least 1.1 million people died at Auschwitz-Birkenau, of whom at least 1 million were Jewish. Yes, thats a hell of hoax.
Posted by Bugsy, Thursday, 27 March 2008 1:47:20 PM
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Jack the Lad,

That link you gave is to a white supremist page; even a link to David Duke. Those here only have to go to the index page and enter a few categories and see for themselves. This group hate blacks as much as they do Jews, indeed there is a long list .. The "On Race" category is intolerable - disgusting. Anyone who subscribes to these ideas ... indeed this blogsite ...

I suspect that for white supremists daily life is an ongoing challenge - thus their need to hate everyone else - to accommodate their own inadequacy.

Everyone can see exactly from where you are coming, Jack the Lad. A WHITE SUPREMIST!
Ye gods ...!!

Are you allied to Jack van Tongeran? Perhaps the very man himself!!

No wonder the posters here are bemused by your 'dah' comments. Many well educated people don't bear fools gladly. You have come off very lightly ... very lightly, indeed.
Posted by Danielle, Thursday, 27 March 2008 4:34:14 PM
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Dear Jack the Lad,

I'm not easily shocked - but I looked up the sites you recommended for
'vivamalta.'

How can a man who considers himself civilized, or even capable of becoming so, recommend these dreadful, merciless, and above all, most unnecessary sites?

People who contribute to those sites have climbed down the steps from the human condition to that of beasts.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 27 March 2008 8:40:44 PM
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Foxy, Danielle, Bugsy,

What is the point of trying to debate Holocaust deniers?

I mean that seriously.

What do you imagine you will achieve by debating Jack the sad?

Holocaust deniers will always have some baloney website that, in what passes for their minds, trumps any amount of scholarly evidence you care to introduce.

May I suggest that you devote your time to something more intellectually stimulating like reading the phone book?

I once made the mistake of asking a Holocaust denier how it would be even possible to fake all the archival evidence. I pointed out that it would cost billions of dollars and involve thousands of people to get it right.

Just one type face that did not match the type faces used by the SS or the Wehrmacht would give the game away.

Just one of the thousands of people employed to type up all those documents blabbing to the media with a few sample documents and a credible story of how it was done would blow the whole thing wide open. Papers like the Guardian or the Independent would be all over the story. It would be the scoop of the century.

I pointed out that:

--Nobody in their right minds would spend the billions of dollars it would take to create all those forgeries.

--Given the number of people that would have had to be involved it would be impossible to keep it a secret.

His reply:

You Jews have ways of doing it.

I guess the game is up. "We Jews" have supernatural powers. We can conjure whole archives into existence.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Thursday, 27 March 2008 9:20:12 PM
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stevenlmeyer I can understand your frustration. However, we who respect freedom of speech do so understanding the possibility of its abuse and understand that to set up a system which censors the abuse greater enhances the risks to those who respect truth as much as the lairs and hoaxers.

Regarding your confrontation with your denier re

“His reply:

You Jews have ways of doing it.”

My suggestion is keep up the challenge, whack the ball back into his side of the court. Ask him “what ways?” .

The only way a denier “wins” is by exhausting the will of those who believe in honesty

and the only way he loses is by you exposing him as a liar.

Freedom of speech allows us to defend what we see as truth and honesty. No one ever promised us it would be a light thing to carry, only that the alternative is a far more onerous a burden to endure.
Posted by Col Rouge, Thursday, 27 March 2008 10:11:13 PM
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Col,

As I have made plain many times, Holocaust deniers have every right to say whatever they like. Laws against Holocaust denial are worse than Holocaust denial itself. Freedom of speech must prevail or we are all lost.

But that does not mean I have to fall into the trap of debating Holocaust deniers. There is no more point in debating a Holocaust denier than there is in debating a virus. Both are equally impervious to reason.

Hence while I regard the phenomenon of Holocaust denial as interesting, I find Holocaust deniers themselves boring. They're all alike in their in their obsessions. When you've seen one you've seen them all.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Friday, 28 March 2008 12:55:34 AM
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Steven

I am just amazed that this thread has gone on for as long as it has.

Of course schools should teach all there is to teach about 20th century history - even the sceptical position, why it is completely incorrect and the agenda that drives it; we need to teach our children how to think. That way bigots like Jack won't even get the time of day in future. All his 'evidence' comes from white supremist organisations - I had a look, then I took a shower.

Regards
Posted by Fractelle, Friday, 28 March 2008 9:36:54 AM
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Steven,

You are completely correct about Holocaust deniers and their fellow travellers who claim a world conspiracy by Jews. When pointed out that the world's population is over 6.5 billion and the population of Jews worldwide is 13 million, they still cring to their conspiracy theories. Jews indeed must have superman powers.

I agree that debating one on one, or even against several is quite pointless, and the best thing is to walk away

However, in other situations, I am entirely at one with Col Rouge: "to whack the ball back into his side of the court"; indeed take the fight right into his territory.

This is an open forum. Anyone who wishes can join OLO. Some may be quite ignorant about the Holocaust, indeed Stalin's and Mao's purges, and wander onto particular threads. Unless those charlatans denying or diminishing such horrors are challenged, shown up for what they are, those less knowledgeable may go away with completely erroneous ideas. We owe it not only to history, but also to those who died.

As Col Rouge stated so aptly: "No one ever promised us it would be a light thing to carry, only that the alternative is a far more onerous a burden to endure."

This can also be personally painful.
Posted by Danielle, Friday, 28 March 2008 1:38:28 PM
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Fractelle,

YOU are BRILLIANT.

Teaching children about those with certain agendas, their tools, and aims.

Not only teaching children historical facts, but also giving them to knowledge to identify
such groups and their methods.

Members of such groups, as White Supremists, would also have been school children. By naivete, environment, or by predisposition, they were vulnerable to its teachings. Teaching school children about them would be to lessen, hopefully, the membership of
such detestable groups.

Fractelle, A brilliant idea!
Posted by Danielle, Friday, 28 March 2008 1:56:32 PM
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Bugsy/Brian, the blog page gave quotes and sources. Did you read it all or are you only interested in hoax-denial? Your sources were the Anne Frank Organisation (how biased would that be?) and 'other independent sources' that 'have never been published'.
Bugsy somehow has access to unpublished materials? Could they be his own pathetic scribblings? Try harder Brian.
Here's another case of your failure to read and comprehend. Dr Piper did not state that 'at least 1.1 million people died at Auschwitz-Birkenau', the source stated was the 'Leuchter Report in 1988'. Dr Piper stated 'that 'Krema 1,' the alleged 'homicidal gas chamber' shown off to hundreds of thousands of tourists every year at the Auschwitz main camp, was, in fact, fabricated after the war by the Soviet Union -apparently on the direct orders of Josef Stalin'. Go back and read the page again - thouroughly.

Danielle, so I'm a White Supremacist because I deny the holocaust? Is that meant to upset me and make me into a spoon-fed believer? 'Many well educated people don't bear fools gladly' - many well educated people don't take what history tells them for granted either.
As for 'You have come off very lightly ... very lightly, indeed' - what is that meant to mean? Especially from someone who is ignoring the 'Canada' question. Maybe you're a 'Canada-denier'.
BTW, White Supremacists don't hate everybody, they prefer their own race and believe it to be the highest. It appears that that gets up your nose.
Posted by Jack the Lad, Friday, 28 March 2008 2:17:12 PM
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Fractelle, I'm amazed that you took a shower. Weren't you scared that the nasty White Supremacists would use it to pump ZyklonB through it?

Steven 'I pointed out that it would cost billions of dollars and involve thousands of people to get it right' ie 'fake' the holocaust.
How did you arrive at these figures? You may be partly right as Stalin had millions of people at his disposal. That would back up Dr Piper's assertion that the camp was fabricated on Stalin's orders. You wrote 'There is no more point in debating a Holocaust denier than there is in debating a virus'. If that statement is your idea of debate, you can call me Shlomo. Of course you must be right because your views are still those of the majority.
Posted by Jack the Lad, Friday, 28 March 2008 2:18:56 PM
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LOL folks, I rest my case.

As impervious to reason as a virus.

Stalin, for reasons nobody can fathom, used slave labour to fake the Holocaust!

And no refugee from the Soviet Union ever revealed this fact?

When Solzhenitsin wrote the "Gulag Archipelago" he somehow left that bit out?

A characteristic of all Holocaust deniers is that they reverse Occam's razor. Instead of going for the simplest explanation they favour the most convoluted, complex, incredible explanations they can conceive
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Friday, 28 March 2008 2:53:27 PM
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Stevenlmeyer “But that does not mean I have to fall into the trap of debating Holocaust deniers. There is no more point in debating a Holocaust denier than there is in debating a virus. Both are equally impervious to reason.”

I must admit reading jack-the-lads latest offerings I can see your point.

Danielle “Unless those charlatans denying or diminishing such horrors are challenged, shown up for what they are, those less knowledgeable may go away with completely erroneous ideas. We owe it not only to history, but also to those who died”

More importantly Danielle, we also owe it to our children and grand children.

The only chance we have of respecting and benefiting from the sacrifice of the dead in past wars is to try and learn from the reasons they gave up their lives.
Those reasons include opposing the sort of government which murdered, through gas, torture and starvation, over 10 million people, considered as political opponents and subhuman.

Although I politically oppose them, I consider holocaust deniers fully entitled to share the free speech they use to lie about the holocaust.

I do ask them, however, in their denial of the holocaust, what sort of freedoms should be extended to people, including me as a political opponent, under the political system they are defending?

The right to die on the boot of an SS man?

The right to be experimented on by a Mengele?

The right to have all your personal property stolen by the state?

The right to be locked into a ghetto and starved to death?

I sincerely invite Jack the Lad to make his contribution.

How would you treat me Jack, as a vociforous opponent of fascism, having 2 Jewish great grandmothers. What could I expect from the political system which you are steadfastly defending by denying that the holocaust happened and which I assume you would like to see running Australia?
Posted by Col Rouge, Friday, 28 March 2008 4:16:59 PM
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Dear Steven,

I am amazed at your patience, self-control, and civility.

I don't know if I agree with you though about it being pointless in arguing with a 'denier.'

I think I'd argue a bit longer.

But perhaps you're right - why give them more attention?

The education of our children is where we should concentrate our attention. As I've written in another thread - what is important is the content of our children's hearts and minds, or what is often described as character. When we say, 'It's what's inside that counts,'
we speak a simple but profound truth.

Our role as parents is not to protect our children from the truth, but to protect them from something less than the truth!

As far as the 'deniers' are concerned - when we cease to listen, then they no longer exist!
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 28 March 2008 5:43:28 PM
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Ah Jack, I know that you are being deliberately obtuse, but what the heck, I did write the sentence incorrectly.

1) The ball-point written annotations of Anne Frank's diary were never published, as they do not constitute a part of the original diary.

2) The Netherlands Institute for War Documentation (NIOD) prepared The Diary of Anne Frank: Critical Edition which details all the annotations and history of the manuscript. I believe they are what you would call independent.

3) You have obviously not read the Leuchter Report, because Dr. Piper does not say anything in it. At all. Nothing. Zip. Nada. Zilch. I know this because it's available online.
http://www.ihr.org/books/leuchter/leuchter.toc.html
and here too
http://vho.org/dl/ENG/tlr.pdf (if you want to waste your bandwidth)

In fact, what you may be referring to is David Coles interview with Dr. Piper in 1992, take note of that date, because that's what real researchers do. Not 1988, 1992.
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/DC/gcgvcole.html

If you watch the video and read the transcript, you will see (and hear) that Dr. Piper does not even mention Stalin or basically anything that you have said, but that the Krema I was restored to its original condition. Man, you guys have really overactive imaginations. Dr. Piper is also on record as having revised the death figures for Auschwitz-Birkenau as 1.1 million. That is no small number.

That you have totally lied about 'reading forensic reports' and quoting people that never said what you claim does not come as any surprise, it's just what you do.
Posted by Bugsy, Friday, 28 March 2008 7:51:29 PM
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Col Rouge, if you'd bothered to read my previous posts, you would know that I have nothing against Jews. As with other posters who believe I have the right to deny the holohoax, you sure get angry when I do so.
Also, why is it that by being a denier, you automatically regard me as an enemy of freedom? I believe in free speech and thought. By your latest post, you clearly don't. You ask what freedoms should be extended to political opponents - same as me; freedom to think and believe what they want, and the freedom to say so.
As a 'vociforous opponent of fascism' you have every right to be so. Just as I have every right to believe in whatever system that I want to - though I haven't stated whether or not Fascism is that particular system. That was just your accusation.

Steven, thanks for more of your reasoned, unbiased input. I hope that debating with a virus doesn't give you a nasty flu.

Bugsy/Brian, if you go back and read again, you will see that I never wrote that Dr Piper was involved with the Leuchter Report. You should really try to get your facts right and not 'totally lie'. BTW, what did you think of the Leuchter Report? No matter who you credit with the 'downsizing', the revised death-figures of 1.1 million is a fair drop from 4.1 million. I wonder how low it will be after the next 'revision'. The fact that you apparently accept the 'revised' figure is a step in the right direction for you.

This subject has proved that a so-called denier can keep going in a calm manner, while the defenders of the status quo get all fired up with disparaging comments etc. Must be a message there.
Posted by Jack the Lad, Sunday, 30 March 2008 11:00:49 AM
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Dear Jack the Lad,

Man's greatest inheritance is the gift of speech.

Some words run softly, almost soundlessly on tiptoe.

Others clump around like an under-nine fottball team in a cement floor dressing shed.

Some soothe like cold cream on sunburn. While others set your blood pounding and your heart singing.

There are words so rounded at the edges and softened by wear that they are no longer words at all, but the sounds that people make for happiness or despair, joy or anger.

There are words that are randy, but not dirty. And sacred words that have become soiled with improper use.

Some words stick like burrs and punish at a touch. And there are others that nurse the ego and heal the heart.

Posters on this Forum are most fortunate people in that they get to have a say, even though they don't always deserve to be heard. It's a nice indulgence and we all take advantage of it. None of it is meant to be profound, although it can be wise and at times even clever. But
none of it should hurt anyone or do harm.

And when we see that harm has been done ... then some of us of-course react to it.

That is the message that you need to deeply think about Jack.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 30 March 2008 12:29:42 PM
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Foxy,

I urge you to let it go. There is never any point in trying to argue or reason with a Holocaust denier.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Sunday, 30 March 2008 1:12:58 PM
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Jack

"White Supremacists don't hate everybody, they prefer their own race and believe it to be the highest. It appears that that gets up your nose."

You're a white supremist. That says it all. You have ably demonstrated the calibre of these people. There is no need to continue.
Posted by Danielle, Sunday, 30 March 2008 1:26:55 PM
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Dear Steven,

I hear what you're saying. And I will listen to you, I promise.

I find it so sad and painful.

The memories of those who perished at the hands of Hitler (and Stalin),during World War II are not revered by the mockery of denial.

It does not honor those who suffered and died that we now argue over numbers et cetera.

I find all this contrary to the most fundamental Western principles of justice, denial compounds the tragedy of World War II.

At all times, vigilance is the price of liberty. We must remain vigilant because while it might be us today, it will be some other group down the road 20 years from now - whose history will be denied.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 30 March 2008 2:19:50 PM
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Oh Jack, it seems that you are getting very confused.

For anyone following this, and for your own mind (as fractured as it seems to be) I might just point out some the confusing bits:

Originally you provided a link that you refer to on several threads. For the lazy amongst us the website itself is: http://www.rense.com/general53/aauz.htm

This you purport to say quotes Dr. Franciszek Piper, senior curator and director of archives of the Auschwitz State Museum.

You make a great deal about statements from Dr. Piper being 'quality evidence', in fact you seem quite insistent that it should be counted as such.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1593#30463
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1602#30911

You also posted another BLOG link(Why blogs? Can't you find decent original material?)
Since you seemed so insistent on Dr. Piper's statements, I decided to look up the video that purports to have these statements by him. I know it's the same one referred to in your original post, because it was shot by David Cole in mid-1992.
I posted the link also (but here it is again, because I know you don't like to actually think too hard about finding sources, Jack):
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/DC/gcgvcole.html

if you ever to read the transcript (or watch the video, I know you love this kind of stuff, not too much reading), you would find the the opening statement by Dr. Piper is:
"The first and the oldest gas chamber, which existed in Auschwitz I, this camp where we are now here, operated from autumn 1941 to December 1942, approximately one year. The crematorium near by this gas chamber worked longer, to the middle of 1943"
Doesn't sound right? You said Dr. Piper said that "the camp was fabricated on Stalin's orders".
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1602#31323

However Dr. Piper never mentions Stalin at all.

In the same video by David Cole he says very clearly that Dr. Piper claimed that 1.1 million people were killed at Asuhwitz-Birkenau and this is accepted as being on the record (he published it- http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl/html/eng/aktualnosci/news_big.php?id=563).
Yet you directly claimed that: "Dr Piper did not state that 'at least 1.1 million people died at Auschwitz-Birkenau'"
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1602#31322

Someone's confused.
Posted by Bugsy, Sunday, 30 March 2008 8:59:12 PM
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That Piper's revision was in the interests of real history, matters not to you, you don't hold that it happened at all, despite so much evidence and documents to the contrary.

Unless of course all your confusion is because you're playing that stupid Devil's Advocate game again:
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1343#24746
(that was really lame BTW).

As for Leuchter's report, I find it in adequate (no surprise to you I am sure).
Documents from the Waffen SS in camp archives contradict Leuchter's report directly, and he said (in court) he was unaware of them when he wrote the report, probably because he never went into the archives.
These SS documents are what is considered "corroborating evidence" and tell the real story.

As for his qualifications for writing an engineering report which also relies heavily on toxicology, biology or chemistry?

He had a BA in History.

I wait in eager anticipation any 'forensic reports' on the biro written sections of Anne Franks diary.
Posted by Bugsy, Sunday, 30 March 2008 9:11:09 PM
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Danielle, it appears that when you don't get your way with mr, you automatically label me a 'supremist' or supremacist. The Chinese believe theirselves to be superior - how do you feel about Chinese Supremacists? Ditto the Japanese. How about the Black Panthers with their Black Power salute? How do you feel about them? Or will you refuse to answer an put this in the 'too hard' basket with Canada? You wrote 'There is no need to continue.' - what, no more of your mud-slinging (oops, I meant reasoned debate)?

Foxy, I've thought deeply. How can my beliefs or non-beliefs be harming any of you? So denial is mockery, is it? Well, Steven's religion denies that your Jesus Christ was the son of God. Therefore he is mocking your saviour by your logic.

Not confused Bugsy/Brian, keep trying. I persisted with the Dr Piper link as those I quoted it to chose to ignore it while continuing to attack my beliefs. You went on about the link 'This you purport to say quotes Dr. Franciszek Piper'. Are you saying it doesn't?
As for me not finding decent material, I'm not the one who admitted to using 'other independent sources' that 'have never been published' - or are you just confused? Anyway, why can't a blog give quotes and sources? Isn't it the material being quoted that is of importance, not whoever is quoting it? You wrote,'Since you seemed so insistent on Dr. Piper's statements, I decided to look up the video that purports to have these statements by him'. Who stated that he said that on video? Not me - I think you're confused again. I had referred to the Rense link where he was quoted, in writing, not on video. Strangely, if he has never said what he was reported to have, he has never refuted it or taken any action. What does that tell you?
Incidentally, David Cole, the revisionist (denier) that you refer to is Jewish. Is he aknuckledragger or is he brave enough to speak out against mainstream belief?
Posted by Jack the Lad, Monday, 31 March 2008 1:39:47 PM
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Brian

I note you had no comment on the downsizing of deaths from 4.1 million to 1.1 million. Confusing? For someone who makes accusations of lying and not coming forth with 'proper' evidence, you suretake the biscuit. But what else can I expect from 'the prisoners' friend'?
Posted by Jack the Lad, Monday, 31 March 2008 1:41:09 PM
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In case you hadn't noticed, your blog links that supposedly quote Dr. Piper, are erroneous. The statements they reportedly quote from Dr. Piper do not exist. I would not expect Dr. Piper to respond to these statements directly, many serious researchers don't because they don't want to lend legitimacy to what is essentially a bunch of nutjobs with a serious political agenda and no interest in real history.

The fact that David Cole issued a retraction in 1998 doesn't impress you either, I'm sure. Just another conspiracy theory to add to the list.

Your deliberate ignorance of the original material is just what I would expect from you. Also, your unwillingness to own the statements you have made when quoting from non-original sources that have taken liberties with what was said on that video comes as no surprise either. Standard practice, when caught out deny everything.

That you keep calling me Brian, I thought was amusing (I still do). I also find it indicative of how your brain works. I guess because I did not immediately deny the name, it has now become fixed in your mind that is what it is in reality. Wrong again, but that if that's what your 'life education' has taught you how to approach reality, then it's hardly surprising either.

You fail. At everything.
Posted by Bugsy, Monday, 31 March 2008 2:01:24 PM
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Bugsy/Brian, you are a waste of my time. You write of my links as erroneous yet you refer to the Anne Frank Organisation (could be a wee bit biased don’t you think?) and your classic 'other independent sources' that 'have never been published' – har de har har. You can't face up to that. How does that compare with your accusation of my ‘unwillingness to own the statements’ I ‘have made when quoting from non-original sources’. People in glass houses etc.

As for ‘deliberate ignorance’, you are guilty of that. When I pointed out that you were wrong when you stated that I had referred to a video of Dr Piper but, instead, a written report to which I provided a link, you changed to another part of the argument. Oh no, you can’t face it when you’re caught out.

Many times I have replied to one of your accusations and you never once had the balls to reply on the same subject.

While you wrote of the revised ‘ death figures for Auschwitz-Birkenau as 1.1 million. That is no small number’, when I pointed out that this was revised down from 4.1 million, you again stuck your head in the sand.

You wrote that I ‘have totally lied about 'reading forensic reports' I actually wrote ‘I have also read that forensic analysis showed that Anne Frank's diaries were partially written in biro. Read that there were reports – didn’t actually read them, thicko.

See http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1602#31092 before you make any more stupid comments.

I could go on in a similar vein, but I think it’s like talking to a brick wall.

What a silly little jibe ‘You fail. At everything’. Were you the kid that took his ball and went home if the other kids didn’t let him win? Maybe if you’d had a ‘life education’ you would be more aware of how childish you can be. That includes your wanky little acronyms.
Posted by Jack the Lad, Tuesday, 1 April 2008 6:15:18 PM
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B/B

Anyway, unless you come up with something worthwhile in a sensible manner, I will just ignore your pap on this thread. I really have better things to do with my time. What you fail to understand is that I haven’t seen convincing proof – if I did, I would have changed my beliefs. On the contrary, no matter what proof against your beliefs you saw, I don’t think you would have the sense to think it over again.
So, in anticipation of your reply, I’m sure that I will be ignoring you. Ta ta, Brian.
Posted by Jack the Lad, Tuesday, 1 April 2008 6:15:53 PM
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Jack - be it a video, a report or otherwise, the link Bugsy provided refutes the claims made in said report.

Essentially, the other points are a side issue to the central issue - the reality of these claims, is that Mr Piper does not indeed make the claims you say he does.

His claims appear to be central to your argument in relation to the holocaust. As curator of this museum, he is the most credible proponent you have put forward.

The removal of him from your claims leaves very little by way of credible evidence.

This is the key issue - not the side points, like matters of whether it's a video or report.

As for the white supremacist comment, in that one, you kind of shoot yourself in the foot.

You say "White Supremacists don't hate everybody, they prefer their own race and believe it to be the highest. It appears that that gets up your nose.""

Does this get up your nose?
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Tuesday, 1 April 2008 6:39:08 PM
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Quite so, TRTL.

Oh dear Jack, is that a crack in the "calm manner, while the defenders of the status quo get all fired up with disparaging comments etc."?
Must be a message there.

Fact: You mentioned Dr. Piper's comments and provided a link that talks about them. I then found the original video by David Cole in which Dr. Piper appears (the one cited by YOUR link!). It turns out neither you nor your source link were correct in what Dr. Piper actually said.

Fact: I never intended to give the impression that I had read unpublished reports on the Anne Frank diary. Perhaps this was not clear. The actual meaning of what I was trying to say is that there were independent reports on that diary (one by NIOD,Netherlands Institute for War documentation), and that the biro written annotations were not published as part of the original text as they do NOT constitute part of the diary, even though they were catalogued by the German Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA)(but not counted as part of the original diary). This determination was independently conducted by the Forensic Institute (in the Netherlands) in the mid-1980's. Photos of these loose annotation sheets are included in NIOD’s publication (see The Diary of Anne Frank: The Revised Critical Edition, 2003, pages 168 and 170).

So, basically you are also admitting that you have never read source material (or reasonable reproductions of source material) and you never watched that video before, and yet you attribute erroneous statements to a man with actual credibility, presumably by reading a white supremacist website.

You deal in rumours and insinuations and most of your ilk just paraphrase and pretend to quote what was written/ videotaped without reference to the truth.

Here's a tip: if you don;t believe something to be true then you should get close as possible to an original source (or reasonable copy thereof)instead of hanging about reading pamphlets and logsites that support your delusion.
Posted by Bugsy, Tuesday, 1 April 2008 7:56:13 PM
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As for the revisions made by Dr. Piper: I accept them. I believe they were made in good faith by a serious researcher interested in the truth. That the 'original' estimate was made in error, I also accept. However, the 4.1 million estimate was provided by the Polish Communist government and not really accepted by many real historians.
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-09.html

TIP: there are actual citations on that link, perhaps you could do some proper research and find out if they are true? I only suggest this, because they put the lie to the "unassailable truth" of the original figure.

Now the real question is: do you accept the revision? Is his number a real number?

1.1 million dead in one location is not a hoax.

If you do not believe the number, the your question loses meaning because you fall victim to a logical fallacy. This is how your argument then looks:
-A was claimed as an unassailable truth
-A was incorrect and was corrected.
Therefore, the correction of A is also likely to be incorrect.

This doesn't look right to me, but then again I've not had the benefit of your expansive education.
Posted by Bugsy, Tuesday, 1 April 2008 8:11:58 PM
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Jack-the-Lad “I have the right to deny the holohoax, you sure get angry when I do so.”

I asked “How would you treat me Jack, as a vociforous opponent of fascism, having 2 Jewish great grandmothers. What could I expect from the political system which you are steadfastly defending by denying that the holocaust happened and which I assume you would like to see running Australia?"

I asked a question which you have avoided answering, simply deflecting onto other things with bombard and bluster.

Btw, I am not angry Jack, simply observing “pig-sticking”.

“I believe in free speech and thought. By your latest post, you clearly don't. You ask what freedoms should be extended to political opponents - same as me; freedom to think and believe what they want, and the freedom to say so.”

Me too. As I said

“Although I politically oppose them, I consider holocaust deniers fully entitled to share the free speech they use to lie about the holocaust.”

I like it when you freely espouse your values. It shows us all what you are. My concern would be what you say in the privacy of your humpy.

“though I haven't stated whether or not Fascism is that particular system. That was just your accusation.”

No it was simply my assumption.

“This subject has proved that a so-called denier can keep going in a calm manner, while the defenders of the status quo get all fired up with disparaging comments etc.”

Hardly, I am conducting an experiment (you may consider yourself the guinea pig).
Posted by Col Rouge, Tuesday, 1 April 2008 8:57:36 PM
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Yeah well... I can't go beyond the most recent comments from TRTL, Bugsy and Col Rouge. In this case, I think Col's masterful sneer is well deployed.

However, I think Steven's advice is best: ignore him, let him blather on and - as Col cogently suggested - allow us to observe the full extent of this sad fellow's delusions. I find Jack fascinating, I suppose since I don't encounter white supremacist, homophobic holocaust deniers very often in real life.

He doesn't need to be encouraged - in fact, he appears to derive some kind of masochistic pleasure in being beaten up intellectually, poor bugger.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 1 April 2008 9:43:10 PM
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Actually, now that I think of it, this thread is starting to resemble the 'Black Knight' scene from Monty Python's 'Holy Grail'. Our Jack is currently sans a few limbs, but is nonetheless thrashing around wildly bellowing taunts at those who are dimembering him:

" Black Knight: Come on, then! (kicks Arthur again)

Arthur: (on the ground) What?!?

Black Knight: (kicking him again) Have at you!

Arthur: (getting up) You are indeed brave, sir knight, but the fight is mine!

Black Knight: Ohhh, had enough, eh?

Arthur: Look, you stupid bastard, you've got no arms left!

Black Knight: Yes I have!

Arthur: LOOK!

Black Knight: Just a flesh wound! (kicking Arthur again)

Arthur: Look, STOP that!

Black Knight: Chicken! Chicken!

Arthur: Look, I'll have your leg!

(The Black Knight continues his kicking)

Arthur: RIGHT! (He chops off the black knight's leg with his sword)

Black Knight: (hopping) Right! I'll do you for that!

Arthur: You'll *WHAT*?

Black Knight: Come 'ere!

Arthur: (tiring of this) What're you going to do, bleed on me?
Black Knight: I'm *INVINCIBLE*!

Arthur: You're a looney....

Black Knight: The Black Knight ALWAYS TRIUMPHS! Have at you!! (hopping around, trying to kick Arthur with his one remaining leg) "

[with numerous exclamation marks from the original script censored by the OLO robot]
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 1 April 2008 9:56:10 PM
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LOL

I must respectfully differ with you Sir CJ.

The more appropriate "Pythonesque" metaphor is the dead parrot.

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6Lq771TVm4
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Tuesday, 1 April 2008 10:28:18 PM
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BTW,

It is my understanding that the dead parrot sketch was inspired by this one also featuring the incomparable Michael Palin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igQ18GIqvc
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Tuesday, 1 April 2008 10:37:39 PM
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Glad to have amused y'all. I think it would be like flogging a dead horse if I carried on with this subject. My beliefs and yours will never be the same.

So, CJ et all I'll bugger off while I still have one leg.

See you some other time some other thread.

Auf Weidersehen
Posted by Jack the Lad, Wednesday, 2 April 2008 1:00:28 PM
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That's about the most honest thing you have ever said Jack.
Posted by Bugsy, Wednesday, 2 April 2008 3:19:55 PM
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Hi Steven - I just KNEW there'd be some level on which we'd connect :)

Thanks for the 'car salesman' vid. I don't remember seeing it before. Hilarious, and I see the resonance with the 'dead parrot' (mind you, I still reckon the 'Black Knight' was more apposite to the erstwhile Jack the Limbless).

I bet you're an afficionado of the fish-slapping dance [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhJQp-q1Y1s ] too, not to mention the silly walk [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wippooDL6WE&feature=related ].

In fact, I think that the fish-slapping dance and the silly walk should be compulsory at school - although probably not in the history syllabus.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 2 April 2008 11:28:00 PM
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Both of those first two Python video's serve as a accurate metaphor for present day service delivery versus what is actually promised, particularly by the telco's!
Posted by Ginx, Thursday, 3 April 2008 12:51:03 PM
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Jack ,
I liked the way he flogged the dead parrot !
KJ .

ps .I suggest you are not on a sure thing with this one !
Posted by kartiya jim, Thursday, 3 April 2008 10:19:53 PM
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