I'm beginning to think that Homer Simpson is the most true representation of how men are seen in society. While at maternity class recently some curious activities took place.

First all the men were asked to hold a weight of 6KG, to represent the weight of the baby their wives were carrying. The assumption being that these poor, hopeless men lacking in any empathy or intelligence or compassion, could not possibly understand women's burden unless patronised in this way.

Next we were asked to represent our normal day's activities pre and post baby on a chart that split the day by hours.
Men and women were given separate bags with separate (quite gender stereotyped) activities to fill up the day/chart with. After setting out our day on the chart with the only activities at our disposal, the men were then reprimanded for not appreciating the burden of work the women were responsible for pre and post baby, and asked to give suggestions on how they could help their wives more. These poor hopeless Homers, if not given this instruction, would presumably have spent their time sleeping in, playing golf and going to the pub, leaving their wives to deal with looking after the child and house?

Now sometimes this phenomena evokes images in me of the feminist lost soldier, fighting in the jungle long after the war is won against my father's generation that was kept at arms length from maternity matters. 'We've still got a long way to go' is their usual catch-cry.

But if you look at Marge and Lisa vs.. Homer and Bart, I think there are a lot of women who identify with this depiction of men. I wonder what the effect it will have for boys and girls being brought up with this image of women as the intelligent, compassionate, virtuous creatures, trying their hardest to help the juvenile, self centred, irresponsible and lazy men they must endure.

In a world where women are brought up being told they can have everything and 'you're worth it', men are constantly told they don't measure up.

"First all the men were asked to hold a weight of 6KG, to represent the weight of the baby their wives were carrying."

This is also a disingenuous exercise. Biomechanically this weight is distributed inside the the midsection where there are muscles and skin surrounding and holding it firm, with cushioning against jostling. An inanimate object strapped to your waist (let alone held in your hands) is a misrepresentation. Maximum weight is also reached only toward the end of the pregnancy.

Just what we needed - another "homerphobic" thread ;)

I agree. A very close male friend of mine who is no longer here, used to get so irate at the depiction of men in TV advertisements. He had a real thing about it!

It left me with food for thought, and a keen eye on what he was picking up.

eg: a man watching his wife loading a dishwasher and slowly and repeatedly saying the brand name. Glod! I hate to use the word, BUT:-how 'stereotypical' is that? The fella looks a complete dimwit!

A wife who rolls her eyes at her silly man who goes out to his garage office while passing a male neighbour with toast in his mouth, tripping over toys to get to his car.

Blokes who go looking for the tampons so that they can spill them on the floor playing mouse with the cat.

There are many that would cause strong complaint by women if THEY were depicted as idiots or lame brained sex objects. (I am equally disgusted at an advert depicting a woman hanging out of the boot of a car..............AND the initial responses seeing that as OK). (See Articles thread: Ban this adv?).

Frankly, stereo-typing is a problem for BOTH sexes.
So I am prepared to see it from the male perspective as well.

Ginx,

I think it's because women make the majority of purchases, and women like to see men portrayed as stupid and inferior to women. The blokes ads for beer and such appeal to men who like to see women as sex objects.

There really are heaps of the anti-men adverts. The advert with the women laughing about the guy with a huge beer belly. Would love to see the reaction if that was the other way around.

And I'm tireless in my rallying against the male speeding adverts that attempt to emasculate men and toy with young men's sexuality and body insecurity. I think it's a particularly hateful advert, from the government no less. There would be a public outcry if these tactics were used to deter women from some anti-social behaviour.

But in some way I suppose men have been consistant in not being bothered by the depiction of women in the media, and not really rallying against the depiction of men recently in media. Women on the other hand, don't seem so consistant. They are up in arms about negative depiction of women in adverts, but pretty quite on the negative male ones.

Yes, that's another particularly nasty one Whitty! I was trying to think of these examples. There are plenty of them!

BUT, I remain of the view that we have to stop doing this with either sex. You are right. I know why the ad. agencies are doing it, but they need a clear message that men and women can be depicted as what they are, it is unnecessary to depict either in these stupid ways.

(Interestingly, I am being taken to task on another thread depicting a women's adv., about my feminist views;- re. attitudes to men! I have referred to your thread. I would add that I fully expect men to see the ad. on that thread for what it is. Unless we can stop this 'battle' we are going to get nowhere. The ad. agencies will continue with their current total lack of imagination).

Well amen to all that :)

MEN.. are strong.. defensive, robust, protective, gallant, hard working.

WOMEN are sweet.. gentle, caring, soft, wonderful, feminine.. hard working and supportive.

TOGETHER they make a great team, sharing, and living the one-ness that marraige brings to 2 people.

Does it get any better than that ?

Who could imagine if we were both the same.... 2 Homers.. 2 Marges..

The Ads which denigrate either gender are out for the money.. they just sniff bucks in it.. so they go for it.

GINXY..I see you calmed down from the 'other' thread.. you can be quite human when you try.. onya.

"In a world where women are brought up being told they can have everything and 'you're worth it', men are constantly told they don't measure up."

Darn it I must have missed that bit of feminist drivel.
Probably because I was checking out the chicks and not paying attention to some bint who had an overdeveloped sense of self importance inheritted from hearing someone say she was "worth it" and could have "everything" (forgetting to say it depended on grabbing a man to pay for it all).

As for Homer. Men have a tradition of self-effacement and deprication. It forms the bedrock of male humour. Men are expected to take a joke and be the butt of it.

I would far sooner see men depicted as a Homer Simpson than Will in "Will and Grace", all good looks, suave smiles and sensitivity (but mainly because he is a faggot).

Actually, one of the easiest ways of finding ones way into a ladies "affections" is to pretend to be dealing with issues of confusion over possibly being gay. Sure enough most gals will willingly sacrifice their "honour" to help a poor confused fella out (and the ones I am talking about look alot better than a Marg Simpson) - and they think we are dullards!

Col Rouge ~ "Actually, one of the easiest ways of finding ones way into a ladies "affections" is to pretend to be dealing with issues of confusion over possibly being gay."

Oh please, who's gonna pretend they're gay for a chick just to get into their "pants"?. You watch too many movies dude. You're better looking at their face than their tits...it's a good start.

So long as you know who you are and what you're about who cares what some stereotype some woman in some class is about?. It's no different to what females cop with advertising and their own apparent competitiveness with eachother

Perhaps Col's approach to the "ladies" is his own form of 'homer-eroticism'?

LOL Sharp as a tack CJ.

StG - so, it did not work for you. Don't presume we are all as inept.

CJ is always good with the one-liner,

It is only when he tries to string more than 10 words together that he exceeds capacity.

Whitty, I more or less concur, though I emphatically disagree about the speeding advert.

Whilst I totally agree it's unfair to stereotype men as hoons, the fact of the matter is, the crash statistics show that young male drivers are more likely to drive recklessly.

The second fact of the matter is that this particular demographic is more likely to react to the 'pinkie finger' emasculation effect.

I agree that advertisements designed to emasculate aren't an ideal solution, but these ones appear to have had an effect. If it is indeed reducing speeding deaths, then I definitely think it's worth it - if it's saving lives, young male lives no less.

Besides, I think men who do hooning like that deserve to be ridiculed. Obviously it has no relation to penis size, but when I see a bloke speed off from traffic lights like that, I do assume he's a bit of a d!ckhead. If these advertisements are criticising these blokes who put themselves and others at risk, well hell, I've got no sympathy for them if they're feeling emasculated.

"StG - so, it did not work for you. Don't presume we are all as inept.

CJ is always good with the one-liner,

It is only when he tries to string more than 10 words together that he exceeds capacity.

Posted by Col Rouge"

Oh wow, venom. Lighten up big guy. Ya might wanna double check if ya took your 'vitamins' this morning.

StG "Oh wow, venom. Lighten up big guy. Ya might wanna double check if ya took your 'vitamins' this morning."

oh I am cool, just peeing on the peones.

TurnRightThenLeft,

I just don't think the ends justifies the means, and I'm damn sure the government wouldn't dare to do it to women. It basically says if a man has a small penis, he should be more ashamed than a guy who put's peoples lives at risk on the road.

It's also impossible to argue against without exposing yourself to ridicule, as it has occurred to me most people will just assume one is very personally affected;-) I just think young males especially are hated by society, and messing with their heads and self image just increases the anger inside them and does no good.

StG,

Actually I agree with Col, but not in the literal sense of his agrument. I think Metrosexual's came about originally by a few guys being successful by dressing closer to how gay guys are more likely to dress. Some women found them possibly less threatening until their true sexuality was revealed, and then after they got more respect for defying masculine peer pressure. A critical mass was formed and men's dress was opened up to more possibilities.

Whitty: "I just think young males especially are hated by society"

What evidence do you have for this extraordinary claim? I could argue with greater validity and plenty of evidence that young males especially are glorified by society - think of the apotheosis of young men in sport, entertainment and the military, for example.

That society hates what a small minority of young ratbags do is quite reasonable - like hooning around in cars, for example. I personally quite like the ads that offend you so. In fact, I have deployed the pinky to great advantage in the country town where I live since the ads appeared - far more effective than the alternative digital response, and without the implied challenge to their apparently frail egos.

StG - don't worry, I'm well used to poor old Col's waspishness. He's far more of a Victor Meldrew than a Homer Simpson anyway, although the thought of old Victor feigning confusion over his sexuality is a tad disturbing...

Whitty,

While this doesn't address your larger concerns, can I suggest you put your specific complaints about the maternity class in writing to the birthing centre/hospital/whatever it the place calls itself.

Any organisation is required to take feedback seriously. Your comments really could made a difference to the next guy

Col ~ "oh I am cool, just peeing on the peones."

No you didn't, Mr Elitist. 'Peones' being the *hit kickers, eh?. You had a hissy when someone had a giggle that actually really wasn't directed at you. It was more directed at the topic, at your expense. It's called humour. Google it.

Whitty. I don't believe Metro....gag....sexu....gag....ality had/has sod all to do with its origins being even remotely related homosexuals, their nice duds and a coupla fella's originally using that as an effective predatory technique in scoring roots.

Quote you;

"I think Metrosexual's came about originally by a few guys being successful by dressing closer to how gay guys are more likely to dress. Some women found them possibly less threatening until their true sexuality was revealed..."

Was that before GBH was discovered?.

Seriously though, Metro's (IMO) are than likely the male counterpart of the corporate single female with designer undies and truckloads of money. Ya gonna HAVE to scrub up to keep up with that.

Evidence;

http://men.style.com/gq

StG,

I meant less threatening in the sense the females were happier to converse and such without being defensive and expecting to be propositioned. i.e. The guy is probably gay, so I can have an innocent chat to him with no pressure of any courtship rituals until I feel a bit more comfortable in his company, after which she finds out he might not be gay after all.

Co. Rouge -

Good grief! How old are you? Your "technique" sounds like the plot-line from one of those terrible 60's movies.

Here's another tip: - if you find someone you consider beddable ask her if she feels the same way. If she does you're both happy. If she doesn't then you can stop wasting time for both of you and move on to the next lucky "gal". No muss, no fuss. No b.s.

StG “No you didn't, Mr Elitist. . . . You had a hissy”

No hissy here.

You are just trying to punch above your weight class.

Romany “if you find someone you consider beddable ask her if she feels the same way. If she does you're both happy. If she doesn't then you can stop wasting time for both of you and move on to the next lucky "gal". No muss, no fuss. No b.s.”

Sound advise Romany.

However, since I took up internet dating, I have not bothered to ask anyone. I simply filtered the incoming invitations and relied on those who thought of me as “beddable”, to considerable effect.

That way I was sure of not wasting my time.

As for technique

if it ain’t broken, why replace it?

Stg “Was that before GBH was discovered?.”

I am not sure how you got to bed anyone but whilst “GBH” might have worked for you and the Kray twins, the desperados these days rely on “GHB”.

I thought a Metrosexual was someone who had done it on public transport (in which case there must be alot of them to explain why it smells so bad).

Whitty:

"I just don't think the ends justifies the means, and I'm damn sure the government wouldn't dare to do it to women. It basically says if a man has a small penis, he should be more ashamed than a guy who put's peoples lives at risk on the road."

The advert has been heralded as quite a success - evidently, it is having an effect on young men.

That effect, includes reduced speeding deaths.

Doesn't saving lives trump issues of insecurity?

I agree with the part about women however, but overall, I see this advert as targeting hoons, not young men.

Young men who don't behave like hoons obviously have no need to feel offended. As for the hoons, to hell with them. If they feel emasculated, well, poor diddums. I don't give a damn. If they're really the tough men they think they are, they'll just shrug it off anyway.

As for young males being hated by society, quite frankly, I think that regardless of any perception, as a demographic, young males are blessed and have it the best of anyone.

TurnRightThenLeft,

So you are happy to reinforce the perception that these 'hoons' have? If they are being hoons because they are insecure in their masculinity, the adverts are validating and more so reinforcing the reason for their bad behaviour.

If a 'hoon' is being a hoon because he has a small dick, and wants to prove his masculinity, you are saying to him, yes your masculinity is determined by the size of your dick, but being a hoon doesn't fool us you have an adequate appendage. The hoon then goes on to find another way to prove his masculinity.

Wouldn't it be better to teach young guys that their masculinity isn't dependent on the size of his dick in the first place

Frankly, if they're hoons who speed off from traffic lights, they're unlikely to be take much note of carefully calibrated, politically correct gender commentary.

If they're speeding and the message "hey, ya tool, people who speed have small dicks. You speed?" makes them stop speeding and risking the lives of others, then yep. I'm quite okay with it.

It's a shame about the penis-size and self-worth issue, I guess, but very few safety messages actually cut through to this demographic.

Other messages aren't cutting through - this one has. If it stops speeding, then yes. I'd rather they were alive than insecure, even if they are a hoon.

As for the overall issues of insecurity, frankly, I don't like the idea of people modulating messages such as this for fear of offending men.

I tend to think men can hack it and I don't place much of a premium on getting worked up over this compared to other issues.

It's saving lives. Some men may feel threatened. Tough. It may sound like the typical non-PC macho response, but all I can say, is get over it.

If they feel the need to prove their masculinity, they can do it by showing that they're not hoons, but they don't let trivial things like TV ads bother them.

Col Rouge,

"Actually, one of the easiest ways of finding ones way into a ladies "affections" is to pretend to be dealing with issues of confusion over possibly being gay."

This belongs in the same basket with men who believe that a lesbian just needs a good
lay - and that they'd be the right person to do it.

TRTL,

'As for the overall issues of insecurity, frankly, I don't like the idea of people modulating messages such as this for fear of offending men.'

Seems to cut it for anything offensive to women.

Is it really saving lives? How do they calculate this? I'm not being smart, I just wonder how you can prove causation. What if the hoons turn to domestic violence rather than speeding as a result of these magnified identity problems?

I can understand your argument, and understand when I'm being called a nancy boy wuss. I just prefer to live in a society where the government doesn't encourage sexually degrading gestures. I'd also prefer men be ostracised for breaking the law, not breaking the law as a man.

I wouldn't have said nancy boy wuss... if that were the case, then you wouldn't be so vehement in your responses.

Andrew Bolt talks plenty of drivel, but I give him credit for having convictions. Judging from his responses to comments he supports the ads, but it's in a roundabout fashion.

Here: "And how well it’s worked. If the RTA research is to be believed, more than 60 per cent of young male drivers surveyed said the campaign made them think of driving less like a hoon."

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_how_low_can_you_go/

If it is working - then it's insulting hoons and making them think twice. If it's not, then men aren't paying it any attention.
Either way the argument still stands.

I do concur with the fact that there would be an outcry if a similar thing occurred for women.
That being said, I probably wouldn't have issues if there were an ad that used some flat-chested insult, provided it was a proven success at saving their lives - speeding, or perhaps something like breast cancer. Though it'd be a bit less worthy than this speeding campaign, as breast cancer isn't risking other people's lives through stupidity as well.

Problem is, most women at risk of say, breast cancer, aren't the young hoons who ignore most messages about their safety, so they wouldn't have to resort to such an ad campaign. This kind of thing should be the last resort, in the same manner as those graphic images of accidents are.

You're right in that a campaign like this focusing on women's body issues probably wouldn't be accepted however.

Wow Col, you bite and scratch like a wounded pussy.

Loving the personal attacks by the way, shows real class

While we're on the topic of Col, "Probably because I was checking out the chicks" has become the new catchphrase in our house whenever you didn't do something you were supposed to do. E.g.

"Why didn't you water the garden this morning?"
"Probably because I was too busy checking out the chicks!"

I honestly laughed more at Col's post of 14 March 2008 10:35:14 PM than I have ever laughed at an OLO post *ever*. Champagne comedy.

Vanilla "I honestly laughed more at Col's post of 14 March 2008 10:35:14 PM than I have ever laughed at an OLO post *ever*. Champagne comedy."

Good for you, You ladies like a laugh as much as us men.

I hate to think anyone would actually take it too seriously and experience has shown me.

Any man who does take himself too seriously will only attract them gals who see themselves as "doormats" and they are not who I choose to spend my time with.

Well, that's the excellent thing about you, Col - you can take it on the chin.

Meanwhile, CJ's question to Whitty got lost in the melee.

"What evidence do you have for this extraordinary claim? [That young males especially are hated by society.] I could argue with greater validity and plenty of evidence that young males especially are glorified by society - think of the apotheosis of young men in sport, entertainment and the military, for example."

I'm interested in your response Whitty - or others.

Seems there’s a bit of Homer in the best of us. He makes the ladies laugh and is never a threat to feminism - he would be amongst the first to turn lesbian in a feminist dominated world.

Homer on feminism: "If the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girls sports, such as hot oil wrestling, foxy boxing, and such and such."

I can't even cut and paste this without laughing so much I actually start crying. How can you pack so much funny into one sentence?

Homer: There's your giraffe, little girl.
Ralph Wiggum: I'm a boy.
Homer: That's the spirit. Never give up.

Marge: Homer, is this how you pictured married life?
Homer: Yeah, pretty much, except we drove around in a van solving mysteries.

Marge: This is the worst thing you've ever done.
Homer: You say that so often that it lost its meaning.

Homer: Okay Marge, its your child against my child. The winner will be showered with praise. The loser will be taunted and booed until my throat is sore.

Marge: I think you should do it, Homer, you might learn something new!
Homer: Oh, Marge, whenever I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out. Remember that time I went to those duff brewery classes and I forgot how to drive?

Homer: [drunk] Look, the thing about my family is there's five of us. Marge, Bart, Girl Bart, the one who doesn't talk, and the fat guy. How I loathe him.

Homer: Fame was like a drug, but what was even more like a drug were the drugs.

Homer: Aw, twenty dollars! I wanted a peanut!
Homer's Brain: Twenty dollars can buy many peanuts!
Homer: Explain how!
Homer's Brain: Money can be exchanged for goods and services!
Homer: Woo-hoo!

I have to confess that I find the Simpsons hilarious, and have done so since they first lightened our TV screens a long, long time ago for a TV series. So do my kids.

However, neither their mother nor my partner finds them very amusing at all. I've often wondered why :S

And where does that put Whitty's point?

I think I have given off the wrong impression in my post. I don't have anything against Homer or the Simpsons. It makes a lot of social commentary I find really amusing. I think the existence of Homer character is in a large part due to feminist objection to men. He embodies everything men are admonished about by women. He is the rebel in a PC world.

I remember a duff beer ad where they squirted some angry protesting feminists with beer, and they stripped off into bikinis and started dancing.

Some have got the impression that I think The Simpsons causes the attitudes, or have even come to the conclusion I'm advocating censorship. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I am interested in whether feminists who call for bans on negative depictions of women are consistent when it comes to negative depictions of men though. I remember reading 'Politically Correct Bedtime Stories', and while meant to be funny and succeeding, I think it really exposed the stupidity of a lot of left winger feminists in the education department.

I think really The Simpsons illustrate the reality of how men and women are seen. As I said in my opening line 'I'm beginning to think that Homer Simpson is the most true representation of how men are seen in society. '

The Simpsons - absolutely hillarious - is a very clever social satire.

Every character is a satirically drawn ...

And ... A nuclear plant - and built in the centre of town!

The Simpsons is a social satire, and very cleverly exposed.

To read into this series anying more, or less, is not to do the scriptwriters justice.