Schmalz is a Yiddish word. The literal meaning is "fat." Metaphorically it is untranslatable. The closest I can come is "Icky sentimentality."

Sorry day sets the benchmark for schmalz. It is also shrewd political theatre. For the most part Rudd cannot give the latte left what it wants. So he makes a great fanfare of giving them what he can while conducting a conservative economic policy and a foreign policy that is largely indistinguishable from Howard's.

The Romans governed through "bread and circuses" and sorry day is the circus part of the equation.

Maybe this outpouring of schmalz was necessary.

BUT, will the Rudd initiative improve the welfare of Aborigines?

Colour me sceptical. My guess is that a decade hence we shall still be discussing the dreadful state of Aboriginal society.

Here's why.

I doubt the viability of remote Aboriginal communities. It may be that salvation for many, not all, Aborigines lies in moving to cities as have many Australians. The jobs, the opportunities, are mainly in the cities.

Who is going to tell Aborigines that?

If the remote communities are to become viable the locals are going to have to display considerably more entrepreneurship than they have shown hitherto. They are also going to have to go out and sell their communities to business as investment destinations.

Can anyone visualise this happening anytime soon?

I have no magic bullets. But here are some guidelines that may help.

--Whites need to toss their guilt on the trash heap. Feeling guilty never helped anyone.

--Whites also need to view Aborigines as human beings, not as a way for liberal whites to feel good and self-righteous.

--Everybody needs to recognise that ultimately Aborigines need to help themselves. The most Whites can do is act as facilitators.

DISCLAIMER

The views I express are mine and mine alone. Despite having used a Yiddish word I do not speak for the Jewish community. Most of my fellow Jews are taken in by the schmalz.

"I have no magic bullets. But here are some guidelines that may help.

--Whites need to toss their guilt on the trash heap. Feeling guilty never helped anyone.

--Whites also need to view Aborigines as human beings, not as a way for liberal whites to feel good and self-righteous.

--Everybody needs to recognize that ultimately Aborigines need to help themselves. The most Whites can do is act as facilitators." (Quote:stevenlmeyer)

Thank-you for your guidelines. I only have one:

'Whites'/'Aborigines'= Australians.

WE are all Australians. Think divisively; and you will maintain division.

As you say: no magic bullets/no magic results. The us/them attitude if nothing else will take eons to dispel if ever..?

Sadly there are still many in Australia who will be happy to see nothing change; if only to prove their point. Very sad.

"--Whites also need to view Aborigines as human beings, not as a way for liberal whites to feel good and self-righteous."

...........is it so impossible for you to accept that it IS possible to see 'Aborigines as human beings'?? To NOT view them as just a way to 'feel good and self-righteous'??

Even sadder SM; that you have such a low opinion of indigenous Australians that you cannot embrace the view that people do indeed view them as...'human beings'. Such a telling comment, and from a Jew, I think a bloody tragedy.

Ginx wrote,

"Even sadder SM; that you have such a low opinion of indigenous Australians that you cannot embrace the view that people do indeed view them as...'human beings'. Such a telling comment, and from a Jew, I think a bloody tragedy."

I think you are misreading what I wrote.

I have no difficulty viewing a human being as a human being.

BUT

I do think many White Australians have difficulty viewing Aborigines as human beings.

That is a comment about White Australia, NOT about Aborigines.

I think that, in the consciousness of many White Australians, Aborigines have become ideological footballs rather than actual people.

You wrote:

'Whites'/'Aborigines'= Australians.

I actually AGREE with that sentiment. It's not me, but "liberal" Whites you need to convince.

Yes, I did notice your reference to the 'latte Left'.

I suppose if you feel the need to categories in this manner, I must confess my 'sins'. I like my latte..with full cream milk thanks; proper latte. And I am most certainly on the so-called Left (do Conservatives get stoned if they are caught drinking latté?).

Is it so incomprehensible to you that I AND so many others, do not see Aborigines as a cause rather than a life form? Is it so incomprehensible to you that there are some Conservatives who feel the same way?

Are you so hell bent on projecting those on the so-called Right of politics as having the kind of views you espouse?

_____________________________

Aborigines WERE treated shockingly.
Their children WERE stolen from them in MOST cases.(Whether the intention were good or not).
They WERE shackled; NOT like animals.
They WERE studied as specimens NOT human beings.
Bones WERE stolen, and in MANY cases, have not been returned.
They WERE murdered en mass. GENOCIDE.

You know, I'll be a pragmatist here; given all that, I don't give a t'penny h'penny damn whether they are looked on as a cause or not.

If Aborigines have learned to screw the 'white man' it is because the white man screwed them.

I remain absolutely disgusted at the petty-minded point scoring on this forum regarding the apology.

Shalom Steven,

I thought you'd made a typo when I first saw "schmalz." He's left out the "t," I thought. But then I remembered there are two spellings of the word. I'm used to "smaltz," - meaning exaggerated sentimentalism, as in music or soap operas. Or fat or grease, esp. of a chicken. It comes from Yiddish - 'smelt,' orig. meaning was grease, butter.

What can the Government do - now that 'sorry' is out of the way for
Australia's indigenous people?

I'm sure the PM has an agenda. But I would ask him to invest in the
children...

One of my suggestions to the PM - would be -to provide access to the same sporting facilities and opportunities in the outback areas that are available to whites.

Professor Colin Tatz, (formerly Professor of politics at Sydney's Macquarie University, where he established one of only three academic
centres in the world devoted to genocide studies) told us in , "Obstacle Race," of the 1,200 black sportsmen and women he studied, only six had access to the same facilities and opportunities as whites.

His book is a moving testament to the endeavours of the first Australians to live up to the sports-obsessed culture of the majority.

He describes the dustbowls, the fields of mud and salt and strewn rock where black Australian athletes have trained and played, and won through, often against all odds of their fragile health.

On the salt pan at Lombadina, Aborigines play with two saplings stuck in the ground. If you inspected their conditions, you would be looking at third - and fourth world sporting facilites. You would see Aborigines kicking a piece of leather stuffed with paper because they don't possess a single football or have access to the kind of sports facilities that every white Australian takes for granted, even in poor working-class suburbs there is a municipal pool, a municipal ground, a cricket pitch or a tennis court or a park of some sort - these things are totally absent in 95% of Aboriginal communities.

Steve,
I think that in the longer term education of the kids is the key. By some means or another the parents have to see the kids get to school each and every day. How can uneducated people cope in a modern world?

But at the same time we cannot sit back and let the neglect and abuse of kids go on. Our Governments must insist on proper care and safety for the kids. How this can be acheived I am not sure. Maybe by NT type intervention, but this seemed to split the aboriginal communities down the middle. No one has come up with an alternative scheme thus far.

Am anxious to see the results from the NT thus far. If it doesn't work we had better think up something else.

Schmaltz is is Pig fat & actually very tasty on sweet & sour Rye bread with Carraway seed & paprika & Salt sprinkled over it.
Schmaltz is widely used in many german dialects to describe something really corny or overly patronising or just plain ignorant. Some of Kevin Rudd's comments re the appology weren't schmaltz. They were over & understated & purely academic paternalistic. He obviously meant well, but we all know that just meaning well is simply not good enough & in this case doing well is not appreciated either. Rudd would be well advised to invite Nelson for a beer & discuss reality.

I am going to be completely naive here - so hope those OLO accept my comments in the manner in which I give them.

We constantly hear the deplorable situation of child sexual abuse and petrol-sniffing. This is the tragic loss of yet ANOTHER generation. No sugar coating and poli-speak from governments is going to change this.

Why can't the perpetrators of child abuse be removed from the communities? The women, and the men not involved with child abuse, would feel safer and empowered to bring up these children.

Indigenous leaders are outspoken about such abuse. Undoubtedly, there are many, many indigenous people who support them. Could not these people establish groups within the communities to monitor this? Whatever the motives of whites in the past, the results must be a reserve at best, a suspicion at worst, of white involvement.

Reports implicate whites also involved in this child-abuse coming in from mining regions. Arresting them would be a good start.

Some years ago, I spoke with a group of indigenous women. I am not a social worker or such. It was just one women (me) informally chatting with other women - just as women do. No specifics were mentioned, such as petrol sniffing. They openly discussed the problems as they saw it. They stated that their menfolk had been emasculated by white paternalism ... and, thus, the men felt impotent in every part of their lives. Their important roles in their communities had been removed.

I would tender my own view that this would be a root-cause of many of the problems seen now.

I agree education is of vital importance. Education could also include what is significant to indigenous people. Teaching both local languages and English in schools is hardly unique. This occurs overseas, where both lingua franca and English are taught together. Indigenous culture could so easily be included in the curriculum without any detriment to these children progressing onto tertiary study.

Individual,

I dislike German food - also English ...

Sauerkraut is all right in small does - especially if taken to ward off scurvy.

When I last had a meat pie in England, the top crust, so full of lard, stuck to the roof of my mouth and I had to lever it off with a fork ... Try doing this in public with any dignity ...

When French and Italian chefs were being acclaimed, it is highly significant that the only English cook to gain recognition and renown for his cooking, was Sweeney Todd ...

Of course, we are not going as far back as the food of 17th century elite classes; and
relatively modern English cooks of note, are influenced by European food styles.

I think that Rudd must found Bob-no child in poverty-Hawke’s old hookrah.
He obviously lit it up, and had a puff or two before making his speeches
the other day.

It's positive to have dreams and Rudd must get marks for trying to nurture
a bipartisan approach to the problem but I, like Steve, remain dubious.

Some of the biggest long-term obstacles may come from his own ranks.
A mighty lot people on the left side of the politics enjoy playing the blame
game (note the reaction to Nelsons speech the other day)
-tell us all current woes result from the ‘stolen gen’ –we’ll listen.
-tell us more money is needed-we’re all ears .
But, tell us anything about mutual responsibility or squandered resources-we don’t want to hear– “its offensive”

Agree with Steve that remoteness of settlements is responsible for a lot of the underdevelopment .

But even moving to the city will not solve the problem , witness Redfern, Sydney &
the woes of some of its residents. And you don't need great gaps to have a vicious us v them mentality. Especially when you have the left telling everyone that – unless things
come out equal –-there has just got to have been discrimination & injustice – And its all whites fault!

A little amused by Foxy’s 'academic' authority
and his talk of "EVER WHITE " having access to pools etc.
This may be true of the cities. But many remote white settlements are equally denude
of facilities & opportunities.

And, as for talk of " kicking a leather ball stuffed with paper" as a peculiar
Aboriginal habit (LOL) …well, it is something I can relate to also - and not too long ago!
Foxy's ‘academic’ clearly has the right mindset to head a 'genocide study"

Danielle

You make some good points. The effects of disempowerment are not unique to Aborigines and you only have to refer to examples such as the Irish situation or the native American indian for similar comparisons.

It would have been less devastating if we had involved Indigenous people in the establishment and development of Australia which may have aided in providing a sense of self worth and ownership. But we can all be wise in hindsight.

Hopefully the Apology will go some way in building a bridge for Reconciliation and while a 'sorry' does not solve the immediate problems it is a positive and symbolic gesture that might open the way for some new beginnings. Improvements will only be gained with the full cooperation of Indigenous people and uniquely tailored programs for each situation. The one-fits-all approach won't work as Aboriginal people are as diverse in culture as the European.

I agree that it would be better to remove the perpetrators rather than the victims to allow communities to operate and prosper without the hindrance of destructive behaviours. If only it were that easy.

Dear Horus,

Please get it right... I'm female - not male - so do me the courtesy to stop referring to me as "he" all the time.

It's also inappropriate to suggest that I'm qualified to head some sort of study on "genocide..." when there have obviously already been studies done on that subject by qualified people.
Studies to which I have referred in my previous posts.

And by the way as Malcolm Fraser pointed out - "There is a great push to have more and more Aboriginal athletes, because it will be wonderful to say in the Olympics year, 'Look, we have half-a-dozen Aborigines in our briefcases' which shows that Australia makes no racial distinctions and everybody lives happily in a land of equal opportunity.' But the Aborigines who represent Australia in the Olympics had to show three times as much talent in order to rate an equal place with whites. Cathy Freeman is the greatest thing that ever happened to white Australia because this happy, delightful, fun-loving young lady looks as though she is the representative of all black womanhood, and she is not; she is an aberration."

Education is the key to changing life-styles. It should start with
the children - as I've also said in previous posts - it may be too late for some of the adults - but it isn't for their children and grandchildren. And - the provision of sporting facilities was only one suggestion.

If you can offer better solutions Horus - by all means let's hear them.

Danielle,
i couldn't agree more that education i.e. insight is the only way forward. THE BIG PROBLEM is the education system as we have known it for the past 30 or so years. Teachers don't teach, they merely repeat something somebody else told them. everyone's getting educated but no-one learns anything. education for education's sake is what we have, not teaching & learning & more importantly comprehending. From my own observations, indigenous & practical people are not being listened too. We always hear of academic EXPERTS dreaming up some non-sensical, dribbling idea which is forced onto everyone. Then, as always, when it fails at great all round cost we get "Necessary Changes" which is still all run by the same bureaucrats as the previous failed scheme. Academics out of politics say I, you're just perpetuating incompetence & waste. Let real people run the show.

Individual,

I agree with what you say - there is much talk about the changes that are necessary in Education, but the views of those most concerned - the parents and the kids - are not being taken seriously.

A more holistic approach, one that involved parents and the community, is not unreasonable, nor would it entail the huge wads of money used by experts, committees, task forces etc. If elders and parents both in purely aboriginal and in all school communities, could be involved in the education process it would both raise self-esteem, make parents a part of the process and enrich the system.

Its a drum I've been beating for a long time so probably many know what I'm on about. And yep. Childless academics whose solutions depend on theoretical paradigms should not be given free reign to change the system.

Individual, I agree with you. On reading my grandchild's school report, I found three spelling mistakes from her teacher.

I am going to be the devil's advocate here. I see remote areas as a possible plus.

Last year I visited an area where there had been a community of 3,000 people living there
since time "immemorial" - their laws had been sophisticated. Males after reaching a certain age were not permitted to eat certain food stuffs. These were available only for children, pregnant and nursing mothers, and the elderly; other such laws had been practiced. Over the last hundred years, these people had "dwindled" to a handful - these survivors had been sent to Port Macquarie. The white population of township, on the place where these people had lived, is about 450 - it appears that this is the only number that can be sustained!

Cattle stations in remote areas are not disadvantaged, except for medical access.

An archaeologist friend employed indigenous people on a dig in Victoria. They were extremely enthusiastic. This research unearthed evidence that their forebears living there had a implemented a complicated system of fish farms. After a particularly hard day, she purchased beer from local pub (where the archaeological project was known) for their camp. On unpacking the carton she was appalled to see that it had been filled with selections of the most expensive brands available. Her assistants told her that this was normal practice whenever indigenous people purchased beer. In another area, the white shopkeeper "held" govenment payments against which indigenous people purchased their necessities. Again, they were being exploited.

cont ...

I am not saying that this is typical of the white community. Unfortunately, there are always those who will take advantage of a situation; like white miners entering communities for sex, even with underage girls. These people are parasites - and they contribute enormously to problems. If I were in such a community experiencing this, then had white "paternalists" trying to direct my "existence", I would be "bloody pissed off" too.

A truism: "If you can't help, then you are part of the problem".

Remove those committing child abuse; and other factors seen by the communities, themselves, as contributing problems. Then ask these communities how we can help. I guarantee that they will want the best for their children - education, etc

Mr Rudd's apology is a joke while he and others fail to deal with the abuse (in the name of culture) today. The article by Lara Wieland who worked as a doctor at Cape York says it all. She writes in todays Australian
'I have been frustrated to the point of pain at times over the unwillingness in these communities to face the problems and a tendency to smack down those who try. I could not fathom the possibility that so many people in a community would "not care" about their children. The dysfunction has become so deep that many people do not even realise the damage that is being done to their young people.

They hardly bat an eyelid at events that would make your stomach churn. A young mother in a drunken state beats her young child with a stick and screams that she is going to kill him. The next day, that same mother, sober, hugs her child and does not even think about the lasting emotional scars. Why would she when her mother did the same to her, and her neighbours do the same, and no one has ever told her that it is wrong?

Children who have had sexually transmitted diseases and have been raped and molested are now parents. No one ever helped them or told them that what happened to them was wrong or not normal. Today's teenage parents grew up in homes with hardly any furniture or toilet paper or soap or toothpaste.

They don't know what it means to make your child wash with soap in the shower or brush their teeth at night. They eat meals that materialise - if they're lucky - occasionally around pay day.'

Our bigger failure is not to save these kids.

Dear Foxy,
My “he” was referring to your star witness –let me quote you:
“Professor Colin Tatz, (formerly Professor of politics at Sydney's Macquarie University, where he established one of only three academic centres in the world devoted to genocide studies)”

And as for “If you can offer better solutions”:
Your initial post seemed to be about 90% hit whitey, and 10% “offer(ing) better solutions “.(Nothing personal –perhaps it was just my skewed reading!)

As I said before, I have serious doubts that classifications like black/white /Aboriginal are constructive – all we need is one – ‘Australians’ .
And one of the biggest obstacles to improving the lot of some Australians on the lowest rungs whether black, white or brindle, are often intermediaries who seek to exploit differences for ideological or personal-career advantage.

Romany & Daneille above, are coming up with some sensible suggestions –have a read.

And have a nice day –catch you next time.
Cheers!

The problem with aborigines and their children is not very easy for many reasons. We, (non aborigines people) have destroyed aborigines' hopes, dreams, integrity, self esteem. We convert them from proud creative happy humans to bodies without soul. Can any one tell me what kind of dreams they could have? We took their land that's finished. their only choice is to become the lasts from the last. It is a joke if anyone think their discrimination, victimization and humiliation could stop from one day to an other. It will take many years until we (non aborigines people) learn to respect them. They are not idiots and of cause they could not trust us as they have so bad experiences from us.
The children of aborigines leave in a family environment very negative plus their general environment schools, roads, etc are very bad comparing with the general environment from the other Australian children.
How can these children compete with the other children? What probability they have to be winers?
We know that the battle for a better future for aborigines will not be easy and we know it will take some time, 2-3 generations. We have no choice, government, community and aborigines must start the big journey for a better future for aborigines, we own it to them, they deserve it.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Horus,

Professor Colin Tatz is actually now retired. So he doesn't have a career 'advantage' that he's pushing. And it wasn't about 'hit whitey,'at all. It was simply the results of his research.

Tatz, a South African political refugee, found in Australia echos of his own country. "People say to me," he said, "Surely South Africa was an example of dreadful, maniacal, premeditated racism where Australia was really a case of innocent ignorance. The truth is there is a tremenduous similarity, both in idealogy and notions of scientific racial theories: for example, the fuller the blood, the more primitive, the lighter the skin colour, the more salvageable.
The reserves, the exploitative labour, the sexual exploitation of women, the separate health system, the separate education, the ban on interracial marriage - all are the same."

Yes, I agree with you. It is time that we became one Australia - and now it may be possible with a PM - who has shown the right moral leadership and with these words, "...A future where all Australians, whatever their origins, are truly equal partners, with equal opportunities and with an equal stake in shaping the next chapter in the history of this great country, Australia!"

Cheers.

Steve,
runner mentioned an article written by Dr. Lara Wieland, called 'Break the cycle of disfunction' in todays 'The Australian'.

I think everyone who posts or reads OLO should read it. Also another article in same paper called 'Sorry to spoil the party' which is written about a speech Mal Brough made last week. They are currently on the main page until sunday evening, I think.

If what is stated is anything like the truth of the current situation, then one will realise the seriousness and the urgency of the task to give the kids any chance of a decent life.

It will be a massive job to give any sort of a credible result. I just hope the Government does not simply fiddle around the edges.

It is time that we became one Australia
Foxy,
It's not only time, it's well overdue thanks to many leftist agenda pushing & democracy hypocrite egotist Academics. Several attempts of uniting Australia have been sabotaged by the afore mentioned. I remember when 20 years ago a disgraced liberal was relied upon by Labor as an advisor. I have personally asked a previous Deputy Labor Premier on how his Government obtains the information in order to make policy in my particular electorate & he replied "Oh, we're in constant touch with (the disgraced liberal) & he provides us with all the facts we need". He then turned away & showed more interest in mating dogs. Several communities were on the verge of forming one Council & this particular former parliamentarian split up the communities, thus spoiling the Council formation. 20 years on & a Labor Government is pushing Council amalgamation.
I also know of quite a number of indigenous of high standing but questionable morals simply because useless bureaucrats, in order to gain immunity, encouraged them to go past the point of no return. Egotist power mongers will thwart any & effort for unity because it is a serious threat to their immoral practises, especially in remote communities.

Runner, Banjo,

Yes I read Lara Wieland's piece in the Australian and I agree. It is an invaluable reality check.

Here's a link to the article:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23222116-5013172,00.html

What can we do?

For a start we can impeach Judge Sarah Bradley.

See:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23216629-2702,00.html

A judge who allows gang rapists to go free.

A judge who gives credence to the idea that getting an 11 year old to suck your penis MAY be inducting the child into "men's business!"

Note that "men's business" has NO STANDING IN LAW. If you get an 11 year old to suck your penis you are guilty of statutory rape not to mention child abuse.

Have judges giving up on upholding the law in favour of "cultural sensitivity?"

With judges like this we need not worry about the introduction of shariah. We already have something that is arguably worse!

Is this the end result of multi-culturalism?

Danielle I wholeheartedly endorse your last post.

Ginx,

I don’t think anyone here is arguing that Aborigines have got a raw deal.

I have a feeling that refusing to uphold the law of Australia in Aboriginal communities may be doing more harm than (allegedly) stealing a generation.

I am left wondering whether at least some of the "stolen" generation" were not the "rescued" generation.

BUT

If, after being removed, the children were abused then they have a right to sue those who failed to exercise a duty of care. So do non-Aboriginal children who were removed.

If my comments make me a "racist" or an "unworthy Jew" in your eyes so be it.

Schmalz day - errh I mean sorry day – strikes me as a circus that may make some people feel good but will do nothing to improve the lot of most Aborigines for reasons I mentioned in my original post.

Stevenlmeyer:

1)I did not even imply that you were a racist, I HAVE called a nasty little diatribe that is being peddled on the net racist. And it is. (It was put up on another Australian Forum on the same day as it was put on a thread here, and was removed by the site owner;-as racist. That owner is a Conservative and only a partial supporter of the apology, but he would not allow that RACIST rubbish to remain).

2) Absolute shame on you!! I DID NOT suggest directly or indirectly that you were an 'unworthy Jew'. (God! the very phrase makes me shudder!). What I WAS referring to was that the Jewish race has known suffering, I would have expected a little more empathy from you. That was silly of me..
__________________________________

We are spoiled for choice at the moment aren't we?
We have the choice of criticizing the apology;- at the very least placing conditions on it. OR; we can pick the hell out of anything Muslim.

Aborigine-Muslim. Oh happy days!

Steven,

You stated:

"A judge who allows gang rapists to go free. ... A judge who gives credence to the idea that getting an 11 year old to suck your penis MAY be inducting the child into "men's business!"

Two elders have come out and stated that this had no fact in "men's business".

I have only heard of one "particular" rite practiced - and in a very small group, and in a very remote area - which fell under "men's business"; and this was a once-only event during some initiation, and between legally consenting adults.

I have never heard of child abuse, of any sort, as a practice under the umbrella of "men's business." Hopefully, more elders will raise their voices and be heard.

I agree with you, about this judge. If a person suffers as the consequence of another's action, even if it be accidental, or done in innocence, the person who committed it is liable. This is law. I believe that this is also imbedded in indigenous tribal law.

I found this backgrounder on Mary Hooker of the "Stolen Generations Alliance."

See:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23204370-25717,00.html

SNIP

Take Mary Hooker, presented by the Sydney Morning Herald this week as a representative of the "stolen generations" - one of the black children stolen by white racists for no good reason.

Hooker, a spokesman for the Stolen Generations Alliance, told her story in a video clip on the Herald's website, during which the camera panned over documents relating to her case.

I froze the picture to read what I could. And here is the true story of this "stolen generations" child.

Hooker's mother was in fact taken to hospital unconscious from an overdose of pills, and Hooker says she didn't wake up for two weeks.

She left behind her 12 children in a house that welfare officers found had plenty of rubbish but little food: "The only food available was three sausages and a small piece of steak."

There is no mention of any man in the house, but the documents show the dad of seven of the children was a prisoner at the Mount Mitchell Afforestation Camp, a low-security jail.

There is also no mention of abuse in what documents I could read, but Hooker last week admitted on ABC radio "there was also abuse going on in the community", and that she had been "raped".

END SNIP

Many posters will object to this backgrounder because it was written by the "notorious" Andrew Bolt. If Mr. Bolt has his facts wrong feel free to post a correction here.

Was Ms Hooker stolen? Or was Ms Hooker rescued?

Here is a link to the “Stolen Generations Alliance.”

http://www.sgalliance.org.au/contact1.htm

I doubt the viability of remote Aboriginal communities. It may be that salvation for many, not all, Aborigines lies in moving to cities as have many Australians. The jobs, the opportunities, are mainly in the cities.
Stevenlmeyer,
Depends on what one perceives as "OPPORTUNITY". An opportunity is when someone gets into a situation which could prove to be suitable for that person. Some people are unable to see such a situation. Other's are. Many think they do. Many more think it's better for others because it suits themselves. I have chosen to spend my live in a remote area because I appreciate the opportunity of being able to remain an individual, something not possible in cities. my gripes is that so many people go to remote areas because of job opportunities which suit them but it doesn't suit the community they move to. I know many people in remote communities who are fed up with having to live the constant frustration of dealing with the well-meaning who only show up because of the opportunity to earn money. Most of those whom they're supposed to be "helping" do not want that interference because it is of no help to them. Unfortunately, the Experts are not expert enough to comprehend that not everyone wants to live in an automatic sheep station called Mainstream.

Individual,

If you're able to earn a living in a remote area then that's great.

Plainly many Aborigines cannot.

As I said in my original post:

"If the remote communities are to become viable the locals are going to have to display considerably more entrepreneurship than they have shown hitherto. They are also going to have to go out and sell their communities to business as investment destinations."

If some Aborigines will not move to areas where they may be able to earn a living then they have to entice those opportunities to come to them.

There do not seem to be any other options.

Ginx,

I just noticed your comment. Aborigine - Muslim. You have hit the nail on the head!

Should we accept codes which admit of executions of 9 year girls because of cultural sensitivity? Would this judge bow to this cultural code?

One could argue at what point ...? ... matter of degree ...

When a judge accepts child-abuse because of "perceived cultural sensitivity", we should call for a re-evaluation of our legal system.

Possibly this judge, and others like her, tip-toeing round "notions of cultural sensitivity", would argue that the government can provide psychiatric counselling for the victims.

Is this political correctness gone mad?

At least the British in India brought an end to the practice of suttee. No Indian has raised
their disapproval of the enforcement of this prohibition.

I am unable to see why sex-offenders in communities can’t be removed. This would seem a priority - absolutely essential. In the white community, many families remain quiet when this is occurring, because they may be dependent upon him/her in some way, such as a male provider. This does not seem a plausible argument in indigenous communities. Without removal of one of the main problems, any “assistance” won’t even amount to a “band-aid”.

When known child offenders move into a white community, they aren’t exactly welcomed. Why should they be permitted to stay and re-offend on indigenous communities?

Just a passing thought ... The Goddess of Justice, represented as a blind-folded woman, is the symbol of our legal tradition. Originating in ancient Egypt, adopted by the Greeks, then the Romans; even representations in ancient India, it remains today the symbol of justice throughout the world.

Danielle,
It is not only judges that tip toe on issues of 'cultural sensitivity'. Our Federal and State Governments do also on at least one issue I am aware of.

Female genital mutilation (FGM) has been carried out here for many years. It is against the law but no one has ever been charged. Why, when one hospital alone treats one patient a week for post FGM problems. What about other hospitals and medical clinics, and how many girls do not receive any medical treatment. Most of these girls are born here, they are Aussie girls. It is child abuse but nothing is done.

My last correspondence from the NSW Health Minister said they have an education programme (going on for 14 years) and it is 'culturally sensitive'. I don't wish to start a debate about this, on this thread, and there may well be other matters where some sections of the community are treated differently than the mainstream.

Are aboriginal child offenders allowed back into the communities? Maybe those communities do not view the offences as serious as anglo communities. I shudder to think what would happen to an offender if he/she came back into a small anglo community.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that the girl victim of that NT abduction, imprisionment and rape had to leave her community because she was harrased by community people. Now that is hard to understand.

Stevenlmeyer,
I don't dispute the rationale of your post. What i am drawing attention to is that the majority of people are conditioned by consumerism to live the way they do. The only time I hear an indigenous person to ask for commodities is via the media. Most really don't demand many of the so-called services that are provided by the taxpayer. Much of this is imposed because public servants demand conditions to be provided which are not demanded by many long-term remote area residents. This is the negative side of the so-called equal entitlements for remote area communities. With this come all the rules & restrictions to which main stream is conditioned. People in the bush are not & this creates much discontent. The argument that people have to pull their weight is not opposed by many. What is opposed is the fact that many of the resources are taken from remote area & when some of the wealth from these resources is put back into the community it is portrayed as taxpayer funding.

Banjo,

I take your point. However, there must be definition on our books as to what constitutes abuse. Before migrants come to this country, they should be informed that
certain matters are criminal HERE. Perhaps, even require ALL migrants, whatever their
background, to sign a document stating that they understand what constitutes criminal activity.

Female circumsion has no relevance to religion - either Islamic or Christain; indeed, those who first converted to Christianity also practiced it - not now. It is an ancient tribal practice. In one place where it was practiced, the women themselves, refused to permit their daughters undergo this procedure. I am sure that we have migrants from such areas that practice this - however, I am also sure that other migrants from the same area don't.

Either we have laws in place - in which EVERYONE IS EQUAL before the law, and EQUALLY PROTECTED by law. What of the victim in all of this? It really is appalling that the people we elect haven't got the courage to make a stand. Surely, we don't need a referendum on this ...

As it is; it seems that everyone has to be sensitive to barbaric "cultural" practices. But those who do it, don't have to have any cultural sensitivity to the laws of the land of their adoption.

Danielle,
Yes, FGM is a cultural matter as people of various religions carry it out. I consider it to be barbaric child abuse and it is disappointing that parents carry it out here with impunity from our laws.

Your first point about migrants getting information is interesting.

Up until now potential migrants have had to find out about our society, laws and culture from their own sourses or word of mouth. Only when their visa application was approved were they given official information. This has always been the case and just prior to the last election changes were made to have the information given when an approach was made to obtain a visa. Last I heard this material was ready for printing, in many languages.

I don't know what has happened since the election, but hopefully it will continue as previously decided. Its an obvious beneficial change.

Banjo,

Thank you for your comments. There has been discussion before OLO, that prior to migrants coming to Australia they should be educated about us, our laws, even our constitution. This should be implemented by the relative embassies. It must be frightening to arrive in a strange country and not know anything about it. At least this would be a good means of introduction.

This is no way should be seen as a means to discourage and isolate migrants, but is absolutely necessary information - specially for those liable to experience culture shock.
We shouldn't be expected to radically change our values, developed over hundreds of years, to accommodate those we perceive as undesirable, such as female circumcison.

Generally, before aussies go to spend an extended period of time in another country, they
seek as much information, even undertaking language classes. This is part of the joy of visiting other places - otherwise we may as well stay at home and watch travel programs on TV.

When I was younger (I don't know if this this happens now) prior to entering another country, one was issued with "notes for your guidance" ... I recall that our sign for OK (thumb and forfinger in a circle) was an obscene insult in (I "think" Greece). Even this advice is necessary.

I was once told by bunch of females, that schmalz is actually what
they want to hear.

"That dress looks wonderful on you", "you are the most gorgeous
female that I know", "of course you are not fat". etc. etc.

I guess this is where we have some stereotypical gender
differences. Men are more into things, women more into how
they feel. Its already apparent at a young age.

I think its actually true, as I know a few males who are experts
at dishing out schmalz and they have kids running around
everywhere :)

Seems that David Burchell shares my misgivings. Maybe he reads Online Opinion ;-)

See:

FUZZY FEELINGS WON'T SAVE ANYONE

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23229210-7583,00.html

Some snippets

...It's not clear that most Aboriginal children were actually taken from their families on explicitly racialist grounds,

...conscience, guilt, atonement and forgiveness can be double-edged emotional swords. … Bestowing an apology on another can cause us a perverse kind of pleasure: the pleasure of feeling better about ourselves as apologisers.

Perhaps that's why so many of the people …managed …to be so mean-spirited towards the hapless but basically well-intentioned Brendan Nelson. They were distancing themselves from the other Australians out there, those less virtuous than themselves.

...I worry whether a PM ...will muster THE STRENGTH OF CHARACTER TO BE HATED (vociferously hated, perhaps) by many Australians - white and black alike - for making the kinds of unpopular decisions that are surely required. (Emphasis added)

The danger is that in a generation's time we'll have a new apology to make. Put briefly, it might read something like this:

* It was we who kept Aboriginal people in chaotic communities without livelihoods, services or decent sanitation, in the belief that in this manner their culture might be preserved as an instructive reproach to our own

* It was we who persuaded ourselves that while we need decently paid jobs, financial assets and life security as part of our human and social rights, Aboriginal people were happier and more in touch with their true nature without those things

* It was we who went on long camping tours of the Top End, where we almost began to imagine ourselves as Aboriginal. Except that when we came back from these sentimental journeys we talked always of land, mysticism and the simple joys of community, and never of hygiene, employment opportunities or child safety.

* It was we who, having operatically distanced ourselves from the hard-hearted policies of another generation, LET OUR SOFT-HEARTEDNESS TURN ONCE AGAIN INTO PURE, UNADULTERATED FUNK.

I don't know all the facts of the Stolen Generation other than what is portrayed in the media. One factor, which I had believed, was that the children were often of mixed parentage. I do not know if this is true. However, if so, where was the white parents' responsibility in all of this. Or, aren't white parents considered a problem in itself - that is - those who take advantage of a very vulnerable situation and then step back. No mention is made of them.

One woman, an ordinary white suburban mum (a staunch supporter of "the apology") stated "boys will be boys" ...

Banjo

(child offenders) "Maybe those communities do not view the offences as serious as anglo communities."

Child abusers are extremely serious let loose in any community. The children retain lifelong problems. If these communities no longer see this situation as it is, then the communities seemed to have lost all hope. Again, this would support the indigenous women who spoke about the "emasculation" of their menfolk - the authority and strength of men's original roles being so taken from them, so that they have no place in the community. These women were strong, articulate and very angry ...

"Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that the girl victim of that NT abduction, imprisionment and rape had to leave her community because she was harrased by community people. Now that is hard to understand."

Again, a case of the victim being punished.

Such harrassment and abuse is not particular to indigenous people. Cases where white rape victims have charged an individual (or groups of males) for rape, the family and friends of the rapists come out in force and abuse the victim. This is common ...

Quote Danielle,17 Feb. "When child offenders move into a white community, they are not exactly welcomed. Why should they be permitted to stay and re-offend on indigenous communities?"

Quote Banjo. "Are aboriginl child offenders allowed back ito the communities?" Maybe those communities do not view the offences as serious as anglo communities. I shudder to think what would happen to an offender if he/she came back into a small anglo community".

So Danielle. Are aboriginal child abusers allowed back into the communities? or as you say "permitted to stay and re-offend".

Now today you say it is common for white rape victims to be abused by family and friends of the rapists. That may occur from time to time, as in the court at the Skaf trial, but common? I have never heard of a community harassing a child rape victim to the extent that she had to leave her home town. This is what happened in the NT aboriginal community to the victim of a child abuser and I repeat, it is hard to understand.

Banjo,

I apologise if I inadvertently misled you. I was referring to adult rape victims, who are harrassed and abused by family and friends of the rapists - as seen outside courts - when cases are being heard. Such harrassment often follows the victim after cases are heard.

Certainly, no-one would, or should, abuse a child who has been raped. This would be appalling - inhumane ...

I am for removing child-abusers from indigenous communities. Elders have stated that this is not part of "men's business". Perhaps elders should be listened to, and their judgements followed up by the full weight of our law.

In earlier times, these elders, who are now relegated virtually to non-roles, would have meted out punishments themselves for infractions of tribale lore. Whilst, their system of "punishments" are not now acceptable, these should be replaced by our legal system. Obviously, there needs to be a coincidence of what constitutes crime between both indigenous and white laws.