I don't have a problem with saying sorry for the "Stolen Generation", although the HREOC report "Bringing them home" appears to have exaggerated the actual facts of the matter.

But to limit an apology to such a problematic and minor part of the whole story of injustice to Australia's indigenous inhabitants seems to me to be perverse.

Particularly as the events on which it is premised are legitimately disputed and the legislation upon which they were based was passed with the best of intentions.

Yet on so many other events from colonisation to colour bars there can be no dispute, and they affect so many more indigenous than those affected by the "stolen generation". Dispossession and death are much more important and significant than forced removals, many of which could have occurred independently of race.

As I've said in various discussions in this forum, I largely agree with Graham. The apology to the Stolen Generations is fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough.

However, I have to disagree with Graham's assertion that "the legislation upon which [the events of the Stolen Generations] were based was passed with the best of intentions". The removal of "half-caste" Aboriginal children was done with the express intention of 'breeding out' their Aboriginality while their "full-blood" relations died out, as was generally expected to happen.

The idea was to create a "White Australia", which can hardly be described as "the best of intentions".

As Malcolm Fraser told Kerry O'Brien on the 7.30 report: "I've seen the ordinances, I've seen the powers they've given the protectors and the way those powers could be delegated down to a patrol officer level, and the powers were massive.
They, in a sense, could dispose of Aboriginals in a way that nobody else in the whole community would have tolerated for one instant.

For example, certainly up to the late '40s, early 1950s there was a power to send, put it in inverted commas, "delinquent young Aboriginals" off to a place of detention without any trial, without any judgement, without any evidence, just if a policeman or a patrol officer says this man or woman is delinquent and needs to be put in a place of detention. That is absolute power over somebody. No judicial restraint but the law apparently allowed it. The issue was tackled on a racial basis.

Leave the full bloods alone, stop the half-bloods, mixed bloods being brought up in an Aboriginal environment, bring them up in a white environment.

The full bloods will ultimately disappear, the mixed bloods will be assimilated, will become more and more like white people, will know nothing of the history, language and culture of their Aboriginal background and thus the problem will be solved."

Malcolm Fraser further adds, "All the records are in Government files or in the archives. Now, if somebody is going to try and say to
Australians, "Look, what we were taught at school, what we understood of the past is not true, it was a different kind of past." Now, if a PM is prepared to say that and prepared to say,"Therefore, we must do this and this," that has enormous moral authority and I really believe that a PM who acted in that way in relation to this issue would strengthen his moral authority immeasurably."

It is not enough but it is a start, I have faith in Rudd we have not heard his words yet.
But we have seen todays opening of the 42nd Parliament.
I have heard his words about reform and believe he is fairdinkum.
I Hope in 50 years we look back to these two days with pride and know this country will be a far better place for these people tomorrow we take one step of a great many we must take.
I have been part of tens of welcome to country but today was just great truly why did we wait so long?

The whole concept of apologising for the past actions of our ancestors is ludicrous. Is anybody prepared to say sorry to the white children who were also taken from their families? I don't think so! This is clearly reverse racism.
The indigenous population of Australia have been given so much by the Government, perhaps this is from guilt, perhaps it is an attempt to permit them to better themselves. Either way, it hasn't worked and the indigenous population have taken these benefits for granted and squander what they are given. Not all of them of course but certainly the media is quick to portray those that do in a bad light.
When I was in school, I was extremely disillusioned to learn that I did not qualify for Austudy but I was entitled to claim Abstudy due to my Aboriginal heritage and yes, I am caucasian in appearance. I questioned why I could get Abstudy but failed to qualify for Austudy and nobody could answer my question but to say just take whatever the government wants to give you. From that point on I refused to accept anything the government wanted to give me because of my ancestry.
The whole concept of aboriginals being hard done by is a joke and so is the idea of apologising. Funny enough, they can claim discrimination yet they are entitled to so much more than caucasians. This is indeed the lucky country!

I would like to see us go through all of the old massacres for the sake of the aboriginal peoples and bring confession of sin before God.
It would take many curses of communities that curses exist upon, even curses in those communities that the present generation doesnt know about.
I met an old steam engine train driver in a small QLD country town back in the 1980's, he was about 80years old at the time, and he was saying he remembers his grandfather speaking about how farmers in the Hellidon region of QLD used to put strychnine out around the waterholes to get rid of the aborigines. Have you ever seen strychnine death? I did one many years ago in emergency services. Too shocking to describe. Thats one community that needs to make confession of sin on behalf of ancestors to take the rotten devil out of the area. Curses are genuine and spoken about all through the Bible.

To Belly; to Gibbo; to Wassup....I understand your opinions, and pain; I'm a progeny of an Aboriginal mother and an English dad, back in the WW2 period. I had a traumatic childhood, and reverse racism was more common that I thought, because I was white and my brother was black. I've forgiven my mother for the aching bones and the bruises that I was ashamed of on the bus to school, that's the only way her mother taught her, and, my father for not doing anything about it. My point is, one must forgive what has been done, it's the only way I could move forward in life, and as a nation we must also move forward. If anyone of us on this forum is going to take an academic view, based on their personal beliefs, or otherwise a political view, you must listen to the people who have been aggrieved, put your thoughts in your pocket for a while, and listen to the people who have been mostly been disrespected, other than those who have broken the white man's law before and after colonisation, according to when the first fleet arrived, and the enforcement of British justice thereafter. At last I think this nation can exhale with a sigh of relief, that at last we as a nation can regain our self respect, and as a consequence, respect for our fellow man in this country of many world races, and I might say, what are the immigrants to this nation going to think if we cannot resolve our basic beliefs to the indigenous inhabitants of this island. We have in our new Prime Minister a means of doing this, and it's about time.

YES... the 'sorry' does not go far enough!

YES.. most of you are agreed on this!

YES.. some of you who say this now.. were the very ones who politicized or aided and abetted the politicization of the single issue 'stolen' generation purely to damage a goverenment?

TRUE SORROW....should be for the dark side of human nature which regarded itself as having some kind of manifest destiny to take Australia for itself.

TRUE SORROW should be for the fact that there is pretty much ZIPPO we can do about it now.. except try by all means to limit the damage.

BUT...if we had true sorrow, accompanied by 'true repentance' from being:

-receivers of stolen property by virtue of our birth here and our unwillingness to restore said property to its original owners.
-collective guilt for defending property acquired by horrific methods.

Then.. we would try to unwind all the historic sins which brought us to today!

BUT.. the price is too high.....right? we would be denying our birth right.. our identity..our sense of self.

So...what's left? well.. the only thing left is for ....'forgiveness'. What a wonderful concept.. but will us being forgiven by Aboriginal people change anything?
Yep..it will maybe free them from the bondage of hate, and might change a few of the less arrogant among us. It will be like a straight Jacket being loosed from their bodies, freeing them to stop focusing on their pitiful situation in many cases, to move on and adjust to how things are now.

BUT..again, in all of this, there is the issue of 'justice' -sins done but unpunished somehow leaves a sense of 'There is something missing' from the equation.

"I came not to be served, but to serve, and give my life as a ransom for many" Mark 10:45

from which we can then move to:

"I came that they might have life, and have it abundantly" Jhn 10:10

How interesting to see two different Christian perspectives on this subject.

Thank-you. On this subject I will support Gibo.

You know;- we can be churlish and petty, and VALIDLY point out some of the shades of grey. BUT, our indigenous brothers and sisters WERE treated disgracefully; and DID experience genocide at the hands of white settlers.

I am NOT responsible for it.
Sorry is just one silly word.

....but it matters so much to native Australians. It matters so much.

Can't we do this for them? A word. A word that is so important to them. ONE WORD to cover this shocking history is but a tiny thing.

If YOU have a problem with it, then I pity you your appalling narrow mindedness.

I couldn’t agree more Graham.

I’ve been expressing exactly these sentiments amongst friends and colleagues. I seemed to be the only person holding this view. So it is excellent to see that someone else feels the same.

We should note this day it was a historic one.
I am bursting with pride in Kevin Rudd, his speech outdid the Redfern one of Keiting.
And the promises he made say clearly it is just one step we are on the path to a better life for our first Aussies.
No grin on my face nothing hidden, I feel sorry for Brendan Nelson.
He got it wrong, along side Rudd's statesmanship he failed even himself.
I have no doubts right now and for as long as he lives Brendan will wish he could do it again.
I heard other comments we should look closely at , and if a thread gets of the ground we may yet do that.
Long after my death Kevin Rudd's speech will be remembered, it is sad truly that Nelson could do much better he may yet do so in other forums but he let himself down today.

Graham, are you suggesting that an apology be made for the "colonisation" of this continent 200+ year ago? How long is that piece of string your holding?

It is just and admirable to say sorry to those stolen, their families and their communities for the racist and misguided policies of the past. But to suggest we say sorry for merely being, ignores, or more likely, is a Canute like gesture against the tide of history.

I am Canadian born and raised however I have lived in Australia for most of my adult life. For the record I hold Australian citizenship and feel qualified to make the following statement. Following Wednesday's Sorry Day I feel like shouting from the rooftops that I AM SO PROUD TO BE AN AUSTRALIAN. What a wonderful day for our First Nation people.

For us non- First Nation people, we will never fully understand the importance of the symbolic gesture of saying Sorry. Politics aside- it was a dignified apology. We all should feel proud.

Graham,
If it is – perverse– to winnow out the policies/practises surrounding the ‘stolen generation(s)’ to the exclusion of all other ‘wrongs’.

It is –doubly perverse– once having settled on the ‘stolen generation’ period as suitably symbolic/worthy, to then single out one group of many who were affected by such policies & practises, and market an exclusive apology for them.

[ perhaps some of those higher up the social conscience hierarchy of holy orders need write to Mr Rudd on behalf of non-Aboriginals who also had hearth & home violated and point out the (unintentional) slight.]

I too do not think we need say sorry for being here, in fact we started out better than many invaders if that is what some would call us.
Had a look at the polls this morning? even the ones I thought would be pro sorry are not.
We have work to do, we said sorry for our past and the past of our grand parents.
But now both sides must work toward a better future.
Yesterday after the speech I was soon bought back to earth as nearly 200 construction workers[ who did not hear the speech] said it was rubbish.
This included Aboriginals.
Yes I know I am a red neck and a racist, well thats what some say, but we need accountability and education for both sides now.
First song on my player today? from little things big things grow, may play it all day!

Palimpset and Belly, in apologising for the "Stolen Generation" we're apologising for something we on this forum didn't do, so I don't see why apologising for the colonisation and invasion of the country is any different, except that without it, none of the other things for which you might conceivably apologise could have happened.

Apologies ought to be about trying to achieve reconciliation, not about apportioning blame. It's about acknowledging hurt, even if there is no way that the hurt could have been avoided.

Sadly yesterday appeared to be about apportioning blame and the empathy appeared to only be flowing in the one direction. I don't think reconciliation is any closer as a result. Perhaps even further away.

If comments around the blogosphere and talkback radio are any indication, an awful lot of people believe the apology *did* go beyond the stolen generation. It's hard to tell whether they understand what was actually said and are just getting carried away, or whether they think Rudd was apologising for everything. Either way, the spirit of the thing did go beyond the stolen generation, even if the exact words did not.

As I've written on so many posts in this Forum -apologising is a sign of maturity, of a willingness to face mistakes that caused suffering. It heals divisions between people, shows a deepening understanding of the life of a nation and reflects humility and honesty.

The acknowledgement of guilt is not to be confused with personal guilt; rather, it acknowledges a historical responsibility. In the case of indigenous Australians, many of whom lost family, culture and tribe, it helps to soothe the anger and frustration of those who feel affected.

Yesterday's apology by the PM was a proud moment for the nation. But it will take generations to repair the ravages of past neglect and oppression. The size of the job to be done, the nature of the rehabilitation to be undertaken, means that many will not be restored to full dignity and health. They can expect at best only something of a job, something somewhat better as a home. But they can expect and should demand a better life as far as their children and especially, their children's children are concerned.

I believe the new Government will keep all of their promises - and
that includes righting the wrongs of the past as far as the indigenous
Australians are concerned -

seeing that there is already a national sorry day the 26th of May this reached all the way to the UK can someone please explain to me what the aboriginal and torres straight people were seeking as an ultimate goal for an apology on a government level.was it to heal on a personal level was it acknowledgement from the government or the people.if this is what it takes to help heal our country then i am all for it.but it seems there is only the big fat stain of monetary compensation.my ancestors were taken from their country thrown on a boat and dragged halfway across the world and through their labour built farms and towns.i feel that what happened is appalling to say the least but from where i stand this is going to be just another tax for the middle class white man to bear.correct me if i am wrong

The full transcript of both speeches:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/sorry.html

You make your point Graham, but my view differs, not my party right or wrong but true pride true hope.
Yesterday was a day that should have taken place years ago.
It was not the finish just the start.
I do not Dennie some removed children are not stolen , yesterday was not the day to highlight that.
Tell me I am wrong in saying Brendan Nelson did not speak well, yes he twice highlighted issue we can not hide from.
But why has it been the ALPs job to bring this day about?
My tongue in cheek reminder that some think I am racist or at least red neck will again be proved in the next few days .
I intend without backing down from my joy at the events of yesterday to remind some both sides have things to be sorry about.
I just can not bring my self to believe some can not see these folk had no rights as Australians such a short time ago .
And that we should not be both sorry and ashamed?
I will not be around in 20 years but know we will see Kevin Rudd kept his word this country will never forget its past but we will get a better future for our first people.

one must laugh at this.

Rudd apologises but two days before a child was taken from the tent embassy.

Now was this child stolen, well if we look at how the spin has been created yes..

So what do we have rudd taking with one hand and lying and speaking with forked tongue in the other.

Well done freediver for posting the site where both speeches are. I see Ironmaidens points though and it was mentioned on the tv this morning how the speech from Rudd could be used as a stepping stone in the courts for monetary compensation. A minimum figure mentioned was about 50 billion dollars, all funded by a national "sorry" tax. Would Aboriginals still receive money from other funds and sources such as the money given to the Aboriginal Benefits Account or would the government still fund such things as agroforestry where Aboriginal communities receive multiple sources of funds from an industry provided to them by the government. Applicants to the Aboriginal Benefits Foundation can receive $500 to $5000 grants to promote artistic or community projects. There are of course many more benefits offered and received by Aboriginals and their communities. Another example are the housing projects built by the Australian army at the request of Aboriginal communities, when, once built they were destroyed by these communities and demanded they be rebuilt. Would this be stopped once Aboriginals are compensated?
Perhaps for permitting the Aboriginal community to become dependant on government handouts and benefits, we as a nation should be sorry.

At this point the thread stalled so many do after such a post in fact it ends most threads.
Like the garden hose kinked around a kids toy it stops flowing.
But it has much to give yet I often think why do we not get the kink out and continue.
I think this is not the place to highlight real concerns about todays Aboriginals.
Nore is it the place to talk about compensation, in fact no place would be for me.
I truly with all my heart and brain think Brendan Nelson too fell into the trap of not understanding this historic event.
We can if you wish debate side issues like saying sorry we exist, not me, not here, not now.
White man even hunted and killed these people, we said sorry we did what a nation should do, often we spoke for other people long dead but we did it.
I confer no sainthood on Aboriginals but while willing to debate other issues in other places am still proud and electrified by this country's start to a better life an accountable educated life for them.
I am proud because we said sorry.

Belly SAID

I will not be around....

PALE comments.

wassup, your comments are pretty on the money.
GY I agree the apology hasn’t gone far enough but not in terms on billions of dollars in pay outs.

Belly speaks of Rudd keeping his words. Yey Sure he did. He promised to say sorry if he were elected. He was elected so he kept his promise.
Now considering Rudd is so interested in a future for Aboriginal people and that most of these people grew up on stations you’ve just got to look at Rudd’s past on 'all' promises made pre elections.

ALP Rudd’s promise to the Australian public that very much affects aboriginal people was broken within two weeks.

Mr. Rudd ALP promise was = “A Labor Government would Ban Live Exports if the public demanded it"
They would reopen abattoirs is regional and rural areas where there are high degrees of unemployed. Many of these being our aboriginal people.

So Mr. Rudd ask yourself this- If you are going to help aboriginal people then why did you break your pre election promise knowing its the aboriginal people and regional areas that stood to gain more than any other community.

Why did you lie to the Australian public and dump O’Brien who you approved to appearing on ABC Landline just two weeks prior to the elections.

More importantly Mr. Rudd when are you going to reopen abattoirs in outback areas and give aboriginal people a chance to operate their own business.

Saying Sorry doesn’t go far enough you have to have a back up plan.
Once you reopen plants you employ not only people in kill rooms but employment is packing and manufacturing of goods transport IT electrons plumbers Drs nurses and before you know it aboriginal people are self stuffiest.
Handle these people with great care Mr. Rudd. Now more than ever they need strong kind but firm leadership.

You're right, Belly. A sure sign that a thread has passed its use-by date is when PALEIF jumps in to hijack it.

What on earth do live exports have to do with the Apology, except in the minds of fanatics?

Morgan
It has everything to do with it. Rudds apoligised one one hand but behind the face of public he broken his promise to get regional and aboriginal areas up and running.
You cant just say sorry and then opt out on other promises to return his work to the bush and regional areas alowing the "aboriginal people to move forward."

If hes really sorry then stick to pre election promise that will enable these people to have a future.

You have need then for plumbers electrians packers cleaners drivers boners.
This is the root of any area. This is what aborignial people NEED a furture and he sraight out lied to the public.

Clearly you do not understand ecomony and what makes a nation great.
it is by supplying people with training and their OWN business oportunities.
I dont hear Rudd speaking of that!

Morgan
Another thing BTW. I am sick to death of people like yourself and belly carrying on each time we make a comment.

It just so happens that Aboriginal affairs are very much in our area.
We have MOUs with Aboriginal Elders to establish training and programes and not just I the last ten minutes.

We have worked with QLD State Government and others over a long period of time.

So If you can not see the connection between Rudd saying sorry then dumping Obrien who was prepaired to work on aboriginal programes in full support of RSPCA push to reopen plants in areas where they provide training and a job and ownership of their Own business futures then thats your problem.

So we say yes we agree with GY Sorry isnt enough. Give these people a future and stick to your promise Mr Rudd. The other promise!

We have not made comment despite the fact we are probably the only people on this thread to have actually been working with Aboriginal Leaders.
Thats was because we knew you would or someone would try to claim we were off topic.
Well we are very much on topic!

In any course of events there has to be a starting point. When the first Aboriginal was killed in a far-off country which nobody knew much or cared about, it was the start of something the person who pulled the trigger or wielded the club could not possibly foresee. The action itself was not even significant and reflected an entire corpus of "knowledge" which was considered valid at that time.

In and of itself the word "Sorry" may seem just as insignificant in the light of the knowledge we possess to-day. But to me its value lies in the fact that it may be the definable starting point to something else.

Elsewhere I posted on the effects that have been seen in my corner of the globe. Since then my students have devoted a two-hour discussion period in class to the topic. The only things most of them knew about Australia before related to the Opera House and koalas. They have moved on to human rights, history, culture, law...all because of a word. Their focus has changed and their interest and concern been aroused. In this way we ensure that people, actions and policies are not forgotten.

One word can represented the first step in a very long journey.

PALE- You have so missed the point of this thread. However, as difficult as this may be, we must have compassion for you – you just do not know any better. You consistently prove your ignorance and lack of moral fibre on any topic that is not about cows, sheep and the like. Furthermore you do not do your cause justice because of your narrow-minded views. You are a walking and talking example of an organization NOT to support because of your nasty outlook on just about everything.

You have manipulated this thread to highlight your own cause. You really don’t give a rats toss about Aboriginal people. You simply view them as nothing more than a cheap labour source in the abattoirs- which is in your best interest- not necessarily theirs. The fact that you think you know what is good for them only confirms your disassociation from reality. Shame on you.

Romany
As usual, Pleasure to read.

TammyJo,
No we have not missed the point. We work with Aboriginal people and have done so for a long time.

Sorry isnt enough unless its backed up with good projects to bring about 'real changes' and all promises kept.

We wanted to highlight the problems after Rudd dumped Obrien and broke his pre election promises.

You 'think' you are insulting me for what ever reason you choose but your actually insulting the Aboriginal people themselves because its their MOUS!

Here are Brads details and if you have an once of common decency you can apoligise to him yourself but that still leaves dozens of people giving up their time insulted.>

Bradley Saunders
A/Assistant Director
Partnerships and Innovation
Strategic Partnerships Office
Department of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Policy

Sorry Doesnt go Far Enough!
It can even make things worse and deepend the rift if thats all there is.

The tireless work done to deliver the wishes of the aboriginal people have been left in the dark again!
Brad of course is Aboriginal himself and you can see out site to view him speaking with leaders world wide about aboriginal affairs.

Each meeting held on the Gold Coast is officially opended with a welcome from aborignal represenatives and is received warmly by international guests.
This is our live style Tanyjo and your comments are both insulting and out of line.
I am also proud to say I know Collin Dillion and Graham his uncle as friends.
I dont think we have been unreasonable given we actually have the results of broken promises coming in here daily by phone from angry heart broken Aboriginal people.


Rudd Saying Sorry on one hand while withdrawing "other promises made pre elections" that directly effects "their" MOUs towards bringing solutions on the other, isnt good enough.

"Its nowhere near good enough."

Tammy Joe may I say thanks? I am fighting so hard to avoid the host who post as pale.
I would SO much like to talk to yabby Nicky pf so very many about animal welfare and live exports.
I can not.
Pale invades threads I am involved in to taunt me, no other reason.
This thread is memorable to me, it is like destroying tombstones to degrade it.
My country has finally under my proud party said sorry.
We can start to rebuild to continue to build on that.
It is a forum rule, it truly is, not to divert threads C J Morgan is right ,the thread is dead.
And you highlight another truth, it appears some one knows no better.
I am away for a few days but how hard is it to open a thread?
We are approaching the day when yet another car park battle must take place in this forum a debate about thread diversions.
About others rights to think as they wish, about why so many never get involved in threads about live exports and animal welfare
Be proud of Australia I am

I am Aboriginal I have a large family cousins uncles aunts the usual. I first met the pale people when they helped my family with accomadation by a programe that I could only dream of. Nobody had ever assisted us that way before. Practicle help training a job even someone to help after my last baby. When I found out about their work with animals I was over the moon because I love animals.

After a while I was asked if I would like to help with getting some of my people in their own business. Aunty May who is like everybodies Mum is growing herbs and she has got several of the others doing likewise.Then they are all going with the people who run pale and I am proudly going along as well to Austrade meetings to export not only herbs but the bush tucker sources dome of the men are getting into.

For the first time people have started talking about their own bush tucker and vegetable export business with much pride.

The Abattoirs being run by our own people and the farms would be fantasic. Sorry From Kevin Rudd has made some feel better but as a aboriginal person I know some are just after money that would be best spent on establishing the business to give our people their own sense of pride.

As a aboriginal lady who knows far more than anynody on this thread I am sad at your attacks on a group that I chose to be part of.

pale did not barge in at all. We are really upset that Kerry Obrion was dumped. pale are the only ones on this thread that work with our people. please take it from us. Sorry is not enough if the promise of a future is taken away in the other breath.

Back from my trip lets get this on track, claiming you know better than the rest of us Taryn W is a symptom of the problem.
Here in one of a few threads that for some of us is like a church, true, historic events have taken place, you claim inside understanding.
And maybe you have , but you , the group know as pale, here in this thread insult the intent of the thread, that Australia may not have done enough in saying sorry.
Can you take the time to review for me your groups actions in thread after thread?
Is it not clear for most Australians animal cruelty is appalling? but that most of us understand it is not and never will be your property?
That most are not looking for a meat processor to have the protection of animals as its property?
Start your own threads do not please turn other subjects with constant and rude diversions.
And understand like most Australians I look closely at who I support , your group , just judging on how you conduct yourselves here is not going to see me stand with it on any issue.
Pale went to great lengths to show me I could not have rational debate with them, let me have my views as I leave you to yours.
Taryn W do you not feel just a little concerned about busting into a thread like this? about your peoples past?
Is it not like an advertisement for pale?
To me it was the warning label on a packet of cigarettes, stay away from this brand.

This is the apology that should have been given:
I'm sorry your black.
I'm sorry you have received numerous funds and benefits from the Australian Government - guilt money for perceived wrongs.
I'm sorry you can't handle alcohol.
I'm sorry you abuse your children.
I'm sorry you kill yourselves in custody.
I'm sorry you don't have to work a single day to get paid.
I'm sorry you are a burden on the Australian taxpayer.
I'm sorry you weren't all wiped out the day Captain James Cook first discovered this beautiful country.

I'm sorry that we still have a minority of whining racists with vile ideas like those expressed by wassup.

I agree CJ. I think the sentiments Wassup expresses are contemptible.

Taryn being aboriginal and a delightful enspiring lady is more than qualified to make comment on aboriginal affairs.

The title of this thread was = Sorry too limited.

This invites as does all threads to comment on 'that title.'

I draw you attention to also that Tayn was posting as Taryn and not as pale.

It is not Taryn diverting threads but yourself as you do on each thread either she or we post on.

This thread is about the apology not animal welfare.

Also you need to be very careful making false and misleading aligations against 'any organisation.

Its clear that you have not read the programe which is simply aboriginal people and RSPCA.

The Aboriginal MOUs are designed introduce business partners direct to aboriginal people and lend a helping hand to attend Austrade and or other meetings until they have their chosen programe up and running.

We have a team of lawyers accountants who donate their time "free of charge " As we do until the projects get as far as the Austrade team who then I "most cases" are "very helpful"

However there is ongoing support.
It is a matter of record that YOU belly have attacked Taryn accusing her as being old bitter cant spell and there was some other stuff tossed in there as well like racist pig.

Its also a matter of record that after that you have chased her off several aboriginal threads.

In fact Taryn does post because of your following her around bullying her and calling her names .
I guess she like us saw this thread and thought Gee I would really like to post some comments but I am not game because there is Belly.

Taryn thank you for the kind words but you have given us far more than we you.
You are are total inspiration to your people. Keep up your Austrade projects and dont worry to much about ego maniacs.

For those really interested see-
http://www.abc.net.au/message/news/stories/ms_news_2161802.htm

GY
We agree and may we suggest that wassup, last comment be removed from OLO.
Also Bellys contiuned attacks flaming of pale and contiuned personal abuse towards a decent aboriginal lady should be likewise removed.
TammyJo, likewise. Her comments straight out defamation of this organisation.
We are entiled to seek the details of these posters and presue this matter outside of OLO if this is allowed to contiune and will not hesitate to do so

"We are entiled to seek the details of these posters and presue this matter outside of OLO if this is allowed to contiune and will not hesitate to do so"
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 12:09:12 PM

No, you are not entitled or even entiled to details, to pursue or even presue the matter, even if it is allowed to continue or contiune. You could try it through your 'team of lawyers' though; they can certainly make a legal request for such details....

Personally I shall be very interested to see how far you get.

________________________________________________________________

NOW:.........................is anyone struggling to see why Washed Up believed he could get away with what he posted?.?.?.? No prizes. Crouge? Rectum? Vacuous?

WELL?.?.?.?.?

Sadly I must leave this thread It is too important to me to get in the gutter, however in truth Graham, we must confront the constant threats leveled against anyone who questions pale.

While I agree that Wassups comments are vile it is amazes me that those who claim no absolutes are absolutely sure that this person's comments should be banned.

Belly, I am sorry you are leaving this thread. I agree with you- the symbolic gesture of saying of sorry to the Aboriginal people was a very emotional and proud moment for our nation. There is still a long way to go, but my goodness, what a great start.

Now may I offer some advice as far as PALE is concerned Belly- please do not let them get to you. They are absolutely not worth the effort in fretting over. Take comfort in the adage “Studid is as stupid does”

Cheers

I sit here wanting to respond to the diatribe of Wassup. Words fail me- the only thing that comes to mind is Why? Why? Why? Why would someone write something that cruel and misguided. Why?

I voiced this question out loud and one of my sons said " Mom - that person is just an idiot." That is 11 year old logic for you.

It will be interesting to see if Wassup has the integrity to step up and explain those comments. Or is Wassup going to hide like a gutless coward behind those words.

I have recalled a quote from Mahatma Gandhi and shared it with my boy to help him put some perspective to the comments by Wassup.

"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."
Mahatma Gandh

I love going fishing, I did expect a few more bites though and yes, I am in a minority since I am of Aboriginal heritage. It's you whining civil libertarian tree hugging hippies who are contemptible.
For those who wish to know, what I typed before was a copy of an SMS that's getting around. I was curious to see what sort of reaction it would get....like I said....I love going fishing.

Yeah, well I suppose trolling is a form of fishing.

I've commented before about racist trolls and rocks in relation to the Apology.

'Nuff said.

wassup,
That wasnt an apology and as for your weak attempt to distance or justify your actions by posting such discusting offensive comment it only serves to show your cowadly nature of one who strikes at innocent people who have suffered greatly.

I am just wondering what might happen had you directed that at Muslim people.

I would put money on it that it would be on the 6 Oclock News.

I doubt it would still be up on the forum either.
So Why should we let it go because it was aimed at aboriginal people.

I am sick to death of people thinking oh well its only the aboriginal people they are talking about= It doesnt matter they are used to it.
Well heres news= It does matter just as much or perhaps even more! than if you said it for example about Muslims.

BTW Belly Apoligies= It was Morgan who called or organisation Racist Pigs.

On another thread they are talking about freedom of speach.
Freedom of speach is 'very important and so is some control over what irresponsible people say on public forums which needs a much closer ; look at

You need look no closer than wassup, comments.

You will be identified wassup, and made answerable that much we promise the Aboriginal people who will read this for many years posbly after suffering death of their loved ones
Shame On You.

"I agree CJ. I think the sentiments Wassup expresses are contemptible."
Posted by GrahamY, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 8:30:19 AM

Really? I think you are being a little politically correct...? Those of us who have the same sentiment, have been sadly swayed by the demon PC.

Washed up was simply exercising freedom of speech.

Wasn't he?

PALE&IF: "It was Morgan who called or (sic) organisation Racist Pigs"

Really? And when exactly did I say that?

Wassup: You must be kidding. I'm just curious, are you even old enough to contribute to this forum? What are you- about 12?

So, lets get the facts straight

You recklessly quoted a bigoted and racially degrading bunch of crap, copied from an SMS no less. (By the way, do you have a problem having an original idea for yourself?) And you somehow rationalize that this is O.K. because you are of Aboriginal heritage.

You then slink off like a naughty snotty nosed brat waiting for a reaction.

This has nothing to do with civil libertarian tree hugging hippies you poor misguided fool. It has everything to do with demonstrating human decency, acting with honor and integrity, standing up and supporting your brother and sisters, not perpetuating the overt discrimination and sterotypes our aboriginal people deal with on a daily basis. You had an opportunity to stand up to those who were circulating the disgusting SMS. But you chose to further inflame a highly sensitive issue with your school yard prank rather than choosing be a hero to your people. A friend to your nation.

Finally, you say you like going fishing? Please do not let us stop you. Go the nearest jetty or beach and keep on walking. With any luck the sharks will be biting.

CJ Morgan
Ask GY He deleted it. If you like I will ask Antje to post a copy but are you really sure you want me to?
Be quite~ about yourself and stand up and demand someone done about this statement that is SO dreadful about our aboriginal people for goodness sake!

And lets face it has wassup comment been deleted which to me would seem he decent thing to do then we wouldn’t have to look at changes to the forums would we.
So if was he s a school kid as Tammy suggesting is possible then that would support your claims Morgan that people should be made to post in their real names and present ID.
I happen to agree.
One thing I know is nobody is going to get away with saying such a disgusting thing about aboriginal people.
I mean. Why we are the only ones to have requested the offensive comment be deleted?

Are we the only ones prepared to speak out? When ARE we going to get serious about showing some respect for aboriginal people?

Taryn may like the privilege of forwarding a copy of this to Kevin Rudd.
Taryn we will fully support you and your family and Aunty and together we stand united for our aboriginal people.

Remember the id who burned the flag Taryn= Well IMOP this is worse= especially right now.
We requested it taken off as we promised to do Taryn but GY thought clearly it was ok to stay on the internet.
Sensational stuff for OLO but I guess that’s his business. Quite extraordinary IMO

PALE&IF: "Ask GY He deleted it. If you like I will ask Antje to post a copy but are you really sure you want me to?"

Not good enough, PALEIF. I don't recall ever using such terminology about anyone on OLO.

I think you should put up, or shut up and apologise.

I did delte a comment, but I don't recall CJ calling you pigs. If anyone keeps this squabble going on this thread I will hand-out some suspensions. And I'll be leaving Wassup's offensive comment there - people need to know what's going around on SMS. I saw something similar, except it dealt with the "stolen generation" in terms of "stolen cars, stolen..." you get the picture, ending with the claim, that at least they "won't steal our ...jobs". Not nice either. But it appears this sort of thing was reasonably widespread amongst a particular set of Australians. Makes you realise how far away reconciliation is.

I would like to thank Tammyj Ginx and pale and all other posters who have not supported the person making the vile coments about my people.
pale please leave this with us now because its clear freedom of speech
does not include to question if the comment should have been removed.
As an aboriginal person it has deeply upset me. Not so much that some idiot said it but that it was left there.
There is so much to be done to mend bridges and already sixty people are to file to sue the government now they have the apology.
I never agreed to this for that reason although sorry to the older ones in many cases was all they wanted.pale please let this thread go now because I recall the results of the last time you stuck up for me.
Its not going to help us if your stopped from posting and that is how I see it reading the comments.
We will keep up with our projects and I know many of my people need to make a bigger effort in lots of areas.
Thank you for asking for that comment to be removed on behalf of my people pale. Tammyj Ginx hope to se you on another thread some time and thanks from the bottom of my heart.
Let us take it from here please
Taryn

Nice one Tammy. I do believe there are enough children commenting on this forum already judging by the comments given by some.
By the way, at no time did I apologise for my posting...why should I?
I did not apologise and have nothing to say sorry for, since my previous postings were my own thoughts (excluding facts obtained from Aboriginal services).
The majority of comments on this forum have become nothing more than childish attacks upon others who post comments with an opinion contrary to someone else who believes they are better than others.
I do agree with the comment that people are becoming to policically correct these days and it does seem quite ironic that the majority of people who oppose anti-indigenous sentiments are those who are non-indigenous. Guilt perhaps or just a good show for the general public?
It's not for me to choose or judge the hearts and intentions of others, but obviously there are those on this forum who believe they can do so. So be it.

Being new to this forum, I am unfamiliar with those participating. It does seem however that there are varying opinions on the subject, there is a group who believes certain opinions should not be expressed, especially if they differ from their own. An example would be that of Tammy and wassup. Nobody seems to have mentioned that wassup is of Aboriginal heritage and while his opinion is certainly not that of the majority, wassup is entitled to his/her point of view. This is after all a democracy and we do have freedom of speech. I deal with many indigenous people on a daily basis and perhaps those I deal with are not upstanding members of the community, this however is not for any person to judge, God will judge us all come the day of Christ's return. As for the topic itself, is sorry too limited? In my humble opinion, yes it is. Rudd did say he would put certain plans into motion to provide indigenous people with better education and the like. Of course, these things cannot be achieved over night and do take time.
As for getting wassup's details, privacy laws forbid such a thing, again, God bless this democracy we live in. If members of this forum were to obtain wassup's details, what would be done with them? Would we become a communist country? or worse? Our diggers fought hard and sacrificed much to keep our country free from such things. Again, this is just my humble opinion and personal attacks do not glorify anybody. Be at peace with one another and love one another, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, Jesus Christ that everyone may have eternal life". John 3:16

Welcome passive to the forum Wassup may or may not be Aboriginal and while you talk of freedom of speech surely those who oppose the post are able to say so?
In time here you may grow to dislike me, I am not a Christian, but I share the view Rudd has just begun to fix this open wound.
My truly held concerns for our first Australians is not weakened by my understanding some need to change too.
But in a thread like this some intrusions are surely unneeded?
I find any threat to find out more about any poster , well what can you say that would not be offensive?
Quite simple really no one should uninvited look into others lives.

"Be at peace with one another and love one another, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, Jesus Christ that everyone may have eternal life". John 3:16"
Posted by Passive, Friday, 22 February 2008 11:35:45 AM

With the greatest of respect Passive, this is a quite extraordinary finish to your post after endorsing Washed Up's right to say whatever he wants regardless of its utter nastiness. Do you think his invective rubbish is a good example of 'love one another'?

Or is this another example of selective Freedom of Speech?

One more thing. Washed Up is no more an indigenous Australian than I am.

________________________________

I have checked the forum rules GY, and 'squabbles' are not a forum breach of rules. I would also remind you that the Cronulla riots were started as a result of SMS messaging. It is hardly constructive to use that as a reason for allowing this creature to post this inflammatory rubbish.

Given your comments on your basis for possible suspensions. I am fully aware of the possible consequences of my remarks to you.

It seems hypocritical of me to think these things and not say them; no matter what the consequences.

If I am suspended, I will return and convey strong views on the 'malleability' of Freedom of Speech.

If you ban me. So be it. Some will be pleased, some not; most won't care. Again;- so be it.

It will make a complete mockery of Freedom of Speech!

Any other comments will be addressed to the knuckle-dragging Neanderthals on the related thread in Articles

To whom it may concern

First of all congratulations to Ginx on his previous post re Passive, and we don’t want to see you banned for that.

The question as to people posting on any forum and the legal rights of victims are quite simple and I do believe Graham Young addressed this some time ago.

However I am not going back to find his post because I don’t think it’s my place to copy it and re posts it here.
I still get confused also as to some of the rules re posting.
Laws apply to forums as they would anywhere else.
The laws say you may have and use fifty names if you so wish providing that you pay all bills and do not use those names for illegal purpose.
This simply means that if you break a law lets say defamation for example using a forum or anywhere else for that matter i.e. newspaper magazine TV any public place- and your silly enough of course to put it in writing then of course you are responsibly and answerable .

Like wise it works in reverse someone said something that was causing you great distress foe e.g. you were aboriginal you would not think it was fair if that person was immune from the laws simply because they were cowards and used a false name=would you.

So for those naive people claiming they would be offended if made answerable if they said something that was defamed in the eyes of the law only to be defamation that would just be too bad.

There ARE laws and you really ought to consider that before making irresponsible hurtful illegal in some case statements.

Another thing it’s a privileged to post om OLO and we owe GY some respect to his business and his time. He doesn’t even charge a fee which does attacked some people who otherwise might go elsewhere IMOP.

Have consideration for for GY business OLO

Rest assured regardless laws on forums are correct. (if only I knew where to send the bill)smile

Ginx while I agree with your post you may have gone off a bit early.
I can not think for Graham but I would be surprised if his comment was aimed at you, me may be others too but I see no link to you.
It is clear freedom of speech is a rubber band, some see more freedom than others.
But we NEED to see posts such as wassups!
We need reminding and even understanding that some think like that true.
We have to understand, harsh as it is some who do not think that way post just to get us upset.
Some who post are not adults true some we debate with are not yet teenagers.
Some have issues we do not know of Wassup has claimed to be of Aboriginal background that may or may not be true.
If we do not allow such people to talk who next do we censor?
I wrote, check it out, of a kink in the hose, an end to the thread after wassups first post, we stopped for a while posting as a result, if nothing else the second post let us all say we do not agree, that is freedom of speech
regards

Belly
There is a difference between freedom of speech and using false names "to break the law".
A big Difference. The SMS messages that it’s now claimed was posted are in fact illegal.
Now that is the difference. Laws must apply in Australia to all even forums
If this person wishes to own that racist comment they need to use their own name.
The should not be encouraged or protected by getting away with using a false ID to break the law.
It really IS that simply. I refer you to the Muslim Boy who burned the Australian flag. Just look at the fuss from the public and rightfully so.
This by comparison is worse much worse. It shows the support by people who like to hurt and defame aboriginal people. It is un Australian! Its made by a coward.
The comment is vicious and racist and thank God we have laws in this country to prevent that.
OLO should not be immune from the law or this coward who strikes at aboriginal people too scared to put his or her name to their comment.
I am even more concerned as to how you treat Aboriginal people on the job.
It’s scary to even consider a union official supporting people breaking the law with racist comments.
Real Scar

Twice I wrote out a post it was not rude not unpleasant but I deleted it.
I am no racist my posts surely say that, I have not once in my life sent an sms, see I have no spell check on my phone.
I stand by my quote Wassup posted something I found offensive, but it is a right of free speech.
We learn from the wassups in our life not to hate but why we said sorry and why it is just the beginning.
Above my head is Aboriginal art , it cost too much, I insisted it should paid more than was asked for each bit of it.
Old fashioned as it sounds my union background see,s me say a fair days pay for a fair days work.
My art is a treasure it reminds me my Aboriginal nieces and nephew are too.

PALE, You state “I think it is hopeless. People dont really care for aboriginals or animals… This thread has proved it IMOP.

PALE: My what a broad sweeping statement that is- People dont (sic) really care for aboriginals or animals Exactly what do you mean by all people? All people in the world- universe? All people in Australia? All people on OLO?

Rest assured, there are a great many people out there who do give a damn about the aboriginal people The response to the Sorry speech supports this. Same for animals. They just don’t jump up and down pointing to themselves as the only ones’ who do care and care the most at that.

You state “This thread has proved it IMOP. I really don’t understand why you feel this thread has proved that point. A line was drawn in the sand in no uncertain terms about the comment Wassup made. Yes, it was a poor choice on Wassups part to offer that piece of rancid rubbish and yes it was offensive. Will that person do it ever again? Who knows- hopefully not. However, OLO contributors did speak up and voiced their distaste of the offending comment. What exactly do you want to happen? Maybe flogged and quartered and displayed in the town center? Dragged through court at great expense to all concerned? You can’t change another persons actions and views, only your own- a great life lesson to grasp.

In closing you state “ You’ll be happy to know we are probably leaving OLO,( See after meeting)” PALE please don’t tease like that. However, in the name of fair debate and presenting information on what you do know best – Exporting Animals- that will be sorely missed. I’m sorry to say this, but there are far to many things you contribute that will certainly not be missed. Best of luck.

I think just maybe the thread has progressed as far as it can.
In the time it has ran we did use it to say sorry,almost every one of us.
We did not get into is it enough as deep as we should have but we started.
It is true we think in different ways about this issue, if in 100 years this thread surfaced to be used as a measure of what Australians thought in these historic days I would be happy for all but one of my posts to be reviewed.
That one was deleted, it debated other issues.
I will not again debate those issues.
If the thread continues please let us keep it tightly on subject, as we are in historic times.
As I side issue my e mail in box is often seeing racist soon deleted offensive things even worse than wassups.
Is yours too?
Do we hide from it or admit such things exist?

I've deleted a number of posts. This thread is about relations with indigenous Australians, not the mechanisms of posting on this site. I have had all the to and fro between PALE and various other people. I think I threatened a suspension last time. Well, next person to post on these ancient squabbles will be suspended.