Wellllll...now I've heard everything....(again)

What a sickening image to wake up to on a Saturday morning!

Wayne Swan, gracefully winging his way through an interview(Press release?) designed to give the impression that the new Government is

-Cracking down on capitalist pig dog banks
-Doing DYNAMIC things to whack them into shape
-Protecting we the poor mortgage burdened workers

well that was the 'impression'...(to that segment of the population on the left of the 'moron' dividing line.)

ACTION PLAN...
-We will ENSURE that 'information' about what banks are charging is freely available!(wow)
-We will make it EASIER for people to "know" what banks are charging in entry/exit fees.
-We will 'ask' the regulator to 'look at' entry exit fees.
-We will make sure banks pass all your information to a different bank you choose.(I'm blown away)
-We will continue to foam at the mouth like this until we feel you actually believe that we are 'doing' something 'for you'.

THE REALITY.

NEWSREADER "How MUCH will customers be saving"?
SWAN "What we are about is ......"

NEWSREADER "But Mr Swan.. in DOLLARS AND CENTS...how much will customers likely save through these initiatives"

SWAN "Labor will do all it can to ...."

NEWSREADER (looking sideways almost) "Will customers actually save anything" ?

SWAN.. blah blah..yada yada...Labor good.. coalition bad.. pigs, dogs.. blah blah..labor will.. labor this...labor that ..yada yada..

COME ON! Wayne.. is insulting the intelligence of all Australians a good way to begin a government ? God help us if that mentality is running the finance of the country..*shudder*

QUESTION.. "do you feel insulted by this exercise in public relations/spin" ?

Cracking down on banks if only that were true. Spin is rife on both sides of politics and the moron line is a grey area.

The problem is even if governments could encourage banks to reduce or eradicate fees to make changing banks easier and in turn increase competition, how many of us would make the change given all the things we would have to do. Close down all the other accounts, stop the direct debits and change credit cards just to name a few.

And just when we find a bank with reduced fees and lower interest rates or higher interest rates on savings, the playing field changes and we would have to keep doing it all over again. If the aim is to keep the B**s honest we are all going to be very busy. :)

In our dreams.

Face the truth and stop whingeing. Politicians can do nothing about our banks. They are as much their victims, albeit better paid, as we are. The last politician to try to control the banking industry was Ben Chiffley and the banks united to destroy his chance at re-election. If you want to live in a capitalist society, you have to put up with the cost. User pays, after all. If you want to live in Cuba, you will have access to a good health service but you won't have all the new toys we can buy in our society and you won't be able to let off steam freely and meaninglessly on the internet, like we can now.

Hi Henry and Pelican

actualllly...... the last time banks were controlled by the government was before the CBA was privatized!
It was a peoples bank..and people friendly..I remember it. When I went there I actually felt they were trying to help me... not hit me in the hip pocket from every angle.

NO...I don't want to live in a 'capitalist' society.... I neither want to live in a SOCIALIST society..I want to live in a balanced middle ground.

Sadly, whenever one bleets about something like a "peoples bank".... the howls and cries go up from what one is tempted to believe are the 'paid hounds of the major commercial banks'....

Of all the things we need a 'peoples' one of.. HEALTH and BANK are they.

So.. now..along with my manifest of:

1/ NO HATE SPEECH which calls for violence against members of our own society for saying things others don't like. (but passionate critical speech is most welcome)

I now add.

2/ PEOPLES BANK. (that will SURELY keep the other B*stards honest)

3/ PEOPLES HEALTH.

We absolutely need those 3 things for a good happy society.

Aaah..the vision is becoming clearer.

You know..the ONLY thing which would be hurt by having a peoples bank is the PROFIT margins of the big commercial ones.. and that.. has pretty much ZIPPO effect on me.. I don't have any of their sullied shares.

According to this morning's newspaper, The Age, Sat. Feb. 9th 2008 -
"Fees charged to people who switch their home loan mortgages will be reviewed, in a move by the Rudd Government to protect consumers facing rising interest rates.

A plan approved yesterday will make it easier to switch direct payments to new accounts - a hassle consumer advocates said was one of the biggest impediments to competition in banking.

The plan, announced by Treasurer Wayne Swan, is designed to be a tough stance against the banks in the wake of increases in rates that are unrelated to official rises.

It comes as the National Australia Bank yesterday announced it would raise rates on its standard variable mortgages by 0.29 of a percentage point - more than the 0.25 of a point announced by the Reserve Bank on Tuesday.

The Government is anxious to demonstrate it is doing all it can to ensure that home buyers are able to shop for the best possible deals.

"There are currently too many administrative and other obstacles Australians confront if they want to change banks," Mr Swan said, after meeting financial regulators.

The Australian Securities and Investments Commission will conduct the review of exit fees and will also manage a one-stop complaints hotline for disgruntled banking customers.

Mr Swan said the watchdog would be, " shining a light on fees, putting downward pressure on them."

Exit fees on mortgages charged by the main banks start at $700, with some lenders charging a percentage of the outstanding loan, which could be thousands.

A spokesperson for Choice, formerly the Australian Consumer's Association, welcomed the Government's initiatives. "Changing debits has been one of the biggest hurdles to consumers. We have been saying for years banks needed to do something about this." Choice said consumers' use of direct debits had doubled since 2000, now averaging 1.8 million transactions a day.

Link: www.understandingmoney.gov.au

I am probably a bit like you David BOAZ in wanting a middle ground (if I have understood you correctly) - neither too rampantly capitalistic (while recognising we live in a capitalistic world) but not something verging on Communism. We are a social democracy but we are moving more and more to the right or towards the new Conservatism which has plagued the USA.

I remember a time when even more Conservative (Coalition) governments operated under free education, socialised medicine and YES...publicly owned utilities and communications, a Bank and an Airline. Governments of both flavours managed to do this without fear of being labelled mad reds or left wing loonies. We don't pay for our schools and this is 'socialised education'. Don't be scared by the word Socialism.

I hate labels really because we become too bogged down with the labels and blind to what might really work. Terms like Left and Right under our system is really meaningless and terms like Regulation and De-regulation are probably more apt in our 'economy focussed' world.

*It was a peoples bank..and people friendly..I remember it.*

All that religion must mean a flawed memory BD :)

Fact is that in those days banks worked on a spread of
4%, (difference between what they charge and what they
pay), today its half that.

In those days, you had to dress up to get a loan, most were
knocked back. Today any young fella with a bit of go in him
can borrow money, start his own business, unlike those
days.

Today anyone can go and buy some bank shares and share in
the joys and risks of the banking industry.

A little less praying and a bit more working might work
wonders for you :)

But, I know, complaining makes you feel better :)

Don't forget that Wayne Swan has his own rep on the RBA and he'll be pushing for higher rates.The reason why?Well you see we have the highest food inflation in the Western world and the oil companies have put up prices way above the inflation rate.The RBA in retaliation increases rates but this will not halt the price increases of the various oligopolies such as Caltex,Shell,Wollies Coles etc that now have a strangle hold on our economy.The result will be more poverty and hardship.Cheap energy/food underpins our living standards
The Howard Govt should have tackled these problems but they were in the pockets of big business just like Labor is.
Well the chickens have come home to roost as Dick Smith predicted.We have enormous wealth but we don't own it.We are being punished for the greed of big business via interest rates.

*Cheap energy/food underpins our living standards*

Thats your real problem Arjay, you have become used to far too
cheap energy and food, for far too long. Times are changing,
get used to it. City Australians might have to learn to actually
work for a living and compete in the global market.

You can't just blame Coles/ Woolies either. We know from
their financials, that their profit margins are in the order
of 2-4%, for their efforts. Huge costs are the problem, inflicted
by an enormous beurocracy who shuffle papers for a living.

Fact is that 1.5 trillion $ a year of wealth is now being shifted
from oil consumers to oil producers. Times are great in the
Middle East, but its our own fault for becoming addicted to their
oil.

As for food, I remind you that even at today's wheat price,
21c is the value of wheat in your loaf of bread, 40c a litre
approximately the value of a litre of milk at the farm gate.
The problem is between the farmgate and the consumer, as everyone
grabs their share. Meat is the same. Worth 1-3$ a kg at the
farmgate, it costs a fortune for the consumer. Many middle
men along the way, have their finger in the pie.

Australia remains a backward place in terms of manufacturing
efficiency, no wonder we can't compete in the global marketplace.

Payroll tax, stamp duty on insurance, the many other taxes
applied along the way, to feed the mouths of the chardonay
set, who shuffle papers, is where the money is going.

In the end somebody has to pay all these costs and its going
to be the consumer, as what farmers are paid for the actual
food, seems to have little baring on what consumers are paying.

Absolute BS Yabby.You swallowed the necessity of poverty concept hook line and sinker.We have a $ trillion economy.Divide this by the number of workers and the averge income should be $100,000.00.This means that each household should be bringing in $200,000.00 pa.Most are lucky to bring in less than half that.Where has all the wealth gone?The answer is big business and Govt waste.We as a nation have a personal debt equal to that of our annual GDP!

We sell natural gas to china for a few cents a litre,yet we pay 70c a litre at the bowser!Just a few yrs ago gas was 30c a litre.We have plenty of energy and resources.Just because the rest of the world over populates their turf,does not mean that we have to suffer because of their excesses!

Yes Plekican...you do understand me correctly.. not TOO socialist..nor TOO capitalist.. a nice mix instead.

Yabby... watch it mate or I'll feeeed ya to Pelican...*CHOMP* :)

I live for whinging..... but I'm also a 'doer'....

FOXY... you did a great job of restating the empty rhetoric which used lots of 'looking at'....'reviewing'.... 'trying' type adjectives.. code for a 'meaningless furrowed brow and glazed eyes'.....

My main whinge is that Swan is singing about things he is trying to just score political points over.. "we are DOING something" when in reality his 'doing' is just 'reviewing/looking/aspiring/hoping'...

Not a lot of dollars and cents in that for us.

I'm not sure what you think is BS Arjay. THE NPAT figures for
Coles and Woolies are commonly quoted in the financial press,
no secret there.

As to gas, yes some cheap deals were done with the Chinese for
30 years. Gas involves huge investments for both the seller and
buyer. Those projects don't go ahead and receive finance, without
firm customer commitment. The Chinese signed on the dotted line,
they got the deal. No Australian company signed to make that
kind of purchase commitment, so they never got the deal.

Of the NW shelf partners, which IIRC is 6 partners, only Woodside
is partly Australian, the rest are overseas oil companies, so
huge profits go overseas.

Yup, as world gas prices go up, Australian pump prices go up,
our prices are tied to the world market price or nobody would
bother making the investments in the first place.

Dear BD,

You'd know all about 'empty rhetoric.' ...

However as always you just don't get it .

The Government approved a plan yesterday that will make it easier to switch direct payments to a new account. The plan is designed to be a tough stance against the banks in the wake of increases in rates that are unrelated to official rises.

You said that there's "not a lot of dollars and cents' in this government initiative?

Exit fees on mortgages charged by the main banks start at $700 with
some banks charging a percentage of the outstanding loan - which could be thousands of dollars. So yes - it's more than just a few
'dollars and cents.'

And by the way, the Australian Consumer's Association welcomed the Government's initiatives. "We've been saying for years banks needed to do something about this."

You're a doer not a whinger?

"Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea;
And Boazy's a doer who can never do wrong,
And I am Marie of Rumania!"

Yabby I agree with much of what you've said in regards some of our inefficient business/govt ways.The cost of energy however is a special case.We could deliver natural gas for half the price and still give the gas companies a profit.Most of it goes overseas and that is where the real profits ly.

The Howard Govt through work choices saw the reality.If we continue to lower tarrifs we must also continue to lower wages/salaries to keep industry here.This is why Kevin Rudd is not dismantling Work choices in a hurry,since he knows that local industry will close down,if it goes.The philosophy of free trade and lowering tarrifs was that eventually poor countries will meet our living standards is a fallacy.There re too many people and there is not enough energy to supply their needs.Of the 1,300 million Chinese only 400 million are presently involved in their industrial growth.In the next few yrs the price of energy and food will escalate and we will be a lot poorer.It does not have to be so!

If we make local energy cheaper than our competitors,then we have a manufacturing advantage and can export more.We also can have much higher living standards as they do in places like Dubai.

Globalisation is for the multi-nationals who want to capitalise the profits and socialise the losses.I don't think it is a good concept in it's present form.Too much power and wealth is too few hands.This is what caused wars and revolutions in the past.

But Arjay, Govts are not in the energy business, companies are.
Yes, there is NW gas coming south for Perth industry, at a lower
cost. The same applies to companies that have set up in the NW,
tapping into that gas. But its not up to Govt commit to
30 year gas contracts and build billion $ unloading terminals
in the East, private enterprise has to do that. If Aussie
companies won't do it, ok, so the gas goes elsewhere.

Australian industry can't compete, based on low wages, just
as Swiss, German, Swedish etc industries can't compete either.
So there have to be other factors. Go to Dubai, Shanghai,
Singapore etc, European luxury goods are selling like hotcakes!
Rich people like prestige goods, its a huge market, thats
just one. Swiss industry, like German industry, makes alot
of niche products, where price is not the driving factor,
as it is with cheap consumer goods. I remind you that the
biggest beneficiaries of cheap consumer goods from overseas,
are in fact the poor. If their clothing was all locally
made, how could they afford the clothes?

There is nothing stopping Eastern States industry from building
a gas pipeline across Australia, tapping into the NW shelf.
Its for your industries to do it, not for Govt to do it.
That makes far more sense then cooling the stuff down to
-160degC, shipping it is not cheap.

The biggest beneficiaries of globalisation are consumers, that includes all of us. You can go to Bunnings and buy a drill for
30$, for instance. If it was locally made, it would cost you
at least 200$. Your standard of living would go right down
with tariffs. Besides, where are all these unemployed people
that you are concerned about?

Dear Foxy one...

"empty rhetoric"... me? :) I can stand that little barb... because I'm sure there are times when I woffle a bit..but "I CAN DO NO WRONG"...

eeeeeeooooouuuuch! that hurts.. now where did you get 'THAT' idea from ?

Just because I criticize different views, and state the Biblical position on such things as homosexual behavior..... have you ever heard or read my saying "Unlike myself who am pure and without blemish or spot" ?

You stagger me mate... but saying I consider myself some kind of "holier than thou" is a tad over the top.

<<Eph 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.>>

Standing for principle.. and advocating a value system based ON...Gods holiness is quite different to saying "and here I am..the abiding example of all that I'm saying"

Chill a bit k. "Issues..not people"

Regarding Exit rates.. aah.. now we are getting to the meat of it.

I heard not a syllable about WE WILL LEGISLATE such that exit fees cannot exceed such and such an amount..I DID hear a lot about "making information available to consumers....ABOUT them"

duh... if consumers take out a loan not knowing what the exit fees are, then I'll feed them to Pelican and Yabby .. dum dums.

"Knowing" about them doesn't change them.

So, the government approved a "PLAN" did they ? hmmmm lets see if its more than just 'recommendations'? Did they LEGISLATE ?
"who's plan"?
"backed up by law"?
"Enforcable"?

mannnnny unanswered questions.

Yabby,back in 1980 I came back from OS with nothing.Within 12mths my wife and myself had saved $20,000.00 which was more than 25% for a deposit on a house at Epping.We paid $76,000.00 for a run down house.We were both working for the Dept of Education on base salaries.Who these days can save even 5% for a house with two parteners working in 12 mths?

We have a far greater GDP per head of pop now, but financially we are far worse off.The answer is that we have become slaves to big business and wasteful Govt.Globalisation enslaves most of us who are not at the top of the food chain.

Maybe I'm too cynical Boaz, but I'm still waiting for the second shoe to drop.

A rambling grizzle about a perfectly unexceptional statement by a government looking to establish some ground rules on what it expects from the banking system. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Where, I keep asking myself, is the catch? Where is the tortuously contrived link with the evils of Islam? Where are your interminable and incomprehensible biblical quotes?

The Banking system, whether you like it or not, is a deceitful oligopoly that has set out, over many years, to establish a foolproof method of guaranteeing itself perpetual profits. This was in response to a scare in the early nineties when their collective lack of management nous nearly ruined the lot of them.

Now they have evolved a process where they have every angle covered, they'll get you via interest rates, or they'll get you via fees and charges. But most importantly, they all do it - there is absolutely no competition for your business between the banks.

And please, don't kid yourself.

>>You know..the ONLY thing which would be hurt by having a peoples bank is the PROFIT margins of the big commercial ones.. and that.. has pretty much ZIPPO effect on me.. I don't have any of their sullied shares.<<

Do you have superannuation? Are you absolutely certain that your fund has no shares in the Australian Banking system?

Because most do. After all, banks make over $20billion in (guaranteed) profit every year.

Dismantling the stranglehold the Banks have over your and my wallet is not going to be easy, even if it is in the end a sensible objective. Perhaps it would be easier to stomach if you think of it as an - admittedly inefficient - means of enforced savings. The banks pocket your cash, but it comes back in the form of a nice fat super fund.

But here's a thought. Perhaps you'd prefer Sharia Banks?

Dear BD,

Again, you're living in a vacuum, unnecessarily quoting your subjective version of the Bible, and blahing on ...

Nobody can get through to you ... And I wouldn't bother usually, but as you did ask - try this website:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/treasurer-to-hold-lenders-to-account/200...

It may (or not) help.

Oh, and by the way BD,

I'm not Marie of Rumania!(smile).

You may want to read my little ditty again.

This time you just may get it!

What Arjay said!

*Who these days can save even 5% for a house with two parteners working in 12 mths?*

Oh lots of people, those who grab the opportunities that are
out there, but probably not in low paid manufacturing jobs.
What do you think that a couple can earn, who work in Roxby
Downs or the Pilbara? The problem with this generation is
they want it all and they want it now. They want to live it
up to the max as well have all mods cons tomorrow. It doesen't
work that way.

A young couple today can still bank one salary and live off
the other, if they are just a bit frugal,as we used to be.
But most don't want to be that, ok, so pay the price.

I have no problem with global companies, if they give me
good products at value for money. Ikea, Microsoft, Walmart
etc, became huge because consumers voted with their wallets
and felt they were getting a good deal, so bought their
products. Why should I be against consumers getting value
for their money?

When we had high tarrifs, we got screwed blind by a few
overprotected Sydney/Melbourne companies, who made alot
of shoddy products and hid behind high tariff walls. Hooray
for knocking those walls down!

In today's world, you can buy shares in nearly any
global company that you please. When I got sick of
banks, I started buying bank shares. Thats the best
thing I ever did :)

Arjay....... 'who can save 5%' etc..?

Yep..I'm not exactly 'agin' ya...and not competely with Yabby, but I do agree on one thing.. a well disciplined couple..both on a pretty basic wage.. like $550/week each..can actually save around $25,000 a year. So, in 2 yrs, $50k.... quite possible.. ifffff disciplined and focused.

Perilous! hahah.. good 1...

Strange as it might seem... my brain does actually function in the economic realm as well as the 'whack-a-mozzie' as you so quaintly put it.

FOXY.. you are a darling arn't you :) no..I'm not hitting on ya.. don't panic. But you do indeed 'ooze' warmth in the nicest way.
I'll keep that in mind when my 'sword' is uplifted and I'm about to slice and dice some enemy who was about to molest you, and just knock him senseless rather than take his head clean off.

You seem to have a difficulty relating 'love' to 'context of principle'. You seem to see good where there is none.... and bless you for that, but without a few warriors to protect you, you'd be swallowed up in the mad scramble for territory mate.

Back2theBible now....

LOVE.. (Foxy territory)
8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

PRINCIPLE. (BD territory) (about 2 verses further on than the above)
13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Yabby
While I don't disagree with everything you said in the post I have to say that removing tariffs has not done much for the price of food even if you account for the drought. The major supermarkets are having a field day removing some of the more popular brands and stocking it with their own imported or OS grown products, while our own farmers suffer. How can using more 'food miles' in transporting food from, say, China be good for us when our own agricultural industry is groaning particularly in the fruit/veg industry.

Locally grown is the way to go - protectionism in some industries is not a bad thing. We also lose control over food safety and health by allowing all manner of foods in - I don't trust the measures that are in place to protect us against pathogens, banned insecticides and insects that might travel into Australia from OS.

I heartily agree with your sentiment that we are becoming victims to consumerism and the young (and others) do expect everything now without adopting some of the frugality of years ago. This is exacerbated by the costs of housing for those new to the market and if a ex-student the exhorbitant HECS debts add to this burden. It will make it much harder to raise a family than it was for us particularly if one parent plans to stay at home (if that is possible at all).

*Locally grown is the way to go*

Pelican, as a consumer you are free to make that decision and buy accordingly.
I certainly don’t buy food from China, for good reasons :)
But everyone can vote with their own wallets.

I had a look in my pantry. Asparagus from Peru, grapefruit from Swaziland,
guavas from South Africa, mangos from Thailand, peas and beans from
Australia. I remind you that Australia is a major food exporter, but we are
good at growing things that can be mechanised, not where there is a high
labour content. With our workers comp, superannuation, payroll tax, etc,
and nobody wanting to do hard yakka anymore, best we do those
things where we have a comparative advantage, with low labour.

Food miles don’t come into it for me. People tell me about those, as they
fly off for their next overseas holiday. Fact is that shipping is an incredibly
efficient way of transporting things. The Kiwis showed that their legs of
lamb, shipped all the way to Britain, were in fact more environmentally
friendly then the local British lamb. Reason being, Kiwi lambs eat grass,
British lambs are stuffed with grains in semi factory farming systems.

Pelican, as a consumer, you forget that you are king. If my local Coles
branch stopped selling Aussie baby peas and baby beans, as I normally
buy, I would soon be complaining to the manager. At the end of the day,
supermarkets have to stock what consumers want to buy, or consumers can
go elsewhere.

Food at the end of the day, is still incredibly cheap. I once saw the American
statistics, its similar here. In the last 50 years or so, its gone from 50% of
the budget to around 10% of the budget. How much food do you eat a
day? A Kg perhaps? At what average cost?

What is expensive is all those processed snack foods, which are full of crap
anyhow. Work it out at cost per kg, you will be amazed. Yet people still
fill their trolleys with them, as they complain about food prices.

You do make some valid points yabby - the consumer is king and when there is choice the consumer speaks but when there is no choice we pretty much get to choose from what is on the self. For example the other day I bought garlic at the local fruit and veg shop and only had the choice between garlic from Argentina and one from an Eastern European country (I forget now which one). I grow a lot of our food where I can but of course in the humble back yard there is only so much room :).

I still hold that locally grown is better all round. This does not mean that some agricultural activities could not be improved like the grain fed lamb in Britain for example.

If a country cannot grow a particular crop because they are in the wrong climate zone then import it or go without, but if it can be grown why not support local industry and farmers? The benefits to the consumer are minimal despite all this free trade. The tin of tomatoes from OS are not much cheaper than, if not equal to the cost of an Australian grown tin tomato despite the cheaper and unmechanised labour. Someone is benefitting but generally not the consumer nor the labour that produced it.

*The tin of tomatoes from OS are not much
cheaper than, if not equal to the cost of an Australian grown tin*

Pelican, I think you miss the point about how the system works.
If it costs 1$ to grow that tin, then right now its being sold
at Coles for say 1.30. Now if there were 300% import
tariffs on tinned tomatoes, the seller would be free to charge
you 4$, as he lacks competition. That’s the problem, with
a small economy like ours, just 20 million, you land up with
lots of little monopolies, who can screw the system. Only
competition can solve that. That’s exactly what we used to
have and it was a disaster. A few people in the “Melbourne
Club” got very rich however, on these monopolies.

So you benefit every day, without even realising it.

As to your garlic, if you want local, then ask your store to
carry it, if you are prepared to pay the price. I read of
a WA family doing very well out of garlic, bought
by people who don’t want imports. Mind you, I think they
are selling it for around 30$ a kg.

That’s exactly one of the reasons why Coles has been
taken over by Wesfarmers. Decisions used to be made
in head office, not always what consumers want. Wesfarmers
let local store managers decide what they carry, so the focus
is back to the consumer being king, which is exactly what good
marketing is all about. You will see huge changes coming up
in Coles stores in the future.

I have no problem with buying locally produced produce, but
I think it should be consumer choice, not Govt compulsion.

If Govts want more local produce sold, they are free to drop
that nasty payroll tax, which is in effect a tax on local production.

Yabby have a look at these links:

http://www.tradewatchoz.org/guide/econ_glob.html

and;

http://www.corporatewatch.org.au/

These sites sum it up better than I could express it.

Also read Naomi Klein's 'No Logo' for an insight into how globalisation, free trade etc does not always produce positive outcomes for poorer countries. This book is heavily biased for sure but makes some excellent arguments if you have the time to read it.

DB,

This is not the first thread wherein you have patronised Foxy. What the...?

FYI, love is not simply Foxy's department. It is supposedly the duty of every Christian, is it not? You post bible quotes regarding love at her with little pat-pat chuckles...she replies by actually living her religion. You treat her as if she is a rather backward child at times, accusing her of "not getting it", and posting little smiley faces ... she responds with common sense.

I asked you once before to check out Paul to the Corinthians in respect to another thread: dig it up again and see if it does not apply to Foxy. And you wonder that you can be thought of as being holier than thou/smug or whatever!

If anyone other than Foxy talks of love you deride them as being lefties, or not true Aussies. Yet the god whom you worship is supposed to be the god of love?

I think most people on this forum have pretty much made up their minds as to which side of the religious divide they are. If, however, there were any waverers, I am almost certain that Foxy, by her example: her kindness, her forbearance, her non-judgementalism, her tolerance and, most of all her love for her fellow beings, would win them over. On the other hand, your constant unkindness to others, intolerance, unconcern, blindness and prejudice, shovelled on with a load of biblical quotes is not much of an adjunct to your proselytising zeal.

Oh, and although I can't speak for Foxy, I would just like to say that if someone were about to molest me and you smote them with your sword I would consider you a murderer, plain and simple. Of course stunning them is the action I would expect from someone who believed " 'Vengeance is mine' saith the Lord."

Ok Pelican, so answer me these questions. Who are the winners and
losers in the globalisation debate?

1. Australian workers, who are paid more then ever before.

2. Chinese and third world workers, who are paid more then
ever before.

3. Consumers who can buy good cheaper goods then ever before.

4. Ex Melbourne Club bosses, who cannot screw consumers anymore
like they used to, so had to find a new way to make a living.

Think about it!

Hi ROmany... err... am I detecting a little 'jealousy' there ?

You spent most of your post talking (whinging?) about my posts to Foxy...

But your last paragraph illustrates why your posts have not evoked similar warmth toward what you say..(from me) though, keep in mind.. in here, I respond to 'posts' not to people. I know as little about you as you do about me, so.. don't read toooo much into posts please.

Yes..if I smote someone about to molest you? We should define 'molest'.
In the real world, if a bloke is coming after you in whatever way, the law is my guide. "reasonable force". You don't shoot a bloke who has no weapon. If he has a gun.. you SHOOT him.. blow his brains all over the pavement... *BANG*... game over! Not that I have one. Now..believe it or not..'that' is 'reasonable force' under the law.
If he is just plain annoying you..and trying to grope you against your will.. then a few strategically placed roundhouse kicks to the thigh or putting him to sleep with a headlock will disable him enough for you to escape and the police to deal with him.

This is about BANKS for goodness sake.. and SPIN... how did it get onto 'you are a murderer if you protect me' ?

Romany.. I can sense the difference between genuine warmth and ideological bleeding heart rigidness. And it's the genuine warmth and patience in Foxy's posts that I respond to. (even though she calls me a useless bigot at times :)

We need the warmth of Foxy's to mellow the 'warrior' in we blokes. But trust me ... she(and you if ur female) would be nothing more than "those your right hand possesses" (with whom Muslim men can have sexual relations) if nobody stood in the way of such people. Life, tragically, involves blood and guts at times.

Now..can we get BACK to the topic at hand please.. BANKS..and SPIN.

Yabby, these are complex issues and tariffs are not perfect mechanisms but is the current system better?

Australian workers are not paid anymore because of globalisation, in fact under WorkChoices many real incomes have decreased. Wages will go up over time but not always in line with 'real' costs of living. Wages have risen in the boom states of QLD and WA but not in the rest of Australia where real incomes have dropped in proportion to living costs including the highest ever level of debt for household mortgages. The % of income now allocated to servicing mortgages is higher than ever before and add to that rising fuel and food prices into this equation.

Asian workers are still exploited compared to the profits made by those companies utilising that labour. Designer shoes made in Indonesia are no cheaper because of access to cheap labour and in fact have gone up so the consumer is also no better off. In the case of all products, designer or otherwise, do we want access to cheaper products to be based on the exploitation of OS labour? Some areas of Africa are being greatly affected by the import of food into areas where local and predominantly self subsistent farmers now have to compete with dumping of cheaper food from other areas too poor to negotiate a fairer deal for their produce. And the cycle continues.

Collusion and profiteering can also be a trait of OS countries exporting to Australia particularly if there is no domestic competition because all of our farmers have gone bust. This is exacerbated by agricultural or farm subsidies which only further aid our OS competitors who might see Australia as a dumping ground for excess produce. Not really a level playing field

I think while companies are beholden to shareholders first and consumers/growers second we won't ever get away from collusion and excess profiteering. Banks are the perfect example.

I am no expert and do grapple with some of these issues. The more I read and listen to other people on issues of economy, the more questions are raised.

Ok Pelican, so explain to me how workers would be better off, paying three
times as much for many consumer goods? What do you think your computer
and printer would cost for instance, if they were made in Australia?

What we can show is that on average, workers real wages are higher then
ever before. I saw a price list of goods twenty years ago, compared to today
and the progress has been amazing. We of course have flawed memories,
which is the real problem.

Designer goods are expensive for a good reason, companies know that
there are plenty of consumers who are dummies :) People will pay
12000$ for a Rolex watch, 5000$ for a Hermes handbag or even
quite a bit extra for a pair of Nikes, for prestige value. If they were
all 20$ at Woolies, there would be no “designer” value, kids would
not aspire to own a pair of Nikes. So you are paying for all the
advertising etc.

Yes, our banks charge heaps, but as Pericles pointed out, most of that
profit goes back into our Super Funds. Workers have over 1 trillion$
in super, enough to buy the whole ASX, so are in fact the owners of
most large Australian listed companies, including our banks.

Our banks are little darlings, compared to US investment banks.
Your local shire might well have been ripped off by them, its going
to be a messy clean up.

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Rubbish-collection-BQRJJ?OpenDocument

Yes, dumped subsidised US and EU agricultural products have caused
all sorts of problems, I agree. That is exactly one of the reasons why
we have a commodity price problem right now. But that does not
mean that the principles of globalisation are a bad thing, just that
the system is abused by those countries and should be challenged in
international courts or whatever.

The fact remains that consumers are the largest beneficiaries of
globalisation and that includes all of us.

"SHOOT him.. blow his brains all over the pavement... *BANG*... game over!" (Quote: BOZO)

This from a former missionary; a so-called Christian!!

You make reference to getting back to the topic...

You made reference to 'pig dog banks'/.....'moron dividing line'.

THIS kind of terminology from a 'man of God'.

You are utterly and completely FULL of hatred for anything or anyone who does not follow your perverse and disgusting logic.

______________________________

Well folks?....if you do ignore this person, AND STICK TO IT;- count me in.

BD,

You are a very, very bent unit.

Ginx,

Count me in,too. Like an idiot I read his last post to me and have been. It gave me a horrible moment of clarification into this person's mind which has disturbed me ever since.

GINX and ROMANY
Ignore 'me' all you like...but you cannot ignore truth.

You picked the last part of my paragraph.. and neglected (probably maliciously) the first part which gave the CONNNNNNtext.

It was.

<<In the real world, if a bloke is coming after you in whatever way, the law is my guide. "reasonable force". You don't shoot a bloke who has no weapon. If he has a gun......>>

I simply gave you what the POLICE have to do on a regular basis.

Yet you criticize this? You have just demonstrated the true hate....the true 'bent'ness..the creepyness which exists between the ears of people who will ignore balance and context simply to score a shallow and baseless 'anti BD point'......

So...should I assume from your remarks that you seditiously disagree with our laws?

by the way..hiding from God behind your imagined 'unholy one' (me) is pure hypocrisy.. its worse.. you brand someone a hypocrite based on illusory and malicious misrepresentation of the facts..then hide behind it ? :) and you call me 'bent' ?

Alessandro Zollo versus the National Australia Bank... Bank Bastardry at it's Best!

"The former builder says he took out mortgage insurance in 1987 but when he attempted to claim it after a workplace accident the bank told him the policy didn't exist and never had"
Kelly Nester: National Nine News
Broadcast Date: 16 Jan 2008

"...Corporate icons don't come any bigger than the NAB...a business worth 50 billion dollars...and for that reason it wields enormous power and influence..."
Frank Pangallo / Channel 7 Today Tonight
Broadcast Date: 6 Apr 2006

http://www.supportzollo.com

Boaz: "FOXY... you did a great job of restating the empty rhetoric which used lots of 'looking at'....'reviewing'.... 'trying' type adjectives.. code for a 'meaningless furrowed brow and glazed eyes'....."

"Looking", "reviewing" and "trying" are not adjectives. They're verbs. Expressed here in the continuous tense. (They could also be gerunds, of course, but they weren't used that way in this particular context.)

Just wanted to clear that up.