The Howard Government told us how low this country's unemployment figures were.

Then, why are there so many young people receiving the dole?

Should young people get the dole at all? And for how long?

If there are jobs out there - why are there still so many on the dole?

Your thoughts please?

Truth is Howard did not tell us anything the figures got twisted.
Some who only worked 15 hours had been said to be in full time work.
The thread however asks a question that needs an answer.
Those who want to work but can not find it should get the dole.
No one else, some do work those 15 hours cash in hand then get the dole.
Some are never going to take a job, some find ways to thieve from the public cash box, if we stop this those in true need may get a living wage.
Hope your health gets better every day foxy you are a good poster thoughtful issues
regards

Work one hour a week and you are employed (ie. not on the unemployment statistics).

You still get the dole unless you earn mega-bucks for that one hour.

Some jobs out there but we have a skills shortage, hence Howard's push for overseas workers. Rudd's policies sound good - hope he can deliver.

In the mean time, competition for cost of goods/services (eg labour) will drive up prices, adding to inflationary pressure/interest rates.

We needed a plan for the future, Howard gave us a plan for the past.

Simple as.

Dear Belly,

Thanks for your kind words. My health isn't good - but I'm not going to give up.

I agree with you - those who want to work should get help. What worries me though is - young kids who seem happy to never work. What kind of a life is that? Where will their self-esteem come from? How will they learn to achieve and appreciate what they have? What kind of a future is that for them?

My hope lies in the current government's education plans and training provisos for the young. Just get them off the dole.

Hi Foxy, I understand you're having a tete'a'tete with Belly and I will butt out if you like, but you raise some questions that others might have something to say about (btw, congrats on your tenacity).

Anyway,

Self-esteem comes from confidence in who they are as individuals. I think they get this primarily from their parents, school teachers and peers (up to age 7 is critical).

Youth/adolescents are under far more pressure than you or I ever dreamed of - think about it, where is it coming from and, why?

A federal election was held a few years ago and our ex-PM stressed "family values" as their mantra. You can see the results of these policies.

The struggle for the almighty dollar, buy, buy, buy - more stuff. I want it and I want it now - a consumerism driven society! Greed is good?

What are we teaching our kids when we have fallen for this?

I think you know the answer, is it too late?

Rudd's plan will help, but please don't put it all on the government, parents must take some responsibility, don't you think?

Nobody should get the dole.
You should get monetary support in the job you want to do.
If you do not want to work you get nothing.
Simple to most (excluding the bleeding heart ignorant) people that want a fair pay for a fair day.
If the input from you is nothing you will get nothing.
Let the parents pay their so-called dole if they want to or maybe actually be a parent.
Pay the wages (call it the dole )for the learners in the job's they want
and if they want a change let them do it (not do this lob and that's it)so we get people in job's they like doing.
Money for nothing is theft is it not ?
Give all a fair go but (bleeding heart rich can f&%$ off)nobody can demand a free ride while bleating about how bad they get it.
One can only command respect not demand it so earn it or get none.
More could be added but maybe i have added enough?

QxA May I? it is many years past but as one survivor of 16 children, the oldest in fact I went to work to feed my siblings.
Bush kids did that, if you wanted work it existed, maybe we are getting back to those times.
But will it be forever? no sorry not ever, you highlight a truth about to day parents do no always care.
Are not always accountable for their own actions or the kids, education should be for life at home too.
Some think I have sold out my childhood social concerns for those who can not look after themselves never!
But every one with a social conscience should know it is outcomes better outcome that matter.
As a trade unionist I find jobs for those who want them, I live in a community that has unemployment.
The best leave home and make it, some are afraid to take that step some are just dole bludgers forever , like mum and dad.
I can not give them casual jobs, on more than $21 an hour.
I can not get them to mow a lawn at twice the going rate.
Or cut a load of fire wood for cash and twice the contract price.
Why should you and I feed them.
Foxy is fighting cancer, let us not forget that, may you get every bit of strength you need my friend and know we are with you all of us every second of every day

Dear Q & A,

I wasn't able to reply earlier because I'd gone over my allowed limit of posts so I had to wait.

Of course I realize just how much it matters to have parents involved in their children's lives. That is something I took for granted, that's why I didn't mention it in the earlier post.

My children are my life. And I've been involved from the very start.

It was while watching a TV program that I saw youngsters with very poor self esteem who simply didn't know anything else but the dole that got me worried. Their view of life was so narrow. That's why I'm hoping that the new government's education program may help.

These kids didn't appear to have parents who were involved in their lives - and perhaps that was part of the problem. We didn't get to find out to much about the kids themselves - it was simply their attitude to the dole that was a worry.

Dear Belly,

Bless You, You Dear, Dear Man. I don't want to get personal or embarrass you, but to me since the very first time I began reading your posts you've been a pillar of strength of wisdom. Like a good solid oak, you've withstood so much, yet you're still standing. You give me hope. Thank-You.

I know that I tend to chant "education" "Education", "Education" like it was some bloody mantra, but in my experience it is the basic solution to so many problems.

We now have a situation where some kids at school leaving age are from third generation dole families. The question of self-esteem is pertinent here: but if both one's parents and grandparents - the authority figures - have never worked where are these kids going to get a work ethic and self esteem from?

I vehemently agree that schools should take a more holistic approach to education and tackle the kids...but the parents need guidance as well. Eighteen year old parents (I know of many even younger) are ill-equipped to pass on positive life lessons (especially those concerning birth-control!) and this goes even more for those whose parents in turn were teenagers. I tend to think that adult education classes on everything from hygiene to nutrition to civic responsibilities are every bit as necessary as these same lessons are in schools.

I think there should only be a 12week period per year where any person that is in dire need of money can access welfare payments.

Employers use to get a $7500 tax incentive to train an unemployed person in a job role. Now it is network agencies that get $7000 if they can find a long-term unemployed person a job position (they are not real interested in finding jobs for the short term unemployed people).

Employers should be given incentives to take on extra staff, instead of extra expenses of putting on new staff. (workcover, public holidays paid by the government, etc)

People who cannot find a job should be given training incentives in TAFE or other learning institutions.

They need to put the word "Trade", "Trades Person / Tradesman / etc" back into the award. Under the current award there is no specifications for a trades person, only an apprentice (which is now certificate 3 instead of diploma level). There is not much incentive to become a trades person when there is no such thing.

Instead of money being handed out freely, there can be food vouchers to pay for food and rental vouchers to help accommodation needs. If they are paying off a $40,000 car over 5 years and spending 2 years on the dole, they not receive welfare for luxury items, only needs (schooling, medical, and living (home & food)).

There are circumstances where young girls and young men are living in shared housing (upto 8 young people (16/17 year olds) per house) and all receiving $350 to $480 each per fortnight (around $3840 tax free per fortnight) against their parents wishes. Majority of these circumstances I would think work out in a negative way and the young girls learn to depend upon welfare for a long long time. Its sad, and it is the system of unemployment, it needs to be broken.

I have always been told that you get bugger all for free, but in Australia it seems you can come here and live a life of luxury with compliments of the hard working people.

Foxy,
I am sad to here your not feeling well. And I'm not happy with some of the things I've said to you. So from the bottom of my heart I apologise for any rudeness or sadness I may have caused you.
I'm passionate about our great country and dont want to see it go the way of the UK. So keep up the good fight, I dont mind your posts even though I reckon your a lefty Ha Ha. Scotty xo
Its not personal!

As one whos been on the bones of may arse more than once, I think everyone should be given a second even a third chance on the rockin roll. People get down on thier luck for a variety of reasons and whos to make the decision of who the bludgers are and who are not.

However if you come to this country to live on welfare, you should be turned around and booted up the arse back to where you came from, because we have plenty of bludgers here without importing them.

Judging from one or two comments it seems that the feeling persists that the majority on the dole are those who are from low income families, are unskilled, bludgers, or con-artists.

Things have changed a lot I think, since people made those judgements and set them in stone in their minds. The unemployed are University lecturers, ex-business owners, corporate employees - you simply cannot tar everyone with the same brush. Yes, of course, the problems I spoke of with 3rd generation dolers apply to some...but this stigma of the "undeserving poor" is just untrue as a blanket observation

We hear constantly of accountants who have been caught ripping off their firms..but don't claim all accountants are immoral. We are told of developers who rort the system... but don't want to stop people becoming developers. We don't tell politicians they can only serve for twelve weeks because some of them have been caught out indulging in criminal behaviour.

No dole after 12 weeks? Why? Who is going to magically wave a wand and leap in and offer employment in the twelfth week that wasn't available in the eleventh? Are we destined to go and live in cardboard boxes under bridges like the growing thousands in America? For the sin of losing our jobs/marriages/health/safety or whatever?

Why assume that everyone who can't find a job doesn't want to work? I worked continually, laboriously and time consumingly when I was on the dole: for a Government Department, in conjunction with psychiatric staff,and running a safe house and advisory centre for kids in trouble AND made documentaries, interviewed and petitioned parliamentarians and gave public lectures...all for no pay but to "earn" my government subsidy. Considering the expertise brought to these jobs and hours of overtime it was THEY who were getting the better deal. I am not saying this to puff out my chest and say Oh what a good girl am I. I am pointing out that I am not alone: hundreds of volunteer positions, advisory positions, outreach programmes, assistance schemes and more rely exclusively on "dole bludgers"

Dear Romany,

The points you raised are very valid. Of course not everyone on the dole doesn't want to work. And everyone's circumstance is different.
However my main concern was as I mentioned earlier - the youngsters who I saw on TV, who really didn't want to work but felt they were intitled to be supported by the government. That was what concerned me. They were not even interested in looking for work at all.

Dear Scotty,

Thank you for apologising to me, I appreciate it very much. And I'm sorry too if I offended you in any way. I didn't mean to.

Another easy answer to a hard question. The government should scan all school leavers, and if the child is not going to make it, the armed forces will soon snap them out of there unworldly thoughts.
Think about this! They leave year ten. They are given the choice of NO dole or a four year trade in what ever field they choose, with the best training in the world. And when they come out!, do you still think they will be worst off or better off! Its all win with this and not to mention a cure for the skills shortages in Australia.

Evo,

I can assure you the ADF dont want anymore dropkicks than they already have.

For starters where do you think all these magical trades people will materialise from to train these little gems? Mining pays near double what the ADF offer.

If the government started pushing dropkick kids that would otherwise be on the dole onto the ARMY, (RAME) trades people would be out the door that quick the Gov't of the day would need to bring back conscription to keep thier vehicles going.

Trade schools are the go, if they dont make it there well there are plenty of fruit picking oppurtunities where you can easy make 50-60 grand a year. Its not all bad.

Yes! I see your point. But at least its a starting point.

Foxy -
My second post was not addressed to you so I should have specified that fact. I'm sorry.

As to the kids you saw on t.v? My first post was in answer to that. I've worked and lived with many of these kids and in most cases the attitudes they hold (as with many of us) are inculcated by parents. Even if they are not actually on the dole themselves the ever widening gap between the haves and the have nots is bitterly resented (not unnaturally)by the have-nots.

Unfortunately we now live in a society in which a person's value appears to be measured by their possessions and life-style. Those who can't compete in these stakes feel rejected by what t.v. and media tells them is the norm and their self-esteem sours to anger, bitterness and hopelessness. I guess we are all pretty well aware that statistics show lower levels of both mental and physical health, shorter life-spans and higher suicide rates amongst the socially disadvantaged - and these kids know it too.

These factors, in many cases, lead to kids growing up with the feeling that, literally, the world owes them a living.

The reason I keep on chanting my mantra of Education, education, - as much for the adults as for the kids - is because I have seen programmes initiated overseas where this really does work. It seems a practical way as well to utilise all those educated, talented people currently on benefits.

Creating positions for them to use the skills that are currently being wasted fruit-picking, washing dishes or scrubbing toilets (I have actual case-histories in mind as I mention this) would, I am convinced, increase their self-esteem and employ them meaningfully, while the effects on those whom they would potentially be helping would go a long way towards turning round the lives of chronic dole recipients and their children.

Of course its not a magic wand but it is at least a suggestion

Romany you may have an answer to more problems than unemployment education.
It is the answer to almost every problem the world has not false education true understanding education.
Now 12 weeks or forced into the army? come the second is so wrong, do we condemn the unemployed to possible die for us?
Conscription based on lack of work? socio economic
background?
In one of my posts I spoke of three types of unemployed ,one was country kids to afraid to leave for the city's.
They exist, how do we supplement an employer that does not exist? some country towns have 4 homes and no jobs at all.
We are short of workers we do need to bring some in but we can find a better way to help our unemployed.
One generation of a true of value to the community job, not the dole would change much for the unemployed.
We already did it.
Once maybe still in some areas council jobs went to those who could not find a job , so did DMR rail jobs in the bush much more governments jobs, not known not spoken about but still true.
Such a job for real wages could be only half a weeks work leaving plenty of time to look for a full time one.
A training for and help to get a foot on the ladder, why not?

Fifteen years ago Australians picked the fruit and vegetable crops in this district. Now there are insufficient young people in Australia either willing or trained to do hard physical work and willing to follow the work around the country. One of my sons did such itinerant work for 4 years, working in every State and found it a great education in the school of hard knocks. Now he is an IT specialist, but since the day he left school he was always able to find employment.
Now every summer/autumn season South Korean backpackers come to harvest the crops. The men have all done 2 years military service and are accustomed to hard work. If these overseas workers, with limited language skills can find work, why indeed are there so many young Australians not filling these jobs. Why does the Australian government need to encourage foreign workers?

dole is a moveable feast - well at my age as a Claytons Veteran of 63

it is a payment of $250 pw and Howard was master of changing it to suit the ballot box, eg age pension, disability pension, burn out pension etc

In my case by the approved method of Ministerials I simply shamed govt into getting "it", by threatening to contest in court the total descrimination

1. if I was female I would be on age pension already

2. if I was one of the 25% Nashos who bribed their way to Vietnam [ie jumped the queue over regulars for the War Service Home] I would have got aged pension at 60 [as well as the Home]

so I just go in too hard basket - well in fact I am approved mature age volunteer, supported by Costello's temporary love of volunteers initiative

We all should be entitled to 3 years of unemployment benefits for the total of our existence, then cut off. Anything else can be covered under disability pensions.

what amazes me is any taxpayer worrying about a few dollars going to the needy when it seemed everyone turned a blind eye the Costello's own dole system for him and pig mate like Howard robbing taxpayer of $60 billion to fund HIS unfunded super at some 20 times the dole

eg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLRg1U4h-2Y

but who are the unemployed?

a quick google says in round figures nearly 500,000 unemployed and 350,000 are Child Support Agency victims, so 70%

firstly these were not low income workers but doctors, engineers rocket scientists etc, but you dont need to BE a rocket scientist to understand why they are on dole

you earn 100 grand but after CSA COAT Deem & Destroy and normal tax you take home 5 grand, so you go on dole and take home 10 grand [plus do a bit on the side]

the taxpayer never hears of this $16 billion loss to them as family law is no go area, and Howard never worried as it made thousands of "jobs" for lawyer mates at CSA COAT SSAT OPC etc and supposedly got the female vote by eg the "chase deadbeats to their grave initiate"

well seems he and Brough miscalculated that one as both lost seats, ie the victims outnumbered the female voters who were meant to be impressed

so Howard mistake was he should have abolished vote for those on dole as part of "workchoices"

but he just went out with a bang - see http://www.ridrodent.com

That last post did not lurch away from the thread it ran!
And yet the subject is important, most of us know if we do not give those who are greedy not needy the dole we can do much better for those who truly need it.

Anybody with a Tax File Number and wishes to apply for whatever reason. No tax file number no dole for freemen, its in their best interest to keep the slaves alive, they have always got some role for you in the community, its purely a commercial decision.