Are the Liberals imploding?

On the eve of John Howard presenting to the National Press Club another scandal rocks the party. It seems one after the other.

Then to top it off ... it's a chaser style prank! Well, if that was the case wouldn't the joke would have been more obvious.

It's a shame that rascist remarks towards a fledgling community within Australia are considered a harmless prank.

Does this further prove our "multiculturalism" ideal is just that - aspirational rather than reality?

I'm sure the fundamental supporters of Labour and Liberal will give the obvious response ... but how does this affect the campaign?

Will this sway the swinging voter? And which way?

Cori I would not have started a thread on the same subject if I had known yours was on the way, see fear tactics in Australian politics.
However it is my honestly held view both party's have in past elections used American style fear and loathing tactics along with lies.
This election[ I am a card carrying member of the ALP] has seen a new low, a one sided low from a party already defeated.
How could they not know we Australians are sick of lies and fear tactics?
How could they not understand we are not going to listen to it?
John Howard Sir, until workchoices you had the keys to the lodge welded to your key chain, yes some like me had much to dislike you for but our voice was just background, it now is time to go with grace mate, well about 6 months past that date.
Your national press club denial was much needed but not convincing, already we are hearing it was a Labor set up?
Lies Sir sell cars! but more often for the dealer down the road not the lie teller.
I just can not stop from humming a tune , it is in my thoughts all the time by by by by Johny good by, and good riddance.

A prank?

It would only be a prank if it was intended to be discovered for what it was.

I think this is a prank in the same way that kids overboard was a practical joke and a similar event happened in another electorate last time.

It is, however, funny - considering the exquisite timing.

The Rodent is fond of reminding us that "changing the Government will change the Country".

Exactly.

Maybe this is what the polls are telling him. More and more people are dissatisfied with what this society is turning into and want a change - any change.

I think that this tawdry episode exposes two things about the Liberals: their utter desperation and their racist underbelly.

Howard himself has said he doesn't believe the claim that it was a joke. How the supporters thought it could help the Liberal party is beyond me. I think it is a sign of genuine desperation. The more radical supporters are starting to say what they really think. They've been winning so long they have forgotten how to lose gracefully.

I agree with Freedriver that Liberals seem to have lost touch with the electorate.

Just based on this strawpole, it appears a common theme that Australians are sick of this style of politics and its outputs (the Tampa, Iraq war, control of senate).

I wonder if a change of leadership when Costello challenged earlier this year would have changed the "potential" result? After all, there seems to be resignation or absolute optimism that Labour will win 16 seats this Saturday against Howard, would a Rudd - Costello battle have been the same?

Karen Chijoff (Liberal Party's candidate for Lindsay) is either naïve or representative of the desperation afflicting the Howard/Costello Liberal Party.

Are the actions of her husband, the retiring Liberal candidate's husband and a senior Liberal Party official typical of the fear and scare campaign that the Liberal Party so fiercely denies they are engaging in?

Mr Howard said the written apology by Gary Clark (husband of retiring Liberal MP, Jackie Kelly) and sent to Liberal Party NSW director Graham Jaeschke this morning, stated that “Ms Chijoff had been unaware of the pamphlet.”

Mr Howard says; “I have been informed, and verily believe, that the candidate had no prior knowledge,” Mr Howard said.

PIGS FLY too.

Do you think Karen Chijoff would not have been aware of her husband’s night-time clandestine escapades?

Do you think Greg Chijoff would not have told his wife what he and Jackie Kelly’s husband and Jeff Egan (a member of the NSW state Liberal executive) were up to?

Jeff Egan has rejected any claim of involvement, but today a journalist at Prime Minister John Howard's final election speech, said during question time that Mr Egan had indicated the pamphlet was authorised.

Jeff Egan says he has “been falsely accused of distributing unauthorised material,'' and “categorically denies distributing any unauthorised material. I intend to clear my name.''

Mr Howard also said today that a partner in a marriage should not be held accountable for the other spouse’s indiscretions. This is admirable.

BUT, one has to question whether it is only her husband's indiscretion or whether this is typical of an evil regime desperate to hang onto power, at any cost.

No prank Corri, a hopeless and presumably criminal act. It seems to be the last ditch act of those who don't want to accept the message of their own polling.

Is it really any worse tho' than Labors dishonest "nurse, nurse..." add that misrepresents nurses employment?

Let's not be too holier than thou- neither side could win this argument.

Dear Corri,

No, this definitely was not a prank. They were not expecting to be found out. But it just illustrates how pathetic they are. Let them stand on their record indeed. On asylum seekers, the 'children overboard affair,' their detention centers, their racist attitudes towards Aboriginals, the list goes on.

They have nothing new to offer the people of Australia - so they resort to fear and scare tactics in the hope that we're stupid enough to fall for them. Well, guess what? Nobody believes the lies anymore!
And come 24th November - the landslide will drown their party!
Hopefully for decades to come!

I fear this debate is far too one sided ... are there none that would stand up for the Liberal government? Though Palimpsest at least offers a balance, that neither party can claim holier than thou.

Foxy ... decades! That may be a little harsh.

Should the government have sacked Chijoff and gone into spin mode? They may have saved face as a party ... especially based on Q&A's remarks that Greg Egan plans to save face (is Egan part of the David Clark / religious right set?)

So, for those of the left persuasion ... what if the roles were reversed, we were in Bennelong and it was Maxine's hubby that got caught ... what should have been done to rectify this? (Ignoring of course that this may be indicative of a wider culture rather than a one off event).

Dear Corri,

A little harsh? Yes, perhaps... (make it one decade).

As for Maxine's husband pulling a similiar stunt? It wouldn't happen.
She would have married an intelligent bloke!

Dear Corri,

Sorry, I forgot to answer your question ... What should be done to rectify this?

John Howard should sack the woman whose husband was responsible...
She knew full well of what he was going to do, but did not expect him to get caught. Now, she should pay the consequences.

But, of course that's not going to happen. It will somehow be justified(as it always is) with Mr Howard and his team.

perhaps the deeper issue is the intelligence and character of politicians. you wouldn't dare hand your power of attorney to such people, yet you are content to hand over power to run the country.

maybe the deeper-still issue is the ignorance and servility of the electorate.

Thanks Foxy, I am yet to decide on my vote (having the opportunity to vote for the first time due to my recently acquired citizenship) - though am swinging more one way than the other I have to admit. But I am absolutely with you on the way to rectify ... they should have sacked the sitting candidate and Jacqui Kelly. Taken a strong stand on what can only be described as criminal behaviour - or at best, behaviour not befitting of people running the Liberal party.

When it comes to marriage, I think there was a parallel drawn with Kevin Rudd's wife and her business interests affecting Labour's decisions? So in this case the marital situation mattered, but now it doesn't ...

Now the Labor Party would not be involved in dirty tricks,would they?

Don't you love the high almighty Labor supporters who see their sacred party as being the only one to hold the high moral ground.
No mention of how Cronulla was seen soley as a the fault of anglo racists,when in fact the locals had been putting up with racial abuse from Lebanese Gangs for decades.That episode was a shameful manipulation of a community under seige by these thugs and the left wing media and Iemma made the Local Cronulla people scapegoats.What a farce!

The "New Progressives" of Julia Gillard's ilk are the same old socialists who will destroy our economy as they have done before.

Dear Arjay,

Just a little something to 'lighten' things up ...

Men who think they know it all are a pain in the neck to those of us who really do (smile).

And, what's the difference between a politician and all other men?
Honesty.

Actually Arjay, that was a very apt summary of conservative persuasion techniques.

Boo! Socialists! Lebanese! Economy! WhoOoOOo!

Corri, I asked some serious questions, for all to consider. Do you really think the Howard/Costello camp would answer them … in a reasoned and rational way – judge for yourself?

DEMOS is right – there is a deeper issue about the “ignorance and servility of the electorate.”

Corri, you say this thread is far too one-sided, but do you really think we can expect anything more?

At least Arjay gives an attempt to justify the actions of the Howard/Costello machine.

Problem is, there are intransigents out there that will deny anything that casts dispersions on their belief system – it seems they have an inability to differentiate truth from fiction, right and wrong - as the Liberals have so clearly demonstrated (Howard/Costello would be spitting chips that Kelly/Chijoff were caught out and now are distancing themselves of course).

People stuck in the past accuse others of adopting the “high moral ground” when they feel their own stance is threatened by the morals they themselves purport to advance – they are hypocrites and sadly, don't know it.

We can see an example here on this thread. We see it elsewhere; on the AWB scandal, Tampa and “children overboard”, climate change, work “choices”, Telstra sale, Senate control, human rights, national security, Iraq war, indigenous and racial issues, Bushism, auditor general's report, interest/inflation rates, fear, fear, fear, and so on.

The recalcitrant claim “reds under the beds” and invoke negativity in the minds of the willing.

Excuse me Corri/Foxy, these people’s brains are stuck in the sand and refuse to live in the 21st century – deny and delay is their mantra, power and control is their aim.

Foxy, you’re nice – and if it wasn’t so serious, I could lighten up.

TRTL, you have lightened me up … but,

I am as mad as hell and refuse to take any more – I AM OUTING … I VOTED LIBERAL LAST TIME … NOT THIS TIME!

The Australia mind can only be the most patient and third most friendliest people in the world. But the Lebanese boys of the seventies and eighties and still going on Yesterday, faced fascism and cruelty under the hand of convict offspring. So they fought back the best way they could find. They wanted equality like so many more. But the Australian mind sometimes act's like this." ON your marks! Get ready! and go!" And if you haven't got it by the third time, POW! And upper cuts can be served with tomatoes and beetroot. And when the BBQ was over, all the people found their place, and balance has been was found.

Nice story. but read this! VOTE LABOR! Cause I think the government has said quietly in the beer gardens, "Don't worry"! Its all about the ying and the yang, its your turn now, and I expect that swimming pool and BBQ in place, and in order, when you get your pay rise.

Believe it or not, its the mind of a politician. The system runs its self. It doesn't matter who's in charge! You or I can run this country!
If you get stuck, just pass it on too your adviser and problem is over.

The Moral of the story is, The politician always wins.

I saw Philip Ruddock on Lateline. He said he'd been told that 3 Liberal Party members had been expelled, but he didn't know who they were. When pressed he said "I don't know who they were. I didn't ask. Nobody told me."

Does Philip Ruddock really believe that every voter is A CONGENITAL IDIOT?? No wonder politicians are held in such low esteem, when they take us for fools.

Arjay,
Decades of racism at Cronulla? Really?

How many decades - two, three, four, five, six?

Does the left-wing media you accuse include people like Alan Jones too?

Were all those rioters local residents or were there a few "outsiders" there as well?

Then again, in your universe, maybe that whole incident was just a harmless prank too.

Arjay, Oppositions can most easily claim the high moral ground, they don't have to account for their actions in the same way as the incumbents do.

But there is a strong tendency in Oz to allow the Left a sense of humour and a lot more latitude than the conservatives. Garretts line about changing Labor policies post election was broadly accepted as a throw away line and a bit of a joke. Had a Lib said this, this would be seized on as proof positive of their evil intent etc etc.

Remember too the earnest discussions had about Keatings strength of character and the virtues of changing one's mind when Labor junked the L.A.W. tax cuts? Howard would be crucified for anything similar. He is still being vilified for 'never,ever'; despite subsequently going to an election with the |GST as his central policy!

The Cronulla demonstration/riots indicate the level of failure of policing prior to the events.Conflict between Westies and the locals in beach suburbs is nothing new, but had been escalating in Cronulla for a few years. The abject failure of Maroney? and Iemma to provide effective policing contributed greatly to the troubles.

Palimpsest now proves my point, twisting and spinning to the irreverent believers with the aplomb of Howard himself.

BTW, I am still voting Liberal in the STATE elections.

The blinkered minds of Palimpsest and Arjay can’t seem to distinguish the difference between the two … the Liberal steam-roller have caught them hook, line and sinker.

Well To be honest both parties are dudding the public.
Why not let the debate also cover how Australians feel about Muslim coming here in the droves?
I mean why not?
Its just like live exports.

You dont hear Rud or Howard addressing it despite the fact they KNOW its one of the most political issues following them around- quite literally.

Its very clear to me despite who is behind this that its a given it wouldnt go down well with the public.

So there you are- The real question we should be asking is why dont the Australian public have the right to say- Who will come and who they want to come and if they want more Mosques.

So in fact, neither side is addressing the real issue behind this.

Pretty rude if you ask me. People DONT WANT MORE MOSQUES. You can say it. Why shouldnt they be free to say what they DONT WANT in THEIR subburb!

I always voted Howard but not this time.

I will vote for the Greens to give them power in the senate to stop live exports and reopen abattoirs to supply work in regional areas.

Neither Rudd or Howard give a SH about cruelty to animals.

As for the outcome.
I think the polls are wrong. I think people in QLD will vote for Howard.

I base that on the fact we know Rudd better than others and hes really upset farmers years ago by stopping the water projects years ago..

That wasnt smart and if nothing else farmers have basic common sense so they wont want a bar of him.

Of course the younger uni kids might think its hip to get rid of the old man.
However even they are starting to understand our health and hospitals are a result of Labour and it would be a disaster

This bogas flyer thing is a good example of why I am no longer involved with any political party. Despite all the hard work and expenditure there always seems to be some idiot that unthinkingly stuffs things up. All parties seem to have such fools. At times one would think they are deliberate acts and they are working for ones opponants. I do not blame their opponants from exploiting these stupid errors.

Sometimes the gross errors are from the party leaders and other times from key people or rank and file party members. One would think they are on dope to act so stupidly.

Make no mistake all parties suffer from the same stupidity. There are plenty of examples from all parties.

There are allegations that some 13 Labor party candidates did not resign from public service jobs before nominationg as candidates. It would not surprise if this was correct, a fundamental error. If so any of those that win at election could be dismissed. By-elections would have to be held and it could cost the elected government the election. Like the bogas flyers, there is no excuse for such stupid fundamental mistakes.

I will no longer put my time, effort and money forward to have it blown to nothing because of stupid words or acts.

Question: Describe the outcome if a Liberal Party member had not tipped off the ALP that this racist pamphlet was being distributed in Lindsay?

Question: How did the Liberal Party members come to think distributing such a pamphlet would benefit them and damage the ALP?

Question: Apart from scale, how does the racist pamphlet scam in Lindsay differ from the top level Liberal concoction of the Tampa and children overboard scams?

Anyone got any answers?

I've been fascinated with the range (and tone) of responses.

The links to Cronulla riots, the discussion of Labours possible non compliance to nomination rules, the general dissatisfaction with politicians.

Then, FrankGol's post stole my thunder - the question of why would the Liberal party leak this information?

Funnily, our wider perception of politicians is remarkably high, with both Howard and Rudd polling very well in terms of their approval rating. Beyond the leaders there seems to be a chasm in both parties.

One question that hasn't been really answered is will this affect the wider electorate, specifically the swinging voter.

To PeopleAgainstLiveExports&IntensiveFarming, I hope that you are not presenting a view held by the majority ... after all I am an immigrant, albeit British, but all the same I've arrived and set up my home in Australia. Many others, regardless of persuasion have done the same ... in fact the further we trace back the wider the net is cast.

That said, wave after wave have encountered this mentality of "we don't want you". This may be best saved for another thread ... but I'm saddened by this sentiment.

Very good questions FrankGol and no doubt you have answers yourself – please enlighten us.

Here is another question;

Does anyone really believe the Liberals are so stupid (when you look at the credentials of those involved) regardless that they were “sprung”?

It appears the powers that be are again trying to drive a wedge into the campaign just prior to Election Day – a *fear* wedge based on race and religion. Just look at the response from PALE and Arjay.

These tactics helped Howard previously and they may yet help him again.

Q&A, Global warming and our imminent demise are sold to us by fear of the future. The unions and Labor have used fear in their IR campaigns. The Libs. use fear our of being overrun, fear of unions. Not pretty at all.

9-10 months ago Philip Adams happily told us of his knowledge of Labor electoral role rigging and of the dead voting, on LNL. He thought it was funny. Remember to vote early and vote often

Your turn Corri, it’s your thread after all. Can you posit answers to the above?

It appears not too many others are prepared to confront the issues or answer these questions – this is the scary bit.

As we have seen, some think the sky is falling and the reds are coming - typical last century thinking with no vision, for Australia or humanity.

Dear Corri,

It's important to remember Australia before the wave of migration. It was dull, self satisfied and joylessly conformist. Not simply null and boring, but nullarboring. Not merely mindless, but lobotomised.

I'm talking about the period after World War II, when my parents came to this country. They were 'displaced persons.'( My family ancestry is
Russian) Having lost their country and social position to communism. They discovered the most remote, ethnocentric, inward-looking and changeless society on earth.

I was born in Australia, and when I was growing up, because our family name wasn't Smith or Jones, my playmates didn't have names like, Georgina, Carol, or Anne.

My parents told me about the atrocity stories that were being told about the Japanese and how somewhere in the back of everybody's mind, was the threat of the teeming millions of Asia, otherwise known as the Yellow Peril. As a neighbour pointed out to my mother, "Thank God Australia's coastline is surrounded by so much water"

So of-course whenever 'new' migrants come along. Anyone that is 'different' they're going to be a 'problem' in a society that sees homogeneity as not only desirable but mandatory. There will be tension between the 'locals' and the ethnic groups, not to mention between and within the ethnic groups themselves.

However, what I'm hoping for is that in the end, through interaction and discussion, we'll sort the problems out. That in the process we'll have a more vigorous, exciting Australia. That people will begin to suspect that the world doesn't end sharply a few miles beyond Sydney Harbour or St. Kilda beach.

Frank Gol,
Get your facts straight Frank. There was no concoction about the Tampa incident. The Tampa went to the aid of a sinking vessel and took all on board, then headed to the closest port, in Indonesia, that could accomodate her. While enroute a number of those rescued entered the bridge and made threats to force the ship to change course for Christmas Island. This was a hyjacking. The Tampa Captain gave evidence to an inquiry to this effect.

Our Government rightly decided that we should not be intimidated by this action and refused the Tampa permission to land those rescued and sent our defence forces to intervien. Eventually those the Tampa had rescued were off loaded onto an RAN vessel and taken to Nauru.

The conduct of those rescued was appalling, when they should have been most gratefull that they were saved. I understand they used faeces to desecrate the RAN ship and males exposed and mastabated infront of female crew while enroute.

I believe that none of these people should have been allowed into this country and in fact some should have been tried for hyjacking.

Had the Tampa been allowed to go to Indonesia as planned and word got around about the rescue, the sinking of the SIEV X might never have occurred.

deeper issue? only if you're relaxed and comfortable about the nation being in the hands of a few hundred people whose character would disqualify them from membership in the motor traders association. indeed, many would be thrown out of the east l. a. brotherhood of pimps, dealers, and muggers- for moral turpitude.

if you think labor is any different, you will be continually disappointed. state labor governments are populated by the same amoral snakes.

if you want good government, like good 'anything', you have to do it yourself and/or watch it done.

Dear Banjo,

Just for the record - in 2002, flags bedecked Australia's tabloids as troops, led by the local SAS, joined the Americans for the 'war on terrorism' in Afghanistan. No one knows what they were doing there; Australia was not at war with any country. But it was at war with refugees heading for its shores.

Prior to September 11, 2001 the heroic SAS was assigned to prevent traumatised men, women and children from landing, then steered them to remote Pacific islands (where many contracted malaria). The Prime Minister and at least one of his ministers have been caught lying about 'refugees throwing children overboard.'

A scandal relating to the circumstances surrounding the deaths of 350 men, women and children in a vessel whose unseaworthiness was known to Australian Defence Intelligence and the Royal Australian Navy, which did nothing to save them.

Many of those who have succeeded in reaching Australia receive treatment which, for a society proclaiming humanist values, beggars belief. Imprisoned behind razor wire in some of the most hostile terrain, in what, by any definition, are concentration camps, run by an American company specialising in top-security jails (profit: $387 million a year),the refugees, in their desperation, have resorted to
suicide, starvation, arson and mass escapes. One study reveals that most had experienced terrible suffering before fleeing their homelands. Of thirty-three inmates questioned, nineteen had been tortured, nine had lost, through murder or 'disappearance,' at least one immediate member of the family...

Possible answers to some questions.

Question: Describe the outcome if a Liberal Party member had not tipped off the ALP that this racist pamphlet was being distributed in Lindsay?

(a) Some racists might have given the ALP their vote.
(b) The Liberal Party may have gained some votes of people opposed to racism.
(c) Worst, racists would have been encouraged in their madness.

Question: How did the Liberal Party members come to think distributing such a pamphlet would benefit them and damage the ALP?

(a) The ALP would have been defamed but see (a) above.
(b) See (b) above.
(c) They simply didn’t think it through.

Question: Apart from scale, how does the racist pamphlet scam in Lindsay differ from the top level Liberal concoction of the Tampa and children overboard scams?

(a) There’s no difference. In today’s “Age” Shaun Carney argues that in 2001, John Howard, aided by Philip Ruddock, showed that racism was ‘good business’ for the Liberals. They set the pattern for their underlings to emulate.

(b) Banjo tells me to get my facts straight about Tampa, then goes on to tamper with said facts. Read “Dark Victory” by Marr and Wilkinson, Banjo, or the recent biography of Howard (July 2007) which showed that Howard was told by his Attorney-General's Department that refusing the asylum seekers entry into Australia would breach international law, but that he did so to gain public support in the then upcoming election. Or if books are too hard, try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Tampa

Corri asks: Why would the Liberal party leak this information?

(a) See all of the above, but it could have been a sting. There was a disgruntled member with a score to settle with the Liberal candidate or former Liberal member.
(b) Deperation with the polls showing the Liberal campaign in big trouble.

Q&A asks: “Does anyone really believe the Liberals are so stupid…regardless that they were “sprung”?
The answer is I’m afraid, Yes. Thankfully, there was a Liberal member with a conscience.

Q&A, the fact is that factions within the Liberal party either don't want to win this election on the current premise, or believe that the leaking of the Chijoff / Kelly pamplet drop was going to enhance their election chances? I don't believe it's the latter.

So why would elements within Liberal want to lose the election? What factions are at war within the party? As I asked initially, are the Liberal party imploding?

I also agree with many others that the Labour party aren't necessarily any more moralistic. But feel, due to the traditional base of the Labour party, they are more inclusive of other cultures.

Regardless, we will know soon enough whether the majority of Australians are concerned with race, gender and religion. Or do we only care about our hip pocket? I sincerely hope not.

Demos, are you a member of a political party? You say we need to get involved; I guess through this forum we are encouraging debate and interaction. But I agree, if we are to change the political culture then more of us need to be involved. I was inspired a few years back with Stott Despoya, call me naive but there was a change in the electorate around this time - didn't last long, but there seemed a greater interest in Australian politics.

This thread probably becomes irrelevant within 7 - 12 hours when we see the fate of the election. Though it certainly creates a whole new issue that really needs to be brought to light. The Pauline Hansen party was so successful because it tapped into underlying issues (as highlighted by "People Against ..."), there is obviously an increasing polarisation or culture clash between Christians and Muslims - I hope that we don't go the same way as Europe and many other nations where we force fundamentalist Muslims into believing they fight their way into a position within our nation. Like it or not, many of these people were born here and have every right to live here.

Until the results ...

Foxy, I wanted to check my email before I went out to vote and your post just popped up.

There are propagandists on both sides of the fence – it’s the extremists and fundamentalists that humanity has to worry about – not those that would adopt a more convergent or centrist approach.

We have the extremist ‘neo-con’ or ‘New World’ order of Bush and the likes of his puppets, and extremist or fundamentalist religious bodies.

Both use extreme fear tactics to push-poll their adherents, and as we have seen in this election campaign – they are very good at pushing the race/religious hate syndrome. It has happened before and it will happen again. Churches do it, political parties do it – some more so than others.

Unfortunately, ‘white’ Australia is young and has not had the time to truly develop its own identity (cf: our ties to UK pre 1942 and our ties to the US after that).

Corri’s thread has demonstrated somewhat obliquely the divisiveness in our society. Some people want to move forward, some people are stuck in the mud.

The former are optimistic with a vision for the future, the latter preferring to hold tight there warm and comfy fuzzies of the past ... and beware if anything or anyone that might want to change that.

Until we (humanity) are prepared to acknowledge our differences then converge and work together to overcome our common problems, then nothing will ever get better.

This is what has saddened me with the Howard/Costello re-election campaign – they really encapsulate the diversionist philosophy – in the bigger picture, they are short-sighted.

Rudd on the other hand is more visionary and adopts a more convergent or progressive ideology – an ideology that must be adopted if we (humanity) are to live in a more sustainable world.

PS to FrankGol

I agree with you. BUT, there is a school of thought that says this “leak” was carefully concocted.

What say you to this?

PSS: Corri just popped up again … to be continued?

Q&A

You say: "there is a school of thought that says this 'leak' was carefully concocted".

That is feasible, in terms of possible winners and losers from the bogus pamphlet.

I suppose it's possible that the Liberals thought they were on a winner even if they were 'caught' red-handed because it would be an indirect way to bring race back into the election campaign. Andrews tried it with Haneef and banning 'Africans' and failed because he wasn't smart enough.

However, I'm not much into conspiracy theories. Cock-ups are more plausible. It's more realistic to imagine a coterie of Liberals interpreting the mood of the electorate, desperate with the polls showing a slaughter coming up, and dreaming up this ridiculous half-baked fraud. They were shafted by someone with a score to settle or a conscience.

Moreover, if they stage-managed being exposed, it's hard to understand why they would use the husband of the retiring member and the husband of the candidate to do the letter-boxing. They would, more likely, have used nonentities.

What's worrying me is that Ms Kelly (a Howard protege) thought she could get away with representing it as a joke. How dumb is that - whichever way you look at it?

Corri, this thread won’t become “irrelevant” but it will be time to reflect and move on – I look forward to engaging.

FrankGol, look beyond the simplicity of the stupid pamphlet.

I don’t like “conspiracy theories” either, but Frank … conspiracies have and still do occur, whether you/I like it or not.

Consider:
1. Why did Bush go to war in Iraq, against the warnings of the UN Security Council?

2. Why has Howard been a “climate change” sceptic?

Maybe these are topics for new threads?

I have voted (once) and will sit down with my dear one over dinner and then watch the night unfold.

Best wishes Australia, we will need it.

Well as a parting comment I congratulate the Labour party on their win. Like Q & A I've voted and, now, watched the outcome.

I think the wrap up from John Howard and Peter Costello nailed their contribution to Australia over the past decade; there is no denying that the Liberal government has successfully managed Australia's economy.

I think that Australia has come through a strong period of growth and consolidation, but it's time for innovation and renewal - and the Liberals have provided Labour a strong foundation from which to build.

I hope over the next term, or two, Labour can make a difference and reinvest some of Australia's wealth into areas that matter.

I also hope, and guess we'll see this in other threads, that we can gain a greater appreciation for our immigrants and their contribution to all areas of society, not least of which is diversity of opinion.

Thank you for those that have contributed to this discussion, I have enjoyed the repartee.

Corri

Frank Gol,
I do not need to read a book or look up wikipedia in relation to the Tampa incident. I took a lot of interest it the matter at the time and my memory serves me well. My brief description earlier is accurate. Those rescued thanked their saviours by the hyjacking and the forced course to Christmas Island. If the Government gained any electoral advantage from the incident, it was because the vast majority of Australians agreed with the action taken. As stated before I was bitterly dissappointed that the Government relented and allowed those from Nauru into Australia. The tougher stance should have been maintained and some should have been charged with hyjacking.

foxy,
Your post looks as though you lifted it direct from 'Green Left Weekly' or some other credible rag. What you say is bunkem. Decent people would respect those that saved them and would be happy to be set ashore anywhere, not force them to take them to their desired destination. The conduct of these the Tampa rescued was such that I consider them to be a pollutant in our community. Well can well do without them. You try to excuse their conduct by sayin the 'poor soles were traumatised' I say rubbish, these 'opportunists' were simply trying to take advantage of our reputed easy going nature.

In relation to the sinking of their boat and that of the SIEV X, it is ammazing that it went so long before a disaster happened to these unseaworthy and overcrowded boats. Reckless of those to sail in them and totally irresponsible for parents to put their kids to such risks.

It is really Offensive to suggest our defence personal did not look hard enough. Or suggest they are racist. They have a world wide reputation for being compedent and professional. These boats were a dissaster waiting to happen.

Frank Gol and foxy,
Did you hear Kevin Rudd say that his Government would turn back the boats with asylum seekers.

Thats a direct policy from One Nation and should please you advocates that want to give boat people assisted passage.

Banjo

What are you? Spinmeister from Central Casting or just a fundamentalist in denial? You refuse read studious, objective accounts of the Tampa fiasco - your memory 'serves you well' because you 'took a lot of interest it the matter at the time'.

You may not read, but other posters might. Therefore I recommend David Marr's "His Master's Voice: The Corruption of Public Debate Under Howard", (Quarterly Essay, 26, 2007). Mungo MacCallum also deals with the cover-up and deceit about Tampa ("Girt by Sea: Australia, the Refugees and the Politics of Fear", QA, 5, 2002).

"Such was the debasement of both politics and the media: honesty, ethics and morality -even the simple truth of the matter - were no longer of primary or even secondary importance. All that mattered was the votes" (MacCallum p. 59).

So, Banjo, if you are relying on what the media said at the time, you're probably misinformed as to the facts- as they were. The so-called Tampa hijacking, for example, turns out to have been a Liberal Government lie. The election was looming and they were running out of time.

The lies about SIEV X have been thoroughly discredited by the Senate inquiry. Why do you keep peddling the now demolished line put out by Ruddock et al?

Yes I did hear Kevin Rudd say that his Government would turn back the boats with asylum seekers. They would be directed to Christmas Island (note not Nauru) for processing, he said. If Rudd does not treat them humanely I'll be the first to complain.

Did you know that for many years now there are many more asylum seekers and refugees who come by air than by boat? Why has the former Howard Government been so keen to beat the media drums about 'boat people' and nary a word about the 'aeorplane people'?

'Boat people' stories sell because you can get dramatic, scary 'news' footage. What can the TV stations do with an aeroplane landing?

FrankGol,
I stand by my comments in relation to the Tampa and the Siev x as accurate. But Hey, believe it or not there is something we agree on.

There have been many asylum seekers arrive by air, and I maintain all asylum seekers (invaders) shouls be treated the same. No need for lenghty detainment, if they fail UN criteria at first attempt they should be shipped back to their last place of embarking.

There have been allegations, by reputable people, that some have engaged light aircraft to fly from Indonesia to Aus. there are plenty of rural strips and even ww11 airstrips in Northern Aus that could be used and GPS navigation and modern phones Makes contact with mates here easy. I further understand that there has been evidence of quite large aircraft landing at some WW11 airfields, so one wonders what they were bringing in or taking out. The point is that not all asylum seekers (invaders) are poor and destitute.

But I agree, there should not be any difference in how illegals are treated and we should not bend the rules to accomadate them.

Dear Frank
while fully recognizing the 'political' aspect of the various incidents you raised.. Tampa and Siev-X.... if I may offer a perspective on the comment you made:

>>The lies about SIEV X have been thoroughly discredited by the Senate inquiry<<

Now..being the cynic that I am, and reasonably well read on history, and the nature of human interaction, my first question is..."Who was on the committee... who decided its direction... was the outcome predecided in the minds of some members" etc etc etc.

Why do I approach it so cynically? aah.. there is a new 'book' out by 2 Academics in the USA...and its about "The Israel Lobby" and the impact of this lobby being wayyyyyyy bigger than its numbers would suggest. They take the line that the Israel lobby has in fact managed to directly influence US foreign policy, including the 'suggestion' of the invasion of Iraq, to the actual deteriment of US interests.

Now.. putting aside for a moment whether they are right or wrong, or somewhere in between, lets look at how their 'target' the Israel lobby reacted to them.

1/ Op eds condemning them in Jewish controlled media outlets. (New York Times, Washington post)(Mearsheimer in an abc interview yesterday)
2/ Smear campaign where they were labelled 'anti-semitic' (the old faithful)
3/ The New York Sun chased down David Duke (KKK) and 'interviewed' him about how he felt re the book and its topic... needless to say a Jew hating KKK grand wizard, would view such a book 'positively'..and thus.. it came out that "KKK /DUKE endorses Mearsheimer and Walts book" aaah.. 'mud'....dripping down their faces........

The book was so sensitive no publisher in the USA would publish it.....
Then...Abraham Foxman brings out this book: "The Deadliest Lies: The Israel Lobby and the Myth of Jewish Control"

Myth? :) Mearsheimer and Walt might have a thing or 2 to say about that.

Bottom line... media.. politics... I hardly think any it is without 'ulterior' motive and that includes the Left perspective on Tampa, Siev-X and the Howard mob

David

Senate Committees have all-Party membership. If one Party thinks the information is being wrongly interpreted, or if they think the Committee is biased, members are entitled to present a minority report.

The reference for this report is:
Senate, Select Committee on A Certain Maritime Incident - Report, Commonwealth of Australia, 2002
http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/Committee/maritime_incident_ctte/index.htm

The members were:

Senator the Hon Peter Cook, WA, ALP (Chair)
Senator George Brandis, QLD, LP (Deputy Chair)
Senator Alan Ferguson, SA, LP
Senator Brett Mason, QLD, LP
Senator Andrew Bartlett, QLD, AD
Senator Jacinta Collins, VIC, ALP
Senator the Hon John Faulkner, NSW, ALP
Senator Shayne Murphy, TAS, IND

As you can see: a balanced membership. There was never any suggestion of bias or cynicism.

Chapter 1 gives a good overview.

The Tampa and SIEV X affairs will go down in history as the deepest pits of the Howard/Ruddock era's cynical manipulation of refugees and asylum seekers for short-term political advantage at the cost of vulnerable human lives.

Very instructive indeed.

Banjo's uniquely impeccable and unbiased memory is a more reliable account of the Tampa incident than those of published and authoritative sources.

Boazy, without any evidence whatsoever, questions the integrity of an all-Party Senate committee.

This is wilful ignorance of the worst order. How do these clowns expect to be taken seriously?

CJ, couldn’t agree more. Frank, I am finding this report fascinating – thanks.

With all due respect, especially to Corri – May I suggest Frank start a new thread on a topic of his choosing.

This one is going off-topic and as usual, Boazy now wants to hijack it to demonstrate he has no other life but OLO, even on a Sunday

David

If you're serious about the truth of these matters - I know Banjo would prefer to rely on his personal 'involvement' and memory - you might like to look at a submission to the Senate Committee by a range of senior members of the Canberra Press Gallery.

They objected with great dignity and passion to the Howard Government's campaign of censorship and misinformation (lies to you) about these matters during the 2001 election campaign. The relevant Government Ministers were Howard, Reith and Ruddock, an unholy trinity of cheats and liars.

Reith was later rewarded with a well-paid sinecure for his skillful lying extended to the waterfront. Howard got another, undeserved term of office (two actually) and Ruddock ( a badge-wearing member of Amnesty International) - well he continues to haunt the Parliament, now as a nondescript Member of the Opposition. No doubt we'll hear from him, hand on heart, when he thinks the Rudd Government is telling porkies.

http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/Committee/maritime_incident_ctte/submissions/sub13.pdf

Frank that is right and all the libs could do to avoid facing their dishonesty was the usual stuff about the economy and call the oppositin socialists.

They got what they deserved at the polls.