The mule is advocating the return to subsistence faruming.

The single thing that enabled civilisation and the release of the majority of humanity from being shackled to the land was the intensifying of agriculture.

200 years ago most people were involved in producing food. Lives were short and miserable. Science, art and democracy were the domain of the privileged few.

Freeing man from serfdom allowed more to concentrate on education, science etc which has lead to the rapid acceleration of science, medicine and other forms of learning.

Permaculture is an indulgence by the rich who know that they won't starve if their crop fails.

Hi rojo

Do you realise developed countries (particularly the largest CO2 polluters, Aust. and US) are in the midst of an obesity epidemic? So, how to solve that... let me think... maybe how about growing your own food? Or ride a bike? Going to the gym is ok, but has no functional purpose outside of fitness.

Those Asian folk moving to the city might be more inclined not to if their lives were a little more culturally and socially enriched. Being a farmer can be very unrewarding and lonely i would imagine, particularly when food is so undervalued in our society. People in cities certainly dont appreciate how much effort (let alone fossil fuel and environmental degradation) it took to get food on their table. Maybe instead of accepting the urbanisation of our planet (only possible through fossil fuel use) we should look to changing social values around food production.

hi democritus
good to see you know exactly what im thinking - i havent mentioned anything about subsistence. I am not advocating turning back time at all. Convenience and luxury are great - i enjoy them every day, they just have their drawbacks. We need to become more balanced, less reliant on coal and oil to provide everyday basics that we could provide ourselves with a little applied effort. Let me clarify the way i see permaculture - in some ways its like practicing a martial art, it has many health benefits for the body, mind and soul, its makes you less reliant on other people, more confident and maybe one day it might get you out of a spot of bother. What are your plans for when the oil runs out?

hi mule, how about eat less, particularly processed foods. Maybe walk to work, school, shops or like you say cycle. Of course those growing their own food are capable of obesity too.
My point is fewer and fewer people wish to spend their time hoeing or hand harvesting, to have fresh produce for only a few months of the year. While a back yard vegie patch is great, it's a different thing to get people to work as the manual labour required for permaculture. It's hard enough to get them to sit in an air-conditioned tractor cab as it is.

I don't know about other farmers, but I find farming very rewarding, though maybe not in a financial sense during this drought. There is something about the profession that seems real, using the sun, soil, water and air to produce something tangible. Knowing that your product is of great importance to society, even if society doesn't. Making a living without ripping people off -though having to fend off those with fewer scruples along the way.

It doesn't have to be lonely, you just have to travel further to catch up with others, and have some spare beds when you have people round.

I suspect fossil fuels have eroded the living conditions of the farming community. Once upon a time, not that long ago, farmers would have been the primary energy source for mankind, that mantle has been transfered to those fortunate enough to control fossil fuel reserves. They've tapped into millions of years worth of energy basically for the cost of extraction. No thoughts of long term sustainability, just go for it.
Perhaps we'll see a major rebalance as oil depletes. Maybe then it will be more profitable to employ people than run tractors and headers.

Hi rojo

Nice thoughts... although im not a farmer, i have worked with plants most of my life and i enjoy those aspects of realness too. Im glad you enjoy your work, even when apparently underappreciated. You are right that society will have to have a rethink about food and other essentials when oil is more scarce. For me permaculture is a way of life to practice now so that in the future we are better equipped to sustain ourselves if we have to. I am certainly not weaned off fossil fuels now and probably wont be for the rest of my life but it is my goal to reduce that reliance over time (particularly when i get some dirt of my own).

Well now, I've noticed some great points from both sides, but where is the argument about FOOD quality! That comes directly from the farmers' "looking after the soils", that means when you take so much out, you've got to put so much back and more! That is the bases of permaculture and to get the highest brix reading of you produce.
If one wants to talk about food, what is meant is what quantity of nutrients exist in a given food.If the quality of the food is what people are meant to eat, for survival or being healthy, is at it's peak then there would be no need to look at chemical reliance as in the past. People with a long history of farming (generations long) will tell you when the switch from natural farming to chem,fertilizers came to be the soils became depleted and this is worldwide I might add.So my argument about non/GM stands, until the present day farmer knows about his soils and what grows and lives below the surface, because that is what only counts for creating real food.