I am here to briefly share a recent occurence that has me even more exasberated about the anger levels in our youth. I read about it in the papers and now I have my own family example to share.

The other night on leaving a party alone (alone a mistake), my unprovoked son snotted one of five trying to take out 'something on someone' for kicks. Hence, the punch on the nose lead to my son being chased 10 blocks, with glass welding youth as at least one weapon and as young as 15 years old on his tail. My son is 20.

My son jumped fences in properties to hide, called the police, who an hour later turned up to where my son's car was busy being smashed up. Caught red handed; busted in action with my son safe at least.

I was horrified to learn of the terrifying experience for my son.

More the level of anger in the young people of today. The 'set to kill' anger that isn't going to abate without masses of energy release on someone of something. Of course the grog and weed are a big part of the picture.

What are we going to do about the youth. I feel parents have to be an example. Where parents have done the job 'right', the rest of the kids are out there exposed and at risk of their lives. Big sigh.

Glad I was a kid of the 70s.

CAKERS... let's ask a different question:

"What is different 'these days' regarding discipline..and the instillment of respect" ?

I can give an answer.. and some people might like to have some fun at my expense over it..but here it is..

SPARE THE ROD..SPOIL THE CHILD.

Which of course is a rather colorful way of saying 'enforce boundaries, use strict discipline'

But trendy psyho-fascists have told us idiotic stuff like 'its all about repressed sexual frustration' etc...or some other gobbldygook.

I've watched it all happen.. from my teenage years in the 60s at tech school.. where "6 of the best" was a very real deterrant, to now..

'you should respect others desire to study and not do anything to hinder them'

at which point I roll around the floor in uproarious and uncontrolled laughter.

yeah...RIGHT.. as IF some pshycho dimwit who has no social conscience is going to follow such quaint ideas ?

Nope.. but I'll guarantee the thought of 6 of the best from "Mr Lee" (at Assy Tech) would have made him think twice about bailing up young Johnny in the coridores and thieving his lunch money or whatever.

Cakers.. our society has 'pulled the plug' on our spiritual life support mate.. we have gone from 'terminally ill'...to 'switch off the life support'....and now we are paying the price.

Young people are told 'be nice' but they are not given any UTLIMATE reason to do so... its all about 'treating others well'..... and while that is a noble sentiment.. it has no firm foundation when our education system has exiled God to the gulag of philosophical irrelevance.

To answer 'where' will it stop ? Mate.. unless we have national repentance..it wont.

OKAY,

I wasn't expecting or wanting the religious angle but anyway, it is said. Boaz, your views are however accepted ;) We are in common with the spare the rod/spoil the child.

There amount of leniency provided many young people has us in despair. You read how punishments ARE NOT fitting the crime. Years ago a kid threw a stone at another and it was the mother of the stone thrower more upset for getting her little Johnnie into trouble.

The law is inconsistent and pathetic as well. A smack on the hand and never will it be literal one. Enough pain isn't felt to make the young person know that "NO" means "NO".

Consequences. It is all about 'do the crime and do the time', if you know what I mean. In my day, a mere breaking of a window even by accident meant you still did extra chores to work off something of the debt. Always achievable and never unreasonable but learning that for whatever happens, there will be consequence. Sometimes good and sometimes bad.

Thank goodness I taught my now two adult children about consequences. They respect others but by god it isn't always returned. Of course we can only teach and try to instill right from wrong. Teach a child in the way they should go and they will not depart from it. Is that the saying. I rely that the foundation I provided will stand my two young people in good stead.

Now in the 'big wide world' one just want them to be happy, thrive, study and work without fear of their lives! Can't guarantee safety.

In this day and age, you can have a totally clean nose and still die.
When will parents do their job properly. Isn't lack of religion.

Is the teaching of life skills and respect for those in authority.
Most of all 'for every action there is a reaction'. What reaction are our young people seeking most. I say attention!! Much of it we read is bad :(

While I dare say we're agreed discipline is important and it's been getting pretty weak lately, that doesn't mean to say corporal punishment's the answer.

I was always a pretty well behaved kid and my parents never used to need to resort to those tactics.

I think it was more the fact that they stuck to their guns on what punishments they did hand out. If I did something wrong it was given no television for a week, they damn well meant it. Same for food treats when I was but a toddler, groundings etc.

More importantly, no amount of pleading and carrying on would dissuade them - I think this is the key here. Parents need to stick to their decisions even when it means putting up with quite a lot.
I suspect far too many parents are often exhausted and tired, so when their kids start nagging they give in, which ultimately leads to more nagging.

As for the thread topic - yes, I think a lot of this is the result of lax parenting. It's harsh but true.

For my two bob, I tend to think the key issue is parent involvement - teaching a child isn't the sole responsibility of teachers, and far too many parents palm their child's education off onto them.
Well educated kids generally make fewer problems, and you've got to start educating them while they're young.

I think if parents read to their kids and teach them basic maths and instill an appreciation for learning before they even get to school, while ultimately have better behaved children who don't resort to this kind of behaviour.

Before trying to determine causes, what are the actual statistics backing up any claim that today's youth are more angry, violent and less well behaved than those of 20, or 30 or 50 years ago?
Adults have been bemoaning the ever increasing delinquency of youths for centuries, but I suspect that's at least partly because as adults, memories of your own behaviour, and those of your peers as a youth, are unconsciously filtered and biased. You could instead be thankful that we no longer live in the 19th century, when children were to be seen and not heard, and by 16 were expected to move directly into adulthood, working 12 hour days and never questioning authority, no matter how unfair or corrupt it was.

If there was a generation that went through a period of overly liberal parenting I would think it would be children growing up in the '60s - and there's no strong indication to me that that generation are particularly angrier, more violent or otherwise poorly behaved. I suspect people overestimate the degree to which parenting behaviour changes with the changing social attitudes, and even the extent to which it influences what sort of adults we turn out to be: I personally embrace liberal and progressive ideals, but as a parent I've very quickly found the need to set boundaries with my own child, and haven't shied away from the occasional firm slap on the wrist. And the evidence seems to be that the biggest environmental influence on the sort of adult he will grow up to be will be his peers and associates - hence choosing which school to send him to is arguably far more important than worrying about whether I'm exercising sufficient discipline or not.

The one thing I think we can say about today’s youths that is a genuinely new problem is lack of exercise and poor dietary habits, leading to obesity. I think it’s far more irresponsible for parents to allow children to eat poorly and spend most of their time on sedentary activities than to “spare the rod/spoil the child”.

Team...just for the record......

While I do believe in corporal punishment...that wasn't what I was particularly advocating.. the "Rod" is "discipline" and it can be painful at times.. whether it is a rod or a denial of something

I remember when 5 yr old kids (like me) would call every adult 'Mr' or "Miss"..or "Mrs" now ?

The fact of the existence of 'royal' language and langauge of kinship relationships.. (my wifes culture has many names which must be used when addressing each category of person) is.. evidence that respect is a vital part of a healthy society.

Lose that value..(and we have) and you are on the downward slide to moral and social and cultural ooooooblivion.

Oh..Cakers :) ALLLways expect or anticipate a 'spiritual angle' from me :)

Don't be shy, Boaz, admit it.

>>While I do believe in corporal punishment...that wasn't what I was particularly advocating<<

You just love it, don't you - you even started a thread on the topic.

>>When my 12 year old daughter slipped out her bedroom window at 2.00am with her 11 year old girlfriend, and sat in the middle of the bush surrounded oval over our back fence, I took her in the presense of her friend, and smacked her bum many MANy times... and deliberately sought to TRAUMATIZE her to a limited degree<<

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=50#750

But it seem that once again, you are very selective in who should be allowed to do the beating, aren't you?

>>what I find amazing is how those sympathetic to the beating of women as 'discipline' react when this is pointed out. They speak 'tenderly' about a position which can only have originated in the pit of hell<<

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4211#33988

Consistency never was your strong point, was it?

>>Oh..Cakers :) ALLLways expect or anticipate a 'spiritual angle' from me :)<<

Spiritual? Hardly.

Hypocritical? Certainly.

Saddly, I (a teenager) must agree with this post. There is too many viloent images on our television screens and more horrible music polluting our minds. As a child of very strict parents who rule with iron fists I would never be allowed to get away with anying. Thust I have seen society change in my years of life. teenagers have 'out grown' the imprint of a 'good' child and are rebeling against any arthourity. If the government was to inforce laws against teenagers doing what they want, teenagers will just rebel more and more. The question is not "where will it stop". It is, Is there a solution?

Zam...
Wouldn't mind hearing the views of other young people actually.
I agree with one post whereby to some degree the current problems
have always been there.

Look at the job scene mention. 12 hour days in the 19th century.
Nowadays pushing a broom is already beneath a school leaver. They
have to get straight to the job with a mega paying job. Instead the parents need to give their little Johnnie guidance and BIG reality check. Life experience is zip. The better ones/youth are the ones that have worked hard and worked their way up the ladder. No short cuts, handouts or silver platters.

Surely then, personal satisfaction and of course, job satisfaction lies. Can a young person be angry and resentful if he is doing positive actions to further him or herself. There is too much boredom out there. There needs to be guidance and direction from unfortunately 'too busy' parents. There are after all 350 thousand impoverished families in QLD alone (on the news this week). But there needs to be parenting and persaution to work hard now to see the results later. Didn't do my generation any harm. I was a hospital based trained nurse ;)

Perhaps the 'instand society' mentality is part of the teenage 'breakdown' seen in places like our Mooloolaba strip after midnight. Bashings, drunken very young people, bored 'looking for a fight' people. Surely employed content young people aren't doing this fighting if the parenting has been strict and CONSISTENT.

There has to be "I mean it. And stick to what you say". Parents today don't seem to mean there there 'punishments' and buckle all too easily.

No wonder little Johnnie is so confused; the boundaries are no longer clear. He'll see what he can get away with 'out there' and they now all too well the law can't touch them. Not corporal punishment but maybe something like wearing a sign in pubic to 'humiliate' into becoming more lawful.

Everyone needs to toughen up and be consistent for the sake of the kids.

Here is an interesting quote that I cut out of the newspaper a little while back because I thought it was pretty accurate.

It is by the actor Dustin Hoffman-- "I have tried to be patient, to listen and to let my children shape themselves. Ultimately, I've learnt that if I let our home run as a democracy, I'm eaten alive".

I take this to mean that children need someone to set firm boundaries and to consistently apply appropriate penalties for bad and disrepectful behaviour. Unfortunately a lot of parents are ruled by their children and this has dire consequences for society when these kids take their undisciplined and selfish behavour out on to the streets of society. How do you fix bad parenting?.

Maybe shaming could work. Make these kids wear green and white striped uniforms and work in the supermarkets and public places in their local communities where they are known by their friends and neighbours. Or is this too harsh for the civil libertarians and lawyers.

It is the faceless society that allows these people to operate without fear of peer judgement. Make their crimes and faces visible to people they know and have to live amongst. Take their anominity away.

The problem is that you need balance. I have seen kids in hgih school who had very very strict parents and they end up completely rebelling against what the parents want them to do. One friend, when he was 16, dropped out of school and started working in a pool hall for a paltry amount of cash and got into drugs. He has no carrer prospects and it was directly related to the fact that his parents were too strict, as this was his greivance in life and this was the way he rebelled against it, by dissing their expectations of him.

On the other hand, I had another friend who's parents were working hard constantly trying to get their buisness off the ground and gave him everything he ever wanted to compensate. He is now the biggest weed smoker I know and can't form proper relationships with anyone.

Continued...

...continued

I think you need to find the boundaries of what's fair, but not just from a parent's point of view. Communicate! You need to see what your child will accept as fair and negotiate based on this in combination with your goals for your child. Then the boundaries that you have set together will have a better chance of being adhered to.

I have just moved out of home after recently graduating from uni at the age of 23. I was brought up in a family where my stepfather for various reasons resented my presence. I used to get hit by him for the smallest things, like not giving him the remote when he wanted it. Now what that led to in me was a pattern of drug abuse (amphetamines mainly) and feelings of hostility and resentment to everyone around me. When I realised that I was feeling this way because of the treatment given to me and the attitude my stepfather had towards me, I was able to let go of my feelings of hostility and resentment and stop using amphetamines.

My conclusion is that a violent corporal punishment style attitude, and therefore a resentful attitude, in parents is precisely what creates hostility and antisocial behaviour in young people. I don't think you can generalise beyond that for example in saying that "this generation is worse or that generation is worse because of reason X"

It will end when the older generation stops enforcing it's views on the younger generation, and accepts that it's not their place to tell others what they can and can't do with their lives. We can see this addiction to control and dictate values in any social issue.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.And so this law should be used more often than not.

Here here, Insignificant.

I posted first thread and since learnt one of the chasers of my son is being thrown in jail for other problems for example, parole violation

I dislike the fact our young people are out there are unwittingly associating with these 'wanted crim types'.

Though perhaps a generalisation, these 'wanted' types with unlawful histories are more likely to be the ones that wouldn't hesitate to cause trouble. It is like they have nothing else to lose; need attention whether good or bad.

How sad there isn't loving and caring families to better guide and love them. To be there in both good times and bad.

I went out to dinner with my 20 and 23 year old and felt so proud. Though no young person is squeaky clean and mums will never know everything BUT at least my two young people know I am there, I love them and that their company is very much appreciated. They talk to me freely about their lives.