In a tribute to Victor Frankl's and referring to his book "The search for meaning" the reviewer shares this:

THE EXISTENTIAL VACUUM: The existential vacuum is a widespread phenomenon of the twentieth century. This is due to a twofold loss that man has undergone since he became truly a human being. At the beginning of human history, man lost some basic animal instincts in which an animal's behavior is embedded and by which it is secured. Such security is closed for man as he has to make choices. Beyond this, man has suffered another loss in his more recent development: the traditions that had fortified his behavior are now rapidly diminishing. No instinct tells man what he has to do and no tradition tells him what he ought to do and often he does not even know what he basically wishes to do. Instead he wishes to do what other people do (conformism) or he does what other people wish him to do (totalitarianism) or he refuses to follow anyone directions or guidance (rebellionism)
The existential vacuum is often experienced as a state of boredom. Frankl refers to this let down due to leisure time as the "Sunday Neurosis." This kind of depression affects people who become aware of the lack of content and meaning in their lives when the rush of the busy week is over and the void within themselves becomes manifest.

COMMENT
I totally concur.. whether our wanna-be forum philosophers like to admit it or not..and no matter how much they claim to have 'happy fulfilled meaningful lives'.... the evidence is, that this is 'bluster' aimed at deflecting 'Bible Bashers'... from intruding into aimless lives.
Frankel understands the Death Camps of Nazism as the ultimate expression of a Nihilistic foundation of life.

Life without God.. when pushed to its logical end.. is Nihilism.

I know that vacuum BOAZ_David especially before I became a christian. I'd throw anything into the hole but only succeeded in getting further away from God.
Now I'm born again (John 3:3) I recognised the vacuum as man being away from fellowship with God (the daily walking with Him as fallen men and women experience)...man being away from the pristine of the garden at Eden (cast out because of original sin) and outside of the original love and respect for the animal world (Creation).
When we genuinely turn back to the Father through Jesus the Son, things begin to change. The Holy Spirit now gets to work on that great hole most, if not all, feel at sometime or other. This is one of the joys of being born again.
*Deviating slightly. For you non-believers... here's a mystery that points to the loss of Eden due to the fall of mankind (as the Holy Bible speaks of it in Genesis chapter 3). Think about nostalgia? Where is it from? Not what it is described as, but what the feeling is. Why do we feel this longing for another time and place, this homesickness for something, this great loss without reasonable explanation? If the Holy Bible describes a perfect Creation, God and Adam and Eve in perfect harmony, with all the animals and birds etc in close loving fellowship...then the sudden loss of it all due to rebellion...wouldnt this create in us a great longing for what had once been...for a paradise lost? Nostalgia points to the clear truth of what the Bible says, was the way it was in Eden.

Dear brother Gibo
your thoughts echo the great words of Paul in Ephesians.... May God grant us all.. to experience them daily.. may all forum readers come to know Him...as Lord and Christ.

Eph 2:1

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth

12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

THE GREATEST "BUT" IN THE WORLD....

13 But now..... in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

From far... to near... in Christ...and the emptiness...is gone.
Amen :)

Enjoy your chat, you two.

I promise I won't butt in until you start slagging off other religions.

What you do and think in the privacy of your own mind is entirely up to you, of course, and I'm happy that it works for you. Just don't try to pretend that it is of any importance to anyone apart from yourselves.

I would however like to - politely, of course - correct you on one small issue.

>>whether our wanna-be forum philosophers like to admit it or not..and no matter how much they claim to have 'happy fulfilled meaningful lives'.... the evidence is, that this is 'bluster' aimed at deflecting 'Bible Bashers'... from intruding into aimless lives.<<

On one level, that is a straight-out insult. I most certainly do have a "happy, fulfilled, meaningful life", and I resent your suggestion that I don't.

On another level, it is as arrogant as it gets - I have absolutely no need to deflect "Bible Bashers" - they have not the slightest relevance to me personally or to my life. Suggestion to the contrary simply tells me that these bible-bashers are so hungry for recognition that they need to invent the idea of being "deflected", as opposed to being ignored.

As I said before, you wouldn't hear a word from me on this topic until and unless you use those voices inside your head to criticize people who suffer a similar affliction, but worship differently to yourselves.

Yeah Pericles but what about the subject. I think its highly interesting.

The point is, Gibo, that religious fanatics like you and Boazy could have your conversation about the supposed 'existential vacuum' that you have populated with your fantasies in a religious forum, rather than here.

That Boazy chooses to characterise those of members of this forum who are not obsessed with the supernatural in these terms:

"no matter how much they claim to have 'happy fulfilled meaningful lives'.... the evidence is, that this is 'bluster' aimed at deflecting 'Bible Bashers'... from intruding into aimless lives."

is invitation - to those of us who find this an offensive comment from a persistent and often hateful god-botherer - to respond.

It's an ongoing conversation that some of us have here, which provides some kinds of amusement to me and many others, and seems to afford masochistic jollies to Boazy and a couple of other Christian fundies who seem to enjoy being ridiculed.

So far, Gibo's been tolerated in much the same way as the village idiot is in less complex societies, but I suspect that may be a temporary thing if his religious babbling continues as prolifically as it has been lately.

well...I'm stunned..I never saw that coming, Perilous and CJ :)

No specific intention to insult but I have to agree.. from your mindset.. to say such things would seem "insulting".... Of course in your self understanding you would feel you have meaning, but honesty would require you to admit that in the big scheme of things... a blob of protoplasm which spontaneously 'occured' over a long period of evolution... does not have 'purpose'...it just has 'existence'.

The only 'meaning' such a life has, is the immediate goals ones self consciousness sets for oneself. But the life "itself"...... has no purpose..it just 'is'....which is a horrifying thought when we consider such things as 'morality'.

BUDDHISM.. just a point (to keep Pericles here for a while)

I was listening to a talk on Zen.. and Buddhisms various incarnations.. and one aspect which came out was the idea to escape the 'rational'..... to achieve enlightenment.

I don't know if anyone sees it...but if you escape the 'rational'..how in the world would you know if you have been 'enlightened' ?

If anyone has a thought feel free to offer it.

I'm amazed no one picked me up on the SPELLING of Frankl's name.."Viktor".

CJ..ur slipping mate.

Perhaps this is an encouraging sign ? Critics are maybe looking at the essense of an argument rather than the crosses on 't's and the dots on 'i's ?

OK, we can be philosophical if you really want to, Boaz.

>>in the big scheme of things... a blob of protoplasm which spontaneously 'occured' over a long period of evolution... does not have 'purpose'...it just has 'existence'. The only 'meaning' such a life has, is the immediate goals ones self consciousness sets for oneself. But the life "itself"...... has no purpose..it just 'is'....which is a horrifying thought when we consider such things as 'morality'.<<

Well, quite.

But many of us are perfectly at ease with the fact that it is not necessary to invent a purpose in order to lead "happy fulfilled meaningful lives".

The problem with your position is that for it to be at all tenable, you have to first accept the premise that God exists, and secondly that he has divined some sort of purpose for us.

In contrast, the most useful aspect of my position is that it only requires the precondition that we exist, in order for our lives to have meaning and purpose. It is simply that these meanings and purposes are intrinsic, rather than extrinsic - people who think the way I do don't need the external stimulus of an imagined "God".

Contrary to the way you think, this does not mean that I am automatically a paedophile, that I condone paedophilia or even that I can imagine situations where paedophilia is OK. I, and many like me, have a strong personal moral code that simply does not need reference to an external entity.

In a sense, I would suggest, my approach requires greater strength and determination than that of someone who believes in a spiritual mentor who lays down the law. That's not a boast, just an observation. It also seems to hold that having such a spiritual mentor doesn't significantly alter human behaviour - there are just as many transgressors in the religious camps, to be sure.

As I have said before, I have absolutely no problem with you relying upon religion to sustain you. In return, you could try adopting the same position with other religions.

I've been both christian and agnostic. Frankly for me life is much better without the christain god. A freedom to live by worthwhile values without the horrid contortions required to try and fit the twisted decrees of the christain god and later additions and interpretations of various churches.

Whilst many non believers probably do live fairly meaningless lives so to do many believers, that is a reflection of what they value and rather than an intrinsic meaning to their belief system.

Someone who craves absolutes and detests uncertainty may well find their life has more meaning following a religious belief, that does not mean the experience is the same for all. Religion has been a common and sometimes useful tool throughout human history to provide a framework for people to have a sense of meaning in their lives, a replacement for those animal instincts refered to in the original post on this tread.

A tool that may have outlived it's usefullness and become the cause of more harm than help. Probably fairly harmless and maybe helpful in the majority of adherants but dangerous in the hands of those with a bent for extremism.

Many experience a much more meaningful life when freed from the belief in a god and the opportunity to take responsibility for their own lives.

R0bert

Hi Rob..and Pericles.

P... if you are at peace with your situation.. then that is your own self assesment..and who am I to do anything other than 'my bit' here.. to offer alternative views.
At least.. you don't have to slam a door in my face after I drop by uninvited and with glazed eyes offer you 'the truth'.

I think that your position is rather perilous though, because you don't seem willing to admit that it is irrational. Indeed you 'select' values and morals which feed your sense of identity, and this is fine.. and might even attract the praise of Thucydides :)...but...as you realize.. any other person, may choose contrary values with equal validity, though not equal fairness.

The way you rip into me when I criticize dehumanizing practices in a particular religion.. makes me wonder why you have not ripped into Robert when he has repeatedly attacked me on Christianity ? (not in this thread, but others)
Not that I hope you would.. I don't mind Robs critique, but it seems inconsistent on your part.

ROB.. I understand your position.. and cannot do other than point to Christ.

RECOMMENDED LISTENING.

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Let_My_People_Think/archives.asp?bcd=8/26/2007

Some excellent material here.. easy to listen to, interesting speaker.

-Christs answers for mans questions.
-The Search for absolutes in a pluralistic society.
-The uniqueness of Christ among world religions.
-Convictions which conquered the world.

and much much more.

You have a very strange interpretation of "rational and "irrational", Boaz, if you brand my position as being the latter.

>>I think that your position is rather perilous though, because you don't seem willing to admit that it is irrational.<<

You proceed to illustrate this by pointing out - quite rightly, of course - that:

>>as you realize.. any other person, may choose contrary values with equal validity, though not equal fairness.<<

Yes, I do. What is irrational about that?

What you fail to point out is any connection between what someone else considers "fair" - be they christian, buddhist or atheist - and my own morality.

I am happy to be judged by my fellow-man on my morals and ethics, which sets me way apart from those who - when they are caught, mark you - excuse themselves by saying that "God will judge them". The subtext being, of course, that their fellow-travellers on earth should automatically forgive them, because God would be giving them a good whacking on Judgement Day.

Here's Marion Jones, who has finally admitted that she is both a drug cheat and an embezzler:

"I have asked Almighty God for my forgiveness."

So, how would you feel about that, if you had been cheated out of a medal, seven years ago? Wouldn't you feel even more enraged, that she couldn't even take responsibility for her own contrition, but happily passes it off on "Almighty God".

Whom, she presumably believes, will forgive her, being altogether merciful and all that.

By their deeds shall ye know them, Boaz.

Where's the "existential vacuum" in doing the right thing?

It cynically crosses my mind that having this emotional prop called religion actually encourages people to cheat on their fellow-man, safe in the knowledge that "God will forgive them".

That's called being contemptuous.

And it is contemptible.

BOAZ_David, thank you for reminding me about Viktor Frankl. Obviously, some of the posters nowadays (I've been absent for a while) are Christians whose religious tenets pervade every discussion. Many such (not all) use faith as a shield against rational analysis - closed minds that cannot be convinced of another explanation for an observed phenomenon under any reasonable circumstances.
I thought we all have common ground in recognising that to be human is to be fallible. Why is it so difficult to accept that no matter how deeply you believe something as a matter of faith, or how convinced you are by the incontrovertibility of the objective data, there is a possibility that you are wrong?
I'm not a Christian of any sort, although I entertain the possibility that an entity beyond our understanding (aka God) exists. Or not.
Like Viktor Frankl, I'm Jewish. That said, I take a dim view of the actions of Christian sects over 2000 years. Church-generated anti-semitism caused ghettos, the Spanish Inquisition, pogroms, the Holocaust. Underneath fundamentalist Christianity, or any other fundamentalist form of religious expression is the idea that as an instrument of God's will, you can dump responsibility for your actions on God. People do it to people. People are accountable to themselves for what they do.
Anyway, to get back to the 'search for meaning', the reviewer's comments are no basis for BOAZ_david's gratuitous judgement about who does or doesn't have a meaningful life. This is subjective, context-dependent concept, and a semantic issue.'Meaningful' does not translate the same for everyone.
Here is a straightforward analogy. Ask people to name something deadly. Most would say a death adder, nuclear warfare, horse flu etc. But some would say a Troy Cassar-Daly concert, footy match or family get-together.
I'm not sure about linking the existential vaccuum to a particular god-centric interpretation of humanity. An alternative view is that there are many individuals in existential distress. For some, I'm sure, being born-again can do a great deal to mitigate against that distress. But there is a possibility that there are other effective ways too.

Hi there Pequod.. welcome to the thread.

Don't worry too much about my 'polarizing' approach.. its as much to open minds to thinking as anything.

You being Jewish.. and not believing in God ? or uncertain at least ?
Wow.. :) that stuns me. It's like Sasha Baren COHEN doing a book on "da gospel according to ali g" where he mocks his own verifiable biological ancestor...Moses. This is one area where I find some Jews are strangely positioned...

Of all the people in the world.... the Jews probably have the most identifiable ancestry. That ancestry is tied up with Salvation history, and the mighty Acts of Yahweh in that history.

I'm evangelical..meaning I accept the Scriptures both old and new testaments. thus, you will find my 'ilk' to be extremely generous and even warm toward Jews. Some of the historical events between the Roman Catholic Church and Jews.. are not only regrettable, but plain baseless.

We could list uncountable atrocities in the past 100 yrs from atheistic regimes toward Christians too.. the Soviets were quite "unfriendly" to put it mildly.

As Jew... you have more reason to have a sense of meaning than most people.. but it is in connection with the history of salvation and your calling to be a 'light to the nations' that this is so.
The church view of Israel and Jews now.. is that they are temporarily sidelined... but not outcast.. and that God will do a mighty work of inclusion in the end..
I would think that is a refreshing change for the Islamic view that ...

-Jesus will return and kill all the Jews.

We say he will return and the Jews will be brought in...(through belief)

The only 'right' I have here is to offer thoughts :)

Thank you BOAZ_david for your welcome. I don't know why you think being Jewish is more likely to prevent me questioning my existence than being Christian, though. More likely not to, actually.
Do you know that nowhere in the old testament or other traditional holy texts are Jews required to take anything on faith? Jews can think what they like, as long as they follow the rules. Much the same as being free to think what you like about speed cameras, as long as you stick to the speed limit.
I don't see how being evangelical makes it possible to reconcile two such very different documents as the old and new testaments. On balance, the new testament is more into tolerance than the old, but history shows that people adjust their interpretations to suit their behaviour - from the Israelites and the golden calf to conversion to Christianity on the rack.
I'm sorry to say that while I am happy for Christians to behave however they like (within reason), on the basis of old testament rules, you are a rule-flouting Jewish breakaway group and God is going to punish you for a thousand generations (by my rough calculation, that's another 13,000 years before you are allowed off the naughty mat). The good part is that it is God who will do the punishing, not people.
The saddest thing of all is what people have done to each other in the name of religion or some other abstract ideal. Christians to Jews, Turks to Armenians, Arabs to Jews, Israelis to Palestinians, Turks and Arabs alike to Kurds, Hutus to Tutsis, Soviets to Jews, Christians, Muslims and free thought, Sunnis to Shi'ites and vice versa, Catholics to Protestants and vice versa, Native Fijians to Fijians of Indian origin, Idi Amin to Ugandans of Indian origin, cowboys to Indians, squatters to Aborigines--basically conquerors to the vanquished. Apparently, social justice, fairness, ethics and morality are not genetically programmed into Homo sapiens.
Add to that the existence of multiple, incompatible and internally inconsistent ideologies, religious or otherwise, and no wonder we ponder on existential vaccuums

Boaz,

“would think that is a refreshing change for the Islamic view that Jesus will return and kill all the Jews”

How many times Boaz? Its 2.5 years of misquoting, misleading, misinterpreting...

The truth is Muslims and Christians have the same belief re Jesus second coming (ie bringing peace and justice, fighting the anti-Christ). Your Wahabi version above is as alien as the neo-cons who believe Jesus second coming is rapture-related (and death of the gentiles, ie non-christians).

I will overlook the sugar quoting of “we say he will return and the Jews will be brought in through belief” yeah right! I will also overlook the fact that for the last 2000 years Jews were mostly persecuted by those who claimed to be followers of Christianity.

Happy Ramadan :)

Peace,

*OUCH* :)

I was repeating popular Islam as expressed to me by lesser notables than your kind self. I should have said "The view prevails in a large number of Muslims"...which seems to me to be true based on conversations with them and in articles such as the one below.

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/367/

The fact that no Jizya will be accepted underlines the abolishment of all religion except one. The People of the Book will be required to follow the Law of Islam which Jesus will impose. The die-hards that refuse will be hunted and killed rather than allowed to continue in their outmoded faith.

“The hour will not come until the Muslims fight against the Jews and kill them. The Jews will seek shelter behind stones and trees, but the stone or the tree will speak: “O servant of God, there is a [die-hard] Jew behind me, so come and kill him!” But the Gharqad tree will not speak out because it is partial to the Jews.” (Saheeh Muslim)

I think the truth here is that I was misrepresenting YOUR Islam :)
You can write a letter to the mob above and tell them to get their act together.

cheers and blessing mate.

Pequod...that was quite a mouthful... I feel encouraged that you took the time to consider all that.. and pass it on.

Your observations of human behavior are quite accurate... but I think you are missing the central theme of Israels original calling.

Reconciling alienated man to God.

This alienation is what God addressed in Christ, (as he had been addressing in and through Israel to that point.)

I speak from a very convinced perspective... that the New Covenant spoken of by Jeremiah, is fulfilled in Christ, and that the gospel is present from the very early chapters of Genesis.

No amount of persuading could ever hope to convince others of this, I can only present the facts as I see them.. of Christ dying for our sin, of rising, according to the scriptures, and that these events were attested by many eye witnesses, and lastly by Paul.. and that this is what fills the vacuum in our lives.

Paul..
5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. (Phil 3)

related in his letter to the Ephesian Christians

2:1 "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

11
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility

COMMENT.. I love those last words "He..himself is our peace"

Boaz,

You are back to your old tricks :-)

I am not into 'hear say' but rather facts and they are as follows:

- From a Muslim perspective, the Quranic references to jesus second coming is similar to the Gospel of Barnabos (ie second coming is about bringing peace to the world and correcting misrepresentations done under his name). There is no references in the Quran to Jesus fighting Jews, Italians or North Koreans :-)

- The hadith (sayings of the prophet) you quoted in sahih Muslim are just historian work. Most of the sources are nestorian christians and Arab Christian orthodox who had a stance on the Jews.

- History: throughout history, Muslim leaders like the famous salahudin, embraced the jewish people as 'people of the book'. Salahudin (saladin) top advisors and physician were followers of the Jewish faith. If it was a 'common islamic understanding'why did Muslims let jewish people live amongst them for 14 centuries from Iran and Medina to Morrocco?

- Jewish history shows that all persecutions they suffered was by followers of your faith, not Muslims.

Don't pick a view by a bunch of wahabbis (& some sects of Christianity) and dwell on it as a 'majority' view.

Can we stop talking about religion for a change? I am going to publish a couple of general articles this wekend and interested in a 'secular'discussion. Can you do that? :)

Peace,

Hi FH :)

mate..I used the term "large number".... not even majority.

I might have used 'vocal minority' and still would be accurate.. even a minority among 1.2Billion is a 'large number'....

UK mosques are 44% under the control of Wahabis mate.. I consider that a 'large number'...even though a minority...

Now..for picking on me.. no sugar in the next coffe I guy ya :)

cheers you suave business tycoon you :)