Thanks mhaze for your comments, they covered some of my gaps over a bit.

I still think Japan embodies the west in very different ways than the way it's embodied throughout the western diaspora in terms of democracy, women, etc rightly or wrongly. I think it's good that Japan has embraced western principles on it's own terms ... somewhat. It can still be a fairly authoritarian place from a western perspective, but there is a check on the extremes of power due to the idea of "Family Japan". The West seems to be more patient with ideas such as 'creative destruction' than Japan, perhaps because of their relative sizes. The Keiretsu for example are seemingly still an important factor in Japan (some see this as a sign of socialism but I see business as more shackled to Shinto/ Confucist Traditionalism than Deng Marxism in this case- overall a good thing in my view).

I understand that Woke/ Marxism/ Maoism has made a significant play for hearts and minds in Japan in the last ten years, perhaps influenced by their scary neighbour.

Since JD was so anxious to verbal me into talking about "coal statistics" even though I'd never mentioned them, I thought I'd look into it.

"Global coal consumption in 2023 reached a record 8.7 billion tonnes (179 exajoules). China consumed 4.88 billion tonnes (91.94 exajoules), accounting for 56% of the global total. The United States consumed approximately 0.4 billion tonnes (8.2 exajoules), representing about 4.7% of global consumption"

China used 56% of the world's consumption of coal in 2023!!

No wonder their emissions are out of control.

Explain to me again how green-friendly China is.

mhaze,

Thank you for finally doing what you swore blind you hadn’t - using coal as your exhibit A for China’s emissions. You can call it “consumption” instead of “statistics” if it makes you feel better, but it’s exactly the link I pointed out.

And yes, China burns a lot of coal. No one’s denying that. What you omit - every time - is the other half of the ledger: they’ve also built more renewable capacity than the next several countries combined. Both facts are true. Pretending one cancels out the other is cherry-picking, not analysis.

So let’s be clear:

- You did lean on coal to make your point.
- I called out the selectivity.
- You denied ever doing it.
- And now here you are, posting coal numbers to prove… what, exactly?

//Explain to me again how green-friendly China is.//

Gladly: they’re neither eco-saints nor eco-villains. They’re burning record coal and deploying record renewables. That contradiction is the point - and the part you can’t seem to hold in your head at the same time.

Strip away the word games and we’re left with the same reality: China’s energy mix is contradictory - coal-heavy and renewable-heavy.

You only ever see one side at a time because the other undermines your argument.

"You did lean on coal to make your point."

If you say so JD. I did point out in my last post that I was only now looking at coal because of your constant whining about it. It seems that was too complex for you.

But you've made your ridiculous claims so often, I think you've actually come to believe them. So sad.

mhaze,

Let’s give you the benefit of the doubt on the emissions figures - you said yourself they might not be reliable. Fine.

But that doesn’t change the point: coal wasn’t something you “only now” looked at because of my “whining.” From the start you’ve treated coal as the pivot of your case.

On 16 August you wrote:

“Well we could start by recognising that China manufactures these renewables using coal and oil which, of course, we are supposed to not notice.”

That wasn’t a throwaway. It was central to your case for why China’s renewable buildout doesn’t count - just before shifting the goalposts:

"When we see all these claimed Chinese renewables actually start to reduce their CO2e emissions, then we'll have something to discuss."
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=10647#371572

So whether or not you trusted the official stats, you were still leaning on coal days before you now claim you “only just” brought it up.

Actually, let’s go one step further, mhaze. Let’s even grant that you only just brought up coal this afternoon.

That still doesn’t save your post on the 16th.

Your argument then leaned on cherry-picked comparisons - holding up China’s rise in total emissions against America’s fall - while dismissing the very data that showed China’s unprecedented renewable build-out. And then you added an unnecessary hurdle: that we should only take renewables seriously if they already deliver a net fall in total emissions.

But that was never the point of the discussion.

The point was whether China is leading the world in building renewables - and it is, by every independent measure. You tried to wave that away by shifting the standard from “are they doing it?” to “have they already transformed their entire energy balance?” That’s goal-post moving, pure and simple.

So coal or no coal, the bigger problem remains: your own standard dodged the actual question at hand.

Thanks for helping to steer us back to that.