By all indications the nuclear submarine deal with America and the UK will end up being nothing more than a very expensive "dream" on the part of Australia. Estimated to cost $368 billion (plus), with the possibility that Australia will never see these nuclear submarines actually delivered. In the short term we have Trump with his hostile economic action, and his "America First" policy, and in the future other US governments putting American interests, including the supply of nuclear submarines to their navy, well ahead of any Australian requirement. The whole AUKUS thing is nothing more than pie in sky nonsense and should be dumped ASAP!

AUKUS and the sub deal aren't the same thing. We could abandon the sub deal and remain in AUKUS.

I don't think that submarines that we 'might' get a decade or more from now is a very cunning plan. China will have the gloves of well before then. Only the idiot Albanese can't see the significance of another Chinese spy ship sailing between Tasmania and the mainland.

We need things much easier and cheaper that we can build for ourselves: like missiles and the Ghost Shark unmanned submarine which is under way now. More aircraft off the shelf is another better idea.

China has shown how vulnerable we are; how easy it is for them to hit our infrastructure, our capital cities, and our population. And the moron in the Lodge dodges around questions about it like a scuttling shitehouse rat.

We currently have only about 60 combat aircraft. Knowledgeable opinion has it that we need two more fighter squadrons and four A330 MRTT tankers to keep them in the air. Seven operational squadrons of F-35s. Their missions can range from air policing and regional assurance to cruise missile defence, maritime strike and counter-air missions.

The US can supply those quickly. In “years, not decades”.

"We could abandon the sub deal and remain in AUKUS."
- So we can be cannon fodder in a US provoked war with China over Taiwan?
Whose going to do the fighting?
- You or 'other people'?

"Seven operational squadrons of F-35s."
- 'Seven squadrons of flying pianos'.

I do not pretend to be any sort of defense expert but I think the
nuclear powered submarines have enormous advantages over conventional
submarines. A country the size of Australia means that conventional
submarines would spend days and days getting from the south up to the
Darwin area.
They would be vulnerable while refueling, charging batteries etc.
The speed, range and time on station makes the nuclear sub superior.

The panic about the Chinese "spy" ship is ill informed.
Everyone knows where the cables are laid and near Victoria they go to Tasmania.
The location of others going to Hawaii, Singapore etc etc are well
known. Of course the navy might have placed submarine detection gear
on the ocean floor so that could be a good reason to try and detect them

The Conservative NZ government had no problem with that Chinese "spy" ship being in their harbour.

"I do not pretend to be any sort of defense expert" why not Bezza, we have a bunch of those experts right here on the Forum, and they don't know which end of a gun fires the bullets.

Australia can't trust America, elect a Mini-Me Trump like Dud Dutton and he will sell Australia out.

Gabbling about the future is much easier and more comfortable than dealing with the present - e.g the circumnavigation of Australia by Communist warships and Communist spy ships; the latter happily sailing in our waters between the mainland and Tasmania.

The only reactions to the spy ship have been Tony Burke ‘s claim of “we know exactly where it is”, and Albanese's “I wish it wasn't there”. Prime Minister ‘Please tell me if my arse is on fire’ doesn't know whether it's the ADF or Border Force that is “monitoring” the situation.

Communist China’s civilian and military machinations are entwined. Despite what the Communist mouthpiece, the Global Times, claims, the spy ship is definitely spying on Australia's underwater cables; plus what's going on at Osborne in Adelaide, and HMAS Stirling in Western Australia.

They might even be able to drop a few mines along the way. Our drongos in politics and defence wouldn't have a clue what might be happening.

Why don't they have surveillance aircraft dogging the ‘Tan Suo Yi Hao’ at the very least. We probably don't have a ship or crew that could get there before the Communists are safely back in their home port!

It's quite possible that we will never see the AUKUS submarines because the US will think that our ‘wish the Communist weren't in our waters’ pissants wouldn't know how to use them.

Xi Jinping's extra praise for his little mate handsome boy's weak approach to Communist aggression won't do much for our relationship with America either.

stay with AUKUS, cancel the subs
mhaze,
Ditto, use the money & the sub manufacturers to build land-based coastal missile stations around Australia instead. That way no-one apart from anyone attacking us loses ! Even some of the useless bureaudroids will still receive their Super !
If no Australian subs & war ships head into potential enemy territory the less of an argument the potential enemy has to come closer than our territorial boundaries !

Come to think of it, Australia needs a Coastguard more than a Navy !

Build a Trump tower or two in every major Australian city, and our future is assured!

The subs aren't even technically for our benefit anyway.
They're so our country and our sons can do their part serving a US policy of maintaining primacy and defending the unipolar world.
Whereas the deal is in US interests because it commits our troops to their fight, and result in will provoke China and put further at risk our country being bombed (significant chance)or invaded by China (less likely).

At least let us all understand what the damn things are for.
The US would probably prefer to keep them packed with nukes for themselves instead.
We don't really bring any extra benefit to their interests by having them unless they have excess they wish to offload, except providing a financial boost to their flagging ship-building industry.

Subs do bring some benefits, but modern wars are now fought with drones and missiles.
And if ours aren't better than Russia China or Irans, then it's best we not get caught up in Americas war in the first place, because things won't go well for us.

Nuclear subs won't prevent the average okker voter from not thinking !

Indyvidual

The average non-thinking okker is actually tuned in to reality enough to recognise his totally insignificant role in changing political outcomes by voting.
Where he demonstrates his brain is challenged, is when he joins the 97% of sheep and goes along to perform the mantra of voting!

diver dan,
Ideally, the way to manage society is with benevolent Dictatorship. What we have now is a Dictatorship that is not only not benevolent but also incompetent.
This political Climate Change called Democracy has been a failure for so long now that people can't even comprehend the difference between good & bad anymore

Let's have a hypothetical with real possibilities; An aggressor heads for Australia with Planes, ships & submarines. Australia has half a dozen subs. Now the confusion on where to position the subs stalls any strategy to retaliate & the aggressor simply pushes on. Then one or two or more Australian subs suffer break-downs outside its territorial waters. Now, a rescue mission gets organised which takes focus, effort & actual defence out.
Were there land-based missile stations all Australia would need to do is wait till the aggressor comes into range & press the buttons. No rescue efforts needed along with the costs & danger to submarine crews etc.
I'd feel much safer with knowing about having access to missiles instead of wondering where the submarines are ! $360 Billion would put a literal missile curtain around Australia, submarines won't !

Communist China will continue intimidating Australia, thanks to Albanese's lack of response. Xi has publicly praised Albanese for being docile in the face of Communist aggression.

If Albanese has the relationship with Communist China all sewn up as he claims, there would be no reason for the Communists to be live firing just off our coast, or a spy ship in our waters off South Australia and Western Australia.

China believes that Australia is “alone and naked at the bottom of the world”. China intends to isolate us from America; the strategy is being discussed in their military colleges.

Defence should be a central issue in the coming election. Shamefully, the uniparty does not have the guts to do anything, making it as big a threat to the population as China is. They are of no use to us if they are not prepared to defund us. Both contestants for the job of PM are a bloody disgrace.

Both contestants for the job of PM are a bloody disgrace.
ttbn,
The incumbent has proven to be unsuitable & the would candidate has to put too much time & effort in fighting off the parasites.
So, who do you think has the mentality to be a PM ?

Indyvidual

Neither. Dutton would be an improvement, but being a good Minister, as he was, is not the same as being PM material. We have not had one such since the days of John Howard and Bob Hawke. There no one in either party capable of the job, in my opinion, or in the entire political class for that matter. The days of 'great men' are over, sadly.

ttbn,
I don't think Australia has the people to vote in a good Prime Minister.

You pair of Old Trumpsters, not long back ttbn in particular was singing the praises of the Fat Clive Party and the Luverly Pauline. What happened, did you realises they are a pair of Wally's, I doubt that.

.

Dear Paul,

.

You wrote :

« By all indications the nuclear submarine deal with America and the UK will end up being nothing more than a very expensive "dream" on the part of Australia. »
.

In view of the difficulties of the American constructors to honour their obligations in a timely manner, plus the harsh, unfriendly tariff imposition by the president of the United Sates on Australia, its staunch ally in ANZAC and AUKUS, coming on top of the huge amount of time and money that was wasted when we accepted to transfer our initial French order to the U.S, in my opinion, we should now ask the French to review and update their quote – this time for nuclear submarines, not diesel-electric submarines as in the initial offer.

Naturally, in so doing, we should advise the US of our decision to allow them to react in a timely manner and preserve their interests if they so wish.

They should not have too much difficulty understanding the reasons for our decision.

.

Dearest Bongalong Paul, 14.05 klm from Nimbin, KK: (Koala Kuntry)

Hi.

?What’s wrong with Uncle Clive and Aunty Pauline?

Pray tell.

Dear Banjo P.

I agree, except for the part where you’ve specified Nuclear.

IMO, our submarines should be close shore specific, diesel-do!

Having been acquainted at close enough quarters with a Collin’s Class Commander some years back, I was surprised to hear, against all the negative press floating around then and now, how, during a joint exercise with the Americans, he succeeded in positioning his craft directly underneath a US warship undetected, true story: What better would you wish for?

Nuremberg Dan,

You ask; "What’s wrong with Uncle Clive and Aunty Pauline?" As a devoted nephew, you need to visit uncle and aunty more often at the asylum. Unfortunate both have received extensive treatment from the Dangerous Doctor Donald, nut job extraordinaire himself. More unfortunately if Mini-Me Trump, that's The Dud Dutton, should get elected here then their treatment by DDD will not be bulk billed on Medicare, nor their much needed hallucinatory drugs, they will not be free on the PBS

What Dan says. After initial problems, the Collins were turned into a damn good submarine. Unfortunately, the refitting of them while we wait decades for something else, has come to a halt. People are the problem, not the equipment. We have too many ning nongs in politics, the bureaucracy, and in defence.

In the meantime, the AUKUS version is reported as being "on schedule", whatever the schedule is. The ning nongs in the media either don't know, or they are making it all up, as they often do.

Dearest Bonger 1405.

Show me the company you keep and I’ll show you who you are then?

Do we know exactly what position Uncle Dud takes with Trump, and likewise Aunty Pauline?

Thanks for the update on their mental health BTW. I’m a born again Psychoanalyst, do you think I could help them in their recovery, and what miracle could I perform to swing them further leftwards than they are: Dud would be the biggest challenge since he’s already very pink. Anyway, suggested printable ideas please.

Greeting from afar, Nuremberg Dan.

"Do we know exactly what position Uncle Dud takes with Trump, and likewise Aunty Pauline?"

Yes indeedy I do, its depends which way the winds blowing, and at moment its blowing very much in all directions, so Uncle Dud is rather confused as to what position to take. He has been busy consulting his pocket guide Karma Sutra to see if there is a favoured position, a quick call to Aunty Pauline and she advised that she very much favours the position on page 69!

"what miracle could I perform to swing them further leftwards"

Very simple, introduce them to the exploits of Genghis Khan, a well known humanitarian, and bleeding heart liberal, well compared to uncle and aunty he was.

I hope our navy isn't as hopeless as the Kiwis.

This is the Captain "All personnel are to try to get to the loo before they get in the liferaft".
- True story.

I told you all it was woke incompetence that sank that NZ ship.
The ship wasn't responding to the officers attempt to prevent sailing into a reef and running aground because it was on autopilot and they didn't realise.

Final Report on Loss of HMNZS Manawanui | Timeline of Grounding, Abandonment and Sinking
http://youtu.be/qwkGsfPJX20

Aye Aye Captain Birdseye

.

Dear Dicer Dan,

.

I note your preference for diesel-electric subs for Australia and the reasons for doing so. You certainly know more about marine and maritime matters than I ever will, Diver Dan.

If I understand correctly, the main advantage of nuclear subs is that they can hold their breath longer than diesel-electrics, stay underwater longer, travel further and faster and make less noise – which seems to indicate that they might be more efficient in combatting distant enemy targets, whereas diesel-electrics are apparently better in defensive close-up battles.

Perhaps we should have a few of each.

For the time being, the key features of the US/UK commitments are as follows :

• A range of opportunities for Australian personnel to work with and learn from UK and US Navies, including increased visits to Australian ports by the UK Royal Navy and US Navy nuclear-powered submarines.

• Increased forward presence of Royal Navy and US Navy nuclear-powered submarines to Australia, to assist in developing knowledge and industrial capabilities.

• The delivery of three Virginia-class nuclear-powered submarines for the Royal Australian Navy from as soon as the early 2030s, with the potential to acquire up to two more if needed.

• The development, construction and delivery for the Royal Australian Navy of an advanced, nuclear-powered submarine called ‘SSN-AUKUS’, incorporating Australian, UK and US technologies.

However, it has recently been reported that “the US submarine industrial base is already struggling to meet its planned production rate of two Virginia-class submarines per year and is unlikely to reach its goal of 66 attack submarines by 2054”.

In addition, the American 2023 National Defence Authorisation Act mandates that in 2031—270 days before the sale of the first Virginia-class submarine—the US president certifies that certain conditions are met. Notably, the transfer of the submarines will not degrade US undersea capabilities.

This means that there is no guarantee that the submarines will be delivered on time. It’s “America First”.

The life span of our existing subs will have expired.

Trump protects the interests of the US. We must protect the interests of Australia.

.

.

Oops, sorry ! I didnt mean to write "Dicer" Dan, but Diver Dan.

I hit the wrong note.

I wasn't suggesting that Dan was throwing dice.

Perhaps if I had typed "Nicer" Dan, I guess that would have been OK.

.

.

(Continued …)

.

So, Diver Dan, to sum up, I think it would be wise for us to not waste any more time and immediately put in an order with the French for three diesel-electric subs as per our initial order, in addition to the three nuclear subs we have already ordered from the Americans.

What do you think ?

.

BP.

The submarine saga is a farcical joke. It’s down to politics, not practical solutions

We’ll be paying big time for doing Uncle Sams dirty work in the South Pacific, where well no doubt, be doing it on our own anyway.

The French Subs would be more than adequate, and a fraction of the price, with huge capabilities, inclusive of transporting special forces undetected with ease; something we needed to consider more carefully.

Bonger 14.05 from Nimbin .

Hey, Aunty Pauline has a daughter running for a Senate position in Tasmania I believe.

Bit cold to be breaking windows down there in winter. Another addition to the Nuremberg Clan.

Any visions through the smoke haze of the green green grass of home to match?

Salutations Nuremberg Dan,

Yes, true the Lovely Lee is itching to take over from her mum the Lovely Pauline. Although in an interview I seen, the Lovely Lee said they often disagreed on issues. These days I'm bit on the warm side for Jacqui Lambie down there in Tassie. Jackie been making a few of the right, I mean left, noises of late.

As for keeping warm, if the Lovely Lee should be successful I'm sure there will be a 'Torch Light Procession' to keep the faithful warm.

Where is the Forums number one Trumpster, mhaze, these days, as his great folk hero The Dangerous Doctor Donald, wipes billions from the retirement saving of Aussie Battlers! Where is he to justify that fools antics.

"The Dangerous Doctor Donald, wipes billions from the retirement saving of Aussie Battlers! Where is he to justify that fools antics."
- You can bet all the institutional investors took short positions insuring themselves from loss and made off with tidy sums on the fall , while mum and dad investors, pension funds and the average Joe Blow took the hit for them.

Meanwhile,

Chinese memes on American re-industrialization rolling in. lol the music.
http://x.com/gaborgurbacs/status/1909348105675211192