“But aboriginal society was possibly the most misogynistic ever. Evidence is that women were treated abysmally. Something like 50% of all examined female skeletons in archaeology show head and bone fractures. But because of this desire to see utopia in pre-Cook society, this information is suppressed.
Yet today, aboriginal women suffer domestic violence at rates that far outstrip other groups. But because we hide the true nature of their society, we head down the wrong path in trying to fix this problem, when we even bother to try. When we portrait domestic violence, we always see white men doing it when a more accurate picture would be aboriginal men doing what their culture has taught them to do for millennia.”
http://tiny.cc/j7z1001

A report into the DV deaths of four aboriginal women was handed down recently. The four women had been killed in the previous year. They were just the latest with at least 82 NT aboriginal women killed in DV incidents in the last 20 years. "Each death examined in this inquest was preceded by years, decades even, of other acts of harassment, control and violence.”

The report found that up to 80% of NT police time was taken up with DV issues and almost all of that was in the aboriginal community.

The inquiry listed 35 recommendations as to how to approach the problem. None considered facing the cultural inheritance of an inherently misogynist tradition.

Meanwhile a survivor of DV at the hands of her ‘partner’ has said the quite bit out loud… “Annie fears violence is becoming normalised and says the cultural shame of speaking out — or getting the law involved — can make it harder for women like her to be up-front.”

Cultural shame. They shame their culture when they speak out so many don’t, and more are pressured to remain silent.

Aboriginal culture doesn’t value women. Never has. The only way to address the rampant DV in that community is to face those facts head on. But Australian society isn’t prepared to be so ‘racists’ so the disproportionate deaths of aboriginal women will continue.

Why single out only Aboriginal culture?

How many other cultures exist around the globe that
have historically treated women and girls badly for
centuries and the matriarchal systems that are still in
control.

Do all cultures really provide for women, easy access
to education, to employment opportunities?
Do wonen and girls have access to reproductive health and
rights, to
maternal health. How many experience gender-based violence,
child marriages, female-genital mutilation, or gender
equality?

If we're going to talk about cultures and the treatment of
women and girls perhaps we need to broaden the discussion
to include other cultures and not just finger-point at
our Aboriginal communities? Domestic violence is a serious
problem in this country.

Lets look at domestic violence and the treatment of women
in our communities as a whole - not just those in
Aboriginal communities.

Only fair?

Instead of treating aboriginal criminals and bash-artists like everyone else, Albo the Idiot came up with Voice. Treating certain people differently has put the rest of us right off these no-hopers

"Why single out only Aboriginal culture?"

Because the report was about the problem of aboriginal domestic violence in the northern territory.

Because 80% of NT police time is taken up by addressing aboriginal DV.

Because DV deaths among NT aboriginal women occurs at rates far greater than non-aboriginal deaths.

Because aboriginal women at 35 times more likely to be hospitalised due to DV than non-aboriginals,

Because solving the problem of aboriginal DV is more important than trying to hide the misogyny in that culture.

Aboriginal women die in disproportionate numbers because virtue signallers want to pretend the aboriginal culture is blameless.

We can only accurately speak from a point of view based on personal experience.

The first view must be from the premise that the Aboriginal culture is tribal. Until you grasp this fact, not much will makes sense: even then, the Western man struggles to make sense of the tribal chaos displayed before him, because Western individualism shines above all other possibilities and broader understandings as his own cultural God, so he is blinded to tribal simplicities.

Then there is his own view of superiority built upon his concepts and experiences of individualism, and thus is built the concrete platform of bigotry and racism: This then is the sadness and the permanent distancing, that turns the genuine Aboriginal struggle for recognition and equality on its head. The White dominant culture demands a return on investment in the recognisable currency of individual change; but this return is an impossible ask!

Hi mhaze,

You might have mentioned that cave in WA. Yes, there is censorship to support the idyllic hunter gatherer narrative, but how does that relate to the current dv? You have said "They know what to do but they don't do it.". So what is it that might be done?

Why single out only Aboriginal culture?
Foxy,
That's why ? You're a perfect example for the need of it !

But the Voice Committee (of black/white politicians in Canberra) would have buried the truth about Aboriginal male DV in NT.

Aye Foxy?!

mhaze,

I agree what's happening in the NT is shocking and a
crisis. However, your opening post was not a balanced
one. You put the entire blame on only one side. Hence
my response.

I'm not trying to excuse any one's behavior but a more
balanced account would have helped.

You made no mention that the NT police commissioner
Michael Murphy and many other figures voiced many
concerns not only about the NT police force, racism,
about the evidence of "chronic and shocking" under funding
and survices struggling to meet demand.

Of the NT government rejecting
calls for $180m to be spent over 5 years for women's
shelters, behaviour change programs, and police reform.

Recommendations have been made as to what should be
addressed including increased and indexed funding for
family violence services, an overhaul of prison and
men's behaviour change programs, culturally appropriate
supports and the establishment of an NT peak body
for domestic and family violence.

The NT's peak Aboriginal Health body, "Aboriginal Medical
Services Alliance" called on the NT Government to fulfil
its $180m election commitment to tackling the crisis to
move beyond "lip service".

"This is a crisis that has cost far too many lives.
Particulaly the lives of Aboriginal women and the
reality is these traumas are preventable".

My apologies - but those are the reasons for my earlier
reaction. There's more to what's happening in the
NT and all of it needs to be told.

Hi Maverick,

No. I suspect it's the NT government that has probably
buried a great deal of information and facts.

"You might have mentioned that cave in WA. "

I have no idea what that means. Care to elucidate?

" "They know what to do but they don't do it. So what is it that might be done?"

Within the wider community there are significant efforts to try to address broader issues and try to change the culture that results in DV in some groups. So we see campaigns telling men and women (but mainly men) to respect women and teach their sons greater respect for women. It also campaigns to have men accept more responsibility for violence when they see or know about it and to step in to address it.

I think much of this is mere virtue signalling and needs to be better targeted but the effort is a step (or a gigantic stride) in the right direction.

But we see no such approach in the aboriginal community. We know that aboriginal culture is/was highly misogynist but that cannot be acknowledged by the aboriginal industry and its satellites. So it cannot be addressed.

In a post above Foxy lists all the things the report recommended about addressing aboriginal DV. But these are all 'after-the-event' spending - more community centres, more police presence, more women's refuges etc. But no where do we see recommendations about trying to change the male culture of DV among aboriginal men as we see in the wider community.

In today's world its OK to tell all white men they are misogynist bastards who need to change. But its impossible to say that to aboriginal men, apparently. We know aboriginal men can change since urbanised aboriginals have DV rates similar to the wider community.

The quote I had in the first post was an aboriginal women acknowledging that they don't talk about DV because it shames their culture. And the wider community doesn't talk about the causes for the vastly higher aboriginal DV rates for the same reasons.

Until that changes, everything else is just putting band-aids on an open wound.

From what I've seen of today's world - it's the making of
excuses for violent behaviour. "They're being blamed because
they're white". It's all about "women power" and feminism"" don't
you know. And so it goes. The band plays on. It's never
the fault of men. Nobody that I know claims that it is.

Domestic violence is personal and circumstances are different
in each case. The adds tell us - teach kids from the
start - about respect. Children are influenced by what they
see around them.

Don't finger-point.
Take responsibility. Teach respect.

As for the Aboriginal violence in the NT?

The government has to take action instead of
just "lip service" as stated earlier. Recommendations
have been made from within the areas affected.
More action is needed, not excuses.

This might help:

http://abc.net.au/news/2024-11-26/the-struggle-of-a-domestic-violence-victim-in-the-nt/104639456

I know that this is probably going to be one of those things you don't get because you don't want to get it...but one more try.

I'm not saying the government shouldn't, wouldn't or couldn't do all the things the reports authors recommend. More refuges - sure. Better police training- OK. More police-always good. Gaoling offenders - of course.

But the one thing they haven't done, don't recommend doing and can't even raise, is confronting the inherent misogyny in the male aboriginal community in the NT.

Occasionally the veil gets lifted and we hear of the "cultural shame" that the misogyny and resultant DV entails but governments and the virtue signalling bureaucracy cannot bring itself to acknowledge, let alone confront it.

So the DV will continue. Aboriginal women will continue to die in disproportionate numbers and be hospitalised in disproportionate numbers. And that will continue until someone or some group becomes sufficiently motivated to address the background cause.

mhaze,

As far as I know the Aboriginal community groups and
organisations in the NT and around Australia have
tried and are trying to address the issues concerned.
They have made and are making recommendations.

The problems appear to be complex, and it's not a matter
of one size fits all.

Hopefully actions will be taken sooner rather than later.
Perhaps if The Voice would have been approved to allow
Aboriginal self determination in allowing Aboriginal
communities to advise the government in issues that
confront the Aboriginal communities - had Australia
allowed for this to happen - Australia may have been
headed in the right direction. Unfortunately Australia
said No!

Phew! thank God Foxy.

I thought for a moment there that the historic millennial old aboriginal misogyny and violence toward women and girls might have had something to do with their culture.

Its reassuring to know that it was all the fault of we Australians who failed to vote as our betters had instructed.

I'm sure the next time an aboriginal women suffers a beating or worse from her partner, her first thought will be that she wished they had a bunch of bureaucrats in Canberra to talk about it.

Anyone who has ever witnessed Aboriginal women stirring up their men requires no explanation or reason regarding domestic violence in indigenous communities !
In our European society anyone who has experienced social workers does not need any explanation for domestic violence either !

Yes Indyvidual,
Drunk aboriginal woman drinking flagon in the park are usually the first to mouth off against the whites.
- Then disparage their own men as weak and gutless for not going on with it, until they join in.

mhaze,

I'm sorry that you misunderstood what I was trying to say.
The Aboriginal communities were simply asking for help.
Not blaming anyone.

Unfortunately Australia
said No!
Foxy,
Unfortunately, there's no polite way to say this but you obviously are totally clueless when it comes to matters indigenous !
I truly abhor using such terms but you don't seem to do as you preach. There are people who know better than the self-proclaimed experts you appear to hold in such high esteem.
Do yourself & everyone else a favour & absorb what's actually going on. You'll find it is the exact opposite to how you'd like it to be !

Hi Foxy,

You ask; "Why single out only Aboriginal culture?"

Because the racists who started the thread sees the excessive amount of domestic violence in the Aboriginal community in the NT as a "winner", and another way to bash "darkie" over the head with a; "see I told you so"! Naturally, the racists is assisted by a chorus of rednecks who pile on. Do you think the Trumpster has any genuine concern for Aboriginal women suffering DV, he doesn't give a rats arse, it just presents an opportunity to attack the hated black fella. He likes to call a spade a spade!

On the score of DV, it is unacceptable in all communities, including Aboriginal ones, and education is absolutely a key factor in alleviating what is a growing and dangerous trend within society. Somehow we have to destroy that macho male tendency towards violence as a first resort in relationships. Its too prevalent and has to be eradicated, and education seems to be the only answer. What are you thoughts?

Sadly due to political forces the police force doesn't seem to be able to focus their efforts on the source of the problem without being accused of stereotyping. This creates additional cost and complexity. Aboriginals in Australia and Afro-Americans both have a culture of rejecting white society in the name of uncle tom-ism and accusations of turning traitor against their own culture. Unfortunately this makes it harder for these sub-cultures to conform to acceptable standards of behavior. Effectively these sub-cultures have declared war against the dominant culture.

Idiots arguing with idiots,

Dear Paul,

I certainly don't have the answers to the problem of
domestic violence. I feel that education certainly
could help. It has to start early. Culture certainly
makes a difference and perhaps many of us don't
really understand the difference that culture makes.
Every culture is different and personal.

Not living in the NT - many of us are not aware of
what's going on and the problems involved. That's
why I mentioned The Voice - where the Aboriginal
communities were asking to give advice to governments
on the problems that affect them.

Do these problems go deeper? I don't know. I suspect,
the problems are deep and entrenched. A matriarchy
perhaps? As you said - education for all would
possibly be of benefit.

Hi Foxy, Merry Christmas.

Educated people, and those who gain a level of economic freedom through education, will in most cases rise above cultural norms which promote negative divisions within their particular group. That's not to say people with a propensity towards violence wont be violent, they will. Its not much different within our own society.

Dear Paul,

I guess we all need to better
understand and appreciate not only the Aboriginal
but other cultures as well, within
our country if we want to establish relationships
build strong alliances, and try to solve problems.
So if we're working with people it would help to have some
perspective and understanding of their cultures. As you said,
education is key.

At the same time we can't pretend our cultures and differences
don't matter. We can't gloss over differences and pretend
they don't exist, wishing we could all be alike, And,
we can't pretend biases and discrimination doesn't exist.

All we can do is remember that everyone has an important
viewpoint and role to play. We need people to work
together and be included in the decision making process
for things to work and recognise that cultural
inclusion goes hand in hand with a just and equitable
society.

A wish to you and yours for love, peace, and happiness
at Christmas and
throughout the coming New Year 2025.

How can you have an intelligent discussion when the likes of Canem Malum refer to a 'sub-culture"? Such comments cement Carl Sagan's observation that western culture has this blind spot whereby they refuse to acknowledge that anyone else could possibly teach them something.

A huge shout-out to Foxy and Paul who still politely engage with these individuals. You are so much more tolerant than I could be.

Carl Sagan was apparently had a "Reform Hebrew" background. There are many that want to come to Western nations then complain they are "too Western"- well der.

If anything this lowers my estimation of Carl Sagan specifically and Hebrew intelligence generally.

At least Peter Drucker and Alvin Toffler balance the scales somewhat.

In a sense Carl Sagan's comments may be a form of projection- based on his sense of being isolated from the dominant culture. I think that it could be said that Westerners believed that Carl Sagan could teach them something.

Physics can be a lonely pursuit.

Freud (and Edward Bernays) also Hebrew had similar but even more concerning projections perhaps- he referred to "the dangerous crowd" in democratic nations and even wrote a book about it. Often before someone goes to war against someone else they will present that group as dangerous. Of course this doesn't mean that every dangerous group is a matter of projection.

At least Carl Sagan didn't present Western culture and people as a threat, as Aries54 seems to be doing.

Every culture should have their own nation.

Maybe Aries54 doesn't identify with the mainstream culture, and is hostile to the west, which is why he might want to write The West out of their own narrative.

Talking about nations and cultures?

There's so many to admire.

Surely we've all enjoyed British actors, musicians,
watching their theatres, films, tv shows. We have to
admit there's something that is great about being
British. I recently saw a t-shirt that had the
following message on it - "Drink Russian, Drive German,
Wear Italain, Kiss French".

So much to admire from so many.

Each having deep traditions, culture and history.
i
All worth noting in their own remarkable way.
Germany is known for its quality management, of
getting the job done with minimal waste and quality
output. Japan for its civility and innovation. Italy
knows how to live the good life. Sweden - for its good work/
life balance , just to name a few.

It's an exciting world we live in. And so much to travel to
and learn from.

Foxy sounds a bit like British Hebrew Economist- "David Ricardo".

The nation that produces a commodity most efficiently should produce it for the world (this means there will be more productive capacity to produce other commodities).

See some objections to this idea below... I have my own objections too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ricardo#Criticism_of_the_Ricardian_theory_of_trade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ricardo

I agree with Ayn Rand that you can't do business with those that are "out to get you".
_____________

Machiavelli in The Prince (also Yuri Bezmenov) recognised that The West had a weakness over Asia in that because of it's subsidiarity/ granular structure, it could be fragmented and destroyed. Asian government being more authoritarian, based on it's rotating officials model, could attack western structures without them being able to defend against it.

I've never heard of David Ricardo. And when travelling
to other countries, as a foreigner I don't want to run
the risk of focusing on poverty and a lack of resources or
on corruption, religious strife, et cetera. These are
valid issues but they are not the only side to any country.

I made a small list. We all have our favourites that we
admire and respect for a variety of reasons. Countries
where we feel welcomed. Often where people have a
strong sense of identity, community, and belonging.
Where they like to celebrate their traditions, cuisines,
et cetera.

I've learned a great deal from my travels, including that
we need to respect the norms and values of our neighbours.
To try to avoid steretypes, judgements, and biases.
But of course at times, that's easier said than done.

cont'd ...

Talking about Ayn Rand?

There are many who admire her. For me tha fly in
the ointment of Ayn Rand's philosophical "objectivism"
is the plain fact that humans have a tendency to
co-operate and to look out for each other as noted
by many anthropologists.

What if we all allowed ourselves to be blinded to all
but our own self interests?

Dear Canem,
So many words and such energy you have devoted to trying to justify to yourself that you aren't a frightened little man, afraid or unable to see the beauty and wonder of the world around you and everything human existence has contributed. Oh well, Foxy generously gave you a short list of things you might like to work on. Good luck.

Ayn Rand doesn't seem to be against cooperation but seems to be against forced cooperation.

Ayn Rand is not just about "self interest" it's probably more accurate as "enlightened self interest". As far as cooperation vs competition is concerned I agree that both are important. There is a lot more to Objectivism. Ayn Rand describes Objectivism as the philosophy of life and says that there exist philosophies of death. Objectivism is rooted in life giving attributes of productivity, and the paradigm that a successful life sustaining civilization needs to encourage those individuals and systems that lead to the most productivity. It seems to accept Schumpeter's concept of creative destruction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destruction

Ayn Rand seems to be against those organisations that use their market power to create laws and red tape to artificially protect themselves from competition, and believes that in the long term this doesn't even help those creating the laws.

Other insight into Objectivism is through John Galt's Speech and Francisco's Money Speech.

I believe that there are some flaws with Ayn Rand- but she says many things that make sense

Paul has basically made my point for me. That point being that one of the fundamental solutions to the massively excessive DV in the aboriginal community can't and won't be addressed because it means addressing the massive misogyny inherent in aboriginal culture.

So Paul doesn't deny that there is a massive DV problem with the less integrated aboriginals. He doesn't deny that aboriginal women suffer at rates vastly greater than women in other groups. He just thinks its racist to point it out. And so, by trying to suppress the facts, his approach will ensure that the problem persists. But in the minds of these people like Paul, protecting the reputation of the culture is vastly more important than protecting the actual women.

That, to my thinking is a despicable approach.

As an aside Paul refers to me several time in the plural..."Because the racists who started the thread..."; "Naturally, the racists is assisted". I think he's so impressed by my output that he thinks I'm more than one man.

.

Dear mhaze,

.

In the United States, the National Institute of Justice found that 84 per cent of Indigenous American women have experienced some form of violence in their lifetimes, while in Canada, indigenous women are almost seven times more likely to be murdered than non-indigenous women.

Similarly, The World Bank estimates that six in ten indigenous women in Ecuador have experienced violence. In fact, indigenous women and girls around the world face systematic violence that permeates every aspect of their lives, according to reports by the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence against Women.

This is rooted in historic and unequal patriarchal power structures, racism, exclusion and marginalization caused by a legacy of colonialism.

The situation in Australia is no different. The same root causes produce the same horrendous domestic violence results among our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.

Our state and federal governments must take stock of the situation and act accordingly.

.

"Sadly due to political forces the police force doesn't seem to be able to focus their efforts on the source of the problem without being accused of stereotyping. "

T'other day, Mrs mhaze and I were watching an ABC news bulletin. One of the main stories was about one of the women who was part of the inquest into the DV deaths. It turned out that her partner and eventual killer had committed a minor offence earlier on the day of the murder, for which he could have been arrested although the police declined to do so. So one of the main points was that the police failed in their duty by NOT arresting the bloke and that resulted in her death. Police, it suggested, should arrest such people even if the charges are minor.

Later in the same bulletin they did a retrospective on the Palm Island riots which was caused by a death in custody. The main point of the story was that the deceased had been arrested on a relatively minor charge. The reporting suggested that police shouldn't arrest people on minor charges.

Irrespective of what happens, the police will be blamed. Its the only certainty in this saga.

Talking about Ayn Rand?

Yes, we deserve to keep what we earn. We deserve freedom
from guilt about doing things for ourselves but Ayn
Rand took it a step further. She pointed out that
altruism was inherently foolish and destructive. She
made the point that producers should hoard all they
produced or distribute it only for personal gain because
they are entitled to it.

That I find problematic because there's more to self-interest
in human existence. Altruism can generate good will and joy,
in itself a valuable thing for any individual.

No one succeeds in a vacuum and no one is an island. We don't
just work on reason alone. We also work on emotion.

Of course there will be people who will be all for
prioritising themselves but for others basking in the joys of
doing things for others brings happiness that can't be
manufactured.

Bill Gates gets this as do many others. When you have plenty
it's a virtue to share.

Ayn Rand's philosophy is interesting. She was born in
St. Petersburg in 1905 to a Jewish family.
12 billionaires with Jewish backgrounds appear on the list
of America's generous givers' who donated a collective
$27 billion in 2022.

Dear Banjo,

The following link may be of interest. It shows
what the NT is investing in - from providing services
to those affected by violence. To programs that seek
to prevent violence over time by changing community
attitudes that condone the use of violence,

http://families.gov.au/domestic-family-and-sexual-violence/domestic-family-and-sexual-violence-prevention

"This is rooted in historic and unequal patriarchal power structures, racism, exclusion and marginalization caused by a legacy of colonialism."

No, these "patriarchal power structures" existed long before the colonialists turned up. All stone aged indigenous societies that the Europeans came upon in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries were highly misogynistic before their arrival. There is ample evidence that Australian aboriginal women were little more than chattels in that society, beaten, enslaved, sometimes sold, often raped and stolen by rival tribes. Archaeological evidence shows aboriginal women suffered broken limbs and fracture skulls in ratios that can't be explained in ways other than the overbearing 'discipline' of their male owners.

Early European arrivals were shocked at the treatment the women received which far exceeded anything then applying or allowed in Europe.

As with all things resulting from the failures of aboriginal culture, the apologists seek to blame the colonialists on the basis that the natives lived in a veritable Eden of plenty, and equality prior to 1770. That Disneyfied thinking works fine for some, but in the real world....

Paul has basically made my point for me. That point being that one of the fundamental solutions to the massively excessive DV in the aboriginal community can't and won't be addressed because it means addressing the massive misogyny inherent in aboriginal culture.

So Paul doesn't deny that there is a massive DV problem with the less integrated aboriginals. He doesn't deny that aboriginal women suffer at rates vastly greater than women in other groups. He just thinks its racist to point it out. And so, by trying to suppress the facts, his approach will ensure that the problem persists. But in the minds of these people like Paul, protecting the reputation of the culture is vastly more important than protecting the actual women.

Posted by mhaze, Monday, 23 December 2024 9:22:01 AM
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=10525#366818
_________

I remember hearing about the links between the Marxist's and the Aboriginal's that were formed in the 1980's when Hawke and Keating were in Cairns.
It seems that the Marxist Aboriginal groups are reframing abuse by males in Aboriginal communities as white male abuse, just in the way they have sliced the cake. This way destruction in Aboriginal communities is tied to the destruction of White communities- brilliant in it's own evil way.

The Aboriginal drinking is far less of a problem to society as a whole in comparison to the inferior mentality of drug abusers of all ethnicities however, Westerners are to most destructive with white Australians leading the tables.
Not even wars have caused as much damage as drugs, too many are just not switched on enough to grasp the seriousness of the situation !
The Anti Western outfits are having laughing fits !

Ayn Rand (Rosenbaum) defines altruism differently to some. She is against donating money to people that aren't producing, and don't have the prospect of producing anything ever. The way Rand puts it "against altruism but supports charity". She believes that charity needs to be at the givers choice.

I think that there is a lot of misrepresentation of Rand by Marxist groups.

Some principles...

- It's been said that Libertarian's give more than other groups,
- no one lives forever,
- even a rich mans family may not have the ability to produce,
- if a rich man believes in making things easier for the next generation of the nation then there are things they can do to continue this value creation,
- rich people are probably the better ones to make the decision on how to continue the common wealth in future generations,
- some say that people start businesses because they look for ways to create value in the community,
- a better way to help a family member that doesn't have ability is to create a better community (than to give them the money because they will just waste it).
- Rand seems to believe that giving free money to unproductive people just spreads nihilism and death and evil (that doesn't mean that you give all the money to the most productive people in society, but you should encourage everyone to be productive according to their ability).
- Giving money to productive people creates cheaper/ better products that the whole society benefits from.
- John Galt's speech has some similarities with the speech from the "Wachowski Sisters" movie "V for Vendetta".
- Ayn Rand seems to borrow some ideas from Nietzsche but doesn't acknowledge it perhaps because she is Hebrew. Hebrew philosopher Jeffrey Kaplan is seemingly more generous to Nietzsche and his Genealogy Of Morals (where he discusses the Priestly vs Knightly Codes). It seems that Rand has used the Priestly/ Knightly Codes as Objectivism

- Rand admits to borrowing from Aristotle- probably his conceptualization of freedom (compared to JSM's version of freedom), and some other concepts.
- Rand apparently rejected Marxism, having lived through the Communist Revolution, in spite of many fellow Hebrew's supporting it.
- Rand was closely associated with Hebrew Federal Reserve Chairman "Alan Greenspan".
- Rand talks about so called "objectivist emotions", "objectivist teamwork", "objectivist virtues".
- When Bill Gates was younger he echoed some of Rand's idea's perhaps without fully understanding them.
- Rand apparently obtained post graduate qualifications in philosophy.
- Rand seems to see much taxation as forced altruism.
- Rand objects to creeping and incompetent government spending and red tape, that seems to finally end in state control of everything, by academic tenured theoreticians (Platonic Abstraction) without the checks of Aristotelian Empiricism (as embodied in Raphael's School Of Athens).

Francisco's Money Speech
http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/2002/08/franciscos-money-speech/

John Galt's Speech
http://amberandchaos.net/?page_id=73

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand

In the 2021 Australian Census there were 984,000 Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander people in Australia which is only
3.8% of the total population. And yet we find that these people
continue to face high incarceration rates and other
numerous other problems.

They continue to be disproportionately represented in our justice
systems. We are given a variety of factors that puts Australian
Aborigines adults and children onto criminal justice conveyor
belts in large numbers.

Some of the reasons given include:

Spending time in and out of home as a child. Having contact
with police early in life. Being a victim of violence and
abuse. Experiencing poverty. Having poor or no safe housing.
Poor school education. Having a mental health or cognitive
disability and not getting support. Early introduction to
alcohol and drugs.

And the cycle just continue.

It is a dire situation. Yet there is hope.
Inspectors of prisons, children's commissioners,
the disability royal commission,
Aboregional legal services, legal and Aboriginal controlled
organisations are all urging governments to address poverty
and disadvantage, improve educational opportunities, stop
the police being the frontline service for mental health
and disability matters and listen to and act on Aboriginal
community knowledge and insight.

Studies have been done all saying the same thing.

If some people are suicidal, and some organisations are suicidal, then some cultures are suicidal.

Research suggests that suicide is influenced by a
combination of factors that overlap and interact.
We need more insights to guide our future efforts
to guide suicide prevention.

Trumpy ,

I don't think you act alone on these concoctions, yes there must be a cell of racists who collaborate on these posts attributed only to you.

"Early European arrivals were shocked at the treatment the women received which far exceeded anything then applying or allowed in Europe".

Did that include burning women at the stake which was 40,000 to 60,000 between 1400 and 1775. Then there were those executed for heresy, after being tortured and defiled. What about the Spanish in America, raped and murdered native women in the most grotesque ways. Then here in Australia, white men raped and then murdered Aboriginal women in the most heinous acts, including slitting women with a knife from their Virginia to their throats, white men for fun, would use a knife to cut the unborn from within pregnant native women.

BTW, in Europe at that time a woman accused of adultery was forced with head shaven to run a gauntlet of citizens who would beat them with sticks, stone and spit upon the said adultness. However the same punishment didn't apply to a male, they simply walked away.

Trumpster, were any of your European ancestors involved in any of the above, a little burning or some such thing?

Dear Paul,

The book - "Damned Whores and God's Police" by Anne Summers
is an interesting read.

cont'd ...
Still relevant today. More's the pity.

Hi Foxy,

According to mhaze Europeans were "shocked" at the treatment of Aboriginal women. Yet the shocking treatment of European women at the same time didn't faze them at all. Often convict women in Australia were assigned to male overlords who treated them abysmally, worked to death sex slaves. I can't think of anything more shocking than to be tied to a stake, and have a fire slowly consume one alive. Do you find that strange, I do.

Oh good....as always happens here, once Paul realises the facts don't support his fantasies he wants to talk about something else. So he stops trying to claim that aboriginal society was nirvana on earth and instead tries to say it was no worse than other places. Well he's half way to understanding.

Yep many women were killed in Europe for witch-craft. But ya know what, they aren't any more. But aboriginal women still die at massively disproportionate numbers at the hands of their 'partners'. And people like Paul are still trying to make excuses for those 'partners' and thereby ensuring that the deaths will continue.

" And yet we find that these people
continue to face high incarceration "

Yep. They commit more crime and therefore end up in prison. Although not often enough according to the ABC and the NT DV inquiry.

these people
continue to face high incarceration rates and other
numerous other problems.
Foxy,
Imagine how much lower these rates would be if Police were allowed to act as they should
if only the academic "experts" didn't constantly sabotage society !

Trumpster,

I simply picked up on your claim;

"Early European arrivals were shocked at the treatment the women received which far exceeded anything then applying or allowed in Europe."

In particular which early European arrivals said that? You make the claim so give it a name. I was surprised at that "shock" claim, given the treatment of women in Europe at that time. I could understand your claim if those early Europeans had come from a pure society where women were treated with nothing other than love and kindness, but they were not. So if I say you made it up, to add weight to what your argument, would I be correct.

More waffle from you, as you wrongly contend without actually saying so that, Paul accepts DV in Aboriginal society, because they are Aboriginal. No I do not, for me the acceptable level of DV in all of society is ZERO, so one act of DV is one act too many. AND, there are too many acts of DV in the Northern Territory as there is in the rest of Australia.

"Did that include burning women at the stake which was 40,000 to 60,000 between 1400 and 1775."

Those figures are so laughably wrong that you wonder that even someone as ill-informed as Paul believes them.

But having historic arguments with Paul is like discussing astrophysics with a palm reader.

I've told Paul before about the way aboriginal women were treated as slaves, sold to whalers and Chinese traders. Each time I did mention it he beat a path to the exit. Archaeological evidence shows that native women suffered broken bones and skulls at rates that were unsurpassed in other cultures. And when Europeans arrived they were shocked at the callousness of the way aboriginal women were treated.

One of the reasons the Tasmanian aboriginals were wiped out was the practice of the men selling their women for periods to the whalers and the fact that the women refused to return after spending time with those whalers.

The life, such as it was, for aboriginal women was hard and brutal and violent. For some it still is.

Kudos MHaze and Indyvidual and Armchair Critic. I was shocked when I saw that the bottle they were passing around in the park was metho (of course Australian metho is ethanol not methanol). It's interesting how they try to pull others into their drinking culture depending on the context.

.

Dear mhaze,

.

What I wrote was :

"This is rooted in historic and unequal patriarchal power structures, racism, exclusion and marginalization caused by a legacy of colonialism."
.

Perhaps I did not express myself sufficiently clearly, mhaze.

What I meant was that only “exclusion and marginalization” are “caused by a legacy of colonialism”.

“Historic and unequal patriarchal power structures”, as you correctly point out, “existed long before the colonialists turned up”.

That leaves “racism” to be explained.

This refers to what has been described as “systemic racism” by police in an analysis of 151 Australian coronial court investigations and inquests over a 20-year period (2000-2020).

The analysis highlighted the vulnerability of Indigenous women to intimate partner homicides, noting that the women’s deaths, in most instances, were entirely preventable. It explored specifically the actions of police, given they were often the first responders to domestic violence.

Cases of police failing to respond correctly to urgent telephone pleas for help from Indigenous women were rife.

The system failings at the intersections of law, policy and practice have arguably in some cases contributed to these women having lost their lives. The analysis explored the nuances of the coronial findings, and policing practices and processes. It concluded by critically reflecting on ‘systemic racism’, coroners’ recommendations for addressing the problem and the significance of the issue in the context of a Queensland inquiry into policing that affirms similar findings.

Here is an article entitled “Indigenous Women and intimate partner homicide in Australia: confronting the Impunity of policing failures”

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1080/10345329.2023.2205625?needAccess=true

.

Trumpster,

I don't doubt your claim that some Aboriginal women were treated badly by males within Aboriginal society. Instances of what you claim more than likely took place, even to the point of permeant physical injuries and even death being inflicted on women. BUT, what I dispute, given the females lot within a patriarchal European society that existed at the time, and given the evidence of grotesque acts Europeans inflicted on women within their own society, and the subsequent horrible acts of rape, murder and gendercide by male Europeans on Aboriginal women, I am surprised that Europeans were "SHOCKED" as you claim by the treatment of Aboriginal women by men. To give impact to what you were saying, YOU MADE THAT CLAIM UP!

As you want to minimise European treatment of their own women, when I said 40,000 to 60,000, mostly women, were burnt at the stake by Europeans during 300 years of the colonizing period you poo-hoo'd it because it don't suit your narrative. There is ample evidence of my figure if you care to look. Of course you have no creditable alternative to offer, as there is none.

""YOU MADE THAT CLAIM UP!"

Over the years Paul, I've provided you and others here with a plethora of quotes from early colonists and explorers concerning their reactions to the violent treatment of the aboriginal women and the way those women sought refuge from white men whenever it was offered. I don't propose to regurgitate those yet again because in the end you don't care about the truth and will forget it as soon as you read it. But I'll mention two by pointing you to Lyndall Ryan's book on the Tasmanian aboriginals and how their birth rate plummeted due to the practice of selling, really renting, young women to whalers and pastoralists and the refusal of the women to return to the violence in their tribe. Secondly I'd point you to the observations of the Blaxland expedition over the Blue Mountains where they saw an aboriginals woman beaten to death for what they considered to be trivial reasons.

Paul hoped..."There is ample evidence of my figure if you care to look."
Translation - he made the figure up and hopes that someone else will validate it for him.

They won't because they can't.

For fact adverse Paul....http://tiny.cc/xyo2001

Note: 16152 executed between 1300 and 1850 of which a small fraction were burned at the stake.

OK maybe one more... I'd refer you to the Sturt diaries of his trips through the Murray region where he observed that most women had scars where they'd be stabbed with spears for infraction against their male owners.

There's three things we can be certain about in regards to this topic:

1. In a year or three, some group or other will be talking about the still unresolved, and probably worsening, problems with DV in the aboriginal community.

2. They'll marvel that all the changes made this year had little to no effect and will therefore propose that the solution is to spend more money.

3. They'll assiduously avoid address the real cause due to cultural shame.

And the beat (& beatings) goes on (Sonny Bono).

Anyone remember when some Palm Islanders got stuck into a drum of AVgas that was washed ashore there ?
I knew blokes who drank shaving lotion & Metho with Rasberry cordial when the real stuff wasn't at hand !

Trumpster,

Are you finished your "Abo bashing" yet? Its sick that a privileged old bloke like you finds enjoyment in attacking people less fortunate than yourself, even if its only on this little forum. MERRY CHRISTIMAS.

Posted by mhaze-

There's three things we can be certain about in regards to this topic:
1. In a year or three, some group or other will be talking about the still unresolved, and probably worsening, problems with DV in the aboriginal community. 2. They'll marvel that all the changes made this year had little to no effect and will therefore propose that the solution is to spend more money. 3. They'll assiduously avoid address the real cause due to cultural shame.

Answer-

I suspect that this is being used to funnel Australian tax funds off to Marxist causes to engineer society against Australian's.

This is a form of economic warfare I suppose... as below...

Marxist's like to create scarcity/ supply shortages so they can control the people. If they can turn on and off the scarcity like a tap they have even more granular control.

It's interesting how they appear to have achieved control/ influence over egg supply through reformulating "the morality of eggs".

By defining absolute morality standards, they can create a fulcrum to swing society.

In Soviet Russia there was legendary scarcity, with empty shelves and full lines of people, having to decide which children to feed.

Marxist's seem to have an interesting way of balancing contradications, and creating paradox, rather the solving it.

In a sense patents and other intellectual property, for example in pharmaceuticals, can have a similar scarcity effect, to Marxism. But hopefully in an environment where there is competition, multiple products can address a single medical condition. In the patent regimes the competitive protection balances the paradoxical needs of the society- 1. the need for innovation 2. the need for competition. Patents in Australia are capped at twenty years, limiting their competitive protection.

Aboriginal DV is gradually sorting itself by more & more non-indigenous claiming Aboriginality !
Like with so many other society related issues Academia needs to be kept away from them !
Some would really warrant being charged !

Merry Christmas Indyvidual.

As a devote Trumpster, mhaze has to make it up on the run.

"16152 executed between 1300 and 1850 of which a small fraction were burned at the stake." Anther mhaze made up fact, the predominant method of execution for witches in Europe was by burning at the stake, hardly a "small fraction". mhaze's European ancestors were also, decapitating witches with axes, could take 5 or 6 blows to remove their head, lynching, often taking up to an hour to suffocate, garroting, disembowelment, drowning. The death took place after a long process of torture including thumb screws, hot irons, the rack, etc. In one favorite act, a "witch" was placed in a barrel with sharp spikes driven in, then the barrel was rolled down a hill, after that the barrel was burned. Yet mhaze claims that his European ancestors after doing all that to women themselves, they somehow were "shocked" by the treatment of women by Aboriginal men. I know they were shocked by their nakedness, European men couldn't resist raping Aboriginal women. The same men, mhaze relies upon for evidence of what he claims.

Trumpster,

You rely upon; "early colonists and explorers concerning their reactions to the violent treatment of the aboriginal women". These are the same colonists and explorers who were raping and murdering Aboriginal women, in the most horrendous ways, and you rely upon them for evidence of barbaric treatment of Aboriginal women. Are you serious?

Canem Malum,
Cheers, same to you ! And, the other handful of "Sane" out there !

Sanity is over-rated.

Indy, Kudos Kid, you both have something in common with Adolf Hitler....Hitler and his Nazi Party also celebrated Christmas, just like you pair ... come to think of it, so do I. Hummmmmm, happy festive Season to you both.

"Hitler and his Nazi Party also celebrated Christmas"

Actually, as with most things Paul thinks about history, this is wrong. The Nazis were not all that happy about Christmas, at least the Christian element of it, and tried over the years to turn it into a pagan festival that venerated Nazi ideology. For Goebbels, the aim was to replace Jesus with Hitler.

Propaganda has many successes and can achieve all sorts of bizarre things and cause people to fall for all sorts of lies. You only need to read Paul's posts to see that. But the attempt to cancel Christmas was dismal failure and Germans, even through the war, continued to celebrate it even in defiance of Nazi entreaties.

Should I point out that Paul doesn't dispute that the treatment of aboriginal women was horrendous and shameful (hence the aboriginal woman talking about cultural shame). He just disputes that the early colonists were shocked by it.

Well I guess getting Paul to see how bad things were for women in aboriginal society is a step in the right direction.

But then he just makes up fantasies about early explorers raping native women despite the absence of any evidence. But evidence and Paul are distant strangers anyway.

early explorers raping native women despite the absence of any evidence.
mhaze,
Did you expect them to record such incidences ? In later years many indigenous women believed having a light-coloured baby would benefit both mother & child. On rare occasions it did.
I clearly recall an indigenous woman yelling at her light-coloured child "you got white skin for nothing " ! Many such women used to claim the colour of the baby was due to blood transfusion in Hospital.
None of these things you'll find evidence for !

Trumpster,

"The Nazis were not all that happy about Christmas, at least the Christian element of it, and tried over the years to turn it into a pagan festival that venerated Nazi ideology." mhaze glad you can cut and paste after you Googled something, well done. Like many today, Christmas has become a commercialized hard sell period of over indulgence.

"For Goebbels, the aim was to replace Jesus with Hitler." But how would Hitler fit in the manger? Was Gobbles going to cut his legs off? On second thoughts Gobbles was rather short, maybe he could have fitted in the manger instead.

Opinions expressed here on any subject have no practical significance or influence on anyone or anything. Aboriginal organisations are hoovering up taxpayers' funds. Let them sort out the problems of the very few of them who are not living like everyone else in Australia these days. It should be of no concern whatever to most Australians - and it probably isn't.

Talking about opinions expressed in this forum?

We can always learn something from opinions. Sometimes
only what not to do.

Sometimes
only what not to do.
Foxy,
Sadly, not even sometimes in fact, extremely rarely ! The most common are among those with more education than their mentality can handle. Don't get me wrong, I have every respect for a real educated, intelligent person whose contribution to society is of real value. I have no time for those whose only expertise is to waffle jargon & exploit the stupidity of their fellow stupid & dragging society down as we're witnessing particularly at this time !

"mhaze glad you can cut and paste after you Googled something"

Paul, if you're going to make that type of accusation, you need to find the article that was cut and pasted from...you know like I always do with Foxy.

But it seems that Paul is just incredulous that someone can have independent knowledge on these type of matters just as he was incredulous that I'd have an extensive library on WW2.

I suppose there's nothing wrong with doing a little google search on matters you're unfamiliar with. But Paul always gets the order wrong. The idea is to do the research and then make the comment. Paul makes the comment, gets lambasted for his idiocy and then does the wikipedia checking, whereupon, having found he was wrong he looks for the nearest exit.

Indyvidual,

We all from time to time spout nonsense as we go about
our lives without any real consequences.

"Think for yourself and let others enjoy the privilege
of doing so too".
- Voltaire.

Indyvidual

You say:

“I have no time for those whose only expertise is to waffle jargon & exploit the stupidity of their fellow stupid & dragging society down as we're witnessing particularly at this time !”

Yes. But do you really think that we ever get any but “waffle”, “jargon” or personal ideology here?

No more than a half a dozen anonymous people banging on with their set pieces and well-known attitudes to everything, with no result at all?

Take this topic. Nobody really cares about aboriginals living in the bush when there is no need for them to do so. If they moved out of the Stone Age like most Australians with aboriginal background have done, the women would be safer, and they would have the fallback of shelters for abused women.

There is no excuse for living in remote areas where there is no law and order, no medical care, no civilised institutions, and NO JOBS.

Until Australian governments do away with identity politics and different groups, nothing will change.

There is no governmental, bleeding heart solution to a problem that has been around for over two centuries. Wittering on and virtue signalling from anonymous posters is ridiculous. Those who genuinely think something should, or could be done, about individuals who do nothing for themselves, should contact whichever useless article is representing an equally useless political party in their electorates, and tell them that they won't get a vote until something is done.

In the meantime, it is a 100 percent certainty that posters banging on here aren't going to influence can-do people to lift a finger. My own attitude - I am sick and tired of hearing about aborigines, and people moaning about something they can't do anything about. Not my fault. Not my responsibility. Nor is it a job for politicians to live citizens' lives for them.

ttbn said; "Opinions expressed here on any subject have no practical significance or influence on anyone or anything."

AND, who is the biggest daily opinion waffler on this site, none other than ttbn himself. For a daily dose of garbage ttbn has been serving it up for years. The blokes a joke!

ttbn,
I post because I am concerned how society is heading into a cul-de-suc of human misery. I hope that some of my opinions give others food for thought. The few who don't & only use this great forum for silly oneupmanship waffle & quips have long ago exposed their mentality so, they're literally just wasting time, theirs & ours.
As for Aboriginal DV well, every society has issues with DV with the exception that other societies do not spend billions on a system that serves no-one except experts & other bureaudroids & general hypocritic pretenders !
Perpetuating untruths & pontificating truths that'd normally just be basic everyday facts in other societies
DV only thrives because of inaction from people who prevent those who would take action from doing so !

We've all heard these arguments so many times:

"Why can't Indigenous people just get over it?"

"Move one." "After all, it happened ages ago".

"It's not my responsibility" et cetera, et cetera.

"Why can't they move to the cities?"

Well, for some Indigenous, it's a cultural thing
to want to live in their ancestral lands. For others
they simply can't "get over it"because the negative
affects of colonisation are still with having an
impact every day often in drastic ways.

These 18th century colonial attitudes set in motion
events and policies and established systems and
institutions that continue to have an impact on
Indigenous people today, despite Indigenous
people's determined effort to resist and try to
overcome their adversity.

They keep asking for self-determination with an
advisoty voice. We're not listening. And then
blaming them because they don't do what they're told.

We're not listening.
Foxy,
Many of us are & all we hear is nonsense from the do-gooders all the way to the pretend indigenous. Only a few of us who lived in remote communities can tell you what you et al don't want to hear.
You are part of the problem ! You dismiss what everyday people tell you & you only believe what ignorant, self-interest Uni indoctrinated experts spin at you !
I'm not indigenous to Australia & I don't want to live in your city society because I dislike Plastic & other tastelessness that comes with it ! I rather live in communities where humans are still people !

By-the-way - taken from the web:

It may interest people to know that:

"Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have
INHERENT rights in Australia, including cultural
rights to self determination".

" The Human Rights Act protects the cultural rights
of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples
including the right to practice their culture,
maintain their language, and maintain their
relationship to the land".

" The United Nations Declaration on the Rights of
Indigenous Peoples ( UNDRIP) confirms that Indigenous
peoples have the right to self determination. This means
that Australia is required to ensure that Indigenous
people have a say in their social, political, cultural,
and economic needs".

"Some say that acknowledging, respecting, and protecting
their rights, is essential to addressing the injustices
of colonialism. Others say that a Human Rights Act that
includes rights to adequate housing, health, education,
and social security could improve the lives of
Indigenous people".

"When the Declaration was adopted in 2007 only 4
countries voted against it. Canada, New Zealand, United
States, and Australia".

"In 2009 the Australian government made a public statement
formally endorsing the Declaration. Even though Australia
has now endorsed the Declaration, Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander people in Australia continue to face very
different life outcomes than the non-Indigenous population".

"The ongoing dispossession and racism towards Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander people contributes to the
huge gaps in health, life expectancy, and imprisonment
rates today".

http://amnesty.org.au/how-it-works/what-are-indigenous-rights/

Indyvidual

Has your concern been noticed by the people who can do anything about your concern? Have you noticed any changes that occurred because of your posts? I have concerns too, but nothing has changed because I expressed them. The same applies to the posters you describe as wafflers and practitioners of one-upmanship; their sole purpose is to nag and disagree just for the sake of it. I no longer even look at their posts.

Do you really think that the political class takes any notice of social media? Take Albanese, for instance. He has openly said that he never reads any of it because he “couldn't get through the day” if he did.

Politicians use social media alright: just to have their say, not to read yours or mine, or that of the sycophantic ratbags who help them spray their ideology around. Once they are voted in, most of them have a job for life, and nothing you or I, or anyone else, says will make much difference because all the politicians are the same: they do what the party says, or they are gone.

This thread has been going on for 10 days, kept going by 11 posters out of just under 18 million registered voters; most of the posters being multiple gasbags.

I bet that the same subject will come up again after the next election, and after every election to come. Nothing will change. Nothing will change because of a few anonymous posters getting the dirty water off their chests. Social media is just a therapy for the Great Unwashed. We have freedom of speech, and the politicians have freedom to ignore us, because once they are in, they mostly have a job for life: a very well-paid one, in government or in opposition.

Apart from the services the government taxes us to provide, we all have to make our own lives: aborigines included.

Indyvidual,

Reading what consistently unfolds in your posts on
this forum is painful. I'm at a loss for words.

" What a sad era when it is easier to smash an
atom than a prejudice".

(Albert Einstein).

I'm at a loss for words.
Foxy,
easily solved, don't write anything !

Reading what consistently unfolds in your posts on
this forum is painful.
Foxy,
Only because you don't have what it takes to understand !

I'm not so keen on writing a blank cheque to give the indigenous forever-handouts, but I'm certainly not opposed to developing some kind of 'foolproof plan' that gives them better opportunities to help themselves.

We could spend a billion dollars on giving them handouts, (and get nothing) or we could spend a billion dollars on setting things up in a manner that gives them work, an opportunity to better themselves, feel better about themselves and to actually want better for themselves.

- To value a decent life where they are in the drivers seat, rather than a hopeless existence with nothing good on the horizon.

If we can change their mentality from 'not caring' to 'actually caring' then the game is halfway won, and the problems might just slowly resolve themselves.

The job opportunities we create don't have to be built around 'profits'.
Break even - even with small government subsidies to get things rolling is really all that's needed.
It shouldn't be about profit, but about changing their feeling of hopelessness to one where they have the means to improve their own lots and feel good about themselves for doing so.

Just spoke with a friend who spent his time in Central Australia about Aboriginal DV. He said "There's absolutely no comparison with the Aborigines from Central Australia to those living on & near the coast".
He said that the level of DV is literally nothing on the coast when compared to inland Australia.
I have heard similar sentiments from a number of others over the years.

"Social media is just a therapy for the Great Unwashed. We have freedom of speech, and the politicians have freedom to ignore us, because once they are in, they mostly have a job for life: a very well-paid one, in government or in opposition."

Social media is now the biggest source of where lazy news reporters get their information from, without having to do any kind of real journalism themselves.
- But then they just pick and choose what to feed the masses for general consumption, in line with their particular political leanings, aims and biases - and to make it safer for young viewers.
As well as omitting unwanted facts, and adding emotionally manipulative wording, so they can tell you what you should think, rather than inform you like they should.

How many times have I given you lot the news, the day before the TV and news print did?

Indyvidual,

Everyone has the right to be ignorant.

It's just that you're abusing the privilege.

Foxy,
And you excel in it !

Indyvidual,

Excellence is a habit.

Excellence is a habit
Foxy,
I suppose it is for those who have been so misled by indoctrination to actually know what it's supposed to actually mean !

Over & out !
Too much nonsense & waste of good writing space.

Indyvidual,

The whole purpose of education is to turn mirrors
into windows.

Indyvidual,

If it makes you feel any better -
No matter how old I get I'll always have to
mentally sing the ABCs to see what letter
comes next.

The same goes for the planet song - Mercury, Venus,
Earth, Mars ...

And the Thirty Days has September ...

But hey, don't judge me. I was born to be awesome.
Not perfect.

And if you can read - you can think for yourself.
Just be more selective in what media you watch
and read.

Thanks Indyvidual for the comparison of Coastal and Central Aboriginals.

Foxy builds a series of strawmen...
""Why can't Indigenous people just get over it?"

"Move one." "After all, it happened ages ago".

"It's not my responsibility" et cetera, et cetera.

"Why can't they move to the cities?""

and then rather tellingly fails to knock them down which is the only purpose of a strawman.

No one here is saying these things. They exist only in Foxy's imagination.

But its a fertile imagination. Somehow she thinks that the aboriginals know the answer to their problems but intend to keep it secret until 'whitey' agrees to give them a constitutionally projected gabfest (aka The Voice). If only we'd agree to get a bunch of elite aboriginals together (and pay them handsomely) then they'll release the secret to solving all problems. Quite why they can't just say it now is never explained and its probably racist (in their warped thinking) to even ask.

"Well, for some Indigenous, it's a cultural thing"

Yes it is. And that's why they are embarrassed to talk about the shame of their cultures monumental misogyny. See my first post...“Annie fears violence is becoming normalised and says the cultural shame of speaking out — or getting the law involved — can make it harder for women like her to be up-front.”

I can't help but notice how many people here hurried to not address that cultural shame.

Talking about straw man arguments?

mhaze once again misrepresents my position to make it
easier to attack.

Par for the course.

In order to try and understand the impacts of
domestic violence in Australia in Aboriginal
communities we need to understand the context
in which it occurs. Why it occurs, and by whom.

Is it a part of Aboriginal culture?
We're told that domestic violence
is not part of Aboriginal culture in Australia.

There's more at the following:

http://womenssafetyservices.com.au/aboriginal-torres-strait-islander-clients/#:

http://ourwatch.org.au/preventing-violence/aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-women

So Foxy doesn't deny that she uses strawman arguments, just tries to deflect by making unsupported accusations.

She claims I misrepresents her arguments and then proceeds to NOT show how.

"we need to understand the context in which it occurs. Why it occurs, and by whom."

"By whom"? Oh dear Foxy, if you don't know that then you are way behind almost everyone else who has ever considered the issue.
I'll give you a hint.....its perpetrated by aboriginal men.

"Is it a part of Aboriginal culture?"
Yes...see above. Still trying to avoid that "cultural shame" admission I see.

"We're told that domestic violence is not part of Aboriginal culture in Australia."

No we're not. You have managed to find the odd site that tells you what you want to hear but the facts speak otherwise. This was a problem for aboriginal women long before 1788.

And until people like you come to admit it, native women will continue to be bashed, hospitalised and killed. But I get the feeling that. for some, that is preferable to admitting that aboriginal culture is/was less than ideal.

A couple of points:

It is important to note that violence against Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander women is, and also has been,
perpetrated by men of many different cultures
and backgrounds. It is important to also
note that not all Aboriginal men are perpetrators of
violence.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people
are over represented as both victims and perpetrators
of family and domestic violence as available information
shows.

The factors that contribute to violence against
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women have been
given to include:

Historical factors, intergenerational trauma, substance
abuse - alcohol and drugs, racism, imbalance in male and
female roles, to name just a few.

Again, there's more at the following:

http://aihw.gov.au/family-domestic-and-sexual-violence/population-groups/aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-people

"It is important to note that violence against Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women is, and also has been, perpetrated by men of many different cultures and backgrounds."

And not all violence against Caucasian women is perpetrated by white men.
And not all violence against asian women is perpetrated by asian men.
And not all violence against muslim women is perpetrated by muslim men.
And not all violence against lefthanded women is perpetrated by lefthanded men.

There is no point or logic to what Foxy says unless you realises its just her trying to run from the truth.

The fact (remember those Foxy?) is that every dead woman who was part of the NT inquest (see above) was killed by her aboriginal partner. Run from the facts all you want but they won't change.

"It is important to also note that not all Aboriginal men are perpetrators of violence."

No its not important to note it....its completely superfluous to note it. No one is suggesting anything like all aboriginal men a violent against their partner. This is just more of your strawman arguments that are, it should be noted, becoming increasingly inane an illogical.

Again I'll note that while people like Foxy seek to hide from the "cultural shame" of aboriginal DV, native women will die. I can't help but think that protecting the culture's reputation is more important to people like Foxy than protecting the women.

Of course, this isn't the first time we've seen this. The #MeToo movement was created to supposedly protect all women from male perpetrators. But as soon as a senior member of the left was accused, the #MeToo hierarchy rushed to attack the women.

Same here. People like Foxy are more than happy to use DV to attack all (white) men, but as soon as the women being killed are non-white, they can't wait to abandon the women and defend the male culture.

Hi Foxy,

You give the reasons for DV in Aboriginal communities in the NT, "Historical factors, intergenerational trauma, substance abuse - alcohol and drugs, racism, imbalance in male and female roles, to name just a few." mhaze with his racist outlook simply wants to equate such DV to the colour of a persons skin. In other parts of our society with similar socioeconomic outcomes, DV is also very high. We will never stop DV from occurring with people who have a basic instinct for violence. At the other end of the scale there are people who will never be violent regardless of their socioeconomic condition, they don't have violence within them. Its the group in the middle that need to be treated through education and social development that will reduce DV in society.

" mhaze with his racist outlook simply wants to equate such DV to the colour of a persons skin."

More construction of strawmen.

Nowhere have I said, intimated or implied that DV is restricted to aboriginals. Quite the opposite. But that was more than two days ago so Paul will have already forgotten it.

The point is that DV is VASTLY MORE prevalent in the aboriginal community than in the rest of society. It seems to be a concept that eludes poor old Paul. We can't blame him really because it does involve numbers (eg aboriginal women are 34 times more likely to be hospitalised due to DV).... and numbers have always bamboozled poor old Paul.

My point, the point, for the umpteenth time, is that the only way to reduce the violence against the native women is to address the misogyny within the aboriginal culture. I know people like Paul and Foxy will continue to pretend to not notice it but there remains "cultural shame" around that misogyny.

Paul thinks that by calling me a racist he somehow wins the point. Its all he's got. Why does he think that? Well for him, being called racist would be the ultimate shame and he'll do whatever he needs to do to avoid it, even if it means condemning aboriginal women to more of that cultural misogyny.

Trumpster,

"The point is that DV is VASTLY MORE prevalent in the aboriginal community than in the rest of society." TRUE (not in all aboriginal communities but in the NT it is prevalent), however ask yourself, what are the contributing factors to such a high rate in that particular community, you claim that it is (solely) because of "misogyny within the aboriginal culture". Both Foxy and I say there could be other factors involved as well, including economic and social factors. YOU, given what I see as racial bias, claim it's all down to "aboriginal culture". If you care to look at other areas, like SW Sydney, you find that, although not as economically depressed as the NT aboriginal community, there with its low socioeconomic level, with a minority aboriginal community, also suffers from a high rate of DV. I understand how you want to equate DV to "blackness" but there are other factors.

People like mhaze are more than happy to use DV to attack the aboriginal community, with no real concern for the Aboriginal women who are the victims.

BTW Frosty, its not strawmen this time of year, its SNOWMEN! And they are white.

Dear Paul,

Apparently , I use straw man arguments. Run from the truth.
There's no point in what I say. Don't use logic. I'm inane
and illogical. I seek to hide from "cultural shame" and I
don't believe in protecting women.

Wow - who knew?

"Wow - who knew?"

Me.

___________________________________________________________

Again Paul you just make things up. I've never said there aren't other factors. NEVER.

What I've been saying is that one of the main factors, the inherently misogynist aboriginal culture, is being ignored due to "cultural shame" (remember that term was used by one of the aboriginal victims) and while-ever that remains the case, the problem cannot be successfully addressed. I think you understand that but can't bring yourself to admit it, even to yourself.

By the way, you now seem to want to restrict the problem to the NT. But that's just wrong. We are only talking about the NT now because that's where the latest inquest was held which revealed yet again, the high levels of DV against aboriginal women. But previously similar things have been found elsewhere. For example the finding that aboriginal women were 34 times more likely to be hospitalised due to DV was first revealed in studies in Western Australia.

I don't know what you were trying to say about SW Sydney, but I suspect you've just conjured up some claims. If you have any statistics, let's see them.

mhaze,

You knew?

Really?

I never would have guessed you were so wise and relatable.

Would you believe that I'm so totally, completely,
eyepopping, seriously groundbreaking, passionately
deliciously impressed with you?

NAH.

Now, that you do know.

Kudos mhaze- Authoritarian's will often hide behind the innocent- that can be embodied in various ways- but the result is pretty similar.

Trumpster,

"I've (mhaze) never said there aren't other factors. NEVER" Yes you did imply that by saying; "the only way to reduce the violence against the native women is to address the misogyny within the aboriginal culture." You have not mentioned "other factors", what are those "other factors"? Do you agree that they could be socioeconomic factors as seems evident for higher than average levels of DV in other sections of the community, and by tackling those poor socioeconomic factors could also help to reduce DV.

It seems aboriginal male attitude is the major first order factor causing violence to aboriginal women. It seems pointless to address second order factors until the first is acknowledged and addressed. Usually in modelling, first order effects are ten times more important than second order effects. So no matter what you do, the first order effect will dominate the outcome.

Paul wrote: You have not mentioned "other factors", what are those "other factors"?"

Much earlier in the thread I wrote..."I'm not saying the government shouldn't, wouldn't or couldn't do all the things the reports authors recommend. More refuges - sure. Better police training- OK. More police-always good. Gaoling offenders - of course."

All of this goes over Paul's head. The point, which he'll never understand, let alone accept, is that all of these things are necessary but not sufficient. In the wider community, it is accepted that just providing 'after-the-event' help is needed but not enough. That is why we see campaigns to try to get parents to teach their boys to respect women and to combat misogyny. But for reasons that ought to be obvious, we don't see that in the aboriginal community - the most misogynistic of all cultures.

Well it ought to be obvious but clearly not to the likes of Foxy and Paul.

Foxy seems offended at the suggestion that she doesn't care about the aboriginal female victims. I didn't make that accusation. But I did make the accusation that she cares less about the victims than she does about protecting aboriginal culture from criticism

"Violence against women is not part of traditional
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Many Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander writers,
point out that in pre-colonial times violence
was strictly regulated and controlled and
customary laws and lore were highly respectful and
protective of women".

This is something that was taken from the links
given earlier in this discussion. Any arguments against
this information should be taken up with them or
alternatively visits to state libraries, and Australian
museums might help clarify things. As would reading
and research on the subject.

There's so much information currently available. We should
not have to resort to personal attacks on people merely
providing information.

cont'd ...

http://ourwatch.org.au/news/opinion-the-long-tail-of-colonisation

http://australianmuseum/learn/first-nations/unsettled/surviving-genocide/missions-reserves-stations/

My apologies. Here's the second link again:

http://australian.museum/learn/first-nations/unsettled/surviving-genocide/missions-reserves-stations/

The Australian Museum has so much information and so many sites.
However it is very distressing - and not easy to read.

""Violence against women is not part of traditional
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures."

Yes Foxy, we get that you rolly-trolly want that to be true. But all the evidence shows it to be mere fantasy. I've listed some of that evidence above and in many other threads over the years. Archaeological evidence shows that aboriginal women suffered disproportion bone and skull fractures as compared to men when, given the prevalence of warfare, the reverse would be expected. We know that aboriginal women were little more than chattels and treated as such by their male partners/owners.

The archaeological evidence is clear although it is systematically being destroyed to try to hide the truth. There is little doubt that a Foxy of the 22nd century will be able to say that everything in aboriginal society was sweetness and light with all evidence to the contrary long since memory-holed.

But unfortunately for the Foxy of the 21st century, evidence remains king and therefore the only way to claim there was no violence against pre-colonial women is to firmly stick your head in the ground. As with Paul who wants others to do research prove his unresearched opinions, Foxy just tells people to go look it up for themselves in the hope that her fantasies might be supported.

Well if you go to a museum to research this make sure you look up works by Colin Pardoe, Mark Allen ('Violence and warfare among hunter-gatherers'), Keely (' War before civilization: The myth of the peaceful savage') , S Webb (' Prehistoric stress in Australian Aborigines: A paleopathological study of hunter-gathering population') all of which completely and unequivocally refute Foxy's fantasies.

Oh and as always, read the works of the early explorers and convict escapees who lived with unassimilated tribes, to see what the real pre-colonial society was like.

Or, as I'm sure Foxy will do, just continue to stamp your feet and claim you don't want it to be so.

I've been doing some reading about the Pakistani grooming gangs in England, who, it now seems clear, over the past few decades groomed, enslaved, raped, tortured and otherwise abused thousands upon thousands of white teenage girls with very little push-back from the authorities who actively sought to hide the truth for fear of being called racist.

As one report noted....
"And the authorities did nothing because they did not want to rock the boat of racial tensions. They literally prioritised community cohesion over the safety and security of women and girls."

Just like those who prioritise defence of aboriginal culture over the safety of aboriginal women.

mhaze,

You seem to want to argue.

I don't.

I'm interested in the information provided in the
Australian Museum collections and the exhibitions on
display. I want to learn about
our history - and try to understand.
I'm not interested in taking sides.

Just in learning the truthful history and trying to
understand it. From what I've learned thus far - it
is distressing. But I shall persevere.

As told by friends who were there a few days ago.
Apparently, down in the southern Cape York area Covid is already doing its thing for this year. Some infected indigenous who came back from the South for a funeral which apparently ended up a near riot for another reason with a woman & child allegedly having been struck by a Molotov cocktail & injured. This close mixing of people from the outside apparently gave Covid a 2025 foothold there.
I was told not a single uttering in the Media about it.

"I'm not interested in taking sides."

The lack of introspection is astounding.

mhaze,

You can always improve.

Historical context is important.

Try to connect the dots.

Indyvidual

It was reported in SA. But, the sort of aboriginal involved, just like the same sort of whitey, is a big yawn for the public. That's the way they are, and the MSM knows it's not worth reporting. Nothing will change.

"Historical context is important. Try to connect the dots."

This is where we always end up with Foxy once she realises she's been barking up the wrong tree for who-knows how many posts. When even her claims that, if someone would just check out the data in this or that museum, she'd be vindicated, are shown to be so much gumpf. When her insinuation of special knowledge is refuted.

She then retreats to inane generalisations and unsupported, irrelevant aphorisms.

'Try connecting the dots' she admonishes while every post in the thread shows she's not even able to identify the dots.

And this is where we always end up with Foxy. Its as close as we ever get to an admission she knows she's been baking up the wrong tree down the wrong garden path.

Mission accomplished.

mhaze,

Once again, I am not arguing. I'm simply explaining
why I'm right - based on history and the verifiable
evidence and data provided.

You as always, stoop to personal insults.

That is never good enough - and the reason why your
credibility suffers time and time again.

All that is being asked of you is to do your research
regarding Aboriginal domestic violence - pre-colonisation,
during colonisation, and
post colonisation - . To see the context of each
era.

It's not a big ask. And no one is trying to insult you.
You on the other hand seem incapable of having a
normal discussion without insults.

Life is too short to keep on having what appears to be
pointless conversations.

Of course we know that you admire and share -
the future American President's mentality and rhetoric -
it's never ever your fault. And the provided data is
always "fake news"

So, there's really no point in continuing to talk to you.

Enjoy your week-end.

verifiable evidence and data provided.
Foxy,
You keep referring to data that is in many cases not factual because it is collected & filed by those with an ulterior motive & agenda. How many incidents do you think are not accurately reported due to this ? I bet you couldn't even guess let alone admit it.
Stop believing that crowd ! Many of us have lived there & experienced the issues you can only guess about yet would you believe us ? No, because we're not ignorant Academic !
You remind me of a academic female author who wrote about an old islander's stories which he told me were "just yarn because she was keen to hear it". When I told her only a day later what he said to me she was appalled how I could be so racist ! I bet you couldn't find that in any of your "Data" recordings !

Indyvidual,

There are many reputable sources to choose from.
Sources that have been vetted for their reputation
and provided for their
accuracy ranging from - Australian Institue of
Health and Welfare, Australian Institute of Criminology,
Australian Bureau of Statistics, Australian government
services, Australian Human Rights Commission, Our Watch,
Safe and Equal, Amnesty Australia, to name just a few.
There are also archival records, books, and primary
sources - which are available in libraries and
museums all under the care of trained professionals.

There is so much information out there. And libraries and
museums do vet their material - especially for accuracy
of its information.

If you prefer your own sources - that is your choice.

I'm not out to convert you or argue with you or any one else.

You see Foxy, you keep asserting that somewhere, somehow, someplace there is evidence that supports your claims and if someone will just go and do the research that you can't and haven't done, they'll find the evidence that vindicates your view.

I know they won't and I suspect you know they won't but you keep asserting it because its all you've got.

I've provided you with a list of research papers you could look up on your next trip to the museum, each of which will fully and indisputably refute your unresearched assertions. But we all know you'll never look them up.

But you continue this schtick that your views are based on facts, its just that you can't find the facts and want others to do it for you. More to the point you pretend that saying the facts are out there somewhere, that's the same as proving your point. Hint: it ain't.

BTW did you know that the third planet of the second sun in the Alpha Centuri system is made out of strawberry yoghurt and if you go to the museum you'll find the proof.

mhaze,

I gave references
and sources from which the information was obtained.

I also suggested where you could
obtain more information and be guided in the right
direction by professionals.

I sincerely tried to be helpful. Yet that seems to have
unsettled you.

I was put on this earth to do 2 things:

Piss people off.

Make people smile!

I can see which lucky one you appear to be!

mhaze,

We know that Alpha Centuri is the closest star system
to ours and we're fairly sure of the presence of
earth like planets there.

The question is, could humans ever actually live there
and survive on strawberry yogurt?

Seeing as you brought up strawberry yogurt. I'll
leave you to answer the question.

Instead of a museum - try an observatory.

Foxy,

You asserted, without the slightest evidence that "Violence against women is not part of traditional Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures."

When I pointed out you had no evidence and had provided no evidence (while at the same time providing a small snippet of the ample evidence to the contrary) you started this claim that the evidence is there if only someone (not you apparently) would look for it. And fairies are at the bottom of the garden if only someone would go look.

then you claim "I gave references and sources" which is a complete unadulterated and boldfaced fabrication. Aren't you embarrassed to do that?

As to the strawberry planet.... if you look up you'll see the point going over your head.

___________________________________________________________________

Might I point out that all of this lying, fabrication and wishful think is done by Foxy in the service of trying to defend the aboriginal culture even while aboriginal women die. If I were Foxy, I'd be hanging my head in shame.

Fin

I also suggested where you could
obtain more information and be guided in the right
direction by professionals.
Foxy,
There you go again. That list of outfits you say we can get information from makes up several Billion Dollars combined yet without any requirement for varification.
These "professionals" have been in charge for several decades now & all we get is them telling more should be done ? It's about time we told them to pull their fingers out & show some real outcomes rather than perpetually highlighting the problems which are because of them !

Kudos mhaze. Maybe we should create an NGO "white men against violence against Aboriginal Women". Obviously Foxy doesn't want to be part of such an organisation.

mhaze,

I gave various links to you - Women's Safety Services
(WSSA) on page 18, which works with Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander clients. To the Australian Institute of
Health and Welfare, to Our Watch. They provided the
information I posted.

Obviously you did not read the given links, otherwise you
could not rationally accuse me for not providing evidence.
I did use reputable sources and I went by the information
they provided in their findings and other references they
gave.

I get that you find all this unacceptable. I find your
arguments illogical. And disappointing to say
the least.

I shall not waste my time with any further responses.
You have enough kindred spirits who will back and support you.

Enjoy the kudos.

I'm out.

cont'd ...

It can't be any clearer:

http://ourwatch.org.au/news/opinion-the-long-tail-of-colonisation

'the long tail of colonialism'
Foxy,
You, I & everyone living on this Planet are part of that, yes even the Aborigines ! How far back do you want go for this idiotic argument. Colonialism has brought more benefits to the Aborigines than the opposite. The fact that those who benefit or find gratification in denying it is yet another chapter in the annals of industry history !
I rember on quite a number of occasions when the colonisers were accused of "bringing alcohol" to the Aborigines which was so bad for them. Then, when alcohol restrictions were imposed upon indigenous communities "Discrimination" became the catch-cry ! Why, even now, so many decades on we still get our ears blasted by claims of "not enough" support in a myriad of other services. Services that are free to the indigenous but have to be paid for by the efforts of every non-indigenous Taxpayer !
It really is time that both, the indigenous & the ignorant do-gooders pulled out their fingers & readjust their mirrors to get a better look at the this so-called "problem" !

The racist will make claims like; "Colonialism has brought more benefits to the Aborigines than the opposite". On balance that is very difficult to accept, given todays disparity between white and black in this country, but the racist minimises the negative impacts of colonialism whilst justifying the whole sorry episode of European genocide and dispossession with so called white man "benefits".

There are many partial & total Indigenous who wallow in more wealth than most non-indigenous could only ever dream of.
These are the ones who are never on display when raising the subject of disparity by the real racists !

Isn't this terrible, even if this was true, this is another sign of the racist, some unnamed "darkie" has more wealth than some unnamed "white fella", now isn't that disgusting, that a black fella should accumulate wealth, in one of the wealthiest countries on Earth. Indy, you receive more in taxpayer handouts through aged welfare than the average Aboriginal.

The typical racist is not your torch carrying, sheet wearing type, KKK member, no they are the minority. The majority of racists are like this bloke Indy, people who demonstrate their subliminal hate for indigenous people with their disparaging comment. Most don't see themselves as racist, just the opposite, but just like the bloke in the white sheet, they are just as much the racist!

Paul1405,
Whatever would you or rather, could you do if it weren't for indoctrinated racism from your side of the fence ? Yes, there are non-Aboriginal racists but they're not as hypocritical as those on your side. No wonder so many real indigenous rejected you lot last year !

Indy,

Control syndrome as you refer to the "real indigenous", in your perceived dominance, its YOU who determine who is acceptable and who is not. The vast majority of racist are not haters, but more or less benign. As a native born Australian should I have the right to exclude people like you as unacceptable, no me thinks not.

you receive more in taxpayer handouts through aged welfare than the average Aboriginal.
Paul1405,
You are of course joking !

Victorian magistrates taught to give light sentences to avoid having criminal migrants deported
http://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/courts-law/victorian-magistrates-taught-to-give-light-sentences-to-avoid-having-criminal-migrants-deported/news-story/eed91637cd38a9cf3a48f565b380086d?amp

'The Victorian government is probing “disturbing” reports magistrates were advised to give light sentences to criminal migrants to avoid deportation.'

Hi AC,

Its a very sketchy news report at best, lacking any kind of detail, rather nameless, but it's worth investigating.

Paul1405,
It goes without saying that reports are sketchy on subjects such as this one !

As an institution the courts system seems to be one of the less transparent ones- this could be an issue- but I need to find out more.

Thanks for the information Armchair Critic.

Years ago, I spoke with a very well-known High Court Judge in a general yarn session about life & general going's-on in communities.
I was appalled at the ignorance he displayed & considering that it is people such as him who make decisions I was literally frightened. H
Foxy reminds of him when she always refers to the Academic Experts as her sources for her cut & paste links !

This is a very positive sign.

Prior to last Christmas Alice Springs Aboriginal men lead a march calling to end domestic violence in the Northern Territory, declaring..

"Not a women's issue - Its' our issue."

Crowds of indigenous men and boys marched from the Courthouse to the Alice Springs town council lawn, shouting:

"End the violence!" "Stop the violence!"

while hundreds of women lined the footpath, cheering them on.

An Anmatyere man fought back tears as he described his late mother's struggle with domestic violence ... Escorted into the ICU ... I couldn't recognize her ... episodes repeated over a long period of time."

Aboriginal community police officers spoke of the continuing violence/killing that needs to stop.

" ... hurting our sisters, our nannas, our aunties ...

Foxy,

The violence/killing of aboriginal women in the Northern Territory is recognized by the indigenous people themselves.

To their great benefit, the men are acknowledging it, confronting it, and doing something about it.

This is an enormous credit to them.

Please don't try to discredit/diminish this.

Only by recognizing problems, and admitting them, can solutions be found.

Indy,

Who was it Judge Judy? All part of your anti-educated mantra, did you actually go to school. If you are so proud of your own heritage, why are you ashamed to say where you came from. I was born in Australia mate, and proud of it, what about you?

Foxy,

Indigenous people of the Northern Territory recognize there is a serious problem of violence/killing of their women.

They are recognizing it, admitting it, and seek to do something about it.

Don't belittle them by denying the magnitude of the problem.

We should admire them, enormously, for doing so. And support them.

Also, Foxy ... enough with the cliches and quotes please! Quotes are only used when specifically relevant to a topic.

Foxy,

Indigenous people of the Northern Territory recognize there is a serious problem of the violence/killing of their women.

They are recognizing it, admitting it, and seeking to do something about it.

Please don't belittle them by denying the magnitude of their problem

We should admire them, enormously, for doing so. And support them.

Also, Foxy, enough with the cliches and quotes please. Quotes are only used when specifically relevant to the topic

Hi WM,

No one is belittling the seriousness of the domestic violence situation within the Aboriginal community of the NT. What is in question, is those who through prejudice make the claim that it is a "black cultural problem" only. The truth is DV is also caused by other socio-economic factors, not the least, poor education, poverty, alcoholism, housing over crowding, etc etc they all contribute to the problem.

Domestics violence is on the increase generally within the Australia community. Education would seem to be the major weapon against such behavior, but it needs to start at a very early age. One thing that is of concern, is the media presentation of violence as a first resort when dealing with problems, its true in so called action movies and in violent games etc. How we correct learned experience is difficult.

Paul,

I can't fault your comments.

However, the topic was about Aboriginal Domestic Violence. If domestic violence in the wider community be discussed, I think it needs a heading of its own.

I hesitated to mention this, as I felt it might be too contentious.

Some years ago I attended a Women's seminar at university. I sat with a group of Indigenous women and we spoke freely. I was surprised when one of them stated that their men were weak. On elaborating, she obviously meant "weakened". They all agreed with the belief that white society had emasculated their menfolk. The role of aboriginal men had been weakened, even removed, from within their traditional societies. This could be a additional factor in domestic violence.

as I felt it might be too contentious.
WhiteMouse,
Paul1405 only responds when he sees an opportunity to stir, he leaves many questions or suggestions unanswered when he can't sense an opportunity to bleat wrong in others, he mainly exploits the term racism, most of the time unwarranted as in this topic !

Hi WM,

"I was surprised when one of them stated that their men (Aboriginal) were weak. On elaborating, she obviously meant "weakened". They all agreed with the belief that white society had emasculated their menfolk. The role of aboriginal men had been weakened, even removed, from within their traditional societies. This could be a additional factor in domestic violence."

Not surprised at all, we all have our pride, and if you find yourself in a failed roll within society, then your self esteem suffers, and that can lead to violent behavior. I still think education, or lack of, coupled with poor socioeconomic conditions is an over riding factor in violent behavior. That's not say there are not people who have a natural propensity towards violence in the first instance. Then there is learned behavior, a child coming from a violent family, having seen violence used constantly, learns to act that way themselves.

I believe there is a wide spread trend in society towards violent behavior, and its not simply a cultural thing, with so many other factors playing a part in causing this violent behavior.

Men everywhere are being & have been weakened by the Socialist Woke & LGB$h;t movement ! Aboriginal men are probably the least affected but affected they are too !

Hi Paul,

Alcohol is widely consumed across Australian society and considered normal.

Traditionally aboriginal people drank a low-alcoholic cider-like drink, where sap was collected and fermented referred to as Way-a-linah.

I wonder if indigenous people have an inherently low intolerance to more strongly alcoholic drinks.

I, a white, am intolerant to alcohol. I am fine with one drink, but feel very unwell after two, and haven't touched alcohol for many, many years.

If Way-a-linah was produced commercially, however, I would certainly give it a try.

I so admire that Northern Territory aboriginals who have confronted their demons and are intent on rectifying them.

Bravo!

I'm sure the wider white community share my feelings.

Hi WM,

There is no argument that alcohol goes hand in hand with violence, in all societies. Its my understanding that alcohol consumption is extremely high in the NT, and among some Aboriginal communities it would be out of hand. Interesting to know how many DV episodes also involve alcohol.

Alcohol is bad as it is however, mixed with drugs & a mentality that doesn't allow considering others is really a road to no return. Throw in cars & the cycle to self-destruction is complete !

You can buy a full still on ebay for about 7 hundred.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/126378101867

Pay on zip pay and it'll only cost you $40 a month.
You can pull out 3 litres of 90% proof which will dilute to about 7 litres at 40% ABV for about $30 + power.
- Every single week.

How are you going to stop people getting these kits delivered right to the front door - anywhere in the country?

"How are you going to stop people getting these kits delivered right to the front door" I agree AC they should be made pick them up from the Post office! That will teach em' a lesson. Had a neighbour who made their own sprit once. A couple of piss heads, wasn't too bad, but not the real JB or JD stuff.

Hi Paul,
It needs to be aged in oak barrels to get the proper flavor.
You can get around this a little by soaking the alcohol in wood chips which are made from used barrels, but no, still not exactly like the real thing.

Probably tolerable though if you like a drink and are on a budget.
10 bottles for $30 compared to one bottle for about $50 at the shops.
The important thing is to remove the methanol from the first part of your distillation, and to filter the alcohol after you've finished to remove any impurities.

The process can be a little time consuming, but not all that difficult.
I have a mate who used to by his from a retired ex copper.

Many moons ago a work mate made mango wine in a community & it was quite alright. The problem started when a few young blokes made of with the 30 litre bucket full of fermenting fruit.
There were no prizes for guessing who the culprits were after some severe doses of diarrhoea were presented at the M.A.P

Let me guess Indy, it was some of those "Jungle Bunnies" you have made reference to in the past on this forum. Would I be correct? You never post anything positive about Aboriginal people, would it have anything to do with the fact you are an out and out racist, who blew in from so unnamed sh!t hole of a country (which you wont name for fear of exposing yourself for what you are)!

Simple question, What country were your born in? Don't want to answer that, do you. I was born in Australia, and proud of it, I'm not ashamed of my country of birth, seems you are.

Perhaps what the indigenous women mean when they say "our men are weak" is that they easily fall into bad habits. They are perhaps subtly implying that domestic violence is a matter of 'virtue'.

Aristotle would be proud.

But any changes need to be owned by themselves. They need to find meaning and purpose and virtue within their own culture. But I don't believe that Aboriginal's had a writing system, hence no detailed recorded history, therefore it could be a tricky problem.

A problem is an opportunity in disguise...

Maybe they can reinterpret virtue, meaning, purpose from cave art and stories.

I bet they can't do it.... ;).

"Australian Aboriginal people have recorded their history
through oral tradition and visual art. They have shared
stories orally for at least 60,000 years. These stories
include accounts of daily life, hunts, battles, and the
Dreamtime".

"Aboriginal people also observed the patterns of celestial
bodies to track time and mark important events".

I was privileged to be asked to catalogue the Aboriginal
oral collection at the State Library of Victoria a few
years ago. It was an educational experience.

The following link is from the National Archives:

http://naa.gov.au/explore-collection/first-australians/records-about-first-australians

Much of the claptrap about aborigines is a Western invention, including “the dreaming”.

Aboriginal wildlife management? That consisted of exhausting local prey and moving on.

Land management? The “much touted burning”? Nonsense. JJ Silcock et al, ‘Biological Conservation’, 2013. University of NSW examinations of charcoal records back to 70 thousand years ago reveal “no significant increase in fire following the arrival of the first people 50 thousand years ago”.

“Aboriginal traditions do not contain ideas of management or ecology. Only Westerners, in thrall to the “romantic and transcendental philosophies of the West" could ascribe ecological thought to Aborigines”.

Traditional Knowledge? Blindly accepted. Some of it invented by historians e.g an angelic and humanistic which is totally untrue.

The “Imbecilic sycophancy” over ‘Dark Emu’ reveals intellectual absence among reviewers and the political class. Pascoe is a writer of fairy tales. Lying about aboriginal “agriculture” and “sophistication of housing”.

Bruce Pascoe backs up his nonsense with such “proof” such as: ‘journals suggest’; ‘perhaps’; ‘it seems plausible’; ‘it may have been’; ‘could’; ‘it could be argued’; ‘possibly’;is ‘likely to have’, and ‘presumably’ - as well as ‘probable’; ‘might have been’; ‘the possibility exists’; ‘there may not be’, and ‘I suspect’.

Those people, including Albanese of Voice fame, fell for the BS in a “fog of ignorance and racism”.

As for treating Australians with a claim to an aboriginal background differently, they are no more ‘united’ than any other group of people. “Unity exists only in the fantasy land of identity politics that divides society into ‘indigenous’ and ‘non-indigenous’”.

Traditional Knowledge? Beliefs and dreams from the past cannot be tested, no matter how many people believe them.

The “wonderful” world of aboriginality myth ignores the miserable and the cruel; the violence; domination and bashing of women; infanticide; the wars and killing.

Aborigines had laws? They had customs, but the idea of laws is just another invention of the Left pretending that primitives had “equivalence with modern people”.

They never surrendered sovereignty? They never had it. Only nations can exercise sovereignty, and aboriginal nations never existed: they were just nomadic clans. Clans are not nations. Agglomerations of clans are not nations. Language groups are not nations.

Props like ‘first nations’, ‘traditional knowledge’, ‘indigenous’, ‘oldest continuing culture’ are social constructs, made up by white Leftists and other bums after money and power.

Genealogy is Western. Ancestry played no part in the traditional aboriginal world. Ancestors were never mentioned after their deaths. Even now, the ABC feels the need to warn that dead people might be seen or heard in a program.

Now, any dubious linkage to the past is a lurk to get money.

I think that Stan Grant, Marcia Langdon, and many
others would disagree.

ow many politicians are seat warmers, and are in it
for the perks and power? How many really enter politics to
make a difference? We need a bit of balance instead of
the usual stereotyping. Please allow for individual differences.

Here's just a small list of others whose goals
were to make a difference:

Albert Namatjira,Eddie Mabo, Cathy Freeman, Archie Roach,
Oodgeroo Noonuccal (Kath Walker), Vincent Lingiari, Lowija
O'Donoghue, William Cooper, Kevin Gilbert, to name just a few.

This list only scratches the surface of Aboriginal history.

This is interesting... Ttbn will like it more because it relates to Australia.

Article Title- Hawke and Keating were overt socialists once attending Minto communist training camp for Aborigines

http://cairnsnews.org/2023/05/19/hawke-and-keating-were-overt-socialists-once-attending-minto-communist-training-camp-for-aborigines/

"I naturally carried out inquiries into why commonwealth vehicles and Labor members were visiting the property known to the locals as Camp Haveta [Nudist Colony] Minto Bush Club was it to engage in a game nude volley ball?

Camp Haveta was the front for the Communist Party of Australia since 1958 and was used as Communist Training Camp at Minto, near Campbelltown, and the land was once inhabited by the Dharug people Also the Eureka Youth League and Young Communist used and enjoyed the property.

It was an educational facility allowing long residential schools, as well as the occasional weekend seminar on Communism. The first principal of the school was Eric Aarons who used teaching methods he had learned in China, the curriculum revolved around the works of Karl Marx, and focussed on the particular problems of Australian industry and politics.

Also Kevin Cook was frequently at Minto, as a communist and Builders Labourers Federation member, and more and more often as an Aboriginal activist.

Minto was important to new left this opening of the party, hosting seminars on gay rights, feminism, radical lesbian separatism, the anti-war Vietnam War movement and the campaign for Aboriginal autonomy. Indeed, members of the Communist Party of Australia were already seasoned campaigners for Aboriginal equality and key events like the planning of the Aboriginal Tent Embassy took place at Minto."

I wonder if Foxy and Paul1405 have been to Minto? I shudder to think!

I wonder if CM ever prays, has a faith, or ever goes to church?

It might help him if he did.

A very troubled soul in need of divine help.

No. I've never heard of or been to Minto.

I've been to Bathurst, Windsor, the Hawkesbury, Wagga
Wagga, Albury Wodonga, Wentworthville, Parramatta,
Strathfield, Kensington, Maroubra, Manly, Bondi,
Port Macquarie, Kempsey, Byron Bay, Adelaide, Canberra
- to name
just a few.

Do they count?

I could list all the places overseas I've also
been to - but the list would be too long.
Minto was not on my list. Although I have been
to Narrandera. I even bought a hat there one summer.
Boy was it hot.

Do they count?
Foxy,
Depends in what context. If it's in relation to this thread then, no it doesn't mean a thing !

Hi Foxy,

A friend of mine has an investment unit in Minto, I hope all that mob of communist gay feminist's aboriginals were not in Rays unit, all at the same time, it only has 2 bedrooms. The Campbelltown train stops at Minto, but I wouldn't get off, not a real existing place is Minto, unless you are the Kudos Kid, that is!

Me thinks the Kudos Kid is actually a "Good Ole' Boy" from Alabama. BTW The Campbelltown train doesn't stop at Alabama, well not often.

Hi Paul,

I've never met anyone who sounds like CM.

I've got family from England. They are stud farmers
and they named a prize bull after my eldest son.

I've other family living in London. None of them
behave like CM.

All I can do is pray for him.

I've never met anyone who sounds like CM.
Foxy,
i'm sure you have met many but your mentality wouldn't allow you to realise it !

Indyvidual,

Thank you for your kind words.

Hi Foxy,

Interesting stats from NSW, physical abuse in DV cases is down to 29%, whilst instances of control violence, such as financial control, stalking, tracking, electronic monitoring, etc are on the increase, 54%. The typical DV perpetrator is not the "wife basher" of old, but more a coercive controller. Men who for example check their partners mobile phone, men who restrict a partners access to money. Give that several old blokes on the Forum believe in men's dominance over women, they are probably passive perpetrators of DV themselves, without knowing it.

Kudos Indyvidual. Speaking of mentality see the video below. A bit off topic, but I think you'll enjoy it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11-ckSz6FrQ
Chris Langan - The Interview THEY Didn't Want You To See - CTMU

Apparently Chris Langan has an IQ above 190, obviously very intelligent.

They talk about many topics, not just the 'Cognitive Theoretic Model of the Universe'. Langan sees the universe as "display and process"/ "state and change"/ "mind and matter"/ "cognition and reality". Langan uses many terms as synonyms, that I didn't think usually went together, but do.

http://ctmucommunity.org/wiki/Cognitive-Theoretic_Model_of_the_Universe

The interviewer is also extremely good and well known.

The conversation covers God, the universe, politics, Marxism, the project team as a conspiracy,... etc.

I'll have to watch it a few more times to extract all the information from it.

Hi Paul,

Just to jog a few memories:

http://lucymorris.com.au/australia-cruel-and-vindictive-or-generous-and-complacent/

Hi Foxy,

Australia's treatment of asylum seekers over recent times has brought nothing but shame on our country, and on us as a people.

BTW; Seen a report that says 4 out of 5 octogenarians in Australia suffer from some form of cognitive degeneration (a persons ability to think, learn, and remember). I think we have about 5 conservative octogenarians on this forum, based on their postings, I agree with that report. What is your opinion?

Dear Paul,

I've got a husband and an older brother both of whom
have been diagnosed with Alzheimers. But I prefer
to call it - "Some-Timers". Some things they remember,
some things they don't. (smile).

cont'd ...

Dear Paul,

As for some of the toxic posters on this forum
I never wish bad things on anybody who tries to
wrong me or anyone else.

I merely pray for them to have sudden explosive diarrhea for
them when they're amongst other people or out in
public with frequent sneezes. (smile).

I shall continue to pray for them.

Nobody is born in to a perfect world.
We all need to make assessments and adjustments.
To do this we need to be rational and logical.
So the bottom line is; it is time for some citizens to grow up.
To grow up and become fully functioning adults, motivated by reason.
To become trusted and admired individuals.
All this anti-social and anti-law behaviour is absurd.
To blame ones behaviour on somebody else is also absurd.
Grow up and become responsible, and the problems will disappear.

Australia's treatment of asylum seekers over recent times has brought nothing but shame on our country, and on us as a people.
Paul1405,
The real shame here is that you et al go off topic whenever you have no answer or sensible reply.
Also, equally shameful are not Australians but the people who come from those countries supposedly fleeing oppression yet trying to establish the same here.

Now, going back to the topic, Aborigines are more prone to dish out violence for petty reasons than other indigenous yet they're also more likely to not hold grudges forever such as the pretend iAborigines of pale complexion.

Indyvidual,

You represent what refugees are running from.

Foxy,
you just stated more about yourself than about me. I never have nor do I reside in a society that produced refugees.
It's more a case of pseudo refugees coming here because of people like yourself !
I wonder what Aborigines would say this has has to do about domestic violence in their society. Considering that many of the domestic & economic woes in remote communities are in fact generated by people you appear to revere i.e. academics, it'd be interesting to hear their views rather than your ignorance-loaded quips ! I'm not brainwashed or as they say in your circles educated however, in matters remote community living I take on any do-gooder !

Individual,

Do you know what it feels like to live in a place where
you are robbed of your humanity?

These unfortunate people are pushed into extreme conditions
by outside forces they are powerless to resist.

Establishing the understanding that we all belong to one
humanity is the most essential step for how we might
co-exist in this country.

How about - instead of blaming - we try understanding?



.

Indy,

You say nothing of your "dark past", obviously you migrated from "somewhere" to Australia seeking a better life, you sure hit the jackpot. Free housing, free travel, free money and a well paid cushy job to boot, which you said Gough gave you the sack from in 72', probably incompetent as a public servant, been on welfare ever since . How many years is it now, you've had the snout in the taxpayer funded trough.. 50

we try understanding?
Foxy,
Agree, why don't you start today to understand why mostly single men are travelling through several countries to get to Australia.
I know you're trying to convey to us how compassionate you are but you expect the rest of Australians to pay in every which way for your idealism. You need to realise that most Australians are working class & they pay more than their way yet get less for their taxes than pretend refugees get for zilch contribution ! try to understand that ! How about letting them work here & pay taxes & let them use their earnings to help rebuild their homelands after all, they won't let go of the many vices of their cultures that made them (supposedly) refugees in the first place. Spend some time in their enclaves & experience the side you refuse to see !
Of course there are genuine refugees but they don't get help !
Paul1405 on the other has nothing sensible to contribute as per usual so we'll just leave it at that !

Indyvidual,

I am speaking from my own life experiences. And I am
entitled to do that as are you. I have no wish to
try to convert you. I don't know you. You don't know me.
Our experiences are different. As I imagine are our
values, traditions, and cultures, religions, and beliefs.

I have lived with a variety of different cultures all
of my life. Of course there were some unpleasant people
amongst them. That's life. I take people as I find them.
Dealing with them on an individual basis.

I see no further point in continuing this conversation with you.
We live in different worlds.

I don't wish you ill. I merely prefer my world to the one you
live in.

From my experiences I have found that most people are decent
human beings.

As hopefully, I try to be.

I don't wish you ill. I merely prefer my world to the one you
live in.
Foxy,
My World is sustainable !

Indyvidual,

You say that your world is sustainable?

So you really do believe that you as a global citizen
can put aside your narrow self-interest and work together
with the teams of professionals, scientists, economists,
and philosophers as friends if there
is to be a world for those humans and other animals who
follow on.

That's great that you are willing to listen to the vast
army of experts who are willing to guide us through the
upcoming difficult years. A better world is possible.
It will take time. It will be difficult. But it will be
worth it.

Unfortunately there are those losers in life, that have only jealous contempt for the educated, people who have abilities that far exceed their own, the real contributors to society. These useless knuckle draggers disparagingly refer to the hated ones as, "left wing academics". What they don't realise is its these "left wing academics" that provide the means whereby the knuckle draggers snouts can be kept firmly in the taxpayer trough.

Enough with the ad hominem attacks and virtue signalling.

It is not about either of you.

We should be applauding the aborigines of the Northern Territory who have publicly admitted and faced their domestic violence issues, determined to make change.

Let's not self-centred egos detract us from this.

Again ... it is not about either of you.

jealous contempt for the educated,
Paul1405,
As White Mouse says stick to the subject. Anyhow, as this is not possible with interfering mutts like you I have no choice.
Contempt for the educated you say ? I have no contempt for them but I am utterly dismayed that those who are not educated despite having spent years & wasting other peoples time are the ones in power. Yes, those whom you regard as "educated' are in fact the useless mutts who ruin everything for all. Every Prime Minister since the Goaf has been "educated" yet look at the state of the nation ? Sold out, cheapened down, disunited & just about broke with a broken Education system, the biggest drug abuse society in the World, no manufacturing etc etc.
All courtesy of "educated" people ! Yes, that kind I loath !
Bring back a National service to clean the gene pool !
Sorry White Mouse it had to be said !

WhiteMouse,

The conversation between Indyvidual and myself had
veered off topic. We were discussing refugees not
our Indigenous people. This often happens in discussions
on this forum. People often go off topic. We had already
posted on the Indigenous domestic violence issue earlier.

Your validation is not required on how or what we can post,
or any reminders on what the topic is of any discussion.
The job of the moderator is already taken.

Thank you.