Katherine Murphy in her article for "The Guardian,"
writes that Peter Dutton is Australia's figurehead of
fear and fake news, like Trump but without charisma.

We've all seen the Liberal Leader's recent behaviour in
dishing out provocations to get voter's attention and using a
deadly crisis to stir even further - showing no restraint.

Would any of you want him as a future leader of this country?

Why or why not?

There's more at the following link:

http://theguardian.com/australia-news/commentisfree/2023/oct/14/peter--dutton-is-australias-figurehead-of-fear-and-fake-news-like-trump-but-without-charisma

There are no surprises in the Loony Left's blaming of people other than themselves for the massive humiliation brought down on them, not by Dutton who was irrelevant during the whole mess, but by Wankernese, the architect of the rubbish, now bleating that all he did was pass on a request from aborigines who, it has now transpired, didn't want the bloody Voice.

With all due respect, - the topic under discussion
is Peter Dutton
and whether or not you think he'd make a good leader of
this country.

Why or why not?

Hello Foxy, I heard nothing from Peter Dutton, I received daily emails from Jacinta Price, and Warren Mundine. Of course, the Guardian must try and blame somebody, as a sad loser, for their campaign. The ABC are trying to blame rather than report the results unbiased, it is difficult for them to accept the outcome. They are reporting on the Blak National Parliament to now raise a treaty. This again raises a division of two nations at conflict, they have not accepted equality of citizenship.

Thank you Josephus.
I take it then that you would approve of Peter
Dutton as a future leader of this country?

No I don't think Dutton would make a good Prime Minister
But I think Albo's made a mess of it and I don't think Penny Wong would be any better.

None of the above

I agree. I don't think that Peter Dutton would
make a good Prime Minister of this country. In my
view he's very divisive and a tad too ambitious. I may
be wrong but I get the impression that his own
interests come first instead of the nations.

We'll see who else will dare to challenge at the next
election on both sides. It would be interesting if
some new blood rose from the ranks. There's enough of
them around.

Voters decided the referendum result, not Dutton or any other politician. Or, should I say that 60% of the voters decided it, and the other forty were influenced by the bullying and name-calling of Yes activists. So, people criticising Dutton should be criticising their fellow Australians - at least the ones who think for themselves, unlike their critics.

To answer the question - even though I don't know why it was asked - Dutton is a disappointment, like all but a very few Liberals. He would be better than Albanese (who wouldn't) but he would not be a good Prime Minister if his performance as Opposition Leader is indicative of his courage and leadership skills. All politicians have forgotten that they are supposed to be serving the people, not pushing their own beliefs.

If I had to choose a better leader for the Liberals, I would go for Bridget McKenzie. All the men are wimps.

What Australia needs now is to be Labor-less !

Foxy, I think Dutton is a noncharismatic leader and that might be the
best thing about him.
I think he does a workman like job as he did with the boats.
I think he could do with some instruction with public speaking.
Not too much or it would spoil him.
Unlike virtually all the other members he has really been at the sharp end.
That has probably made him internally resilient and confident.
Almost all pollies have been trade union reps, political ladder climbers or solicitors.
Not the best qualifications for running a country.

"Would any of you want him [Dutton] as a future leader of this country?"

Wrong question. In our system, it is a contest between two. The options are Dutton or Albanese. The correct question is which of those two would you prefer, remembering that the leader brings with him/her all the baggage of the party that elevated them to leadership.

Frankly neither option is the slightest bit appealing but that's what we've got. When the time comes we'll need to make the choice between the lesser of two evils. In a better time, in a better country, better people would be elevated to the contest, but alas....

Dud Dutton's track record speaks for itself! PATHETIC! As for Albo, well take him, or leave him, not much of a choice there.

" ... neither option is that appealing".

True. So, why do we keep voting for either option? There are other options available. One Nation; United Australia; Liberal Democrats (or whatever they are allowed to call themselves now); Family First; Centre Alliance; Katters Australian Party; National Party if they had the sense to dump the Liberals and go it alone; independents.

Anyone except Liberal/Labor/Greens. Nobody in their right mind votes for the Green/Communists. But, with a bit of competition, forced on them by the only people who can force it on them - the voters - the major parties will have to ship up or be minor parties,

It is pathetic that voters complain about the Liberal/Labor duopoly, but will not do anything about it. Gutless wonders.

ttbn, don't be shy, you really like to promote far right parties, One Nation in particular. Do you want to see The Lovely Pauline as PM?

I'm so glad that people are responding to this topic.
Thank you.

I thought that Peter Dutton was a good Defence Minister
during a difficult time. However his recent behaviour
is questionable and I've lost confidence in him. But
of course, I could be wrong - and who knows what the
future will bring and who will step forward for a
leadership position. There are many good people out there.
Some of whom can surprise us all.

I think that to be voted into politics in the first place
is a great privilege. An honour that not everyone gets.
And I know that it's not an easy job and most of the people
involved are there for the right reasons - to make a change
for the country's benefit. Not all of them succeed of course
but at least, many do try.

I am proud of our country. Certainly we're not perfect and
we make mistakes - but I think that most of us - do believe
in a "fair go," and inclusion. We've muddled along all these
years, and will probably continue to do so. But eventually we
do get it right.

"fair go," and inclusion.
Foxy,
Bureaucrats & Academics have worked against that for generations ! Somehow, I can't see them change !

Indyvidual,

It's the people who can insist on changes.
Politicians will have to comply if they want to keep
their jobs. It's up to the people to influence decisions,
Which was made clear at the last election. This will
probably happen again at the next election.

Liber Senator James Paterson has just sent me a
"Thank You," for my part in the Voice referendum.
which was gracious of him. I won't tell him I
voted YES.

Peter Dutton will now probably back-peddle on his
second referendum promise. I can't see him
pursuing that initiative now that he's achieved
what he wanted. It will be interesting to see how
and where the Liberal Party will go in tackling
the Indigenous problems that do exist - or will
they be ignored? Child welfare is a biggie that
should not be ignored, as is health, education,
employment, and so on.

We can no longer pretend these problems don't
exist.

The true leader of this country needs to be Jacinta Price who single handedly took on the Elite and Big Corporations and with truth telling crashed the division of this country of race identity politics. Peter Dutton did not have to say a word when Jacinta led the No campaign. We should be celebrating her courage, but instead the ABC and SBS are licking their wounds after the loss of their biased Yes promotions.

I can't see him pursuing that initiative now that he's achieved
what he wanted.
Foxy,
Why use such words ? He didn't ask for any of that nonsense, it was the crowd you so vehemently support who did that.
Dutton din't 'want' that, this nation needed this outcome for a better future ! We, including you should thank our lucky stars that there was sufficient common sense & decency to avoid jeopardising this future !

"Liberal Senator James Paterson has just sent me a
'Thank You', for my part in the Voice referendum.
which was gracious of him. I won't tell him I
voted YES.

Despite my 'No' vote, I thanked everyone at the polling for their volunteering efforts.
I thanked the 'Yes' campaigners, I thanked the 'No' campaigners and also thanked the AEC staff.
That in itself may have been a small gesture or commitment to 'Voting NO to the voice of division', or it may have simply been recognition of these peoples selfless unpaid efforts, commitment to our country's democracy (even though I complain about it often enough) or just general good manners.
- Maybe all of the above.

"The true leader of this country needs to be Jacinta Price who single handedly took on the Elite and Big Corporations and with truth telling crashed the division of this country of race identity politics."

Maybe she could be, she did do a great job,
(I think both sides can recognise this - the 'Yes' side will probably first need to stop complaining and blaming)
She certainly had more influence than her counterpart.

I'm not sure she yet has a broad knowledge in other areas of governance to take the top job.
- But maybe that's exactly what the country needs.

Suggesting that Jacinta Price would make a good Prime Minister is rather fanciful. She has done an excellent job as a Country Liberal Senator, but I'm not sure that the senior party of the Coalition, the Liberal Party, would be keen on the idea. The only non-Liberal PM I can recall being PM was Deputy PM and leader of the then Country Part, John McEwen following the disappearance of Harold Holt. McEwen, as DPM, had himself appointed by the Governor General to avoid having Bill McMahon in the job, which proved to be a good idea at the time, when McMahon did get the job and fluffed it later on.

There might have been two other times when a non-Liberal served as PM in a non-Labor government, but I don’t think we will see Jacinta in the job in the future.

ttbn, you need to look up Australian Prime Ministers and the political parties they represented. Australia had a number of Non-Liberal Party and Non-Labor Party PM's before WWII.

Jacinta Price has certainly shone in a highly emotional and in-your face area, but Territorians will be waiting to see how she performs in the more mundane areas that affect all of them in their daily lives.

Paul

I don't feel any need to look up anything, thank you. I'd be happy for you to tell me what you know. Are you talking about PMs not of the main party (senior) in a Coalition government, as I am?

Peter Dutton, an ex-cop
Has shown the voters what he's got
He's said NO to all the Blacks
He's won his case without the facts
A future Prime Minister he wants to be
Dishonest tactics we don't need to see
This is the way it does appear
He can garner in people with what they most fear
We should not allow this sort of play
To influence us when we have our say
We need to feel that things must change
By taking stock then re-arrange
We should be a nation of a Fair Go
Where a leader's behaviour isn't so low
Where White Folks and Blacks could both abide
Without there being a great divide
The next time you go to the ballot box
Think of your vote and what could be lost
Don't choose someone who'll only see
Their career path ahead of you and me
Therefore think wisely as you mark the paper
Are you choosing an ambitious baiter?
If you're convinced that you are not
You'll probably happy with what you've got
But give a thought to the voiceless people
Whose lives will continue to be feeble
You haven't given them a choice
By voting against giving them a Voice
They now won't be able to be equal
They'll be waiting patiently for another sequel!

ttbn,

'Blackjack' McEwen knew more about Billy 'Big Ears' McMahon than just politics, and he certainly wasn't going to have one of "them" as PM, even if McMahon's Liberal colleague were willing to forgive some slight indiscretions of Bill's. That's why the Liberals ended up choosing Senator John Gorton as PM.

Whilst protesting the Vietnam War at Sydney airport, and PM Billy was flying to Canberra on a commercial flight one Sunday arvo (Even PM's used TAA in those days, for the short hop to Canberra) Billy approached us young protesters for a chat, he was a pleasant sort of fella, he asked me and one or two others if we'd like to accompany him to Canberra, he could arrange it, I was about 17 at the time Old Bill was about 65! Well what does that tell you.

Foxy,

"Has shown the voters what he's got
He's said NO to all the Blacks
He's won his case without the facts"

I'm afraid you need to stop and take a deep breathe here. The aboriginal elite have called for a week of silent reflection and perhaps you could take a leaf out of their book.

The referendum result has shown that you and many like you, utterly misunderstand the Australian people. The leaders you adhere to utterly misunderstand the Australian people. It does you no credit to start asserting that the result was won by 'No' "without the facts".

The Australian people had the facts. They probably understood the facts better than you. They also understood that many of the facts were being withheld by the aboriginal industry because they were unpalatable to the Australian people. You and those like you, ignored the lack of facts for reasons that are all too obvious.

So before you set out to denigrate the 60% who think differently to you perhaps you ought to ponder how you got it so wrong, how the leaders you admire got it so wrong.

The aboriginal elite and those, like you, who were too terrified of being labelled 'racist' to oppose the aboriginal elite thought they could withhold the facts. That the Australian people were able to see that they were being asked to sign a blank cheque and to simply refuse, is to their credit and they ought not be denigrated for their overwhelming decision.

Paul

You have gone off on a tangent without answering if you knew what I actually said about PMs, and if your wide reading had actually revealed the same thing.

Never mind. I like a bit of history. Billy Big Ears was the worst Prime Minister in my life - until Albanese. Black Jack was a nasty old bugger.

And, this might surprise you, but at the time you mention, the Vietnam War, I was a Lefty, who vowed that I would never vote Liberal as long as my bumhole pointed south. I had Commonwealth Police hunting a younger brother at my work place. The silly little bugger actually wrote to Sneddon telling him that he would not be registering. They got him eventually, and I had the experience of visiting him in jail.

Times change. My bumhole still points south, and the Liberals are too far Left for me. But, I've never forgotten the Vietnam days, and I'm still against conscription, and I'm still angry about the young blokes (blokes only remember) who were caught up in it, including the regular soldiers who are still suffering from that pointless conflict.

mhaze,

Yes. It's highly amusing how we NO voters only voted No because we were mislead by misinformation and dastardly non-Labor politicians like Dutton. The arrogance of the YES crowd is mind-boggling, and their lack of self-awareness even more so. All bullshite and self-delusion.

This says it all.

"Despite an 80,000-strong volunteer army, the endorsements of all the major sports codes, multi-million-dollar corporate funding, celebrity spruikers, months of favourable media coverage and Their ABC being even more unbalanced than is its norm, the Voice went to the people and was thrashed. And thrashed decisively."

https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/the-voice/2023/10/daze-of-whine-and-poses/

ttbn,

Another Country Party leader to become PM was Earle Page whose government only lasted 19 days in 1939 until the UAP elected Menzies. Page refused to serve under Menzies as he charged that 'Pig Iron' Bob was a coward for failing to enlist during WWI. Page quickly lost the Country Party leadership to Archie Cameron who formed a coalition with Menzies UAP in 1940. War with Japan was looming, and Menzies appeasement policies were unpopular, the Menzies government collapsed and was replaced by a new government with Country Party leader Arthur Fadden as PM, but the Fadden government only lasted about a month having failed to gain parliamentary confidence, and it was in turn replaced by the minority Labor government of John Curtin in 1941.

p/s BTW, Earle Page's middle name was Christmas!

.

Peter Dutton – Political Stirrer or Miracle-man ?

.

We have just sown deep shame and disappointment among our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who overwhelmingly voted yes in the referendum.

Their “statement from the heart” has been brutally rebuffed and rejected by our massive NO vote.

As nature has it : “we reap what we sow”. Good decisions lead to good consequences and bad decisions lead to bad consequences.

We’ll just have to wait now and see how things work out. Hopefully, there will be good consequences.

You never know, miracles do happen !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z26BvHOD_sg&t=39s&ab_channel=MarioNicolaMisino

.

Kudos ttbn, Indyvidual, Bezza, mhaze, Josephus, Armchair Critc. Peter Dutton is looking more presidential and getting daily airtime. Kudos to Peter Dutton on stepping up- there is a learning process- his experience in the police force and in business will be useful as PM.

In a rapid about fact the Noalition leader Dud Dutton quickly walked away from his promise of a second referendum question giving Aboriginal and Torres Strait people recognition in the old white mans constitution. You can judge the mans commitment to principles and his sincerity of purpose when he simply looks at the political best option that he sees will advantage him.

Albo made a terrible political blunder, you never ask a question in politics unless you know the answer. The question should have been a simple la-di-da, feel good, question of recognition and it would have been an overwhelming 'Yes'. Everyone could then pat themselves on the back and all the white elites could tell each other how good they are to the poor old black fella.

And so Dutton should walk away from his silly idea of having ANOTHER referendum to 'recognise' aborigines, for what?

That that they did nothing for the country, or with the country, for 60,000 years?

That Australia is the only continent whose indigenous inhabitants never devised a written language?

What a joke!

On the matter of 'most Australians support recognition of aborigines' in the manner of Tony Abbott's proposed preamble to the Constitution, I can't find any evidence that this is true.

Is there a poll somewhere indicating this? Nothing to do with the now dead Voice; just the yada yada yada of Abbott's drone.

In 2019, there was a poll saying the majority supported 'recognition', but that was back when some thought is should be IN the Constitution, which would have just as absurd as the Voice, the Constitution being merely a rule book and agreement among the states.

I do not support recognition of aborigines or anyone else; and I don't believe that I'm the only one of 26 million Australians who feels that way.

Recognition would do nothing for anybody, except irritate and divide, if not quite as much as the Voice would have done if it had not got the rejection it deserved.

Here we all are giving our very different views
on issues that perhaps we wouldn't otherwise
even have considered or thought of earlier.
At least the issues are now out in the open and
being discussed. Perhaps we can all learn something?

I'm happy that this has all come out. That we can now
look at what happens next. And as Banjo Paterson
points out - Miracles can and do happen!"

Certainly mistakes have been made - but it was well worth
a shot. And that's how we learn and grow.

As for Peter Dutton? I don't see his political career
rising to the top job.

Stay positive folks - this is not over. There will be more
to come. Our First Nations people are a resilient mob.

I'm certain that there are even better outcomes ahead.
After all Australians have always got it right in the
end. This will be no exception.

Peter Dutton's record is not a good one as a future
leader of this country.

As Minister for Immigration, for years he ran Australia's
system of off shore detention camps, thereby causing untold
pain and devastation to thousands of innocent people. They
became known as torture camps which included a large
number of suicides and deaths through the lack of proper
medical care.

His reputation took a toll when he walked out on Kevin
Rudd's 2007 Apology to the Stolen Generations. Then his
over all record is not a good one. He made derogatory
remarks about Lebanese people - saying there were too many
of them in this country and that they were terrorists.

His remarks against Africans terrorizing Melburnians were
a complete fabrication as were his bigoted statements
towards refugees being illiterate. He opposed same-sex
marriage and now we have his stance on our First Nations
people.

Not a good record and example - for inclusion and
unification as a leader of an egalitarian nation
proclaiming a Fair Go for all.

The country needs a leader who would unite us all - not a
political stirrer who would divide

Until the renegades stop talking of racial division by 'them' and "us" there will not be any settled Australia. A flourishing society functions as one cooperating family. We need to recognize 1967 made all born in this Country as one and equal. There is No first nation, the 300+ tribes who were here were recognized equally as part of Australia in 1967. They should be treated as full citizens of Australia, not as a separate Nation needing a treaty. They have been incorporated as full citizens, with equal rights and responsibilities as any citizen. We cannot make treaties with ourselves as they are fully incorporated into our society.

The radical left wants to divide Australia and create conflict as to change the Constitution.

One time Labor Senator, Stephen Conroy has labelled the Greens Party as "filth" for accusing Israel of war crimes in Parliament.

ttbn,

Queensland senator Pauline Hanson fought back tears recounting her 2003 jailing over quashed political corruption charges, blaming Tony Abbott and John Howard for a "political witch-hunt" against her. Well, you say we should be voting for Hanson, is she lying in saying Abbott and Howard ran a political witch hunt against her. As for Stephen Conroy, one Labor minister privately described Conroy as being in the wrong party, more right wing than the far right of the Liberal Party. But it takes all kinds, with all sorts of opinions.

BTW, what does Conroy make of the now 1,000 dead Palestinian children at the hands of the Israeli death squads. When you start indiscriminately bombing non-combatant men, women and children, I would call you "filth", just I would call those who butchered innocent Israelis, "filth".

Hi Paul,
I just listened to Hanson giving her 2 cents worth about the Voice and an support for an audit of indigenous spending.

Aussies Voted No! This Is What We Should Do Next.
http://youtu.be/Dmyuq7g8-JE

Peter Dutton fails to find support for audit of government’s Indigenous spending
http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/17/peter-dutton-fails-to-find-support-for-audit-of-governments-indigenous-spending

Personally I think an audit is a practical place to start.
To my line of thinking and I'm not sure I'm correct, but an audit wouldn't just show how much is being spent, but itemise what the money is being spent on.

I think it would be useful information to have if you were to look at where we go from here, that is if we're actually serious about making sure the money is spent on things that produce the best results.

Why is it that Labor is blocking this after it's attempt has failed?
Doesn't it just waste more time to come up with and implement better solutions?

Paul

Well that's a spray. I mention what an ex-politician says about certain Greens (there were a couple of Teals who earned the title too) and you drag up Pauline, who, I thought the other day, didn't have much to say about the Voice. I learnt afterwards that she was disappointed by the fact that she wasn't invited/allowed to write a few words for a pamphlet. Maybe she got the huff and said, "Bugger youse".

She has nothing to do with what Conroy said about the Greens (she would have a lot worse to say). But you seem to be fascinated by the woman, so I'll try to answer your totally irrelevant questions.

. I don't say you or anyone else should be voting for her. One Nation is just one of the options I suggested.

. She is not lying. Howard, and possibly Abbott, stitched her up. Howard was s… frightened of her.

. Whoever in the Labor Party thought Conroy was right wing should have switched over to the Greens if they thought that,

. There is no "far right" of the Liberal Party. There is no right wing of the Liberal Party. Most of them should join the Greens.

. I don't have a clue what Conroy thinks about anything else. Just his opinion of the Greens is one that attracted my attention.

. Who you choose to call "filth" is up to you.

It really has been a stark contrast between Dutton and Albo hasn't it.

Albanese stayed the course even when there were loud calls to postpone the referendum. Why? Because it was a firm election commitment and he made sure he fulfilled it, something which has become increasingly rare among political leaders.

Dutton on the other hand made a commitment for a second referendum on Indigenous recognition in the Constitution and immediately walked it back when the No vote prevailed.

It clearly illustrates what a venal man he really is and how little commitments mean to him.

For that alone he should be despised by those who bang on about how untrustworthy politicians are on OLO. But no, they will make up the usual conga line licking his boots.

It really is pathetic.

"It really has been a stark contrast between Dutton and Albo hasn't it" SR. Yes SR you are right about that.

You could see the conniving shining our of Albanese, along with his hate for the ordinary Ozzie who won't fall for the hard left push.

Dutton may have poor presentation, making him less than effective, but he is not after the average citizen's guts & life style. Lets hope more Ozzies wake up to what a nasty hateful little man Albo is.

.

Foxy describes Dutton as “not a good record and example - for inclusion and unification as a leader of an egalitarian nation proclaiming a Fair Go for all”.

Jusephus declares : “until the renegades stop talking of racial division by 'them' and "us" there will not be any settled Australia. A flourishing society functions as one cooperating family”.

SteeleRedux observes : “Dutton … made a commitment for a second referendum … and immediately walked it back when the No vote prevailed …illustrat[ing] what a venal man he really is and how little commitments mean to him”.

The Essential Report indicates the main reason “to vote No” was : “It will divide Australia in the constitution on the basis of race” – which, of course, is already the case :

http://ulurustatement.org/professors-and-voice-advocates-highlight-racist-elements-already-in-australias-constitution/
.

The majority of non-indigenous voters considered the YES vote as racially discriminating and the majority of indigenous voters considered the NO vote as racially discriminating.

It’s a catch-22 situation in which everybody has a valid but often conflicting argument.

Nevertheless, as the declared objective is the same for everybody, it should be possible to find common ground for compromise despite the current divergent points of view.
.

For the sake of ttbn who “can't find any evidence” of “Tony Abbott's proposed preamble to the Constitution”, here is a video of his Sky News interview by Paul Murray in 2022 in which he declared :

« … the right recognition would be something like inserting in the preamble after the words ‘one indissoluble federal commonwealth’, something like this: ‘With an Indigenous heritage, a British foundation and an immigrant character’, because all these three things are undoubtedly true.” » :

http://www.skynews.com.au/opinion/paul-murray/tony-abbott-very-much-in-favour-of-recognising-indigenous-people-in-constitution/video/1b193c5fbf6a3e276d3ba31c2975525d

.

Once again - Thank you all for your diverse points
of view. We can be grateful that in this country we
are able to agree or disagree without resorting to
violence. Hopefully that will continue to be true
into the future. Hatred and terrorism we need to
keep at bay. And with the right leadership we should
be able to do so. Choosing divisive leadership ,
especially anyone who displays bullying tactics with
a total lack of compassion is not wise. We need to
only look at what's happening in other parts of the
world. We don't want this to happen here.

We need leaders who keep their promises, who are
willing to consult and negotiate, and who are for
inclusion not division. Peter Dutton falls short on all
counts.

Dear Hasbeen,

How's it going old cock? Good?

So nothing in your post about politicians keeping election promises. That used to be huge for you back in the day. What's happened? Do you just not care anymore?

I do. I hold politicians who keep their promises in higher stead than those who don't. I am particularly disdainful of those who make promises to support their position on an issue then drop them as soon as the issue has been resolved in their favour.

You obviously aren't.

But look, if that is your standard now then so be it. However I will say that once your views were at least backed up with a little integrity even if I disagreed with them, it is hard to see it now

Typical Paul style he supports Hamas, "BTW, what does Conroy make of the now 1,000 dead Palestinian children at the hands of the Israeli death squads. When you start indiscriminately bombing non-combatant men, women and children, I would call you "filth", just I would call those who butchered innocent Israelis, "filth"."

You cannot get your facts right; Israel is not bombing indiscriminately non-Combatants. It has targeted attacks on Hamas strongholds and has warned Palestinians to move South. Israel has every right to destroy their enemy who murdered 1,400 noncombatants/ beheaded innocent babies and shot children and took 164 captives as shields.

"How's it going old cock? Good?"

How boring that has become! SR is like talking clock, wound up by a human when he or she has something to nasty to say. If the human with the key had just copied and pasted the very first post at regular intervals, we would still know everything he/she has to say about people, the world and events.

All of us living safely in Australia should try
not to take sides in this conflict. There's enough
of denial and blaming the other side as it is.
We don't need to add our opinions to this seemingly
unsolveable situation. Attacking each other does not
help. It makes things worse by arousing even more
negativity.

This is not about us. It's about the abused now
becoming the abusers. And that can apply to
both sides. Mediation won't take place until stronger
and more flexible leadership is found. Lets try to
encourage not discourage mediation. As I posted
earlier - and quoted Gandhi -
"An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind."

Anyone who is not against Hamas in this conflict is obviously a terrorist sympathiser, no ifs no buts if you aren't against Hamas. They also chose to endanger civilians by sighting their concentrations amid civilians.

Appeasement emboldened Hitler, & will do the same today with Hamas. Israel must do a thorough job of eliminating Hamas if it's people are to be safe.

Hasbeen,

Too right. There only two sides to this conflict: Israel and Hamas terrorists. It's one or the other. In wars, civilians get killed on both sides. And in this war, the killing of civilians on both sides is down to the terrorists, who actually started the conflict by killing civilians, not soldiers. This seems to be too hard to work out for the bleating, Richard Head Leftists on OLO.

This conflict has been ongoing since the formation of
the state of Israel. And it looks doubtful that it's
going to end anytime soon. Britannica has a great
deal on all the conflicts and causes for anyone
interested in finding out the history. And once you do
taking sides becomes more difficult.

The Australian government is doing its best to
maintain a balanced position regarding the
conflict, fully supporting Israel's right to
defend itself but also being against extremists on
both sides. Considering the history of these regions,
that's becoming more and more difficult.

There is nothing "extreme" about a legitimate, democratic government defending itself and country and people against terrorism. This "both sides" bullshite is utterly insane, naive and stupid.

We have to sift the myths from the facts without
allowing our emotions and biases to get the better
of us. Of course often that's easier said than
done.

There are archives available that record the
history of the region and it's ongoing conflicts.
Histories that clearly show that
it has been a troubled area for decades. And trying
not to finger-point or take sides, can't really in
all fairness be described as being stupid. Merely attempting
to be fair and factual.

The recent bombing of the hospital in Gaza
the Israeli Defence Force is blaming Hamas. However
it's been found that the hospital was warned by
Israeli forces to evacuate just before the bombing.
Doctors refused due to the over crowding of
the emergency department. Then the hospital was
bombed.

Israel is claiming it wasn't them.

Bombing a hospital is against international law,
and could be considered a war crime.

But then depriving innocent civilians of food, water,
and aid is also against international law. Perhaps the
US President will be able to point that out? I doubt
if he would consider it stupid.

BTW:

Israel with being bent on expanding its
illegal settlements and deepening its system
of apartheid to increase its terrible repression
and violence in order to keep the Palestinians down
or force them out of their homeland can no longer be
described as a democracy by any stretch of imagination.
And those who attempt to do so I won't use the word
Stupid - but misinformed or ignorant would be appropriate.

Jose,

You lie again, and how many times have you done that on this forum! Dozens! Where have I posted support for the murderous Hamas, I say Zionist murderers are as despicable as Hamas murderers. I have no truck with either.

"Palestinian officials say at least 500 people were killed in an Israeli air raid on Al-Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza." The Israeli's deny responsibility, but it doesn't matter whether the attack was deliberate or unintentional it was a another despicable act of war against innocent people!

Of course YOU and others would be over the moon to think 500 plus, less than human Palestinians, have be killed in revenge! That's what YOUR TYPE get off on!

Hamas blew up the hospital, either by accident with their makeshift rockets, or purposefully to get sympathy.

Israel has never targeted civilian infrastructure, except when Hamas were using it as shields. Unlike Hamas they just don't do it.

The rocket which was launched by the Jihadi terrorist group, which I
think is not Hamas, lost control and came back over the launch site
and landed in the Hospital car park.
Apparently minor damage to the hospital.
Two terrorist overheard discussing the incident, "Was it us ?"
Probably every frequency used by the terrorists is monitored.
There would have been radio silence before the 7th Oct attack.

If Hamas is eliminated, another group will form, as required by the Koran.

Confirmed tonight. The rocket that accidentally took out the hospital was one of Hamas's own. NOT Israeli. With friends like Hamas, Palestinians don't need enemies.

"The Voice debate managed to remove all of Albanese’s other manifest failings from the front pages, for a time. No doubt, he will now be exposed to much greater scrutiny." (Paul Collits)

. Absence of a proper COVID inquiry
. The housing debacle
. The costs of rampant immigration
. The cost-of-living crisis
. The scandal of Aboriginal funding mis-management
. The limp responses to Arab terrorism,

just for starters.

Hi SteeleRedux,

"Albanese stayed the course even when there were loud calls to postpone the referendum. Why? Because it was a firm election commitment and he made sure he fulfilled it, something which has become increasingly rare among political leaders.

Dutton on the other hand made a commitment for a second referendum on Indigenous recognition in the Constitution and immediately walked it back when the No vote prevailed."

I've got to give you some credit here.
I had actually made a mental note of both of these things but never voiced an opinion about it.

I remember when I first came to the forum, quite a few years back now.
I argued we needed to build a big fancy prison for politicians that didn't keep their election promises.
That they have to keep their word in regards to the commitments they made in their campaigns, and if they wanted to go against their election promises they had to present their new policy to the Australian people and could only implement the new policy after a new election and the support of the Australian people for that new policy.

Go against election promises, go to jail.
A nice jail, but a jail nonetheless.

I argued that democracy itself is nothing but a sham, and that politicians are nothing but 'used car salesmen' if they could make all these promises to be voted into power, and then discard those promises the second they we're elected and just do whatever they want.

FYI, I voted no in the referendum.

I don't like it that Dutton made that promise to win voters over to the 'No' side, and then backtracked the minute the 'No' campaign won out.
I wouldn't put him in jail for it, because he's not been voted into power,
But it shows he can't be trusted and for that I feel he too has to go.

The issues ttbn listed here I agree with,
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=22696#392873
But I think their situation does require more attention.
- I think they do need more of a hand up, and less of a handout.

If Peter Dutton is the best that the Coalition has to
lead then their future does not look great.
There must be someone out there that's a better choice.
This man alienates so many. And under him we shall never
have a united country. Division and exclusion is what he
stand for.

Poor losers, the Yes mob. Their huge loss is is down to things and people other themselves; not their fault or the absurdity of the Voice in the first place.

The latest laugh is half-masting a flag that didn’t exist ten minutes ago, but now flaps all over the place as though it is official.

They may as well half-mast their trousers; the result is in, and that's the end of the whole silly waste of time and money.

"They may as well half-mast their trousers'

- Well that would have to be the funniest thing I've heard in the last few days. [smiles]
Good job ttbn.

Dutton would make a better leader of the country than the idiot Albozo. but that is a low bar.

Take one look at the Noalition's front bench, unfortunately until 'Charlie The Chimp' gets a guernsey Dud Dutton is the best on offer! Ahhhhh! What's the name of that squawky little sheila they call the deputy leader! What a pain whenever she asks a question.

Public enemy number one is Albanese, not Dutton, who has no power whatsoever. This the morning:

"Australia’s inept and appalling Prime Minister should turn his attention from loony fantasies about Indigenous brotherhood and towards the real problems faced, both here and at a distance."

Better still, he has had his chance he blew it, he should be sacked.

The Prime Minister kept his election promise.
Despite all the flack he received doing it.
That shows character. And now his attention has
turned to the other important issues facing the
country. And he will deal with them in his
usual competent, way - by listening to expert
advice and by negotiation. He believes in being
inclusive - all important traits for a leader.

The same can't be said for the leader of the
Opposition and his supporters. It won't be long
before challenges for his current leadership will happen.
There are better people around.

Ovine devotion to Albanese - or any other politician - is pathetic, and typical of the weakness of the collective Left, who need to be told what to do.

There is nothing admirable about keeping a divisive, racist election promise, obstinately sticking to it and spending huge amounts on it when it was obviously doomed, and could have been dropped, thereby saving a lot of angst, division and hatred - and now offers of paid leave and counselling to poor, silly weak people. Lots of damage has been done by lots of idiots carrying out their promises. Just look at promises carried out in Nazi Germany, and currently in the Middle East, with promises to wipe out Israel being again put into practice.

Albanese's actions certainly show his character: very poor.

Albanese is not "competent", and there is nothing "expert" about his advisers.

Aspersions against the opposition leader - even if they are right - are irrelevant and childish; they certainly don't make any difference to the current leader of this country, who is a disgrace.

I would love to agree.

But then we'd both be wrong!

The fact that nauseous negativity, and cruel
misinformation has dominated the public discourse
over the last months is as deplorable as it is
depressing. Yet in a country with a racist history
like Australia it was also entirely predictable.

Of course the Prime Minister and his team should have
responded stronger, using cannonballs instead of Halmark
cards. But he was sure Australians would understand
a long overdue message. He should have countered the
outbursts of great Australian ugliness. He chose not to.

How he will behave in the future? We have to wait and
see. One thing we can depend on. He will always put this
nation's interests ahead of his own.

Not many leaders do that.

God Labor can pick the no hopers can't they.

Whitlam.
Rudd.
Gillard.
Albanese.
Four total deadheads out of six, & Keating probably belongs there. He is the one who sent so many hard working folk broke with his 17% interest rates.

By comparison only one from the Libs, Turnbull, a full deadhead if ever there was one, but Albanese trumps them all.

God help our grand kids.

Hi Hasbeen,

Just a reminder in case you've forgetten.
It was under Whitlam that Medibank was founded
which became Medicare under Hawke. It was under
Whitlam that uni fees were abolished. That the
White Australia Policy ended. That there was equity
in funding for state and private schools. There
was also land rights for our Indigenous people and
funding for Australian Arts - and the list goes on.

Then Kevin Rudd signed the Kyoto Protocol. Gave
the apology to the Stolen Generations. Helped save
Australia from recession with his stimulus packages,
Paid parental leave came into being.

Under Gillard the Royal Commission into Institutional
Childe Sexual Abuse was established. As was the NDIS -
the National Disability Insurance Scheme. Then she put into
place funding reforms in education - Gonski. We had tobacco
plain packaging bill, and this was all achieved with a
minority government. Not bad for a female PM.

As for our current PM? Well, apart from the Indigenous
Voice to Parliament the man has invested in improving
relations in our Pacific region. With France and China.
He's invested in our security with AUKUS - US Uk and
Australia). He's updated Australia's climate change
targets, Supported an increase in the national minimum
wage. Legislated an anti-corruption commission. Has given
support to Ukraine. And there's even more to come.

Save your prayers for our grand-children for later. They don't
currently need them. The country is now in good hands.

Yes indeed! The "nauseous negativity, and cruel misinformation" from the Government and its supporters has "dominated the public discourse over the last months". Albanese and his gang need to be brought to book for it. Those using that tiresome word "misinformation" are the very ones spreading lies and doing all the mis-informing. It's an old trick of habitual liars to accuse other people of the things they do themselves.

A majority of Australians didn't fall for it this time and, guess what? The misinformers are blaming the majority for not falling for bulls-t that they thought we would swallow, when they should be taking a good hard look at themselves and their arrogant ignorance in treating voters like fools.

It's quite obvious now who the real fools are: Albanese and the Left in general. Even a large percentage of Labor voters didn't fall for the con.

After all that has happened - the most division ever in our nation - one of the fools now says that we can "depend on" the worst PM ever to "put this
nation's interests ahead of his own". No wonder such people are easy marks for dictators.

More personal attacks from our self-proclaimed
"truth teller."

I'll let his posting record shout for itself.

LOL!

Remember when the Voice was first posted it rated 60%+ in the polls and continually slipped as people understood the consequences of dividing Australia into an apartheid State. Information frees the mind, so by the end the Voice rated 40%, and intelligent people won. We are all Australians with equal opportunities and personal responsibilities. Logical information has given people the facts including many aboriginals who do not wish to be identified as different / primitive.

There are many reasons for why the Voice referendum did
not succeed. And, we've heard most of them. What happens
next we have to wait and see. Indigenous people are a
resilient mob and will continue to fight for their rights.
As one Indigenous leader put it:

"Talk not of recognition or reconciliation. Only of
justice and the rights of our people in our own country."

Laugh out loud it is. Post a personal opinion then complain about personal attacks. Any disagreement is an 'attack'. Then pretend that the 'attacker' is a "self-proclaimed truth teller." My memory is not what it used to be, but I don't think that I have ever proclaimed myself to be a truth-teller. Unlike the aggrieved 'victim' of all these "personal attacks", I don't think that I've revealed personal details that I don't think that anyone outside my family needs to know or care about. If the aggrieved was a library shelf-stacker in Queensland, she could get five days paid stress leave for the shocking experience caused by the loss of the Voice referendum; or, had she been a male cricketer in the Australian 11, she could have had counselling. As things stand for the forty-percenters, suck it up.

Hasbeen

Throughout history, we have had a lot of 'worst ever' Prime Ministers; but the current incumbent puts them all in the shade. He is appalling! He has not a single redeeming feature: no personality, a whiny voice, turned down gob, and a permanent chip on his shoulder that he is taking out on everyone except aboriginal activists and the Matildas (although he's probably gone off them since they came fourth, or whatever it was). The man is a waste of space.

However, I don't think the other side has had much to offer since John Howard. In fact, we really haven't had any decent Prime Ministers since Howard and Hawke.

ttbn,

You're telling me to "suck it up?"

Your advice of "suck it up"
is a foolish grumble. And as for suggesting the
job of some sort of book-stacker?

Thank-you. But you can't even begin to imagine
the jobs I've held over two continents. So
give it a rest. It's beyond your comprehension
and limited life experience.

Now that the Voice referendum is finished, the next thing to be knocked in the head is the government's censorship Bill. They didn't have the guts to put that to a referendum, and we are at the mercy of politicians with this. Politicians are to be the only people who can decide whether the thoughts and opinions of 26 million people can be suppressed by calling them 'misinformation'.

Two months after the deadline for submissions and comments on this communist/totalitarian Bill - first mooted by the previous government - less than one thousand of twenty three thousand submissions have been released to the public.

Get off your arses and contact your local members and state senators, before we get much closer to Communist China.

Advance Front and Centre, the organisation that helped to destroy the divisive Voice, advises that the people behind the Voice are regrouping and looking to make criminal what they regard as 'misinformation' - that’s anything they disagree with.

These people cannot win if they don't silence their opponents; and they will never accept that their idea of using the Constitution to divide us was deemed a very bad idea by the majority of Australians. They are out for revenge.

If you value freedom of speech for everyone - not just an elite few - there is an open letter to be signed at advanceaustralia.org.au.

I have sent personal letters to senators and my federal member.

Do it while you still can. Politicians are not your friends.

Any reform that Labor brings to the national debate is
met with a Liberal-led lie-infested scare campaign,
amplified by their media mates and walked past by the
rest of the media.

When lying is framed as a clever campaigning strategy,
and the victims of those lies are criticized for not
countering them well enough the media adjudicators show
they don't have the ability to inform a healthy democratic
debate, and instead contribute to its destruction.

If anyone wants to really know about the misinformation
Labor Bill - do your own research. It just may surprise you
as to what it really entails.

"Any reform that Labor brings to the national debate is
met with a Liberal-led lie-infested scare campaign,
amplified by their media mates and walked past by the
rest of the media."

This is nonsense. There is nothing 'reforming' about restricting freedom of speech. There has been no "national debate" on the matter. And the non-Labor side does not have "media mates", most of the media being a megaphone for the Left.

What "lying"? What lies have been told about the 'Communications Legislation Amendment (Combatting Misinformation and Disinformation) Bill 2023'?

If lies can be identified, who are the "victims of those lies"?

The "media adjudicators"? Who are they? Since when did the media adjudicate anything? The media is a leader in the area of 'misinformation'; that’s why they would be exempt from censorship; the Bill would suit them; they broadcast misinformation for the political class. The Covid lies were put about by the media. We haven't seen the media pushing for a Royal Commission into all the now obvious lies they aired during Covid. The media is far too cosy with the political class - something common in totalitarian states.

"If anyone wants to really know about the misinformation
Labor Bill - do your own research. It just may surprise you
as to what it really entails."

If you want to be a shill for the Bill, you really should be able to tell us what your own research of it reveals, and what it is that might "surprise" us.

Once again the myths need to be separated from the
facts. Why is Labor's disinformation bill so
controversial? Because as the Voice Referendum has shown,
we have a toxic, broken media institution where lies are
not only excused but are characterized as clever political
campaigning - and even worse, the victims of the scare
campaigns are blamed for its effectiveness.

The Voice Referendum was not the first time the Labor Party
has met a Liberal-News Corp scare campaign. The mining
tax, the carbon price, fracking credits, electric vehicles,
industrial relations, the list goes on.

We all saw the questionable activities both on this forum and
in the media. The length of the Uluru Statement, Uluru's
"hidden pages," and plenty of "stuff" of hidden agendas, treaties,
of compensations, land rights, dividing the country by race,
and again the list went on.

So as stated earlier - any reform that Labor brings to the
national debate is met with a Liberal-led lie-infested scare
campaign - amplified by their media mates, shock jocks and
supporters. This bill is no exception.

The fact that this bill does not impinge on any freedom of
speech. It does not grant powers to silence anyone and merely
calls media platforms to account seems to have been missed
by those opposing the bill. But that's the way the political
game seems to be played by people who have nothing else to
offer.

If I may be permitted to weigh in here Foxy,

I'd like to argue that the Labor party lead an actual shambles of a campaign that had little hope of succeeding anyway.

I argued several things right in the beginning.

1. That the government brought the referendum to the people.
- And that it was their job to SELL IT TO US on it's own merits.
It was no-ones obligation to buy what they were selling, that's democracy.

2. As far as merit was concerned...
They didn't even hash out the details or want to give / show us the full details of how it would work before it even passed.
Without meaning to offend, I think only a foolish person would sign on the bottom line of any contract without reading the fine print.

On merit, what hope did it really have?
- No matter what level of 'we need to do this' 'once in a generation opportunity'.. emotional manipulation campaign on the 'Yes' side?

And without bi-partisan support it was doomed.
We COULD all say 'Yeah Albo's a decent bloke, he's a man of principle and he kept his word in regard to election promises made to the people of Australia'
(though many wouldn't)

But in truth it was still a fools errand from the get-go.
Essentially what they wanted was an Indigenous advisory body enshrined into the constitution.
My concern was what would happen when our elected leaders and this advisory body disagreed.
High court challenges at huge expense with a risk that now our elected leaders would themselves would be overridden by this body.
It would've meant the END OF DEMOCRACY.

Having Ray Martin jumping up and down like a crazed chimpanzee screaming about 'If you vote no, vote no' is such a horrible slogan demonstrates just how poorly the whole thing really was.

The onus was on the government to sell it on it's own merits, and they failed, simple.
That wasn't the 'No' sides fault in any way whatsoever.
- No matter what the 'Yes' side claims when they want to attribute blame.

How did the failure of the Voice referendum show that "we have a toxic, broken media institution where lies are not only excused but are characterized as clever political campaigning - and even worse, the victims of the scare campaigns are blamed for its effectiveness".

. What lies were told?
. Who excused these lies?
. What scare campaigns ?
. Who were the victims of these scare campaigns?
. What do you mean by the alleged victims being blamed for its effectiveness? It's assumed that you mean the effectiveness of what you allege were scare campaigns.
. Was it not a majority of Australian voters who rejected the Voice; made up their own minds?

How is the "Liberal-News Corp reporting on unpopular proposals such as a mining tax, a carbon price, a "scare campaign", when it was the Labor Party doing the 'scaring' by threatening to put further burdens on industry and the economy?

Why cannot fracking credits, electric vehicles, industrial relations, and the list that you claim goes on, be discussed by the media?

Why can't the media put an opinion different from the Labor Party's to its readers?

Why is it that the Opposition cannot have opinions other than those of the Government without being accused of conducting a "lie-infested scare campaign - amplified by their media mates, shock jocks and supporters", just because the 'media mates', 'shock jocks' and 'supporters' are not your ABC, your Guardian or other ALP supporters such as yourself?

Are you that naive that you really believe social media will not suppress freedom of speech on their platforms and risk enormous fines?

Will you demonstrate your knowledge, citing the appropriate sections of the Bill, proving your claims about its 'innocence' when you answer the above questions?

AC

Very good points. Let's see if we get some answers.

Hi Armchair Critic,

Thank you for sharing your views.

It's been a testing time for all of us.

I had such high hopes for the Voice Referendum.
I was so certain that most Australians would be
able to sift the myths from the facts and
recognize that what was being asked was to give
our First Nations people justice and rights in
their own country - to which they were entitled
as First Nations people.

In any case - what happens next - we shall have to
wait and see. I stand by the fact that the NO
campaign was run on twisting and turning around
the facts. I agree that the YES campaign struggled with
their messaging and it didn't get through with the
general Australian community. Not understanding what
exactly it was.

The full truth was not heard.

As Katharine Murphy stated = Peter Dutton is Australia's
figurehead of fear and fake news, like Trump but without
charisma:

http://theguardian.com/australia-news/commentisfree/2023/oct/14/peter-dutton-is-australias-figurehead-of-fear-and-fake-news-like-trump-but-without-charisma

As for the Misinformation / Disinformation Bill

First you have a war with China in the works,
- The government has a vested interest in stifling any dissent as nations pick sides.

Then you have the 'fascism factor'
- That is the big media companies want to stamp out any views that may be voiced by the alternative media, so that it bolsters their own news readership.
"You get your news from us and no-one else - we tell you what to think"

I can tell you that there is too much censorship as it is, and this power is already misused in the worst kind of ways, to stifle genuine news and information sources that other vested interest don't like.
- Because they wish to control the narrative, not allow people to actually be informed.

And the result?
We get biased information and everyone ends up at everyone elses throats, the whole nation polarised because genuine points of view are not permitted to be taken into consideration in the first place.

Even the reasons they give for the need for censorship now barely hold any weight.
They just fined Elon Musk some 600+ thousand...
- And every single post on twitter has a 'report' button.
next time I post a link

People misuse it to stifle others opinions more often than not, rather than the content actually representing any real danger.

- That means it's being misused for the wrong reasons, and not the good reasons for which they told us there was a genuine need for it.

They main use of censorship to control the narrative,
Making arguments like 'protecting children from sexual predators' is merely the justification they give for doing so.

Armchair Critic,

Here's a link as to why Labor's Bill on combating
disinformation so controversial:

http://theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/01/why-is-labors-bill-on-combating-disinformation-so-controversial

It's worth a read.

"The full truth was not heard."
- Like I said the government brought this to the people.
It was their job to sell it to the citizenry on a basis of it's own merits.
On such a divisive issue - what happened during the campaign;
Things that were said that you felt was fear campaign and scaremongering
- Should've been anticipated by the government, and it shows they were ill-prepared.

If there's any consolation I can offer you about the result
Then it's the fact that there were 'Yes' votes and that in an of itself shows that Australians aren't heartless people and that they do care about the plight of our indigenous people;

And that's important, but what matters now is where we go from here

Will the government allow other things that might help us find a way so that the problems can be better managed into the future, in hopes of better eventual outcomes?
Or will they jump up and down claiming racism and hamstring any other potential moves in that direction.
- That is the question.

I know there are sensitive issues, but if we don't face up to them how can we ever arrive at a better place for all?
And even as a 'No' voter, I genuinely hope that things do improve for the indigenous people as we move forward from all this.

AC,

Sorry - I left out a bit. Here's the link again:

http://theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/01/why-is-labors-bill-on-combating-disinformation-so-controversial#

AC,

Thank you for your civil and rational comments.

They are appreciated.

Hi Foxy,

The Noalition's front bench is made up of dimwits and numbskulls, Dutton is simply the icing on the cake!

Hi Paul,

Peter Dutton must have supporters within the party
to have been elected as its leader. I find him
rather inappropriate. There are probably lots of people
who'd never vote for him. Just as there are people
who'd never vote for Albanese.

I have voted Liberal quite a few times at both
state and federal levels. But that was a while ago.
Recently - No. I don't trust the recent choices that
we have. But who knows what tomorrow will bring?

Younger candidates are coming forward - and hopefully
our choices will be better in the future. Younger outlooks.
With better policies and outcomes. I would like to see
more negotiation and agreement amongst our politicians.
And less politics. But that's probably wishful thinking
on my part.

Look at the end of the day I think the best outcome that could've happened did happen.

And all the bickering doesn't even matter.
We can live and learn.

It's actually a win for our country and for our democracy if you can find a way to see things a different way.
The 'No' vote won the day and that was a good thing.
The alternative was that we might have unelected bureaucrats dictating policy to the elected.
- But the 'Yes' vote got significant support too.
Certainly enough to show that we need to find better ways to address the issue, and not discard the issue entirely.

What's the alternative to a referendum?
- That might be where both parties take the peoples choice under advisement, and both sides sit down and actually focus on a great policy that takes all points of view into account.

It doesn't need to be a 400 million dollar loss if lessons are learned and it pushes us in the right direction in a more unified and agreeable way.

I voted 'No', but I'm also glad that some of you voted 'Yes'.
- Because that means that people of this country do have the will to find ways that better the lives of Australia's indigenous people.
But it's got to be the right way, something that we can ALL agree upon.

If the 'Yes' had've won out it would've been the end of democracy, and we would've had another poorly designed system that created poor results.
Now we have the chance to go back to the drawing board and to find something better.

You really got to learn to cut and paste and remove the 's' Foxy,
(I know you wont, but it won't stop me from telling you every now and again - smile)
Also another hint... test it first in the preview before you post to make sure it's correct.
(right click and choose open in a new tab)

Anyhow, here's the correct link

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/01/why-is-labors-bill-on-combatting-disinformation-so-controversial

The failure of the Voice cannot be pinned on Peter Dutton, as he only asked twenty questions that were never answered. Apart from his role as opposition was to ask questions.

Foxy just cannot understand people can determine facts from lies and deception. The answers were never going to come from the Yes Campaign otherwise it would be only ten percent Yes. The agenda was never revealed, except for those that read the twenty-six pages.

Quote, "I had such high hopes for the Voice Referendum.
I was so certain that most Australians would be
able to sift the myths from the facts and
recognize that what was being asked was to give
our First Nations people justice and rights in
their own country - to which they were entitled
as First Nations people." Lies and Myths.

1. There is no first nation, just warring family tribes.
2. They have equal rights in Australia because they are citizens.
3. They control 41% of Australia tribal lands waterways and beaches.
4.They have equal justice in Australia.
Some do not accept they are citizens of Australia.
Some do not accept Australian justice.

Foxy will not reveal what justice they want. They want their youth who steal cars and smash them up to be sent home not incarcerated as our justice serves.

Hi Foxy,

My local federal member LNP is a real "Mystery Man" to me, I've never met the fella, or had contact, and I can't point to any great achievements from him since he's been in office for most of the past 20 years, including 10 years as part of the Noalition government, that's as far as I can tell who needs him. Unlike our state Labor member, and our local Labor councillor, two terrific women, who are both extremely approachable, don't need to write them a letter, and helpful without even being asked. Although we do ask a lot of them when in need, their time and efforts are freely given, and they are always obliging, no ask is too much.

To give you an example, a good friend Barry, a well known local identity, wanted to resurrect the 'Community Spring Festival' at short notice, with the intention of aiding the charity my wife and I are involved with. The festival had been a long held tradition in our area but had lapsed over time, it had its origins in the 1950's, so I believe. Without the rapid involvement of our two ladies from the Labor Party, and of course Barry's drive and determination, it wouldn't have been the success that it ultimately was, AND... our charity wouldn't have benefited to the tune of $8,000, we were expecting $500 to $1500, we were blown away with $8k, right on Xmas! Maybe if some on here knew what some politicians do, from all political parties, then they might not be the cynical old bastards that they appear to be.

I say to the one who tells us he writes lots of letters to MP's, I say can't you get off your arse and make a difference, rather than popping out worthless words on ya E-mail.

Hi AC,

"Now we have the chance to go back to the drawing board and to find something better." ABSOLUTELY! I voted "YES" not an emphatic YES! but a little yes, with a high degree of amusement. There I observed, mostly well heeled white folk, trying to persuade other mostly well heeled white folk to vote one way or the other on a question of yes or no to changing a document created by now long gone well heeled white folk as to what is best for the badly off Black fella. A people we, well heeled white folk, have been stuffing up for the past 235 years. Now we don't want to spoil our perfect record, do we.

Foxy cannot answer my straight forward questions. She makes assertions that have no substance to them; makes accusations against people without a shred of evidence, and clings to an ideology that she doesn't understand.

Thanks for the list Foxy, I had forgotten some of the dreadful mistakes the labor PMs had made, but you highlighted most of them.

No wonder we are going broke, & heading into unreliable power distribution, for not a single reason.

I'm waiting for the YES crowd to promote initiative & general effort & responsibility to start closing the Gap from their side of the chasm !
The NO crowd has already reached the half-way point by stopping the erosion caused by the referendum !

I wonder if the people who think it's OK to censor 'misinformation' under the Albanese government will think it's OK when another government takes over with a different view of what constitutes 'misinformation'. Like, it might be their palaver that gets censored.

The good news is that the issues regular aussies have with the indigenous are certainly not on the scale of animosity between say Hamas and Israel, or Russia and Ukraine...
And the US, UK, G7 countries + whole of Europe except Hungary and Slovakia...
(and more)

We've seen now that the left and the right need to work together on this.
Working against one another didn't work out so well...

Those political parties instead of fighting with each other need to have their heads knocked together.
After we knock their heads together for a bit, and maybe knock some sense into them, maybe a bit of verbal abuse, they all need to come together and pretend they are all from the same party and come up with solutions.

Emphasis 'solutions' - not necessarily policy
- Unless they can comprehend 'foolproof policies'

It's time they worked out that they're not there to argue amongst themselves getting paid to achieve nothing.
- They serve the Australian people not just their party and it's members.

They're hardly going to be working towards solutions if they are busy fighting with each other, they'll just continue to undermine each other attempts to achieve something, and instead continue to achieve nothing.

Just a few of the events and changes under Albanese so far:

. 11 interest rate rises
. Record high petrol prices
. Higher inflation
. Soaring electricity prices, despite reduction promise
. Lower dollar value
. New taxes on superannuation
. No delivery on 24/7 age care nurses as promised
. More government secretiveness
. Push for internet censorship
. $450 million wasted on a doomed referendum
. Still bringing in immigrants despite housing and infrastructure stall
. Refusal to hold RC on Covid misinformation
. Refusal to hold RC on aboriginal community child abuse

And the turnips want to rubbish Dutton who is in opposition, out of power.

ttbn,
Labor is setting new records on the run !

Lets take a look at our two major current political
parties and their leaderships.

Which one in the majority is welcoming, inclusive and
an engaging party. And, which is in the majority anti
just about everything from giving rights to our
First Nations people, to truth telling of our nation's
history, anti - same-sex marriage, and the list goes on.

Reading some of the posts in this discussion I've just come
to realize that "diarrhea of the mouth", is a direct side
effect of "shyte for brains." Folks, this is a serious
medical condition that some here have.

"diarrhea of the mouth"; "shyte for brains."

Its a wonderous thing to watch Foxy's constant efforts to raise the level of discourse in the group.

There's ttbn singing from the Noalition song sheet once again. The same bloke who was once a promoter of the now defunct far right extremists, Australian Conservative Party, led by Corny Banana. Now on the forum he promotes a vote for racists from One Nation, and a couple of other far right fruit loops including Palmer. In my view, Labor is defective in a number of areas, with both domestic and international policy, but I fail to see Dud Dutton and his Noalition Party as a viable alternative, totally lacking policy and direction. If an election was held tomorrow Labor would romp in. Hopefully the Dud would get rolled in his now marginal seat in Brisbane. that would be justice!

In the seat of Dixon, Dutton relies on the preferences of the racists Hanson's One Nation and Palmers UAP to get over the line with 51.7% of the two party preferred vote. If about 1700 voters in Dixon changed t their preference from LNP to Labor its goodbye Dud!

Paul1405,
Are you actually capable of making up a sentence that doesn't contain a reference to yourself & your ilk ?
I mean it'd be nice to just once see a post that doesn't bring up racism by racists !

Which one in the majority is welcoming, inclusive and
an engaging party. And, which is in the majority anti
just about everything
Foxy,
Going by the way Labor handles the show even without a pandemic is a clear indicator that the Conservatives are the more sober ones at this stage!

Dear Paul,

Talking about standards?

Quite a few political leaders in the past have focused
on divisions. Sometimes over pretty big and fundamental
issues such as immigration and same-sex marriage.

Peter Dutton's stoking division seems to be an end in
itself. And, with the recent defeat of the Voice
Referendum we're seeing a different type of politics for
a whole different kind of Australia.

This is concerning.

Post truth mhaze,

This was pretty dark from you:

"The Australian people had the facts. They probably understood the facts better than you. They also understood that many of the facts were being withheld by the aboriginal industry because they were unpalatable to the Australian people. You and those like you, ignored the lack of facts for reasons that are all too obvious."

You of all people using the word facts multiple times in the one paragraph. You could not bring yourself to acknowledge your 'fact' about the supposed diary of Biden's daughter regarding the timing of her showers was utterly untrue. You have zero credibility where facts are concerned.

Give it a miss.

Paul you are so predictable.

I am not the slightest bit interested in the coalition, in a defunct party, or in One Nation, none of which have any power; they might as well not exist. The important political consideration for me is the appalling Albanese government - that’s the only one that can do anything, and it is doing a very bad job of it. Your nonsense about the Coalition, a party that no longer exists, and One Nation is totally irrelevant. There is only one government at a time. What the others would or wouldn't do means nothing. There is no competition. They might as well not exist with the makeup of the current Parliament. Albanese can do as he pleases, unless he puts a crackpot idea to a referendum.

I have never promoted anyone. I have mentioned options to the duopoly. This is the second time I've had to tell you this; you don't seem to have noticed in your haste to try to shout me down and call me names.

There is no point harping on how bad Dutton is: he is not the Prime Minister, and is unlikely to ever be the Prime Minister, according to you. So, get over him, and enjoy your devotion to Albanese while he's there.

I am not interested in your bulls-t. Amuse yourself with your little chats with Foxy, who loves the attention, and needs support because she is all piss and wind, with her absurd accusations against people with no evidence to support the accusations, and no ability to answer for her mad ramblings.

Relevance again eludes SR.

As to the old issue of Biden's inappropriate showers with his poor daughter, its pretty standard SR there to ignore all the indisputable facts and assert that the whole story is debunked because one aspect can't be absolutely proven.

If you don't want it to be true then find a reason, any reason, to ignore it. Massive amounts of Trump accusations remained disputed but SR believed every one of them. Biden has proven inappropriate showers with kids and SR races to find some reason, any reason, to pretend it didn't happen.

As to relevance (ie the Voice), the facts are that the referendum was doomed because the political elite that SR adheres to thought they could con the public into giving them a blank cheque. They withheld the details of the Voice because they knew they'd never get it through if the details were exposed. People like SR and Foxy fell for that but the Australian public didn't. Elsewhere I noted that I predicted this 14 months ago and pondered why the political elite still thought they could win a 'yes' while withholding the facts. I think it comes down to their disdain for the average voter.

"Peter Dutton's stoking division...."

I'm no Dutton or Liberal fan at the moment but this harping on Dutton being divisive is really pathetic. What people like Foxy are saying is that he should just agree with them and then there'd be no division in the nation.

Just agree with the elite and all divisiveness evaporates. Don't campaign for 'no' because that's divisive. Don't disagree with whatever lame idea emanates from the government because that's divisive. It never occurs to them that disagreeing with Dutton is divisive. But then again nothing much ever occurs to them.

They learned precisely nothing from the referendum. They thought they could propose changes that would be rejected if fully explained and that they'd get it through based on claims of uniting the country. And the country rejected them.

Democracy is about divisiveness. Its the whole point. A contest between two ideas. Those whining about supposed divisiveness don't want open debate,, they want enforced conformity to their opinions.

ttbn is madder than a midget with a yo-yo.

His posting record speaks for itself.
And it's also the reason he gets such a
small response from other posters.

Paul's just stirring - and providing us
with entertainment.

But Paul, Honestly, this forum doesn't need
another mental midget

Of the 12 posters who have taken part in this pointless attack on Peter Dutton, 7 have said NO to the slurs against him; 3 including the accuser have said YES; 1 has gone off topic, and 1 is iffy.

A clear win for Dutton, regardless of his faults.

And, I see, Foxy continues with the Left's way of dealing with dissenters - by denigrating them rather that dealing with the dissent.

She can't answer questions; can't come up with evidence to back her nasty comments about Dutton. She is all piss and wind. The sad old woman's only use is to make sane people realise how well off they are.

If Dutton want the Liberal Party to have a chance
at winning the next election - he needs to change
his tactics. He should try building a longer table,
not a taller fence.

The Left's way of dealing with dissenters?

Not at all. Sometimes when dealing with mental
midgets one has to come down to their level.
But it does get tiresome. And you end up
feeling sorry for the poor devil. Like a midget
at a urinal - some just can't stay on their toes.
And it becomes cruel.

Or boring.

Or both.

Best not to respond.

My husband asks me - "Does anybody actually read what he posts?"

Again - that's being cruel.

As for being a sad old woman?

WHEN I do get old. They're never going to say:

"What a sweet old lady."

They're going to say:

"What on earth is that awesome creature up to now?"

The following link although a year old is still relevant
today:

http://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/stage-3-idiocy-as-leader-of-the-leftovers-lies-again,16853

Foxy,

Why do you think posting highly partisan posts from highly partisan sites is relevant? I appreciate that you go seeking these confirmatory opinions to bolster your hope that you are on the winning side, but its the opposite of truth-seeking and convinces no one but you.

Surely you've, at the very least, considered, given the referendum outcome, that these highly partisan posts from highly partisan sites led you down the garden path. Perhaps not - some people like being down the garden path.

Just once Foxy, I'd like to see some indication that you realise how badly you misjudged the Australian people in regards to the referendum.

mhaze,

Nice try.

However, who should be judged is not the Australian
people but Peter Dutton and his supporters. Read the
link I gave. And you of all people are in no position
to talk about biases. You have been discredited on this
forum.

She's getting frantic now.

Darren Crawford is a surfer, environmentalist, sports coach/administrator and academic.
Foxy,
That explains it all ! A real icon of revenue producing, welfare & wealth contributing member of society !
Sure makes me feel more secure for our economic future !

Foxy,

So that's a big NO to learning anything from the referendum?

"However, who should be judged is not the Australian
people but Peter Dutton and his supporters."

As regards the referendum outcome, the Australian people are his supporters. I know you're trying to convince yourself that the people were conned by the No campaign, but when you make that case you are just denigrating the intelligence of the majority who voted No.

Just tell me that you understood my point about division.

The woman talks about supporters. Her only supporters are the two other left wing nutters on the site. Hundreds of posts - which she treats like notches on a gun butt, or runs on the board, and most of them are her own, most of the others disagreeing with her nonsense. Lots of squealing attempts to justify the unjustifiable from her.

The firm rejection of the Voice has really disturbed the balance of her mind, and exposed her and 40% of Australian voters to be out of touch lunatics. She and they will never recover. And what sort of poor fool needs 'support' for their opinions and ideas on the anonymous internet!

Foxy,

By any measure, Dutton is a better leader than Albozo. Albozo lies continuously and is arrogant. The sooner he is gone the better.

I've just seen a cartoon of the pamphlets of How to vote
YES and how to vote NO - in the Voice Referendum:

1) How to vote YES - write the word "YES" in the box.

2) How to vote NO - write the word you graffitied all
over your neighbours' car and letter boxes in the box.

Lol!

Anyhow, it's obvious - the role that fear and ignorance
played making sure that the Voice Referendum got defeated.
We all heard the lies that Aborigines would take our lands,
raise our taxes, take our houses, ruing our children's
future. That the Uluru Statement was more than one page.
That is had a "hidden agenda," that there were going to be
heaps of "stuff" that we were not told. Reparations,
and the lists went on.

Many of us were frustrated by this ignorance.
In law - ignorance of the law is not a defence. Therefore
you can't defend yourself based on "I didn't know, so
I'm voting NO." But that's how the NO campaign was conducted.
"If you don't know - vote NO!" Instead of "If you don't know
Find out!"

People say they love "freedom of speech." So do I. I do not
like hate speech - of which I am accused. Some have spoken
plenty of that. Free speech for some. No voice for others.

If people need to be angry, and some obviously do. then they
should be angry at Russia, China, Israel, Hamas, and above
all at Peter Dutton leading the race to the bottom to
return to power and there's no lie he won't tell to get
there - as we've seen from this recent Referendum.

A better Prime Minister than our current one?

I prefer someone who contributes something to public life
for the betterment of Australians. Someone who leads the
country and their government predominantly for the people.
Medicare anyone? How's your Super going? Apology to the
Stolen Generation? No worries. And finally at least trying
for a Voice to Parliament. Not someone who leads for the
sake of holding power.

Dutton is such a leader his own team are pushing for senator Jacinta Price to be the next PM. Not Dutton.
In grandiose style, overlooking the fact that she is in the wrong coalition political party so would have to change teams and get elected into a lower house seat before any chance of becoming PM, Jacinta's team are totally rejecting Dutton.
Dutton's team are not backing him for PM - that says a lot.

This obsession with Dutton is unhealthy and pointless. Dutton is no threat to anyone while he's in opposition. The threat is the bloke who is the PM, Anthony Albanese. There are indications that getting rid of Albanese would make the ALP more acceptable in its remaining time in office.

Will Aka provide evidence that Dutton’s "own team" is pushing for Price to be their leader. That "Jacinta's team" is "totally rejecting Dutton". Is Aka a Liberal party insider, or is he or she just making a mess of repeating what has been mused about by the media and casual commentators; all of which is just idle gossip.

I have no interest in Dutton or the Liberal Party. But I believe comments on him and about him, and who said what, should be verifiable: something that has not happened so far in this thread.

" Mr Dutton,

Why are you so adament we should vote "NO" for the
Voice Referendum? "

"To put it simply, the concept of having a voice
is overrated. I know. Having a voice has made no difference
to me."

"Here's a game I like to play
"What can make us scared today?"
Being afraid will take its toll
But makes you easy to control
A daily dose of fear is ample
Take the Voice vote, for example
So be afraid. It isn't hard
Or you're losing your back yard."

( Taken from a cartoon on the web).

The hard Left is known for inventing fictions: fictitious countries: like how Russia was not so bad during the Cold War; Cuba etc, cultures, and people.

It is quite clear that a fictitious Peter Dutton has been invented here.

http://abc.net.au/news/2023-10-17/voice-referendum-infected-disinformation-australians-lies/102981108

http://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/fear-and-ignorance-saw-demise-of-voice-referendum,17996

There's more on the web - if you know how to Google.

This is Peter Dutton as seen by others:

http://theguardian.com/australia-news/commentisfree/2023/oct/14/peter-dutton-is-australias-figurehead-of-fear-and-fake-news-like-trump-but-without-charisma

http://theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/13/voice-referendum-2023-ken-wyatt-accuses-peter-dutton-fear-and-division

This is Peter Dutton as seen by others:
Foxy,
'others' as in non-contributing hangers-on ! Why not advocate for these arty farty Lefties to provide funding for workers who lose their accommodation & jobs because of Labor instead of them perpetually funding the arty farties ? A role reversal would surely make them realise the world they're living in is not a symbiosis !

Poor old Foxy. She doesn't have the intelligence to stop using as 'proof' the ABC and The Guardian; both of which will obviously be pushing the same hard Left ideology as her own. In fact, it's probably where she gets her nonsense from in the first place. Yawn!

The hypocrisy of these people is a wonder to behold.

The government deliberately and knowing went into the referendum while withholding detail about how the Voice would work. Albanese specifically said he wanted to withhold the detail because he'd learned the lesson from the republic referendum.

So a majority of Australians decided that they couldn't support a proposition where the details were unknown and where the details were deliberately withheld because they'd be unacceptable to the majority.

So now the hypocrites are arguing that a decision to not support the 'Yes' side because of lack of detail proves that the whole thing was based on ignorance. In a way that's true, but it was ignorance the government and the aboriginal elite had knowingly and deliberately created.

"While the defeat of the ‘Yes’ campaign is obviously very pleasing, it is only one crucial step in the direction of developing, and thereafter maintaining, a united country. This is because the relentless pressure for special rights for indigenous Australians will undoubtedly continue and may even accelerate. The activists will certainly clamour for constitutional recognition and ever-grander benefits." (Moens & McRobert, 'Hissy Fits for Some, Ongoing Misery for Others', Quadrant Online, 23/10/23).

The Yes people just can't accept the majority of people didn't want those constitutional changes.
They are coming up with every bs excuse to blame the No campaign and No voters when it was always up to them to sell their new policy.

They had way more money and the support of business, yet Aussies weren't buying.

I'm getting sick of their excuses to blame misinfo and disinfo, (an excuse to put more laws in place so the next attempt wont fail) when their campaign rested on emotional manipulation and rather than merit.
(Effectively saying the 'Yes' would've won otherwise)

'This is a once in a generation opportunity'.
'This is the right thing to do.'
'Australia will be a pariah on the world stage'

All that shite equates to an emotional manipulation campaign, not a campaign based on selling it's policy on it's own merits.

Yet they effing whinge about what the other side was doing.
They sure as feck weren't selling a policy on it's own merits.

I'm getting fed up with all their bullcrap.
Now they want to shame and guilt the majority for how they voted.

We're told that more than 60% of Australians voted
NO to altering the Constitution in order to create
a Voice to Parliament to represent Indigenous
communities.

Although the outcome was a big NO. We're also told that -
in many remote Australian communities in some of the
poorest parts of the country they voted overwhelmingly in
favour of the Voice. Some with support closer to 90%.

There will now be a great deal of finger-pointing and
soul searching as to what went wrong - or in some cases -
what went right.

However talking to people it becomes obvious that some
Australians did not understand what the Voice was. Others
were convinced that a Voice to Parliament was not the
right model to address systemic disadvantage.

Others still felt that the Voice was a "land grab,"
and that it had the power to make laws Misinformation
did spread quickly on social media and the YES campaign
and the government were unable to effectively counter
the spread.

Many YES campaigners and Indigenous folk are now
calling the results "tragic."
Others have gone into mourning. Whilst still others are
speaking out publicly for the first time.

The thing is
that for whatever the reasons may be that contributed
to the failure of the Voice Referendum -and despite the
fact that the YES campaign mobilised tens of thousands
of volunteers, it failed to capture the support of a
majority of Australians in a majority of states.

And for that - in my personal view - Australia does deserve
a great big raspberry! (joke).

Seriously though, what happens next we shall have to wait and
see. The government has so much on its plate at the moment,
including the conflict in the Middle East, the cost of living,
and the list goes on.

I'm hoping that something positive can come out of all this
once we stop playing the blame game. And, I guess having
the right leadership to come together and support each other
could make all the difference for success next time.

Post truth mhaze,

I have already shown how Dutton was twice approached to agree on the Carma Langton report as the basis for the Voice but refused.

He is the one who walked away from providing detail.

So why do you keep claiming otherwise?

Peter Dutton's got to go!

AC

Minorities always make the most noise in the media and social media. They made the most noise in the lead up to the referendum - and look how well that went for them. The silent majority is still coming out on top.

Dutton was always going to oppose any referendum Albanese
proposed. There is nothing that the Prime Minister could
have proposed that would have drawn Coalition support. There
was always a NO campaign ready and waiting for anything
relating to First Nations people funded by mining magnates,
and wealthy right-wingers and fueled by malignant people
online.

So the myths and accusations that had Albanese been a better
campaigner, had proposed a different question, or had
delayed the referendum, or had been less (or more) ambitious,
or somehow done something different the result would have been
different.

The YES campaign is now targeted as being
ineffectual. That if a smarter targeted campaign
had been run - it could
have defeated all the forms of intolerance,
and misinformation
that fueled the NO campaign.

Something will always be confected.

What happens next will be interesting.

"The Coronal inquest into the mosque terror attack has started in Christchurch - with a powerful and harrowing video tribute to the 51 men, women and children murdered as they gathered to pray in March 2019."

I'm sure there will be great interest from some into the actions of the far right nutter Brenton Tarrant, he has his extremist supporters in this world. Some no doubt want the fanatical Zionist to do a "Tarrant" on the innocent people of Gaza.

Dear Paul,

I don't think anyone in their right mind would want
harm to be caused to either the people of Israel
or the Palestinian people in Gaza and elsewhere.
The whole world is watching this conflict at its
current worst. None of us want it to worsen even
further.

I have friends in Israel and Jewish friends here
in Australia. I also have Muslim friends here in
Melbourne. Neither of these groups that I've
spoken to recently want this conflict to continue.
They would like to see peace come to the region
and have people living as human beings side by side.

Unfortunately, this is not about to happen anytime
soon under either the current Israeli leadership,
or while Hamas controls everything in Gaza.

The only influencer could be the US. The balls in their
court.

Hi Foxy,

We can't sugar coat this!

"I don't think anyone in their right mind would want harm to be caused to either the people of Israel or the Palestinian people" The operative words are "in their right mind", as clearly demonstrated by several pro Zionists, they are delighted at the thought of thousands of dead Palestinians in Gaza. To them they are nothing more than subhuman, and hated Muslims.

It is unfolding before our very eyes, the denial of humanitarian aid to 2.3 million innocent people in Gaza, thousands dead, innocent women and children, will be the end result. This is developing into another "Warsaw Ghetto" situation, except this time the Jews are the Nazi's.

Hi Foxy,

"There will now be a great deal of finger-pointing and
soul searching as to what went wrong - or in some cases -
what went right."

Well that'd be a complete waste of time, considering a significant enough number of indigenous voted 'NO', surely enough to make a valid argument that the indigenous themselves were not even united in their choice.
That says: 'The government failed to sell it's idea on it's own merits'.
- Any other argument one tries to make is inconsequential.

Dear Paul,

Miriam Margolyes atted - "The abused have become the
abusers."

And:

" The tragedy of the Palestinians is just as much the
tragedy of the Jews."

She explains:

"When the Zionists reclaimed Israel, they didn't take into
account the Palestinians who were already living there.
What were they supposed to do? Were they supposed to
disappear? That's where as a people, we Jews fell down, and
where Hitler won. He changed us from being a compassionate
nation into a destructive, uncaring, and subhumane one."

"Their tragedy is also our tragedy!""

Sad - but it can be fixed - with the right leadership.

Armchair Critic,

Experts and polls disagree with you.

On Q and A last night and according to Reuters, and
polling in general, many remote Australian communities in
some of the poorest parts of the country voted overwhelmingly
in favour of the Voice some with support closer to 90%.

Patricia Karvelas made that clear as did the Director of
"GetUp."

AC,

http://theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/15/indigenous-communities-overwhelmingly-voted-yes-to-australias-voice-to-parliament#

SR being SR again....trying to skip the point by raising some fatuous side-show.... "He [Dutton]is the one who walked away from providing detail...".

It wasn't up to him to provide the detail ya dill. It was Albanese's proposal, so up to him to provide the detail.

"“We’re learning from history…What I’m not going to do…is to go down the cul de sac of getting into every detail, because that is not a recipe for success,” he [Albanese] told the ABC’s David Speers on Sunday."

"Considering the significance of this change, Mr Albanese’s audacity in saying Australians would be provided with the detail of how the Voice would operate only after we have voted is jaw-dropping."

Besides Langton's report was 300 pages long and didn't provide the detail but as series of options as to how it might work. And when people started picking at the report, the Yeskerteers raced to say the report wasn't the finally word on the details.

Its hardly surprising that went over your head.

"This is developing into another "Warsaw Ghetto" situation, except this time the Jews are the Nazi's."

One minor difference. The Warsaw Jews hadn't broken out in wanton slaughter of the Nazis, killing the defenceless, decapitating babies, raping women alive or dead, kidnapping old women for the prize-money, tying mother and child together with wire and then burning them alive. You know, that type of everyday activity!!

http://legalinsurrection.com/2023/10/multiple-hamas-terrorists-became-like-isis-admit-to-beheadings-stomping-heads-sex-with-dead-women/

"in many remote Australian communities in some of the
poorest parts of the country they voted overwhelmingly in
favour of the Voice. Some with support closer to 90%."

If you go to the AEC Tally Room for the Northern Territory you'll NOT find even one booth that voted at 90%. You will find one or two of the the mobile teams with those sort of percentages but their vote count was under 1000. Overall the NT excluding all the northern cities (Darwin, Palmerston) voted overwhelming No.

Sorry Foxy but you've been led down the garden path again. But you don't care, do you? You were told what you wanted to hear and whether its true or not is beside the point.

Even if what she said was true;
- that 90 of indigenous people voted 'Yes'.
That's not 100% of indigenous people, they were not united.
If this really was without any question the best thing that happened to indigenous people since white men came, then it would've been 100%, not 90%, and not just in remote areas.

It shows the government couldn't even convince all of the indigenous people themselves that this was the best way forward.
And it makes no difference what the 'losers' and 'blamers' have to say about it.

They're still trying to control the narrative and maintain the high moral ground, just as they tried to do during their campaign with their emotional manipulation policy, and the absence of selling their idea on it's own merits.

Australians voted 'NO' to having an unelected advisory body included in the constitution, and a concealed plan the government did not wish to share unless it won.

The 'Yes' people are the minority, so they can just shut the hell up and eat some humble pie. Their views were not the position chosen by the majority, and they are just making things worse for themselves kicking and screaming about it, because everyone's getting sick of it, and they won't want to do anything at all to help the indigenous the more the 'Yes' people carry on.

AUSTRALIA SAID NO.
- Now they should accept it, and move on with their lives.

the failure of the Voice Referendum
Foxy,
The Voice referendum wasn't a failure at all, the activists' failings over the years & standard Labor lack of performance for those not in the Public Service has brought about the result !

mhaze,

Your gruesome accounts of atrocities committed by Hamas are truly shocking, you have a full book of them, true, or simply propaganda is uncertain. Are you using those atrocities committed by Hamas to justify later atrocities being committed by the Zionists. For you it's a simple equation, is it not, Hamas killed innocent Israeli women and children, therefore the Zionist who you support, should kill innocent Palestinian women and children, in greater numbers, as you might consider Palestinians as sub-human, inferior Muslim animals. With your racism, I'm sure you would be well satisfied by that outcome.

Paul

"Are you using those atrocities committed by Hamas to justify later atrocities being committed by the Zionists."

By 'Zionist' I assume you mean Israeli? The atrocities committed by the so-called Palestinians aren't justification for equal atrocities by Israel. BUT, they do justify Israel doing all possible to ensure that the Palestinians never do it again. You won't understand that.

" as you might consider Palestinians as sub-human, inferior Muslim animals."

Well I never said such a thing but when you can't deal with my actual views, make up different opinions and ridicule them....standard Paul there. You might note that the so-called Palestinians justify their hatred for the Jew from the Koran which refers to the Jew as apes and pigs. But we'll ignore that, eh Paul, and pretend that the people you hate are the real racists.

"With your racism, I'm sure you would be well satisfied by that outcome."

Well having conjured up different views for me Paul then makes a leap of logic based on those manufactured views. What a dill.

Village idiot,

If you don't believe the atrocities, just watch the video provided by Hamas. Also, only morons believe what Hamas puts out.

Reprisals are as bad as aggressive atrocities however, reprisal would not happen if there were no warranted aggressive acts !

Patricia Karvelas
Foxy,
Now there is an example of bias if there ever was one !

mhaze,

No, I never said your claims were unbelievable, what I said was they may have been fabricated by Israel for propaganda purposes, such misinformation is not unknown in war. Anyone who would kill innocent women and children is a fanatic, and that is not what the average Israeli is, its the fanatical Zionist that I was referring to. I said you "MIGHT" consider Palestinians subhuman, if you say you don't, then you don't. Given your previous posting I find you racists against others, including Muslims. I disagree with ALL FUNDAMENTAL RELIGIONS, be it Christian, Islam or Jewish. Fundamentalism is extremely dangerous!

With over 5,000 innocent Palestinians now dead because of Israeli militarism, do you believe that can be justified, despite so many innocent deaths?

"By 'Zionist' I assume you mean Israeli? The atrocities committed by the so-called Palestinians aren't justification for equal atrocities by Israel. BUT, they do justify Israel doing all possible to ensure that the Palestinians never do it again. You won't understand that."

Well that's a perfect example of backwards logic mhaze.
I'm willing to bet money that you have not destroyed Hamas at all.
Israel has killed 6000 people, 40% were kids.

You can't kill an entire people
Your stance will have just hardened their resolve against Israel

Your stance just succeeded in creating more Hamas
THAN THERE EVER WAS BEFORE.

If you support the killing of women and kids go ahead
You are just supporting a position that will nurture further hate, resentment and a reason for them to avenge.
Even if the numbers are completely unbalanced
All they are doing is creating more Palestinians that will want Israelis dead.
How do you think we got here?

Think about the 7 year old kid whos mother was killed under rubble
And you are the only person left in your family that lived.
Guaranteed he will become a member of Hamas.
- Now tell me how many kids just like that Israel has just created.

TENS OF THOUSANDS, ALL HELL BENT ON AVENGING THEIR OWN LOVED ONES.

I don't even support Israels right to defend itself anymore.
(If I ever did, but now I definitely don't)
The right to defend onself doesn't include leveling apartment buildings full of women and kids, and elderly.

As for the censorship bill...
And this current democracy...

Can't I have a simple monogamous relationship?
I'd rather have just one lot of people raping me
THAT TWO GROUPS TAKING TURNS.

Why would anyone in their right mind vote in support of a group that would screw them over?
- So they vote for the lesser evil, choose the other lot
And then they have their turn screwing them over.

What a great system.
- None of the above -
Democracy isn't working.

No more immigrants during a housing crisis
No more involvement of big business in social and political issues
CORPORATIONS ARE NOT CITIZENS
No more censorship while the mainstream media lies and omits the full story.

Hi AC,

"If you support the killing of women and kids go ahead
You are just supporting a position that will nurture further hate, resentment and a reason for them to avenge.
Even if the numbers are completely unbalanced
All they are doing is creating more Palestinians that will want Israelis dead."

HEAR, HEAR!

Perfect example, Americans started killing and destroying innocent villages in Vietnam, they murdered tens of thousands in a belief they were preventing Vietcong recruitment, and villages supporting the Vietcong. What happened was thousands of non-combatant young Vietnamese girls and boys rushed to join the Vietcong. If you want to radicalise someone, its very easy, just wipe out their family.

Dear Armchair Critic,

It is difficult sifting ones way through the framing media companies put over this conflict. I am finding some of the Israeli papers have a more realistic take.

For instance there are lots of Western media quoting 1300 civilians gunned down by Hamas on October 7.

While Haaretz gives a more nuanced view.

"Over 1,300 Israelis, civilians and soldiers were killed in their homes, communities and in confronting Hamas terrorists. Here are the officially confirmed names of Israel's dead in the atrocities of October 7 and the subsequent Israel-Hamas war"

Since posting on October 19 the figures have been slow to update but at the time of the more than 700 persons identified over 300 were officers and enlisted men of the IDF.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-19/ty-article-magazine/israels-dead-the-names-of-those-killed-in-hamas-massacres-and-the-israel-hamas-war/0000018b-325c-d450-a3af-7b5cf0210000

The toll is sickening on both sides and is unfortunately likely to get much worse.

Paul wrote: "No, I never said your claims were unbelievable,"

Well I never said you said that. So when you say that I said that you said that my claims were unbelievable you were wrong, because I never said that you said that I said any such thing. Is that clear?

" I said was they may have been fabricated by Israel for propaganda purposes, such misinformation is not unknown in war..."

That doesn't mean every claim is fabricated. International forensic teams is pretty powerful evidence. But I get it. For the Paul's of this world, everything that makes the people he supports look bad is fabricated and everything that makes the people he hates look bad is immediately, unthinkingly, true. Straight out of the AC playbook.

Speaking of the increasingly deranged AC....

"I'm willing to bet money that you have not destroyed Hamas at all."

Huh? How do you think I've been trying to destroy Hamas. I'm an observer not a participant. Dill.

"Israel has killed 6000 people, 40% were kids."
Oh so absolute proof that Hamas lied about the deaths at the hospital, but AC just goes on believing the death toll claims by Hamas. Dill.

I can't help but notice that none of the anti-Semites in the group are prepared to say exactly what those awful Joos are supposed to do about
the barbarity of Hamas. Just sit back and take it? I'm reminded of a cartoon recently with Biden holding a paper marked "Hamas demands" and the one demand being "Kill all the Jews" and Biden asking Netanyahu if he can met them half-way. Pretty much summarised the last 70 years in the Levant.

Most of us are aware of the history of the region.
We've all read the quotes of previous leaders and
what their aims were for the region. We've read
the impressions of people visiting the area and
the breaking of international laws and norms that have
been done for decades. And we now finally see what has
happened there as a result - where innocent people on
both sides are not only suffering but dieing.

It's a horrid situation. Trying to walk a middle-ground
is slippery and difficult. But it needs to be done.
As the war in the Middle East escalates and the death
toll rises Australian communities are facing tensions.

There's been abuse hurled in the streets, Some people
have faced a torrent of abuse - all this leaving Australian
Arabic and Jewish communities nervous and distressed.
Both the Islamic and Jewish communities have spoken of
terrifying surges in reports as ASIO warns of "spontaneous
violence" in Australia.

We don't need to add to it on this forum.

"Huh? How do you think I've been trying to destroy Hamas. I'm an observer not a participant. Dill."

You must be backed into a corner if you're picking on nuances...
It's ok, I understand the moral high ground has been slipping away with every apartment building Israel levels and the resulting dead women, kids and elderly plastered all over the tv for all to see.

"I can't help but notice that none of the anti-Semites in the group are prepared to say exactly what those awful Joos are supposed to do about the barbarity of Hamas. Just sit back and take it?"

Ah yeah... straight out of the 'You can never criticise Israel' playbook
The criticism has absolutely nothing at all to do with the dead women and kids were seeing on TV, no

Hmm, how about this:
Not only should they have taken it mhaze (since they caused it), but they should've immediately entered into serious negotiations for the 2 state solution, and given all the land taken back an apologised to every living man, woman and child for a conflict that has gone on for generations.

Now, they should probably hand themselves in for war crimes,
Crimes against humanity and such.

Looks like they're trying to pull that same 'You can never criticise Israel' bs with the head of the UN as well.

Israel demands UN chief resign after he says Hamas attacks ‘did not occur in vacuum’
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-livid-after-un-chief-says-hamas-attacks-did-not-occur-in-vacuum/

>>Israeli envoy slams remarks from Guterres at Security Council as justification for terror, as FM cancels meeting with him; Gantz calls him a ‘terror apologist’<<

Wouldn't it be great if one had F-35s with JDAM missiles to level Palestinian buildings and the US government with it's veto power to prevent any criticism, for all time.

Well, don't count on US support forever, they're slowly going down the toilet, and trying hard to drag their allies down with them, I might add.

Many peaceful Arabs live and work in Israel, but Hamas is neither peaceful, nor pacifist. If they accepted the State of Israel's existence they could intermingle into Israel. But, no they want Israelis dead. Israel is a very successful State, among struggling Islamic States not dependent on Oil.

Maximum pressure needs to be applied on both Israel and
Hamas to end the bombardment and the blockage of Gaza,
free the hostages, and Israel must not return to its
indefinite occupation of the West Bank and stop its siege
of Gaza or return to the underlying conditions against
which Palestinians have long struggled.

Otherwise nothing will change.

Biden's administration by throwing its full weight behind an
Israeli government dominated by extremist ministers bent on
annexing the West Bank and expelling and killing as many
Palestinians as it can - only makes Hamas more powerful.
And sending money and military aid - worsens the situation.
Taking sides does not help.

Maximum pressure needs to be applied.
And the US is in a position to be able to
do that. However, it needs strong leadership.

Wacky Wong is at again, completely naive about war, which is being waged in the Middle East after Hamas started it by slaughtering Israeli citizens, including children and babies.

Now this stupid Labor Senator wants Israel to go easy, even help, Palestinian civilians.

While what is happening to civilians in Gaza, thanks to Hamas's starting of the war, is regretable, Israel is not responsible for its enemy's civilians in anyway whatsoever. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not a fit person to be in the Australian Parliament, let alone Foreign Minister.

ttbn,

What a load of minimising apologetic rubbish from you as usual...." even help, Palestinian civilians" perish the thought of helping women and children!..."regretable" (sic)...not responsible for its enemy's civilians (that would appear so as they happily murder thousands)...."Anyone who thinks otherwise is not a fit person to be in the Australian Parliament, let alone Foreign Minister." you are full of it!

What a tragic situation:

Jews have been blamed and scapegoated for any number of
real or imagined crimes throughout their long history,
including the killing of Jesus Christ.

Now we see a similar argument being used of "Blame the
Arabs." It's a similar catchcall for Israel and its
staunchest supporters.

Wars, acts of terrorism, and craven political decisions
made by governments, or individuals are being attributed to
both sides. And sadly only one side is receiving greater
financial and military support with little pressure
bring applied.

"The Arabs don't want peace." "The Arabs want to drive the
Jews into the sea." "The Arabs use children as human shields."
"The Arabs won't uphold their side of the deal."

And so it goes.

The blame game is played well.

This impulse of collective blame was best summed up by Golda
Meir. But - I'm going to paraphrase what she supposedly said:

"There will only be peace when BOTH sides will love their
children more than they hate each other."

Foxy, does not understand the conflict of ideology that permeates the middle East. She needs to spend time in Iran and see how they treat women with a voice like hers. Then go to Isael and see how they treat women. Just one example, how about a travel experience Foxy.

Women don't have to travel to the Middle East.
They can simply work in Canberra, or at any
other state or federal level in any -
institution or organization here in Australia,
and receive a variety of different treatments
to men.

If I was to ask for equal treatment on this forum -
I would have as much success as a black man asking
to join the Ku Klux Klan.

As for how women are treated in Israel?

I suggest you Josephus do a bit more research.
The book by Miriam Margolyes "This Much Is True,"
would be a good start. Followed by Ilan Pappe's
"The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine." or
Antony Lowenstein's "My Israel Question."

I have several women relatives living in Israel and know firsthand how they are treated. I see the women protesting in Iran and know how they are treated. Yet you want to read some reports from anti-Israel authors.

Josephus - You obviously are not familiar with
the authors who happen to be Jews and are not
anti-Israel. One is a well renowned Israeli
historian who currently teaches in the UK.
Another an author, and journalist,
who has lived in Israel and travelled extensivly
through out the Middle East. And the other is a
Jewish actress who has also travelled to Israel and
the Middle East and writes about what she has
experienced and seen with her own eyes.

It just may expand your outlook to broaden your mind
just a little if you were able to do some reading from
different points of view.
It would also give you more credibility on this forum.

There is an ultra-conservative sect in Israel which is very restrictive on women. However, most women in Israel share the same rights and freedoms as in any other democratic society.

These ultra-conservatives are the exception that proves the rule.

Foxy,
You really need to read more than just read Lefty propaganda. Read up on what real people have experienced not what some intellectual ignoramus are trying to shove down our throats !

Indyvidual,

Part of my education has been to always question
the given narrative. That's how you learn and grow.
I politely suggest you should try it instead of giving
advice to others on something you don't do .
You're never too old. So age is no excuse for you.

Shadow Minister,

Most women in Israel do not share the same rights as
women in other democratic countries.

Palestinian women still face violence, threats,
intimidation, restriction on movement and discrimination
from Israeli forces on a daily basis and Israel continues
to impose policies which strictly violate international
humanitarian and human rights law.

I have a sister-in-law and a Neice who are Orthodox Jews. My two brothers visit and share in their family events. my brother's two grandsons both serve in the military in Israel, so I have first-hand knowledge of how women are treated in Israel, women also serve in the Military.

Josephus,

With all due respect - you again don't present
a full picture. Your knowledge again is narrow
and limited. But -why don't you start
your own discussion on the subject. And include
Palestinian women into the equation -
and how they are treated in Israel.

You should also mention that - there are wage disparities
between men and women - and this is a big issue in parts of the
state. that - sexual harrassment remains a wide problem. That
Women are expected to manage household affairs and care
for the children. That in religious (Dat) and ultra-Orthodox
(Hared) families, it is considered a holy act for a woman
to bear many children - and there's many other issues
that need examination.

In any case - start your own discussion - and you'll find
your kindred spirits happy to share their knowledge with
you as well.

Meanwhile lets get back to the topic of this discussion
which is Peter Dutton.

Before I leave this discussion I'd just like
to say that one of the reasons I am so anti
Peter Dutton being the Prime Minister of Australia
is his recent behaviour - especially how he chose to
squander the opportunity to support a centuries long
quest for justice for the original inhabitants of this
country. He chose not to support this opportunity purely
for political advantage.

He gave no consideration whatsoever to what was best for
Australian Indigenous people but saw a chance to win against
Anthony Albanese and Labor, and took it.

The next election should be an opportunity for Australians
to show what they really think of a leader who thinks
only of himself. The main
objective should be to eliminate him and other
Coalition members and their seats. Choose Teals, Labor, the
Greens, Independents, or minor parties, other than the
Coalition.

If enough Australians do get together and do some serious
campaigning - the nation will be better off. This country
does not need politicians who think only of their own gains
and not what is good for the nation.

Dutton is n - o Inspector George Gently!

always question the given narrative
Foxy,
So why aren't you filtering Leftist propaganda from reality ?

Foxy,

The reason I like Dutton is that he helped save Aus from a disastrous cluster f--.

But Albozo should get most of the credit.

Wow!

The reason I like Mr Potato Head is that he helped save Australia! The unsung hero of the nation, the mighty Mr Potato Head! Disguised as a crazy lunatic working for a large metropolitan police force, our intrepid hero managed to roll his squad car, X2 and even,HELP ME! over and out" came over the radio, as Mr Potao Head aka Constable Clod, took off heading into the stratosphere. This all happened when in a selfless act of heroism, while tearing down the road at a 160 clicks, to a looming emergency back at the station, the lads were hungrey, Constable Clod was on a dangerous mission at that time, picking up the lads Macca's order on the late shift, including a 'Happy Meal' for himself! Then Constable Clod tried to sue the taxpayer, for his damaged fries and burger! The people cried; "Its a bird, its a plane, NO! its bloody Mr Potato Head taking off in his squad car!"

Indyvidual,

That's because I don't like the current reality,
so like yourself - We all tend to filter it.

Shadow Minister,

Peter Dutton deliberately chose to oppose the Voice
to Parliament proposal after more than a decade of
bipartisan support. There was little our Prime Minister
could do to countervail this.

Lies in political advertising and communication were a
primary feature of Dutton's NO campaign. The credit for
its success belongs to Dutton.

Hi Foxy,

There are advantages in being Dud Dutton and Scary Ley, its Halloween and they don't need makeup, or a costume, they'll go as they are, and spook everyone!

Hi Paul,

I've bought M & M's and Mars bars for Halloween in case
kids come around. If not. I'll go banging on doors on
our apartment floor where I know there are kids.
Perhaps my grand kids might visit. We'll see. It will be
a relief from the misery being shown on the news.

so like yourself - We all tend to filter it.
Foxy,
I don't filter, the likes of you just don't like evidence contrary to your indoctrination !

Indyvidual,

I was taught to think for myself, how to evaluate
the evidence, and how to disagree with people like
you.

Go talk to someone else.

Foxy,

Dutton supported the voice to parliament up to the point when Albozo made it clear that the voice was not just to parliament but to every level of government in every state and refused to commit to putting protections in place to prevent the voice from becoming a veto.

Albozo single-handedly torpedoed the voice. There was not one thing that Dutton said that was not 100% true.

Shadow Minister,

It was Peter Dutton who was the key figure in the
NO campaign to the Indigenous Voice to Parliament
referendum. He made it quite clear that he did not
support a constitutionally enshrined consultative
body and did everything he could to see it defeated.

He also pledged to hold a 2nd referendum on that matter
if his government won the next election.

His view was not shared by all of his state and territory
party colleagues.

In any case - this has been argued out and I have no
further wish to continue repeating those arguments.

There's a more concerning matter at hand - that of the
Middle East conflict.

Peter Dutton will be dealt with at the next election or
possibly even sooner.

It was not Peter Dutton that influenced my decision, as i never heard him except for the 24 Questions. It was Aboriginals themselves that wanted ONE AUSTRALIA, not a nation divided by disadvantaged forever, with special treatment.

Indigenous communities overwhelmingly voted YES
to Australia's Voice to Parliament.

You were influenced by the NO campaigners many of whom
Peter Dutton influenced.

I was not influenced by anyone.
I said right at the start that if they refuse to give full details 'fine print' it would be an automatic NO, and that I'd be insulted just for asking, or the attempt to win not on merit but by emotional manipulation.

I didn't even watch any of the crap that was televised.
Your argument here rests on very thin ice Foxy.

Aussies weren't keen.
They smelled Albo's bs and didn't go for it.
Everything else is just crap mostly by ppl who still can't accept the decision, and still want to attribute blame, or create some narrative in their minds to make sense of just how far off the mark they were.

They didn't vote No to buy Duttons love or to win success for him.
But they probably got plenty of votes by people who wanted to give Albo a kick up the backside, and see him, and all his stupid woke loving ideas fail.

Go back to your Mardi Gras float Albo, and take your welcome to country with you ya grovelling little arse-licker.

Foxy,

You have clearly shown that Dutton supported a voice to parliament just not the version that Albozo had proposed.

Secondly, polling just before the referendum did not show an overwhelming support amongst Aboriginals. As ballots are not marked by race your claim is pure conjecture.