In 2000 Zimbabwe was one of the economic stars in Africa, but when Mugabe looked likely to lose the elections he pandered to his supporters by unleashing bands of thugs to "confiscate" and steal the land of white farmers supposedly to give to the masses. While he kept power, the Zimbabwean economy collapsed, and the country went from a massive exporter of food to its citizens starving. The banks who'd loaned large amounts of money to the farmers became technically bankrupt and the value of the Zim$ fell through the floor.

In Aus, we have Labor and the greens who have spectacularly failed to reduce power prices effectively trying to confiscate gas at prices well below market values to pay for their failed promises. Electricity prices are still going to rise by about 35% and will continue to rise as renewables are subsidized by price increases. (In Germany, real average power prices have risen by almost 50 per cent across the past decade as renewables have risen from under 20 per cent to more than 40 per cent of total domestic power generation.)
The $10bn question is how much the taxpayer will have to subsidize this government largesse as companies can and will sue the government for compensation.

Hey shadowminister,
Both sides are guilty of holding a position that have increased power prices.
They did this when supporting the defense of Ukraine and by extension a continuation of the war and sanctions, which lead to reduced global supply, that in turn caused prices to rise.

If our leaders truly wanted to keep Australian energy prices low, and do what was in their citizens interests, they would've supported a negotiated settlement between the two parties, not a continuation of the war and backing of the sanctions.

Not only has the government "spectacularly failed to reduce power prices", it has increased them with its climate-bothering lunacy; and now, like all incompetent dropkicks, it thinks it can solve the problem it caused in the first place - using our money!

"Thousands of years of experience – from the ancient Babylonians and Roman Emperor Diocletian, through to modern times – have demonstrated how price controls prevent the allocation of scarce goods to their most valuable uses, lower short-term production, and cause investment to seize up". (economist, Alan Moran)

Price controls were abandoned in the 1980s by the Hawke-Keating government, which accepted the truth that prices regulated by supply and demand is the best way to run an economy.

Government intervention in the economy results in a worse outcome for everyone except the politically privileged. The less the government is involved in our lives, the better off we are.

Whenever the state has started to dictate social, economic, and commercial behaviour – serious problems have followed. These usually include loss of freedom, loss of living standards, higher costs, and dislocation of society.

The ALP government’s price capping escapade, along with subsidies to unreliable wind and solar (yes, started by John Howard), is setting Australia up for a Soviet style economy.

What a load of Liberal Party BOLLOCKS!

The action to limit prices as they apply to Australian owned and consumed gas and coal resources producing power, is an attempt by the Federal Labor Government, endorsed by two Liberal Premiers, Perrottet and Rockliff at National Cabinet, to benefit Australians, by limiting the cost impact of OUR resources on power bills, not multinationals like 'Shell' who seek to exploit OUR resources for their benefit, and the financial benefit of their mega rich, cash bloated, foreign shareholders. Dud Dutton and his motley crew of reprobates, might be winning great kudos in the boardrooms of the multinationals, as they try to boost their rip offs super profits, but their 'NO' vote wins them no endorsement from battling Australians. Another nail in the coffin of the useless political mob masquerading as the Federal opposition.

Economic vandalism, a bunch of numbskulls creating a trillion dollars of debt, lining the pockets of the super rich, with nothing to show for it, only to make Australia another one of the worlds Indebted nations. SM and ttbn how about you give three cheers for ScumO' and Friedbrain, who created an economic disaster for Australia!

Thank the GREENS for obtain a economic support package from Labor to help battling Australians.

We all know that energy is of national importance
and that a national policy, national rules, and
regulations are necessary. The states and the industry
are fully aware of this and they have done what they
could but without a national energy plan it was hard to
make national investments.

For about a decade the Coalition failed to develop a
national energy plan. As a result Australia was
ill-prepared when the current crisis hit.

We wouldn't have been able to avoid the crisis - but as
a country we'd have been better prepared and would not have
had to resort to the government intervention that we see
today.

If we would have had a national plan a decade ago we
would now be in a much better economic sense. The
new Labor Government together with the states have
agreed on a national plan within weeks after the
election. This is a clear indication that the states
were more than ready.

Now with a national plan in place, we shall see an
increase in smart energy development around the country.
Unfortunately the results will be some years away
while the crisis is now. The energy crisis will get
worse but importantly it will get better over time.

AC,

What bollocks, Aus had nothing to do with Putin's unprovoked and illegal attempt to temporarily enslave Ukraine that pushed up oil prices. Now that oil prices are below those shortly before the war, this is irrelevant to oil or coal prices. The gas shortage is mostly due to Russia trying to punish the EU for supporting Ukraine and Russia blowing up the pipelines. Victoria banning onshore exploration has as much to do with the shortage as Russia.

Russia is busy having the crap knocked out of it while the Ukrainians are now receiving even more aid to rebuild their energy sector and patriot missile systems to stop Russian war crimes against civilian infrastructure.

The oil price cap is now working well and greatly reduced the revenue Russia is receiving for its oil.

One state is not affected by this gas price nonsense Western Australia, the countries biggest gas producer (about 60% of total production. Why?

"It's a different story in Western Australia, where gas is much cheaper, partly because the state has a gas reservation policy, which dictates that supply equivalent to around 15 per cent of the gas produced for export must be provided for local consumers., at a controlled price."

All thanks to the Mark McGowan Labor Government. The Queensland State Labor Government has imposed a "Super tax" on excessive coal profits.

You would think shadowminister was a big shareholder in energy stocks, by his mealy mouthed apologist attitude to 'Big Energy', the truth be known, he probably owns nothing more than a candle and a box of matches.

We've been fed the first new policy from the Coalition since the election.

DON'T DO ANYTHING THAT WOULD BENEFIT AUSTRALIANS IF IT MEANS LOWERING THE PROFITS OF BIG MULTINATIONAL CORPORATIONS.

Now that is a vote winner!

Coalition backed broken-down coal burners fuel the
energy crisis. Coal is a dud. Gas is a pretend
solution spruiked by vested interests. Renewable
energy resources are the cheapest form of new power
generation. So where are they?

A word of warning. Be careful of how the government makes things
difficult for the majors like Shell, BP etc.
They are planning on getting out anyway over some years so just being
hard to get on with may make them close up in this part of the world
altogether and just concentrate on the chemical industry.
Just remember we are right out on our own and the oil industry could
disappear here while they run down slowly in the rest of the world.

Whats that you say ? The oil industry close down ? IMPOSSIBLE !
Not something they have been shouting out loud but it is in the planning.
Why do you think the car companies are all doing something they would
rather not do ?

Received by email today, a red flag with LABOR emblazoned on it and this message:

"This is not your grandfather's Labor Party. This is a radicalised power-hungry socialist party that will stoop to any low and any level, to win control over the people"

Scare tactics once again. Someone is using the old
tactics of yester-year - "Reds under
the beds!" technique thinking it will work for them
again. Stuck in a time-warp. It worked once. If that's
the best they can come up with - their fate is sealed.
On the dung heap of history where they belong.

These guys will stoop to any low to discredit Labor. But
as for influencing the people? In their dim-witted
dreams!

Look ttbn is getting fan mail from far right extremist. Since he frequents their web site and gives them his e-mail address so they can send him all the "good oil", what should he expect, a photo of the Lovely Pauline with a Hitler style toothbrush moustache painted on. ttbn you don't fool anyone, well not Foxy and me, you lap that sort of nonsense up.

The Reds are no longer under the bed: they are in Canberra - in government. And, their useful idiots are so very smug about it. Some people are poor losers; the Alboites are poor winners, as well.

Thankfully, I am just an observer these days. I have no passion for politics anymore: it's entertaining to read, watch and listen to simpletons making the same mistakes that they have always made - still believing that their particular ideology is the best.

I would like to know the average age of OLO posters. I'd wager that they are all outside the range of the under-50's who are calling the shots these days, and who don't give a shite about what 'oldies' think.

ttbn,

I beg to differ with your take on things.

Young people are more involved in politics than
you may realize. I noticed on our recent elections
how many had volunteered to hand out leaflets
outside polling booths. How many did door-knocks.
and how many really got involved. Young people
were everywhere working hard - helping out the young
politicians of their choice who were running for
office.

In my safe Liberal seat - the young politician running
for office - got re-elected - thanks to the young
volunteers who had his back. As I'm sure there were others
of all political persuasions who had the support of
young people helping them out.

I'm not sure of the age of the posters on OLO. I would
have thought they'd be in the 50 to 60 age group. Perhaps
a few 70 year olds thrown in.

If you're older than that - you're doing just fine.

ttbn,

OOOOOps. I just re-read my post and realize that
I misunderstood you. You were saying that it's the
young people running the show these days and nobody's
listening to the oldies? Sorry, I misunderstood.

We do have a younger team in government currently.
And that's not a bad thing. At least younger people
are getting more involved because they can see their
future depends on their involvement.

Hi Foxy

"I'm not sure of the age of the posters on OLO. I would
have thought they'd be in the 50 to 60 age group. Perhaps
a few 70 year olds thrown in."

Just to help you out.

Then there's ttbn, Methuselah's older brother, Indy, who migrated on the Mayflower, and Hassy, dear Hassy, we're still waiting for the results of carbon dating to determine the age of our very own dinosaur.

However stupid it was of Morrison to fall for Net Zero at the COP before the last one, it is Albanese who has actually LEGISLATED a 43% (silly number to go with it) reduction in emissions, accelerating the closure of coal projects across the country, expanding the scope of green activist lawfare against critical resource projects, increasing power prices, and causing a gas supply shortage.

We got rid of Morrison but replaced him with an economic illiterate who thinks price control is the way to go.

If Bob Hawke was still alive, he would call Albanese a 'Whitlamite'.

Reaction to Albanese's Soviet-style price capping from major gas producers is to threaten moving out of Australia. The ideological obsession with solar and wind will not cover up this little dictator's stupidity - or should that be ideological vandalism.

Albanese is ignorantly - or deliberately - driving us towards higher energy bills, insecure power supply, loss of manufactures, and lower levels of employment.

And, I think it is Albanese, not the Labor government per se. We all should have observed by now Albanese's style of leadership - presidential or dictatorial; worse even than the Morrison version of 'bullyship".

Foxy

Yes. You did misunderstand, but were gracious enough to say so.

If you are interested, I'm in my 80th year. David f is 97. O sung wu is around my age. I suspect that there are a lot of 70 pluses who would rather not let on, so great is the disrespect and sneering at older people in modern Australia.

I think that people younger than 50 wouldn't know if their arses were on fire. I know that because I remember what I was like and what my generation was like when we were younger. It's nothing new. And it's hard, if not impossible, to convince people who think history began with their birth, as we all did once.

That's why the piss and vinegar has gone out of me, and I'm an observer rather than a doer. Given the average life expectancy, I might not even be here in 3-5 year's time. I've seen the best of Australia, and I won't be bothered about what is clearly coming.

ttbn,

I know that under all your bluster there is a
man with very strong principles and values there.
I'm sorry that you're disappointed in many things
nowadays. Because obviously you've seen a lot
in your lifetime and I imagine have so many stories
to share. Every thought of recording some of them?

Just for you Paul, I'll have my 21St birthday next year, if I live that long.

As we are talking about economic vandalism, here's what we are paying these vandals/country stuffers. Allowances and perks not included.

Albanese $549,250
Marles $433,575
Chalmers $396,093
Wong $332,720
Bandt $315,000
Dutton $401,000

Most Ministers get about $370,000, and the poor old backbenchers have to grab spots on totally useless committees to eke out their miserable $217,000.

The PM gets 10 times the median wage, and the others are doing very well: certainly well enough to be affected by the policies they force on the rest of us.

Should read NOT to be affected, obviously.

I forgot me dear Forum Friend Issy, how can I forget Issy, Issy fought in the Wars of the Roses (1455 - 1487) on the side of the House of Plantagenet, the Royal house of course, he told me so! The collective age of our young lads on the Forum is only a smite older than The Great Pyramid of Giza constructed in 2570 BC.

Hi Hassy, happy birthday for 29th February 2024. Here on earth we measure a year as one orbit of our celestial planet around the Sun, I suppose its only natural you do the same. With you out there orbiting somewhere right of Pluto I can see why you say your're 21. (1 Pluto year = 248 Earth years)

Only an idiot would try and link the political and economic conditions in Zimbabwe over the past 20 years with the same conditions in Australia over the immediate six months of the Albanese Labor government, chalk and cheese. Such is so preposterous its not even worth commenting on. what Labor has inherited is a TRILLION DOLLARS OF LIBERAL PARTY DEBT,with nothing to show for it. What we now have is Australia the Debtor Nation and will remain so for the next 50 or 60 years thanks to the economic bastardy of the failed Morrison government.

The Australian Prime Minister receives about 1/500th of the pay of the pair from 'Afterpay', a company that is a non-producing parasitic blight on the Australian economy. The Irish Joybag from QANTAS was paid over $2 million for running up huge company losses! QANTAS was paid $2 billion in corporate welfare by the Australian taxpayer! The clown from the Reserve Bank is paid a million dollars a year to get it wrong. We could pay one of the welfare lads on this forum a hell of a lot less, and he could get it wrong just like Lowe!

The latest criticism of Ockernese, who is paid more than the US President, plus $2 million for overseas jaunts, is that his price capping will turn Australia into a likeness of one of the "despotic African regimes too dangerous for energy investors". That might sound extreme, but Ockernese is extreme.

So unsure of himself, and so lacking in self-esteem is he, that he is still playing the 'victim' card, desperate for sympathy:

. Raised by a single mother, on a disability pension, in public housing. Sob, sob.

. Of Italian heritage, which he regards as an impediment in Australia. Sob, Sob.

. Now he bawls to the Sydney Morning Herald that he as "been underestimated" all his life.

And, he is determined to take it all out on everyone and the country.

Only a complete Moron couldn't grasp the comparison between the looting of businesses in Zimbabwe with the looting of businesses in Australia. And only a village idiot would think that increasing LABOR's $TRILLION debt by throwing $bns at the states to compensate for lost taxes, and forfeiting $bns in corporate taxes is a good idea.

But that's it in a cookie jar. The fwit greens think that the corporates that generate the jobs and pay the taxes that fund welfare that the greens live off are the problem.

This thread is a clear indicator of the Whitlam legacy of free education where the dumber you can prove to be the easier it is to get funding for doing nothing but biting the hand that feeds them !

Hey ttbn
"Now he bawls to the Sydney Morning Herald that he as 'been underestimated' all his life."

I don't underestimate his ability to stuff things up
- Like most of those who came before him.

Bureaucrat salaries are a perfect example of economic vandalism !

Three days & still no contradiction from our resident bureaudroid ?

Indy,

I don't know who our resident bureaudroid is, no one here has claimed the title, in fact I don't know what a bureaudroid is, its not a word in the 'Oxford Dictionary'. My opinion is, if a bureaudroid is one of those hard working productive public servants then I disagree. If its one of those lazy non productive old aged welfare recipients then I'll agree.

its not a word in the 'Oxford Dictionary'
Paul1405,
Patience, it will be !
Also, looking into the mirror will give you a visual explanation !

Indyvidual

'Droid' means robot, so you are right about robotic bureaucrats, irrespective of what's not in the Oxford dictionary. The description has appeared else where, but as two words: beauro droid.

Given that the Cambridge dictionary has added a new meaning for 'woman' - "an adult who lives and identifies as female though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth", anything is possible, and you might very well have coined a new word.

"The description has appeared else where" You're right ttbn, dozens of times on this forum posted by Indyvidual. As a faquenteller yourself you are often guilty of prograkening the English language. Indyvidual suffers from a bad case of eghastormism. With yours and Indy's comprehension of English being so poor, its better you pair make up some words that no one else can understand, they will add boundless strengths to your line of argument.

Paul1405,
Not having a 100% command of a language is as insignificant a problem can be however, a defective mentality dumbed down by non-comprehended education in a bureaudroid causes many innocent to suffer !

To get back to the topic :

The federal government has come as close to nationalising the energy market as is possible to do without actually seizing coal and gas companies’ assets.

Corporate Australia has discovered that Albanese is not the 'different kind' of ALP leader he promised to be, after the Business Council CEO welcomed his intention to embrace free market economics as a critical component of a healthy country. "He understands the fundamentals", she said. He might understand them, but he certainly doesn't abide by them. His price capping is worse than Kevin Rudd's 'resource super profits tax'

"The federal government has come as close to nationalising the energy market as is possible to do without actually seizing coal and gas companies’ assets."

The so called coal and gas assets "owned" by foreign multinationals are in fact natural resources owned by the Australian people. Anyone would think ttbn owned a swag of shares in these multinationals, he wouldn't own a cracker! ttbn the natural resources in Australian are owned by Australian not the ones you suck up to in the boardrooms of New York, London and elsewhere! Don't you forget it!

natural resources owned by the Australian people.
Paul1405,
Yes, Australians who dig them up & those who sat on them for 50,000 years !

Hi Paul1405,
"The so called coal and gas assets 'owned' by foreign multinationals are in fact natural resources owned by the Australian people. Anyone would think ttbn owned a swag of shares in these multinationals, he wouldn't own a cracker! ttbn the natural resources in Australian are owned by Australian not the ones you suck up to in the boardrooms of New York, London and elsewhere! Don't you forget it!"

Sorry Paul, I've got to disagree with this.
You don't get to sell someone a mining lease, allow them to spend billions in extracting the resources, and then get to claim ownership of what they find and extract.
- You can't have your cake and eat it too.

If Australians own these resources, than don't sell the mining leases in the first place.
Why doesn't Adam Bandt go down to BHP or Woodside and tell them we are nationalising your company?
Go ahead and do it.
You'll destroy the country in doing so because that will be the end of Australians investing in the sharemarket and any further foreign investment.
As it is if I buy a mining lease and pay for the right to dig a hole, I should get whatever I find in that hole.
The Australian government thinks it has a right to more and more of whatever is found in that hole, if the person got lucky enough to find anything in that hole (does govt send a check to people invested in companies who get poor assay results or drill a dry well) and after all the money they spent trying to dig the hole.

If they are OUR resources, then go ahead and nationalise the companies.
(Or don't sell the mining leases and dig the holes yourselves)
Mining tax, windfall tax, we want more of what you found in your purchased hole tax, and all for what?
- To spend more money on more immigrants on centrelink?
- Death panels for the oldies?
- Sex change operations for the gender confused?
- Albos lunchbox sandwiches with the crusts cut off?

Hi AC,

Don't be sorry for disagreeing, but its not that simple, this is a complex issue and a complex solution has to be found. Do you equally believe billions of dollars of government support for the mining industry should be withdrawn?

So Indy, ranting that those "jungle bunnies" you like to refer to, and you so detest, didn't dig up these mineral deposits in 50,000 years. Maybe they had no need to. Seems a good starting point for the old farts Seniors National Service, picks and shovels and off to the mines, so they can help pay their way. Are you up for it?

"Do you equally believe billions of dollars of government support for the mining industry should be withdrawn?"

Yeah probably, so long as you don't unfairly over-subsidise other industries like renewables in it's place.
The reason why there's an energy crisis is the lack of investment in energy, and maybe producers don't want to invest with the way things are.

Stop the price caps too, let western fair market economics do what its supposed to do, and let the people instead get mad and point the finger at support for continuing wars.

"...its not that simple, this is a complex issue and a complex solution has to be found."

You're right everything is a bit too complex these days.

AC

I couldn't have said it better myself.

The governments of Australia have happily received the rivers of gold coming from these companies from the sale of mineral rights to royalties, company taxes and personnel taxes, with the profits providing retirement income via super investment.

But the village idiots AKA the greens want to stop all of this.

This coal and gas cap system is a trademark socialist tax and spend policy from the 1950s. It didn't work then and will come back to bite us later.

Hey shadowminister,
FYI I meant to say 'free market economics'

IF THERE IS a case for 'subsidies';
I can't help thinking the opposite of Paul, on the basis of export potential.
With fossil fuels, maybe if the government subsidises the cost of a rail connection or port upgrades for example;
- Then this to me seems like a 'spend money to make money' kind of a proposition, which helps our trade balance.

Renewables on the other hand, cant really be exported, although I'm sure there's a few exceptions.
It's just energy, if you can turn that energy into a product, like hydrogen for example;
Or make a product for export based on energy creation like wind turbines or solar panels, then these could be products for export.

These price caps are concerning.
Were attempting to bring in new financial tools that further remove ourselves from free market economics,
- and whilst I'm no financial expert I'm told that when these kinds of things are employed that it never really ends well in the long term.

I know these people are themselves only trying to do what they think is best for the environment.
But I think that doing anything at all that increases the cost of energy exasperates our ability to actually move forward towards a better kind of future that these climate conscious people want.

Its true resources account for 68% of Australia's export revenue, but to claim its a 'river of gold" is a nonsense. Compared to other resource rich exporting countries, such as Canada, Australia fairs badly as far as net revenue from those resources is concerned. Both Conservatives and Labor governments, had a "begging bowl" mentality when it came to resource negotiation and the resultant income, they sold the farm at a rock bottom price, all to greedy multinational companies. Who can forget the Howard intervention in gas deals with China and Japan, which seen Australia exporting 3.2 million tonnes of LNG annually to China for 25 years at a rock bottom price. The same deal for Japan.

That's why today Australia is now a Debtor Nation, running government deficits.

Hi Paul1405,
I was under the impression that long term fixed price energy contracts were abandoned in favour of spot prices
- Though I'm not certain.

In any case Merry Christmas everyone.
I hope you all have an enjoyable day.

You too AC.

Enjoy your day.

Take care.

Paul,

"The report shows that in the last decade (between 2011-12 and 2020-21), the mining industry contributed $254 billion in company taxes and royalties ($142 billion and $112 billion respectively)" And this does not include the Paye from employees and GST which nearly doubles this.

This is a huge chunk of revenue that cannot be replaced. This is nearly $1bn a week, for which a river of gold is more than an apt description.

AC and SM,

I'm not saying Australia does not receive revenue from resources ,we do. However, I'm saying we haven't always negotiated the best possible deal for ourselves, that's been well publicised over the years, and data from other countries shows that to be the case. I'm not simply blaming the conservative side of politics, Labor has been guilty as well. The gas deals of Howard in 2002 were outrageous, they were negotiated at a very low price, but Howard justified it as "its a long term contract, 25 years". The big resource companies of the world, see Australia as a "very good investment", politically stable and a reliable supplier. Take iron ore for example, during Covid Australia continued to supply, Brazil our largest competitor went pear-shaped, and still have not fully recovered. Our best comparison is Canada, which consistently does better than us in the export market for commodities. The reason may be that we are more heavily reliant on commodities, whereas Canada has a stronger manufacturing sector, therefore we have more at stake when negotiating. I don't know, maybe our politicians and bureaucrats are an easier push-over than the Canadians.

Interesting, In a 'USNEWS' subjective piece on 'Safest Countries' Australia rates 10th, Canada 7th, Brazil 51st. Norway rated #1, with USA at 21st, slipped with Trumpism. Not surprisingly US is the best trade deal negotiator, given they have a 'big stick' they can use when needed.

Well I have just read all the posts on this thread.
A lot of noise and some good suggestions in my opinion.
However there is a real test of whether the government is REALLY STUPID
next April.
The owners of Liddel will close that power station.
If the government does not offer $1 for the plant or nationalise it
then they will really be stupid.
The company has to clean up the site wen closing the plant.
A friend who worked in that plant for a number of years said if the
maintenance had not been run down because of the coming closure it
could have been kept running for another fifty years.
Similar electrical equipment has been running for over 100 years.
If either 1.5 or 2 Gigawatt, not sure which, is blown up to the cheers
of the greens etc, as for other shutdowns, then the government will
prove that they are REALLY STUPID !

Hi Bazz,

Liddel supplies power to NSW, are you suggesting the NSW government take it over, or nationalise it? According to AGL, the owners, they have plans for a clean energy hub in the region, which includes Liddel.

Paul,

Are you suggesting that you are an expert on tax/ incentives negotiation in the mining/gas/oil industry?

While I understand that greens policy to tax is always more, intelligent people realise that there is a sweet spot between companies paying zero tax and huge tax closing these businesses.

These companies already pay a considerable amount of tax and royalties, their employees pay vast amounts in p.a.y.e. and g.s.t., and their profits provide funds for retirees means that the country is already hugely well off because of them.

What Albozo and his 40 thieves have done is to demonstrate once again that:
1 Labor cannot be trusted to maintain agreements made for 40 year investments,
2 Labor governments are a sovereign risk.

Hi SM,

Are you suggesting that you are an expert on tax/ incentives negotiation in the mining/gas/oil industry? I can say the same for you.

You may argue Australia gets a very good deal, on minerals and resources, but I make the point, compared to others in the market, our deal is considered below par in many respects.

Do you also not trust the NSW Coalition government, as they have placed a cap on the price of coal. WA by far the biggest gas exporter, 60%+ nationally have been savvy in striking a very good deal for their state as far as local gas supplies are concerned. The big resource companies are happy with that.

As far as tax, the Tories are the same as Labor on taxation, no better no worse. The claim that they are better is simple another Tory lie. Remember Little Johnny Howard and his "non core" promise; "They're never be a GST under a government I lead." Tories you can't trust them.

The Greens believe all should pay their fair share of tax, including multinationals, who are paying virtually zero.

Paul,

The claim that multinationals pay no tax is a proven lie. Multinational miners get a tax rebate on corporate capital spent as does every business in Aus which means for multi $bn investments, there is a large rebate on corporate tax for a number of years.

However, they still pay royalties (a tax) a 40% profit tax on oil and gas, G.S.T. employee taxes etc. And when the depreciation is complete they will pay full corporate tax. (like every other business)

I am not an expert, but having run a business I can call out the BS put out by the greens.

Hi SM,

I to ran a small business in the 1980's for almost 3 years, offering Engineering design, draughting and consultancy services, employed a couple of people on contract, etc. I do understand both the difficulties and the benefits of small business. A good accountant is essential. At the time I made the effort to do a 6 month small business course, which was very helpful. It certainly helped me pay off our home and buy an investment property at the time. My youngest son has run his own 'shop front' retail business successfully virtually from the time of leaving school in the 2000's.

No one, certainly not I, are saying; "multinationals pay no tax" what is said they minimise tax with loopholes you could drive a 10 ton truck through. The question is do they pay a fair share of tax, or is their profitably such that they should pay more tax. We've all heard of the 'Google' example when the tech giant earned billions in Australia and paid legally, if not morally virtually no tax, by exploiting the generous tax laws.

Paul,

There is a branch of economics called public economics which I studied as part of my economics degree. Its focus is on maximising the "public good" via legislation tax and state-owned companies and uses a rational basis for deciding what should be state-owned and what should be private, how taxation can yield the greatest public benefit while doing the least damage and what incentives create the most public good while affecting the government coffers the least.

The "fair" tax as advocated by the greens almost always means higher taxes, but there are always negative results such as companies offshoring etc which reduce the public good far more than any additional tax revenue.

Highly educated economists spend a lot of time trying to refine these issues and try to avoid using tax as a punitive measure.

Hi SM,

With all you speak of being so subjective I don't know how you determine what is best for the 'public good" when it comes to taxation and alike. There are some many competing forces within the mix, made up of political philosophy, sectional interests, diverse business interests, social demands. As for "public ownership" versus "private ownership", there is no simple answer. The belief that "business does it better in all cases" or "nationalise the lot" are equally incorrect. In areas of vital public interest such as education, health, etc, etc there is a vital roll for direct government involvement, likewise in certain activities where commercial competition gives the best outcome such as in insurance, banking, retail etc then that is best left to private enterprise, that's not to say government should not have a roll to play in regulation of business for the public good, of course it does.

Paul,

You clearly did not understand a word I said.

Public economic does not say that all industries should be privatised it does indicate clearly which point industries should not be state-owned.
It does say that industries should be regulated etc. In all, it gives a rational mathematical and reason-based guide for most of these dilemmas.

Of all the influences political philosophy is the most corrosive. It gave us communism that killed tens if not 100s of millions and created poverty for billions.

December 15 will be regarded as a watershed day in Australian politics. The Albanese government ended 2022 on a high political note with its energy legislation passing the Senate thanks to the Greens and independent ACT senator David Pocock. But that victory, we noted at the time, would come at an immense cost to taxpayers and consolidated revenue. A fortnight later the first penny dropped as the overlooked consequences of the package started to become apparent. As we reported, federal and Queensland taxpayers will be slugged at least $450m to reimburse owners of the Gladstone Power Station, including mining giant Rio Tinto, for the temporary $125-a-tonne domestic coal price cap that was central to the Albanese government’s legislation. There was no alternative. And the reimbursement is essential to maintain Australia’s reputation as a fair investment destination.

While Anthony Albanese claimed the compensation for Rio and its partners would be “nothing like” $450m, Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk confirmed the federal and state governments knew taxpayers could be slugged up to $450m to compensate Rio Tinto when the national energy plan was rushed through federal parliament last month. It clearly came as something of a surprise to the Prime Minister that one coal-fired power plant in Queensland could receive $450m in compensation for the coal price cap, as Judith Sloan wrote on Tuesday. “And that’s just for starters. At this rate, taxpayers could end up paying as much to power plants as the financial compensation to low-income households ($1.5bn) hit by higher electricity prices.”

Now the second penny is dropping. As reported on Wednesday’s front page, energy companies in NSW are likely to be compensated more than $500m by federal and state taxpayers for anticipated losses incurred under the national energy plan. Eraring, owned by Origin, is likely to be the main beneficiary as the Newcastle plant is one of the biggest coal-fired power stations in the state. For a relatively modest return under the plan of reducing the projected rise in energy bills this year by $230, the costs to consolidated revenue and/or taxpayers are rapidly piling up.

SM,

All of this is the result of almost 10 years of Coalition non-existent energy policy. Recently politicians both Federal and State (excluding WA who had the foresight to install a decent state based energy policy) had to act politically as the public demanded action on power prices. You speak of Queensland and NSW, two states both heavy reliant on power produced from coal, and at the same time are big producers of coal. Both have "enjoyed" long term governments, Queensland Labor, NSW Coalition, both unlike WA have failed to introduce a long term energy policy for the benefit of their states, now they have to pay the piper.

Please note NSW is run by the Coalition and has been for over 10 years.

The question of compensation for multinationals is a moot point, and maybe they should be required to give a little back to the rightful owners of the resources they so profitably exploit.

Paul,

The coalition's energy policy didn't involve doling out $Bns of taxpayers' money in subsidies and stealing from gas producers and increasing LABOR'S TRILLION DOLLAR DEBT.

Labor SA closed its coal-fired power generation and subsequently had two blackouts costing its people $Bns in spoilage and lost revenue.

Labor Vic stopped gas exploration in Victoria, tripled coal prices to Hazelwood and now is whining that it doesn't have the gas to keep the lights on.

SM,

Again you are being political, Labor bad, Liberal good, philosophy.Your big lie is "LABOR'S TRILLION DOLLAR DEBT". Everyone understands that's not true, the new Labor government inherited a huge amount of debt, substantially created by the Coalition during the pandemic. To my surprise the Coalition embarked on a massive borrowing and spending program, I expected that would not be the case, as in the past the conservatives have taken a "batten down the hatches" approach to economic storms, not this time. I could go into all the wasteful things they did wrong with borrowing and spending, they panicked and a trillion dollars of debt with nothing to show for it is the result.

That's not our "energy problem" although massive debt does impact on the governments ability to deal with energy problems. With the notable exception of WA, the Federal Coalition, and State Labor and Coalitions governments failed over a long period to develop adequate energy policies, and today's kerfuffle is the result of those failures.

Paul,

Pot kettle black. You are accusing me of doing exactly what you did.

Energy policy is largely the remit of the states and most Labor states have cocked it up.

Labor inherited zero net debt and a surplus of $90bn. It was chucked out of government after 6 years of wasteful spending leaving a debt of nearly $300bn and a raft of expensive and unbudgeted programs.

From 2013 to 2022 Labor opposed and blocked almost every single spending cut and during covid agitated for increased spending. There is no way Labor can distance itself from any debt.

Now Labor is in power and once again is spending like a drunken sailor. LABOR'S TRILLION DOLLAR DEBT is Labor's responsibility now and will be for at least the next few years.

SM,

The above post of yours is full of inaccuracies and untruths.

"Energy policy is largely the remit of the states and most Labor states have cocked it up"

No, a national energy policy is essential, the Coalition made 22 attempts and failed to land one. The Labor state of WA has a state based energy policy, Queensland and Victoria have failed, energy policy is something lacking in the Coalition governed states of NSW and Tasmania, and in their time in office in SA they failed to launch any kind of decent policy. The ACT under a Labor admin is doing okay, not up with the situation in the NT.

"Labor inherited zero net debt" I assume you are referring to Howard to Rudd 2007, Not zero, it was $58 billion.

Rudd-Gillard-Rudd to Abbott 2013 $234 billion

Abbott-Turnbull-Morrison to Albanese 2022 $963 billion. That is an increase of $729 billion during the time of the Coalition regime from 2013 to 2022.

We can easily see who are the Grand Masters of Debt Creation THE COALITION.

But having said that, I'm not opposed to debt, per se. When governments take on debt it has to be measured, sustainable and of economic benefit to the nation. Rudd's modest response to the GFC was that, and Australia still has much to show for it today. Unfortunately Morrison and co, failed to be responsible with borrowings and debt during the pandemic, they took the drunken sailor approach. They borrowed in record amounts, then threw those billion at their mates in big business, the likes of Gerry Harvey. Now Australians are paying the price of Coalition financial incompetence, and they will be for the next 50 years!

The message is loud and clear, its through COALITION incompetence Australian's are now saddled with a TRILLION DOLLARS OF COALITION DEBT. You know it, I know it, we all know it!

Paul,

Now you are lying again. In 2007 Government's net debt to GDP was -3.4% or you don't understand the difference between net and gross.

https://tradingeconomics.com/australia/government-debt-to-gdp

SM,

When JH left office Australia owed creditors $58 billion, not zero as you claimed. Like asking a bloke how much do you owe on your car, does he answer 3.5%. I DON'T THINK SO.

Paul,

So, you are going for the "stupid" excuse then!

If Joe Blogs owes a finance company $10 000 on a car but has $10 000 in the bank his gross debt is $10 000 but his net debt is zero.

In 2007 Australia's gross debt was +$58bn in long-term bonds but a net debt of -$90bn due to the overwhelming financial assets owned by the treasury.

The house of cards starts to fold. Because of the price caps, the retail price of gas is increasing. Who knew? Apparently, everyone but labor and the gangreens.

"Multiple energy retailers across the eastern seaboard have stopped taking new gas customers and others are ramping up their prices as they struggle to secure ongoing supply from producers following the Albanese government’s imposition of a wholesale price cap.

Two of the east coast’s biggest gas producers have kept up their month-long suspension on offering new supplies after the government in December capped new contracts for wholesale gas in the east coast market at $12 a gigajoule for 12 months.

Australia’s second-largest energy retailer, AGL, has been unable to secure contract supply of gas for 2023, prompting it to cease taking new commercial and industrial customers, and forcing those whose contracts are expiring on to expensive default tariffs."