The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > The launch, the crash and the recovery of My School > Comments

The launch, the crash and the recovery of My School : Comments

By Chris Bonnor, published 1/2/2010

When you get into the business of comparing schools, with all this entails, there can be little margin for error - too much is at stake.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. All
“Without doubt our parents and the wider community have a continuing right to know that their schools are doing their very best for all our students.”

True.

So where will parents get this information. From a 10 minute parent teacher interview during which it is guaranteed that the teacher will tell the parent that the school is doing its very best for all students, regardless of the school.

I thought the data shown in Myschool was quite mild, and could definitely be added to. Boys and girls marks should be split, so that parents can easily detect feminist schools that have no interest in boys students, (and there are quite a few).

Injury rates for students should definitely be added, as such data is now readily available from business companies and organizations such as councils.

Data showing wastage should also be included at some time, so as to work towards a zero injury / zero waste policy for schools.

I also think there should be surveys undertaken of schools to determine how much a school purchases from Australia, and how much it imports. There is almost nothing left in most schools that is produced in Australia, and when teachers are continually asking for more “government spending” (a term used to hide the fact that this money is actually "taxpayer funding"), then the public has a right to know which schools place any priority at all on purchasing items and equipment from Australia.
Posted by vanna, Monday, 1 February 2010 9:24:41 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Chris

As a former principal and vice president of the Australia Secondary Principals Association I am amazed at the response by educators to this issue. In fact I have always been amazed at the reluctance to accept any notion of league tables and "teaching to the test".

It is the prime responsibility of all schools to develop literacy and numeracy skills in their students. Whatever else they do for students they is important but only in a secondary way. So, it is quite logical to test them nationally on these basic requirements. And to publish the results in a way that parents can make comparisons. To argue against this on the basis that there are a raft of factors as to why schools are different, do other things for students, etc, etc, to just a smokescreen that shows reluctance to be accountable.

Rather, the argument should be for more testing, including testing at a higher level. And arguing for principals to have the right to hire and fire. Let's face it quality teaching to the key and if you can get quality teachers to schools then sound results will follow.

Unfortunately over the last 30 years there has been a shift away from high stakes testing to the detriment of overall standards. The sooner this is addressed, the better. The My School website is one push in the right direction
Posted by Sniggid, Monday, 1 February 2010 12:07:30 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Some of our teachers, strongly aided by the union, & a compliant department, have been hiding behind this politically correct garbage, for too long.

A few years back, one of my kids required a very high OP, to be sure of getting the course she wanted. She was struggling a little with physics, & a little more with math C.

I started working with her, when I discovered her teacher could not have passed a math C exam, & there was no one, in our district who could coach math C. I asked her to bring home, her year 11 mid year exam paper, & her exam, so we could find where her difficulties lay. She was told that these were not available in school, or to be taken home.

After a half an hour of heavy discussion with the head master, including mention of legal action, I got the papers. I was sworn to secrecy as if a co-conspirstor in keeping this secret & dangerous stuff from other parents. I later discovered, they had been using this test paper for 4 years, & didn't want to bother with writing a new one.

This was only one of the unsatisfactory experiences I had with the Queensland education offered to my kids.

So I say, go get them July. For once I'm right behind you, as your policy is heading in the right dirrection. With this system, we should be able to weed out the totally incompetent from our teachers, as they become obvious. I believe, most of the better teachers would like to see this, as much as I, but can't be heard admitting, in case the union's listening.

I can't believe that our better teachers are happy with the "going through the motion" attitude in many of our schools.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 1 February 2010 12:31:49 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Until Myschool is a few years old and able to show which schools are improving, it isn't a great deal of use. In the meantime, a lot can be done.

First, make sure that schools can't cheat in NAPLAN by delivering papers the schools on the day of the test. It is an open secret that some schools coach children to the test, as the papers are received a week ahead of the test. Other schools 'merely' look at the tests and revise the topics covered in it. Does anyone work in a school which actually opens the test papers on the day of the test?

Next, re-introduce school inspectors. Teachers must be the only group of employees who work behind closed doors - literally. Support staff are the only adults who see them at work.

Then there is the right to hire and fire, which is essential. Having experienced both the public and private school systems as a parent, I know there can be a high turnover of staff at either, but the difference is that public school teachers will be off on long service or stress leave, or acting in a higher position elsewhere, while private school teachers are out the door if not up to standard, or taking permanent promotion elsewhere.

Teachers need to be tested too. Basic things like literacy and numeracy, which are no longer a given with the HSC or a Degree. You can't teach what you don't know.

Lastly, the State Governments need to restore funding to support all primary school children with learning problems or delays, so they can do as well as possible when they get to high school.

And it would really help if someone could explain the the Teachers' Unions that they do not, as non-elected public servants, get to set government education policy for their own benefit. If they'd taken that on board years ago, they would have higher standing in the community and probably a lot more pay.
Posted by Candide, Monday, 1 February 2010 1:40:08 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I have a child just gone into a Qld SHS in Y11.

Like Sniggid with the Math C story I fear we are going to have two years of a similar Math B one.

The teacher my child has been landed with is well known, amongst staff and students, to be functionally inept as far as teaching maths goes.

This is not our first experience of this teacher either.

But when this sad reality is raised within the school, or at the local GHQ, there is only a gushing support for the staff member offered.

This has been going on for years... and not just in Maths B.

No amount of Gillard's silly webpage will make any difference to the deafness the education system here in Qld suffers from.

I imagine all states are the same.

Of course, quite reasonably, it could be argued that not all students suffer under this person.

But, sadly, the consensus view of students is that if you cop this one, your results plummet, and you learn nothing beyond what you and your friends can manage to teach yourself.

The remedy? Students go to other teachers for the answers. Sadly, these teachers, while generously assisting with answers, never have the courage to up-end this person's career.

While no one wants to be told they are not up to the task, and it's time to 'shape up or ship out', and obviously there are social workers, coppers, librarians, physicists, truck drivers amnd so on who would all fall within the 'not good enough' category at work, we don't seem to focus too much on the standards involved with league tables on display that promise a 'better future' in these areas.

So, if we are to have league tables, with undeliverably high expectations, then it must follow that we have public humiliations via demotions, retrainings and sackings.

So, let's get on with it, and start asking the students and parents which ones to burn first!
Posted by The Blue Cross, Monday, 1 February 2010 3:17:28 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I think it's great, as long as the data remains quantitative. According to last night's news, old mate Rudd wants to expand the site by getting parents to rate schools in various areas - like initiatives to prevent bullying, extracurricular activities, etc.

The problem with this is that there ARE schools out there whose parent populations are particularly apathetic. The parents at my school are unlikely to know what we do to prevent bullying, to bring up students' results or to generate a caring, responsible community, as they tend not to engage with the school in any meaningful way. With around 2,000 students, we manage to get about 2 parents at each P & C meeting, and about a 10% turnout at parent-teacher interviews. Fundraisers are poorly attended, information nights are crowded with teachers but lacking in parents . . .

All of this is fine - after all, some people don't value education too highly, and others are genuinely too busy to engage with their kids' schools. But I do think it would be unreasonable to ask these parents to rate the schools they have shunned for the duration of their children's education. The data on Myschool is fine - it is factual, quantitative data. Injury rates, suspensions (per 100 students, or something like that, to allow meaningful comparisons), staff turnover - these are all factors that can be measured, and I am happy to see them included. Subjective ratings - not so much.
Posted by Otokonoko, Monday, 1 February 2010 4:12:28 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I should reply to Sniggid’s comment as it was directed to me. You must have missed the last section of my article because it is really important that schools are accountable and I suggest how it can be done better.

The problem is, as the article demonstrates, that only 30% of the difference between schools is explained by what schools do (as distinct from who they enrol). It’s not my opinion, the chief exec of ACARA himself regularly cites this.

So even before you start, the significance of NAPLAN as an explanation of the difference between schools and their relative worth is seriously flawed. It means that you must factor in all other differences between the schools otherwise you end up comparing apples and oranges. ACARA know this, hence the ICSEA index - which falls short of the mark for reasons I explained.

What Sniggid needs to show is evidence from anywhere that more testing and high stakes testing raises the quality of learning and the quality of schools. I wish you luck!

Candide’s suggestion (re-introduce school inspectors) is a partial answer to vanna’s plea (where do we get this information?). Independent professional assessment of schools is expensive but others do it (e.g. New Zealand) – why can’t we? And they use student test data as a valuable source, but certainly not the only source, of information.

The post from Queensland reminds me of another problem. Year 7 in Qld is at the end of primary school – the kids have been at the school for years. In NSW the Year 7 test is given after the kids are in their new high school for just over three months. And then we compare NSW and Qld Year 7 NAPLAN results! Someone needs to explain to me why this is valid.
Posted by Chris Bonnor, Monday, 1 February 2010 7:53:04 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Chris Bonner,
Maybe it is difficult to measure schools when there is not a national curriculum, and numerous teachers can’t even understand what they are supposed to be teaching.

Guess who opposes not having a national curriculum (and it is not the parents).

Measuring data and comparing one organisation to another can bring about dramatic improvements in both organisations. However I would not leave it to the schools to prepare and report data to the public. Left to their own devices, schools have not reported such data in the past, and it is now necessary for governments to report such data.

If you don’t like governments reporting such data, compare it to the situation where schools were not reporting anything to the public, who pay a considerable amount of their taxpayer funding to the schools.

I don’t know of too many teachers who DO NOT take the public completely for granted.
Posted by vanna, Monday, 1 February 2010 9:57:31 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Chris

Your recent post misses the point I was making. You want to cloud accountability by linking it to a process that is in effect "in house" within the education community. In other words a bureaucratic system that considers so many variables as to make really negative results being able to be explained away.

Rather we should consider what all schools have a basic responsibility for. That is to equipt youngsters with literacy and numeracy skills that will allow them to move forward into other areas of education and post education life. So, we test them and make the results public so that the customers, parents in the main, can make judgements about the quality of the product.

Principals should welcome this and in the government school systems push for the ability to hire and fire, and have full control of the resources provided. Fortunately moves in this direction are beginning to take place in Western Australia.

I know that educators generally have an aversion to high stakes testing. I have never been able to fatham just why this is. It probably relates back to the fact that teachers are one of the most unionised workforces in the country.

Nevertheless, principals are on a hiding to nothing by opposing the small step Julia Gillard has taken.
Posted by Sniggid, Tuesday, 2 February 2010 8:55:27 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I thought Chris Bonnor's piece was a typical example of the gulf that exists between the elites of this nation (such as him) and the general public, who as a number of other posters have remarked validly have had enough of the lack of transparency and the difficulties they face in getting information about their children's education

It is the parents who pay the taxes which employ the teachers and they have every right to know how their school is travelling when it comes to basic skills such as reading , writing, spelling and maths

Bonnor's disdain for that right to know exemplified by his sneering reference to "Transparency" only reflects his intellectual snobbery and contempt for the "customer" so often found among leftists.

Good on Julia Gillard for standing up to the antediluvian teachers union whose gloomy if not hysterical prognostications about My School have not been borne out
In a nation where the pressures of competitive economic life means having to measure up is faced almost daily by most workers other than teachers and academics it is time the latter groups also had to face analysis of their performances
Lastly I would suggest Mr Bonnor might usefully read Shaun Carney's recent article in the Age in which he indicated how he expects the Rudd governemnt to use MY School as a tool to enable it to gradually shift resources to the least well -resourced and well -functioning schools after its pre election commitment to the Howard schools funding scheme concludes with the imminent end of that program
Posted by Thomho, Wednesday, 3 February 2010 5:06:47 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"The problem is, as the article demonstrates, that only 30% of the difference between schools is explained by what schools do (as distinct from who they enrol). It’s not my opinion, the chief exec of ACARA himself regularly cites this."

I think you have to be careful with those figures. I suspect they have come from some kind of multivariate linear regression. That is we have to remember that correlation does not imply causation. 30% could very well be biased upwards or downwards.

Take for example the a simple example to illustrate my point:
Suppose that parents/Socioeconomic have no *direct effect* on their child's achievement. Suppose that only the quality of teaching affects academic achievement. Suppose those parents with greater income/education are better able to secure higher quality teachers for their children.

What will you observe in this example? You will observe a correlation between income/parental education, but to infer from this that it is causation would be incorrect by our very starting assumption.
Posted by Mr Brendan, Wednesday, 3 February 2010 6:48:38 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Differences between school play little part in the difference between children in standardized tests Pisa, the NBER studies on the Chicago lottery system and twin studies all point to it. Genetics, epigenetics and early child development all overwhelm the effect of schools. Even the famous marshmallow tests by Walter Mischel showed that outcomes for children are largely predicatable by 4. School readiness is a very good predictor of a child's school performance. Makes sense - as the child through their school life is taught by the average teacher. They do not get the average parent.

Why the ranking of schools is harmful is it is a distraction from the real causes of children's problems. Schools should do what they do well not have all their effort directed into things they probably have no influence. Parents, education is not a consumer good that you can shop around for.

An interesting side question for those who thing schools are so important is why Catholic/Anglican/Uniting schools are full but their churches are empty?
Posted by Fenton, Thursday, 4 February 2010 9:11:46 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Fenton asks about the full schools and empty churches.

Easy.

Howard undid the rules about 'school placing' and encouraged new schools, knowing they would be faith schools.

This bought the loyalty of hordes of voters, although probably didn't change too many votes... that is only a guess though.

The rash of faith schools helped to build the 'values' base Howard created from 1995, pre election.

The moaning about public school 'values' was run in tandem with the the 'values' debate.

Parents, too stupid to demand better performance for their taxes in public schools, bought an easy way out- so-called 'private' schools.

Education is a commodity in our society. Buying an education absolves parents from any responsibility in what goes on in schools... they've paid for it, it must be good.

But few of these people are real 'believers'. Interesting to see how badly the low rent faith schools are placed in this area. Will parents be demanding their money back I wonder?

Anyway, 'private' schools are filling because of fear, and laziness.

Having to pay fees also allows both parents to work flat out and feel good about doing it to buy their kiddies a 'chance in life', while at the same time moaning about having to pay 'a great big tax', or any tax at all for that matter.... while not thinking twice about the 'tax' nature of school fees.

How stupid can you be?
Posted by The Blue Cross, Thursday, 4 February 2010 9:59:51 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I would agree with Mr Brendan, also remembering that teachers originally taught the parents.

So if teachers are whinging about the current generation of parents, then it only highlights a previous failure of the education system.

It means that teachers did not teach the parents well enough when they were going to school.

A downward spiral develops, but its amazing how many teachers just don't get it.
Posted by vanna, Thursday, 4 February 2010 9:33:43 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
It’s always hard to have a conversation if you are on separate planets so I’ll let my awful politically correctness, (sneering) elitism, disdain for the right to know etc all go through to the keeper.

I guess one of the things I do get excited about is evidence. So when vanna says that “comparing one organization to another can bring about dramatic improvement” all I ask for is evidence that this works for schools. And I wouldn’t have an aversion to “high stakes testing” if it was a valid indicator of teacher and school effectiveness. Show me the evidence.

It is not true to say that “schools have not reported such data in the past” (vanna). What they have done is very patchy but I certainly started putting this data into school annual reports 15 years ago.

Schools should always need to be more accountable, but comparing raw test scores through an inadequate filter such as ICSEA isn’t the way to do it. I appreciate Mr Brendan’s cautions but this blowtorch needs to be directed at ACARA.

Isn’t the other problem in dialogue such as this is that we tend to project others into positions they don’t hold? In supporting independent professional appraisal of schools I’m not “cloulding accountability” (Sniggid). Just as any NZ principal if reviews by the Education Review Office “cloud accountability”.

My main concern has not been addressed: the data reported by ACARA does not sufficiently allow for variations in the enrolment profile of schools hence any resulting comparisons are not reliable. I’m still waiting for someone to demonstrate otherwise. Would someone please convince me that it is OK to compare test scores for two schools if one sets an entry test and the other can't?

In the future ACARA will substantially change the My School website to the point where we’ll eventually ask: why on earth didn’t they do this at the beginning? At the moment it isn’t good enough, and it isn’t just a matter of adding more - they need to fix what they’ve done.
Posted by Chris Bonnor, Friday, 5 February 2010 7:21:13 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"Would someone please convince me that it is OK to compare test scores for two schools if one sets an entry test and the other can't?"

What is the purpose for which you are comparing? I will assume that you are a parent looking for the right school for your child.

The question facing a parent is will my child do better at MacRob (A selective school in Mebourne) or school XYZ.

The whole point of comparing is because schools are different. What should be controlled is the characteristics of the students not the school itself.

Suppose that socioeconomic background independently affected academic achievement. Suppose your child is in year 9, has an academic ability of say 90%, and a given socioeconomic level of X.

Then the relevant comparison (not to say that myschool.edu.au provides this) is of all schools that taught year 9 students with a starting ability of 90% and socioeconomic background of level X, how are they doing in a 1,2,3 years time?

That sort of information would be much more useful, than what you have now. Because a school might be good at "value-adding" but you don't know whether that is because they are good at "value-adding" on kids starting off at 40% or 90%. And a school that is good at value-adding for the kids starting off at 40% wouldn't necessarily be good at value-adding to kids starting off at 90%.

That being said, what is useful about raw test scores (what myschool.edu.au does provide) is it gives you an indication of the peers your child will be surrounded by
Posted by Mr Brendan, Friday, 5 February 2010 1:26:59 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Chris,

As a libertarian I assume that the public has a fundemental right to access of information, and that in order to restrict public access to this information requires evidence of substantial public harm.

Further I assume by your excitment by "evidence" that you have more than political rhetoric and suposition to back your call to restrict the public freedom to this information?
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 5 February 2010 1:33:53 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear God... do parents live in a total vacuum that they have no ideas or even impressions about the schools in their areas?

Are parents so divorced from life around them that they have been waiting like gormless toads for a set of 'tables' to advise them what to do with their precious charges?

How pathetic can the modern parent really be?

And what is the point of knowing that X school in Victoria is better than Y school in Qld, when you live in some Godforsaken dirt poor hole in the middle of RARA land, where there is no 'choice' at all, apart from boarding school, at a rate per child that exceeds the average income in many of these places?

Why do people insist on a 'market' and not simply a quality education system?

Why would anyone 'choose' to go to a 'poorly performing' school?

And with all the 'choice' in the world, parents in Wheelyerbarrbak NSW will never get to send their children to anything but the local school... one of... in the local town, so who is kidding whom here?
Posted by The Blue Cross, Friday, 5 February 2010 2:18:01 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
So then I assume that you, Blue Cross, already knew the exact NAPLAN scores and all the other available information for every school in your area?

I find it highly offensive that you label parents as "pathetic" for not having information that they do not even have access to (at least here in Victoria).
Posted by Mr Brendan, Friday, 5 February 2010 2:23:09 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Of course not. But I have examined the reports for the schools in my town on the website.

The results are consistent with 'parent chat'.

True, some of the Vatican schools came up poorly compared to the major state schools, which did rather please me as these are used as a refuge for those who fear state schools and seek sanctuary in the 'private' system, but cannot afford the high cost faith schools.

And one of the real Xtian madrassahs came up very poorly, but consistent with the level of thinking from many of the parents that send their kids there to learn 'values' rather than get an 'education'.

The results are in-line with information available at each state school here, to those who seek it out.

Not from 'tests', but from a range of details including what staff, students and parents think.

OP results are displayed on school websites.

I label parents as 'pathetic' for not seeking out the range of information that is there already, and for making some effort to visit and understand schools, if they are so worried.

I label them as pathetic for thinking that any test result is the answer to what a school is like.

I know, for instance, that quite a few schools here in Qld were so mortified by the results last year they started to coach students, as approved by the Minister.

What does that give you?

I also label parents as pathetic for so meekly accepting the notion of an 'education market', abandoning state schools to lurch off to some not-so-much-different so-called private ones, paying a fortune in fees, and then moaning about 'paying taxes'....instead of taking the state school principal by the (metaphorical) collar and demanding some leadership and better results... and using the discipline system for those staff who refuse to shape up (assuming the principal is any good in the first place), and getting better value for the taxes paid already.

You say it can't be done?

Read about Chris Sara in Cherborg.
Posted by The Blue Cross, Friday, 5 February 2010 4:18:46 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Chris Bonnor,

Do it. Develop a measuring system for schools. If the education system is unhappy with the ACARA system, there is no law stopping schools from developing their own system, and then they can compare it to the ACARA system. Competition brings about eventual improvement.

Similar has been occuring in the area of university education, where universities and their course are compared and given a rating. The results are available in booklets that can be purchased at the local newsagency.

It becomes difficult to understand why there has been no complaint from universities regards this, but complaints when a measuring system is applied to high schools.

The Myschool system is very mild. I worked in a company that had over 200 target figures that were being measured and reported on. From that list there were about 15 major target figures, and these major target figures were written onto a white board that covered an entire wall of a large room. At 7.00 AM each day (Saturdays and Sundays included as we operated 24 hrs a day / 7 days a week), there was a morning meeting that anyone in the company could attend.

As a shift supervisor I had to stand and state why a target figure had not been met, and I had to state what had to be done to ensure the target figure was going to be met during the next 24 hrs. All this was written onto the whiteboard and left there for the day (to ensure we got it right).

The information on the whiteboard was also knowledge, and we began recording into notebooks, and eventually we included it into an artificial intelligence system for reporting. This reporting system highlighted what was outside of target, and it also printed out suggestions on what to do about it.

As well as developing these artificial intelligence systems for reporting, we were also working on a policy of zero injuries / zero waste.

Compare that to the current education system, and the current education system is in another era.
Posted by vanna, Friday, 5 February 2010 10:53:35 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy