I think the Bible is a magnificent work. It has majesty in its language, poetry in such books as the Song of Songs, a recipe for facing human suffering in Job and many other inspiring features. Its spare narratives are more often plot outlines rather than full-fledged works of literature. As such it has inspired such diverse writers as Thomas Mann, Leo Tolstoy and John Milton.

As Rhian points out one part of the Bible echoes another part and builds on it. It is an important part of our western heritage, and I think nobody unfamiliar with scripture can claim to be educated.

I read the Bible and get pleasure from it. Reading scholarly works on its origins heightens my pleasure.

However, much of it such as the begats is boring and repetitious. Much of it is contradictory, and it contains legendary material which should not be taken as anything other than that. One of the legends informing my attitude toward the Bible is the legend of the Golden Calf.

Exodus 32:4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. …. 32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

I feel that those who treat the Bible as literally true or as a guide for living in a world vastly different from the world in which it originated treat the Bible as a golden calf. They have set the Bible up as a God to be worshipped. It is a false God. I doubt that there are true ones.

csteele,

I am aware of this. What runner doesn't get is that these have been largely disposed of. I particularly think that Monty Python did the job well, and entertainingly.

Rusty

Cont...

Arg, sorry Rusty, cut off with the post limit.

To finish...

The next question is why hold these views when they subject one to ridicule from the rest of society? To many the longevity of the movement is unfathomable. The answer is simple, it affords one a sense of being persecuted.

From John 15 vs
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

Look at what is happening in China today. Evangelical Christians now out number Communist party members. The persecutions of the authorities have forced the movement underground. Because they are meeting in small groups that must split if the number gets more than a dozen or so the growth has been amazing. This is how it must have been in the early church.

The persecution of the Jewish people over the millennia have served to fiercely bind a race together in a manner that has allowed it to survive culturally vibrant to this day.

However in a religiously tolerant society like our own, where we don't put Evangelical Christians in prisons or beat them for their views, something was needed to give that sense of being persecuted. Fundamentalism/Creationism has fitted the bill nicely without the dangers the fledgling Chinese house churches face.

Every slight or barb directed at runner only enhances his sense of being persecuted by the rest of us and thereby strengthening his faith. So be mindful you are engaging in faith building here rather than enlightening through scientific argument.

CJ

No problem for God to take a rib. I would say He could just as easily design the rib taken to grow back just like in a bone graft. You can like your colleague Rusty ignore all the magnificent design that went into man or you can continue to adhere to the fantasy of evolution. Rusty displays his pride and arrogance. He writes
'Do try and remember that some of us also passed physics, chemistry, biochemistry, genetics, and anatomy in just our first degree and so you will need to "show working" like other backward students suspected of getting their answers from others.'

Sounds like the global warming 'experts' all over who have found to be fraudulent and dishonest despite their phd's from Harvard and the like. Evolutionist have the same record. Don't forget their are many phd holders in science who believe the Genesis account Rusty. I think I will believe them rather than your claim to omniscience.

Of course it's no problem, runner.

Fictional entities can do anything, within the pages of the fiction. You can be like many other twits and ignore the overwhelming evidence, any separate stream of which supports evolution.
You claim problems yet never even give a single real example, being informed entirely by little pamphlets from pastor. You do indeed need to "show working", and as far as I'm concerned, so does pastor. Neither of you can actually argue your case.

Yep, I'm proud of my hard-won knowledge and I am correctly derisive of little know-nothings like you who hide behind supreme ignorance as if it was an adequate substitute.

To give you a little parable: If you go to a very skilled mechanic and inform him that certain adjustments "must" be made because "your mate read somewhere", he will be rightly dismissive.

In a similar vein, I dismiss your views.

Could you *name* a few phD's that *really* support the genesis account? I can name many who don't.There are many many more phd holders named "steve" who endorse evolution than those of any name supporting all creationist accounts combined. This particular position of yours was long ago made risible by "project steve". Look it up, you nong.

Further: It is possible to get a phD in enginering, know nothing about biology, and "support" creationism. It is not worthy of the same respect as an actual biologist who supports evolution, see mechanic parable above.

As for global warming: There is a strong first-principles reason why the atmosphere is absorbing more heat. Undisputed. The only question is how long it will hang around and by what mechanisms removed. Do
read a science book, rather than the funny sheets handed out on the street corner by cranks.

Rather than trust your cherry-picked cranks who *claim* omnicience on the basis of fevered imaginings, I can confirm the opinion of the overwhelming majority of phD's that both eveolution is correct and that global warming is a genuine risk. No omniscience required, just plain old science, which you may have read about but I do.

Rusty

all this Rusty and you and your mates still can't give an explanation for origins. All we get is numerous idiotic theories dressed in pseudo science. Your arrogance towards your Maker is astounding. The Scriptures describe the state of your heart perfectly.