That's odd, Grim, I equate both sorts of believers, in tin gods and in AGW, and oppose them to sceptics, those who wish to suspend belief (and disbelief, really) until the evidence shows one way or the other.

Scepticism is the proper expression of the scientific method, while belief is often the grasping at straws regardless of the evidence, or lack of it. By definition, sceptics are not necessarily believers in anything, and certainly not believers in something for which there is inadequate evidence.

This is not to say that some sceptics don't WANT to be believers, just that they want more evidence, more data, on which to base their judgments. What they don't want is someone telling them what to believe but, hey, if that's your thing, go for it. Just don't call yourself a scientist.

Joe

runner.

Not only do fantasies arise from theism, not reality, 2 year olds have no faith. You forcefully instill it in their impressionable minds and continue to abuse their nature as they grow, usually by linking biblical compliance with unrelated rewards like prizes, lollies, praise - ala Pavlov's Dogs. Faith for humans is not an inherited trait. Only our genome.

Joy surrounds us - why exploit imagination and damage people for life?

Added to this in psychologically abusing our children, is the linking of individuality and freethought/creativity, curiosity, exploration of themselves and others with deviance, family breakdown, drug addiction, social rejection, crime... Your obsession with others genitalia and sexual orientation. Of course there's "the BONUS" - Jesus' Greatest Gift to MAN-kind, not "humankind" [women being second rate n all] - Hell: eternal torment.

Guy came from heaven but we're left with Hell - cause he loves us. Mmmm, kinky. Leather/mascara. Queen of the Jews?

Which a certain prophet built on 590 odd years later to terrify followers into killing others and themselves in his name. What keeps you going runner? Certainly not happiness or a love for others nor their diversity & that of life - noting your frequent attacks. No-one knows what heaven is like. Hell is described to the Nth degree. Fear my man - it's pure terror that drives you and holds you down - not hope for virgins or clouds.

Islam preaches Creationism, preaches Hell, acknowledges Jesus as a prophet. The entire Jihad trick, needs JC's input to work. Which kinda makes him a Christians worst nightmare. Or makes my claim much like all modern Christian creeds - made up on the spot.

Theology is fancy after all.

As for debates. Dawkins has been quoted out of context, even via video editing to appear as if he is agreeing with Creationists - or admitting Evolution is fake, and ID actual "secretly known to be real" science [see "Expelled..."].

Now, if God needs to lie, deceive, mislead and cheat to win debates... you might try thinking. Just once?

Why has religion got to be brought into almost every topic.
It is only a con, the worlds greatest scam.
You would be better off putting your time into realism.
When people recite religion, subjects become distorted, and unbelievable. Stick to known facts.

You dont "debate" with ignorant, closed mind, superstitious fools you ignore them. The point of debating is to win over you opponent with your argument. Since the godbotherers have no cogent argument they cannot be debated with.
As runner has shown the godbotherers "debate" is nothing more than vilification, platitudes and avoiding the issue.

"No gods, No masters!"

There is an idea from Jurgen Habermas which I think is appropriate here: that of the 'ideal speech situation'. (otherwise known as the "perfect speech situation".) This idea supposes that everyone ought be heard in inclusive and rational debate. And that the best outcomes result from the very inclusiveness of this process. Such ideas can be helpful for those seeking to make liberal democracy meaningful - assuming real inclusion and empowerment for citizens.

re: the idea of 'Creationism': what needs to be considered, here, is what is really intended by the concept. Many Christians today reject sweeping application of 'literalism' when it comes to scripture. Often it is assumed that there is a mystery behind the scripture that needs to be sought.

Personally - I do not believe that God "created the world - literally - in seven days". But I do think this is symbolic of something hidden - even though I concede it is something I do not understand.

Perhaps one thing that is required is a degree of humility on our part when it comes to our claims to understand the world. Modern science still cannot explain free will, sentience, consciousness.

Perhaps the world is a more dangerous place than we all realise.

And perhaps in this context we would do well indeed to be fearful.

That being the case: even though I find what appears to me to be injustice in scriptures - I believe that the idea of Christ as 'shepherd' has meaning in this context.

To close, though: Dropping the furphy of literalism, and admitting that the true meaning of much scripture is hidden - is a first step in engagement between religion and science. As has been the case with all generations prior: we would be wrong to suppose we know everything. And we should not reject out of hand and without engagement - when we do not understand.

Firesnake you write

'Now, if God needs to lie, deceive, mislead and cheat to win debates... you might try thinking. Just once?'

No doubt the Heavenly hosts will be having a good laugh at the pathetic attempt by the god haters to spread their dogmas. To see the clay waving their puny fists at their Creator is one of the most pathetic things to take place on the planet. The theology of these god haters and god deniers helps ease their corrupted consciences and stone hearts. Your vile mis representation of your Creator is a good example of this.