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The Forum > Article Comments > Gillard’s 'best practice' mantra > Comments

Gillard’s 'best practice' mantra : Comments

By Mike Williss, published 28/1/2010

It's clear Julia Gillard believes 'underperformance' by teachers and schools is the biggest obstacle to getting a world class education.

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The number of occasions that the "author" of this "article" places words in quotation marks might lead us to believe that there is more than a touch of "defensiveness" in his "position".

He clearly has no use for “best practices”, consigning them to the ignominy of mere quotes at every opportunity.

"Quite apart from the question of why the “best practice” discovery process needs to be pursued on a government-supported website instead of through collaborative and peer-reviewed professional processes..."

The obvious answer from the layman might be "because you are too lazy/scared/idle/incompetent to do it yourselves".

Nobody - not even St. Gillard of Perfect Wisdom - can ever have the complete answer to the problem of education. As a parent, I have seen for myself on multiple occasions that it is first and foremost the quality of the teacher, followed closely by the quality of the Head teacher, that determines the quality of education each of my children has received.

This holds true, incidentally, for both the public and private education sectors.

Nevertheless, some form of external assessment of outcomes, however flawed, can only be of assistance to those wishing to improve the overall performance.

In the UK, OFSTED reports in detail on the performance of schools. The results are used to trouble-shoot areas of visible weakness, recognizing that at any point in time, 50% of schools will by definition be below average performers.

Key is, of course, visibility. Without it, nothing will change.

Let's hope that these precious flowers soon overcome their shyness, and start to work constructively to improve the process, instead of sitting in a corner with their fingers in their ears saying "I won't, I won't and you can't make me" like a bunch of spoiled kids.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 28 January 2010 10:16:12 AM
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Oh Pericles,

The UK is a mess. Parents camping out at schools to enrol, rabidly changing addresses and pressuring 4 year olds for tests to get the places in the 'Good Schools'. Schools using all sorts of ways to skew the tests. It's a circus.

It's all a joke. I'm a parent too, and a website with outdated information on tests the kids are doing 'for the school' that have no impact on their personally assessable work, that give a tiny indication of what a school can do for an individual is no use to me.

What of the kids' friends from previous school and their social happiness and it's effect on their motivation and morale. The particular good teachers in the 'bad schools' and the bad teachers or simple personality clashes in the 'good schools'. The distance travelled to the school, the co-educational or single sex needs.

The whole exercise is a political exercise for Gillard to distance herself from her socialist past.

All the information has been known to the government to allocate funds for ages. The parents have no need for such information.

Year 7 results after 4 weeks at high school bare no reflection on the High School and every reflection on the previous Primary school for a start.

I'll tell you a better suggestion than a fuel watch for schools. Have a web site that tells what government money is paid towards the schools against average results, and have the parents badger the government rather than the teachers.

In a world where nobody accepts their kids are 'below average', all you're doing is making some parents who were happy with their kids school and paying $30k for that feeling realise they're being naive, or making parents who had no choice in schools carry a stigma of 'If you really cared you'd work harder and get them into school X'

And all for a socialist to wash herself clean. Out damned spot!

It is fun sticking it to the Teachers union I grant you, but this exercise has about as much value as fuel watch.
Posted by Houellebecq, Thursday, 28 January 2010 2:29:23 PM
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This is such a complex issue - but I have to admit to checking out every school I know on 'Myschool' today as soon as it was up and running properly. I suspect that only interested parents will be bothering with it, but I'm sure many who are bothered that their school is below average, or in the lower fifty percent, will not question the actual scores, or level of literacy or numeracy, that it relates to. At our local primary school, where I work occasionally, they take pride in the fact that they ONLY look at the Naplan tests as soon as they arrive, but do not teach the children the actual questions and answers, although revisiting the topics in the test is seen as quite OK. Until the tests are delivered (electronically perhaps) on the day of the test, this will continue to happen. I hope over time the Myschool will show year-on-year level of improvement, which is harder to manipulate. On the question of resources, our school was pleased to receive all the extra funding it applied for to help lagging students (note that it has to be applied for and is a competitive process, which may put low performing schools at a further disadvantage if the Principal is part of the problem), but no-one has addressed the ongoing reduction of funding for low ability students by the NSW Education Department, which is a disgrace. Children who would, with support, develop basic employment skills, are being condemned to a lifetime on welfare.
Posted by Candide, Thursday, 28 January 2010 8:29:41 PM
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Tests, tests, tests, exams, exams, exams. What sort of tests or exam has the Hon. Gillard undergone to assure us that she’ll make a competent minister?

We, in Victoria, have just seen a minister leaving, but not before she had thrown one thousand three hundred and fifty millions of ours on a rail bus train ticketing system that when it will be ready will inconvenience all commuters, especially the old and handicapped.

No, she is not gone for good, she will come back to get her pension as ex minister for the rest of her life
Posted by skeptic, Thursday, 28 January 2010 10:50:03 PM
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Another article from the teacher's union who is scared that their member's poor performance might be shown up.

God forbid that some members might actually be accountable for their shoddy teaching. It is much easier to blame it on the kids.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 29 January 2010 7:28:47 AM
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Pericles:"it is first and foremost the quality of the teacher, followed closely by the quality of the Head teacher, that determines the quality of education each of my children has received."

Absolutely spot-on. I'm not sure how the Gillard plan helps one to identify those qualities, however.

Houellebecq:"The parents have no need for such information."

I agree, to a point. It does provide more data, which can be a two-edged sword. On the one hand, it may lead to better outcomes for relatively disadvantaged school populations, but on the other it may provide an excuse for draconian "interventions" and for more easily excused pork-barrelling.

It will almost certainly cause much misdirected parental concern and lead to an increase in the already intense competition that exists for State selective or "Centre of Excellence" schools.

Mind you, the article itself wasn't much of a factor in coming to my view. A turgid, self-justifying mishmash.
Posted by Antiseptic, Friday, 29 January 2010 9:14:04 AM
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Antiseptic,

The abilities of the teachers and headmasters are the prime influences in the performance of the children. The tables are not the only indicator of performance, but consistant poor perfomance against similar schools is a sure indicator that intervention is required.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 29 January 2010 9:47:12 AM
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I agree that it is the teachers that make the difference but the proposed best practice mindset does nothing to distinguish quality teaching despite demographic 'status' being applied.

A school that rates less well may contain a large proportion of high quality dedicated teachers dealing with a whole gamut of socio-economic problems. What is not shown is how much worse the school might have performed without those very good teachers, given other social disadvantage factors.

I attended high school in a very English working class city and for some students it would not have mattered how good the teacher was, they were always going to perform badly. On the other hand some teachers had different variants of success with disadvantaged kids. These teachers under the Gillard tables would still be reflected as inadequate, or would rate poorly. There was very much the mindset then that you did not aspire out of your class. Dad was a boilermaker or fitter so son will be too. Nothing wrong with that in a society that still requires a variety of different skill sets.

Parents aren't stupid. They know the 'good' schools and the not so good. The parent grapevine or personal experience has always been the best measure for choosing a school without all the bureaucratic gloss and sideshow.
Posted by pelican, Friday, 29 January 2010 5:39:15 PM
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What exactly does “commandism” mean. Perhaps “best practice” would imply using words that others can readily understand.

“we can share that best practice ... school by school, this information is vital to making sure we know where best practice is”

Good.

This is the path of progress, and it is the opposite to the insular, aloof and remote system that is currently the education system, where the most difficult thing is to get a teacher to actually communicate. Even students have difficulty getting a teacher to mark their assignments and return them within a short period of time, AND with some decipherable and easy to understand comments added to the bottom.

As far as Myschool.edu.au is concerned, another “Good”.

It has “.au” attached to the URL, which means that it comes from Australia, and it is a step towards retrieving the education system back from the Teachers Uinion, socialists and feminists that currently run the system, and handing the education system back to the public where it once originated.

It provides 3rd party information about a school, quite different from the biased information that a member of the public is guaranteed to receive from the principle or any teacher of a school.
Posted by vanna, Saturday, 30 January 2010 8:23:26 AM
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It sounds to me like some of these schools are running scared.
Whats the matter with a bit of online paperwork.
Maybe people will get to know too much.
Every body and thing has to be accountable.
Posted by Desmond, Saturday, 30 January 2010 1:43:11 PM
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The Myschools website mostly informs people of the blindingly obvious: that schools in higher socio-economic areas (both public and private) do well, and selective public schools in NSW do the best.
However, according to the Myschools website, we are expected to believe that a local private school in my area of Sydney- which charges over $20,000 per annum per student, has extensive facilities, and employs over 140 teachers with over 60 support staff for a student body of around 1200 students - has a student body with a much lower socio-economic status than the two local public comprehensive high schools (both well-regarded due to their location in a solidly middle-class area). Interestingly, according to the website, these local high schools employ half the teachers and a miniscule no. of support staff for student bodies of around 1000 students each.
How about this for a radical idea: future government funding (both federal and state) to private schools should pay for the teacher salaries for the number of teachers that the private school would have if it was a public school with a student body of its size. Private schools would then pay for everything else themselves (except for the curriculum materials provided free from state governments). This would free up lots of funding for public schools to improve both their facilities and the number of support staff. Pouring government money into private schools only seems to have resulted in them raising their fees anyway. Better public schools would compete better, therefore forcing private schools to lower their fees. Everyone would be a winner.
Posted by Johnj, Saturday, 30 January 2010 3:42:39 PM
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All this talk about "choice" etc is to me a glaring admission of failure. If a parent does not "choose" the nearest school to their home then it is a statement that the education system has failed as the local school is crap. The fact that many many children travel outside their local area to go to school shows that the system has failed completely. It would be preferable for no child to have to travel long distances to go to school. All schools should be resourced equally and adequately and anything else, especially something that sees kids travelling 2 hours a day to school and back, is inefficient, damaging and divisive.

Bring back the inclusive, comprehensive public school system we used to have and get rid of the elitist, expensive and indoctrinating private and religious schools that are scamming us and the system and dividing the community.

Oh and the shcools ranking website will be a disaster. Especially for schools ranked at the bottom who's students and teachers will be vilified, humiliated and effected in their prospects of gaining employment.
Posted by mikk, Saturday, 30 January 2010 4:12:34 PM
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Can somebody tell me under what constitutional authority does the federal government have to stick its nose into state affairs.

Or is it that the corrupt leading the gullible is ok.

People are always complaining about rights and here we go again, just throwing them away.
Posted by tapp, Saturday, 30 January 2010 6:22:43 PM
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JohnJ
It seems that there are plans to add to the Myschool website by the end of the year, with data relating to school funding. That data will include the fees charged by private schools, and how much funding is being provided by state and federal governments.

The (teacher’s) theory that educational outcomes depend on the socio-economic background of the students is rather suspect, (and may instead be something straight out of a teacher’s excuse manual).

Australia had 18 years of economic growth, during which time student marks declined on a national basis.

The theory is also easily put to the test in certain co-ed schools, where there can be a major difference in the mark’s of boy and girl students. Unfortunately, both the boy and girl students come from the same economic background.

In such circumstances, teacher’s attitudes and teaching practices definitely appear to be much more important than the socio-economic background of the students.
Posted by vanna, Saturday, 30 January 2010 9:39:49 PM
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Vanna,

I wonder to what extent children's performance correlates with their socio-economic status AND their teachers' expectations ?

In other words, is the AEU (and those who oppose publication of performance data) the greatest champion of the socio-economic status quo, of the notion that children should learn to know their place in society ?

Left-wing ? I don't think so.

Joe Lane
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 31 January 2010 4:56:24 PM
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Loudmouth,
I understand your point. Exactly where are these lower socio-economic status children.

I know of two public secondary schools located in the same electorate. One is a small school located in a town where parent income is static, and probably below average for the country. It has 39% of grade 12 students going into university.

The other public secondary school is twice the size and located in a town that is booming, with coal mining the main industry, and $100 per hour jobs are quite common. It has 14% of grade 12 students going into university.

I don’t know how this fits teacher’s theory, or perhaps the theory is too convenient (ie. No real efforts need be undertaken, as the students come from a lower socio-economic background).
Posted by vanna, Sunday, 31 January 2010 6:42:16 PM
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Mikk:

'Bring back the inclusive, comprehensive public school system we used to have and get rid of the elitist, expensive and indoctrinating private and religious schools that are scamming us and the system and dividing the community.'

Some perceptive and ineffably true words amongst a pile of rubbish. The commentary here reflects nothing so much as the ruling paradigm or 'frame' in which education is discussed/debated and wastefully and punitively tooled around with by politicians and lobbyists. It's all about 'choice' for the 'aspirationals'; education has been turned into a consumer commodity, a personal economic benefit rather than a national investment. Finland seems to lead the OECD in literacy, numeracy and science, according to testing, yet has a system completely free of national testing and league tables. It decisively pursues equality (and eschews 'choice') for all students; the teachers must have masters' degrees and are well paid and respected. Private schools are down to a 5% rump, mainly religious and Steiner-based, and receive the same grant as the public schools. In return they must charge no fees and accept all students who seek entry! School education in Finland is comptetely free - even classroom resources, books, stationery and students' lunches are provided. Here, even the poorest parents are asked for hundreds of dollars. Finnish society does not embrace socialism, but it does insist on educational equality; it does not submit its teachers to the sort of insinuations one finds here: that an article can be dismissed because, after all, it's just another teacher seeking to avoid being exposed as incompetent.

There is one blazing question for all politicians and parents who shun the public school system, one that is, surprisingly, rarely asked and never, unsurprisingly, answered: Why must we have an education system that simply does not provide every student with equality of opportunity? The name-and-shame tripe that is myschool does not answer this question, nor will it redress the wrong.
Posted by Rapscallion, Sunday, 31 January 2010 10:07:55 PM
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Well said Rapscallion. My point exactly. We dont need "choice". We need every school to be the best and every student given the best opportunity to reach their potential.
The current system is divisive and is leading to a breakdown of our egalitarian society and becoming more like a perverted version of English class stratification. The rise of snobbery, yobishness and great wealth driven elitism (all signs of class identity) is undeniable in recent years and our current schooling system will only exacerbate these trends.
Posted by mikk, Monday, 1 February 2010 11:24:05 AM
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Frau Julia's website was a curiosity item It has potential. As it is now, I look at a particular school's own website and am old enough to be able to tell for myself whether a school is good enough for my child. I'm checking some now to see if they are telling parents about the consequences of fear-driven national testing programs or where to go to check the consequences out. Fair's fair. Truth shouldn't hurt. All sites ought to make a form available for those who don't want their children to do the test, don't you think ?
Chris Bonnor and Jane Caro wrote a book in 2007 called "THE STUPID COUNTRY - How Australia is Dismantling Education." Its candidness about our movement towards a two-class education system was enlightening. Chris, highly respected Secondary School Principal, wrote from a practitioner's viewpoint. One is tempted now to write a book from a primary school perspective called "GETTING STUPIDER AND STUPIDER". Some of the chapter headings could be: 1. Plumbers are running the garage. 2. Does ASCARA rhyme with CASCARA? 3. It's the Principle of the thing. 4. How to teach toady schoolies to pussy-foot. 5. Evaluate, assess, judge, test, grade and appraise with ease. 6. What happened to my favourite subject? A pupil's perspective. 7. Short cuts to the 3Rs...Repetition, Repetition, Repetition. 8. How to detail an 'expert's' schooling qualifications on a postage stamp in large font.
Posted by Filip, Monday, 1 February 2010 11:25:20 AM
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"Consequences of fear-driven national testing programs"

This is serious baloney.

Testing is (or at least should be) an indication not only of a child's knowledge, but his/her ability to use it to solve / answer questions. Much of the revision would be to answer old questions as this would quickly show any weakness in the understanding of the subject.

It is also rubbish to think that the top private schools teach to solely to the curriculum. Top results come not only from teaching the curriculum in depth, but also expanding the knowledge base and understanding the links, which gives a far clearer understanding of the subject than the narrow curriculum.

That the top selective schools are almost exclusively filled by a particular population group who are tutored, and who get placement at university with those from would indicate that the rest of the publically educated population is either dim, or poorly educated, and the teachers are either incompetent or teaching incorrectly.

The universities place according to results not an airy fairy "good all round" education.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 1 February 2010 3:11:13 PM
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Ah the gullible people here who are to lazy, except to climb up the backsides of the political parties.

Now where does it say that the commonwealth government has any authority to stick their noses in state matters.

Since they do not then there is in fact no argument regarding this matter as the commonwealth cannot do it.

But sheep will keep following those at the front instead of checking the facts.
Posted by tapp, Monday, 1 February 2010 5:54:09 PM
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Thank you, Shadow Minister. Your attitude deserves a mention in the text as well as your support for the 3Rs...Repetition, Repetition, Repetition. I do appreciate it.
Posted by Filip, Monday, 1 February 2010 6:41:59 PM
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Filip

Considering that Chris Bonnor and Jane Caro both hold political views that are considerably left of centre, it comes as no surprise that they are strong advocates for public education.

Their solutions involve virtual nationalisation of the majority of private schools, and the forcing of troublesome (violent) and those with learning disabilities on these private schools.

While they acknowledge that these private schools are non selective, (unlike the public selective schools), because of the fees required, they tend to attract pupils from more acedemically abitious families.

It is interesting that these old socialists revert to type, and propose to reduce the education gap not by improving the public schools, but by damaging the private schools. The concept of choice is rejected for an institutional one size fits all arrangement.

Most of the problems of the public schools that they cite are largely self inflicted, due to the rigidity of teachers unions and governmental red tape.

If the public schools simply pulled their finger out and addressed the issues, the flight to non public education might be slowed.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 3 February 2010 11:21:17 AM
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Well done Shadow Minister Khan. One of the 'best practices' of losers is to deride the opposition. Not you best attempt, but keep trying.
Posted by Filip, Thursday, 4 February 2010 5:29:50 PM
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Filip,

By deriding me, your define yourself as a loser!

By your self contradiction I guess that makes you an oxy moron.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 5 February 2010 7:23:55 AM
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Sorry to disillusion you, Shadow Minister, but my step daughter went to Ascham in Sydney some years ago (it is is very highly ranked in MySchool and is considered to be one of the top private schools), and she was telling me today that she plans for her children to attend a school where they can do the International Bacaleaureat. Why - because her last two years at Ascham were spent doing test HSC papers and she thinks the HSC merely shows how well you can exploit the system, not how well educated you are. While it may be 'rubbish to think that the top private schools teach to solely to the curriculum', it is much of what they do, and the 'extras' come at considerable cost.
Posted by Candide, Sunday, 7 February 2010 3:25:49 PM
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I think you'll find your stepdaughter will have many to choose from, Candide.

>>she plans for her children to attend a school where they can do the International Bacaleaureat<<

There is a growing list.

http://www.ibo.org/school/search/index.cfm?programmes=DIPLOMA&country=AU&region=&find_schools=Find

From what I hear it is far more "rounded" in its approach, and well worth considering. My son's school is looking at it right now.

Does the teaching body have a view on IB vs HSC? I have only heard parents' views, all of which are pretty positive.
Posted by Pericles, Sunday, 7 February 2010 5:02:47 PM
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Vanna,I agree the differences in educational acheivement at the end of high school between boys and girls are not the result of socioeconomic status, but nor are they the result of differences in teaching (in co-ed schools kids are taught by the same teachers).
They are the result of differences in boys and girls - most particularly in their level of maturity when they finish high school (girls doing better because they start puberty earlier and therefore also reach maturity earlier). There have been studies done looking historically at end of high school results for boys and girls in NSW going back to the 1920s, and girls always achieved better educational results than boys (and still do). It's immaterial, however, as boys still end up earning more in the workforce, so don't feel sorry for boys if they don't get HSC marks as high as their sister's.
I am astonished however, at posters here who maintain that its some kind of teachers union plot when its pointed out that the majority of differences in school results are due to socio-economic status differences.
How do you explain then that comprehensive high schools in middle class areas that are doing so well as opposed to the comprehensive high schools in suburbs with large numbers of Housing Dept dwellings? Are we expected to believe this difference is entirely (or even primarily) due to differences in the quality of teachers at these schools? Various studies have concluded that having either good or bad teachers makes a difference of about 5% in final educational achievement of children.
Myschool is a whole lot of fuss about next to nothing. Real estate agents will be happy, however, as it will lead to more parents in Sydney moving into the areas of "good" comprehensive public schools which have to take everyone in their catchment (which was already happening, but will now accelerate).
Posted by Johnj, Friday, 12 February 2010 6:21:37 PM
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Johnj

Re: Girls and boys marks

I can’t find any scientific evidence that girls are more mature than boys, and I once looked at a considerable number of research papers on the subject.

However, I have heard this excuse directly from teachers, and they stated that it was what they were taught at teacher’s college (although there appears to be no scientific evidence for what they were taught at teacher's college).

They also said that boys “do all right” later on, which meant they couldn’t care less in the interim. It was a cop out by these teachers, as is the cop out that socio-economic backgrounds affect student marks.

Teachers taught earlier generations, and if socio-economic levels have fallen, then the education system only has itself to blame for the decline in socio-economic levels.

Unfortunately, I don’t know any teacher who understands this piece of logic. In all, I think teachers should be putting aside their excuse manuals, stop hiding behind the skirts of the teacher’s union, and start and concentrate on teaching.

I’m more used to working in companies where you were paid to solve problems and meet required targets, and not paid to whinge and whine and make excuses.
Posted by vanna, Sunday, 14 February 2010 6:20:14 PM
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