Israel is chiefly responsible for the Palestinian plight. Australia is chiefly responsible for the Aboriginal plight. The US is chiefly responsible for the American Indian plight. Christianity is chiefly responsible for the Jewish plight. And so it goes.

The anti-Israel opinions seem to me to be based on some pretty firm facts, and it is the Israel supporters are one-eyed.
Just look at the UN resolutions against Israel! Hundreds of them, all vetoed by the US yet supported by *everyone* else.
Call anyone who is against you biassed, sure, it is good rhetoric...just don't expect us to take you seriously so long as you are invading and suppressing other nations (Palestine), breaking international laws (Nukes) and threatening other nations (Iran).
The constant cries of "foul" and "anti-semite...what about the holocaust" are wearing pretty thin. Get over your victim-hood and stop perpetuating violence!

David F & Ozandy: You're both missing the point of this article, as is so typical with virulent anti-Israel proponents such as yourselves - leap at every opportunity to bash Israel!

The point of this article, if you need someone to spell it out for you, is targetting the IAJV. The group's leaders (Loewenstein et al.) claim that it is a balanced group willing to condemn all sides to the conflict.

This article exposes the fallacity of this claim - it is (yet another)virulent anti-Israel group, whose members merely use their Jewishness to attack Israel. Full stop.

Interestingly, one prominent Australian observer has noted that these individuals' "identity is solely negative based on a rejection of Zionism and Israel and it is arguably problematic to call them Jews at all."

Dear MEDBA,

Your post starts out with name calling. You have referred to Ozandy and myself as 'virulent anti-Israel proponents.' Do you want a serious discussion or do you want to bash people whose views you disagree with?

You also end your post with more bashing. You wrote: "Interestingly, one prominent Australian observer has noted that these individuals' "identity is solely negative based on a rejection of Zionism and Israel and it is arguably problematic to call them Jews at all.""

I have been a Jew all my life and have had a Jewish education. Never in my Jewish education have I encountered the idea that to be a Jew one must be a Zionist or support the state of Israel.

I do not favour ethnic nationalism or self-determination whether or not it is of the Zionist brand. Zionism is no better nor worse than other forms of ethnic nationalism or self-determination. I favour those countries which do not make distinctions among their citizenry on the basis of ethnicity or religion. If Australia became an officially Christian nation I would become a second-class citizen as I am a Jew. Having the same regard for others that I hope others have for me I cannot support a Jewish state where non-Jews are second-class citizens. I recognise that the formation of Israel is the result of Christian bigotry, persecution and murder. However, I feel that it is better to work for a world where all countries have separation of religion and state and regard a citizen's religious belief or non-belief as no business of the state than to establish another ethnic and religious enclave.

Apologies David F if I have offended you by identifying your simplistic political position!

Once again, you seem to be attempting to drag this forum discussion off topic - to the usual pro/anti-Israel debate. May I remind you again that this does not seem to be the article's intent.

Why don't you instead deal with the issue at hand - what are your thoughts of the IAJV? What are your views on the points the authors make? Also, what are your thoughts on the relevant issues I raise in my previous post?

Well perhaps if the Settler stopped murdering Palestinians, stealing and thieving Palestinian land,did not impose and Apartheid state,ceased removing Palestinians from East Jerusalem,and did not think that turning Gaza into a giant concentration camp,where the Israelis can kill Palestinians at will with bombs,bullets and starvation,some one might believe the Israeli propaganda dept who turn up regularly on these threads

I reckon the Goldstone Report will go much of the way to apportioning 'blame' if we want to establish a foundation for discussion that not only blames Israel but documents faults of Hamas.
However one fault of the IAJV statement is its assumption that Zionist Israel has any intention whatsoever of reaching agreement about a 'Palestinian state'. The real objective of Zionist Israel is to expunge Arabs from Palestine completely, commencing with starving those in Gaza who haven't already been killed, maimed or had their homes destroyed, infrastructure disabled and prevented from feeding themselves.
The United States will prop up Israel as long as they wish to maintain hegemony in the region and judging by Barack Obamas hollow rhetoric, he will continue to divide Arab unity by propping up Hosni Mabarak in Egypt and do nothing about resolution of the Israel / Palestinian conflict.
The authors are spot on when they realise that the only solution lies in a Secular State in Israel/Palestine and the abandonment of the Zionist myth of an exclusive Jewish State.
If they dont do it themselves, it will be forced on them as the world no longer accepts Israelis as victims but realises they are oppressors,practicing Apartheid.
Apologists for zionism are losing their credibility
Sanctions and Boycotts will force change

Hey boys,

'... virulent criticism of Israel is now so pervasive on the internet...'

the criticism of Israel isn't confined to the internet. It is widespread and it is appearing in most of the balanced western liberal media these days too.

Haven't you noticed how widespread it is?

And I'd bet you'd not even bother to wonder why?

And that is why you blokes are losing the propaganda war. Everybody sees all the facts and especially those you ignore or attempt to cover up with your usual weasel words and your propensity to try to engage thinking people in picky little irrelevant arguments.

At the risk of peddling my victimhood, I want to thank the authors for raising the issue about the role of the IAJV as a forum for more anti-Jewish and anti-Israel outpourings.
It strikes me as.. well a bit weird, really... that these Jews are so keen to ramp it up and and heap it on Israel, and other Jews who support Israel, and do so with such enthusiasm and virulence. I dont see them in Alice Springs' town camps where fellow Australians live in third world squalor.. Where they could so easily make a difference, rather than bleating from here. I guess its just the self-hating Jew syndrome rising again... And as for the other comments about the Jews being responsible for every sin in the world, and especially in the Arab world.. well, its an old story that cant be met with logic or reason.. These people just love to hate... Been around for a thousand years... But until 1948 they used to start a pogrom or two as a way of releasing their hate, but its a bit more difficult these days... Unless you regard terrorism and suicide bombers as the new pogrom standard, and the IAJV as the apologists.

Dear MEBDA,

My opinion simplistic? Governments should make no distinction as to ethnicity or religion of its citizens. That’s democracy!

I want nothing to do with the IAJV. They are mostly Marxists.

Please reread my initial post. The author summarised the position of the IAJV. I agreed with the summary. I think IAJV's contention is a valid one but pointed out that Israel was formed in reaction to Christian oppression.

We Jews have been oppressed in countries such as Czarist and Soviet Russia because most of us did not want to be Orthodox Christians or Marxists. We Jews have been second-class citizens in Christian and Marxist states. I think Israel is in some ways like the states where we have been oppressed. I have been a Jew for 84 years (partly before there was a state of Israel) and am mindful of our heritage. Part of my heritage comes from Rabbi Hillel who said “What is hateful to thyself do not do to another. That is the whole Law, the rest is Commentary.” We Jews have been second-class citizens in many times and in many places. It is hateful to me to be a second-class citizen. Therefore I cannot support a state where other people are second-class citizens.

I belong to a shul, am very Jewish and consider the state of Israel not ethically Jewish.

Jewish supporters of Israel may be ignorant of our tradition, history and religion. Their only connection with Judaism may be a primitive ethnic nationalism like any other yobbo patriotism.

Haffetz Haim (1838-1933), one of the founders of the anti-Zionist Agudat Israel, lived in Eishyshok, Lithuania, my grandmother’s village. When he sent books by tourists or travellers, he felt he was depriving the post office of its legitimate revenue. Therefore, before handing the books over he would weigh them complete with wrapping, and then go down to the post office to pay the money he felt he owed.

He was an ethical Jew aware of the wrongness of ethnic nationalism long before the establishment of the state of Israel.

“What is hateful to thyself do not do to another. That is the whole Law, the rest is Commentary.” Rabbi Hillel

Salaams David F

Christianity
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.
"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.
"...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6. The Gospel of Thomas is one of about 40 gospels that circulated among the early Christian movement, but which never made it into the Christian Scriptures (New Testament).
Islam:
"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths."
Judaism
"...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18
"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.
"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 6

The truth is there for those who open both eyes and seek it, with gratitude for every breath God has given them. It would be nice to discuss more, but invariable the neo-fascists (Paul Tang and co.) will hunt me down and i'm in no mood for their none-sense.

salaams

David F
I'd just like to add that I have read the views of anti-Zionist Jews (over the internet).

Can i ask: What is the characteristic flaw of a Zionist for a Jew like yourself?

The reason for this question is because i have also been doing some background reading on the deviants of my own religion (Karijites, of which the Wahabbis are a modern manifestation). Their herecy, dating back to the time of the Prophet, is described as preferring their own opinion to that of the Prophet and the learned scholars.

The Prophet said of them: “There will arise a people from among the progeny of this man [refering to a person who had just rebuked the Prophet] who will recite the Qur'an but it will not go beyond their throats. They will pass through the religion as an arrow passes through its target."

He then instructed his followers: "Be kind like me, be compassionate, love the poor and the destitute, be gentle, care and love your brothers and be protective."

(ref:http://www.sunnah.org/history/The%20Kharijites%20and%20their%20successors.htm)

I would be interested if you were able to go deeper into what your scholars say as it relates to the Zionist agenda. In what ways do they deviate from the Jewish teachings?

Should the neo-facists appear with their none-sense, then God-willing I'll depart, so as not to have the thread de-railed :-)

salaams

Dear grateful,

You asked: "What is the characteristic flaw of a Zionist for a Jew like yourself?" That question assumes there is characteristic flaw of a Zionist. I think that is a bad question because it assumes that I would regard a person who has a different opinion from mine as flawed. It also implies that Zionists are alike.

I favour democracy. That means that people with different opinions can come together and after discussion and debate reach an agreement on a course of action. If we start out with the assumption that those who disagree with the position we hold are flawed rather than simply disagree we are putting ourselves as superior to those we disagree with.

You may as well ask a Zionist, "What is the characteristic flaw of a non-Zionist for a Jew like yourself?"

All Zionists are not alike. Israel has a number of Zionist political parties with different agendas. Some Jewish scholars support Zionism, and some don't.

When a religious person refers to a heresy that generally means that a co-religionist has an opinion with which the person disagrees. I would rather not talk of heresy and flaws.

Catholicism has a Pope who puts out magisterial rulings that apply to all Catholics. However, there is no central authority among Jews. The Talmud contains records of various discussions on religious questions among scholars. There is no person who can say one recorded opinion is more valid than another recorded opinion.

I have stated my opinion and speak only for myself. I believe that we may create democratic governments that do not distinguish among the citizenry on the basis of ethnicity and religion.

Other Jews believe that anti-Semitism is so ingrained in western society that a Jew cannot expect continual fair treatment and must have a separate state. They point at what happened in Germany under the Nazis.

Their fears override their hopes. My hopes override my fears.

Maybe they are right. Maybe I am right. I honestly don’t know. We differ, but that does not mean that one of us is flawed.

David F,
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree that when it comes to the question of a Jewish state then Jewish opinion may be justifiably divided depending on, as you put it, a balance between fear and hope.

However, when you quoted Rabbi Hillel you were referring to the consequences of the Zionist project for other human beings (i.e., the treatment of the Palestinians). As I read it you were saying their treatment is wrong and violates the law upon which all other righteous and ethical conduct is founded: “What is hateful to thyself do not do to another. That is the whole Law, the rest is Commentary”

I do not think anyone here would say this principle is a matter of opinion: it is profond guidance to good character and conduct. Individuals that persistently violate this principle must be devoid of compassion for other human beings, to say the least. They are seriously flawed individuals.

A settler was interviewed after occupying the house of a Palestinian family and asked how he could justify his actions before "world opinion". His reply was that "They will not stop us. We are the chosen people and the world knows that."

I would seriously like know how they justify themselves before God. They have all the trappings of the religious and pious but their conduct is evil.

To me these people are just as vile as the Karajites or their Christian counterparts. They are very flawed human beings.

I wish you well and salaams

Dear grateful,

I have the same opinion of the particular settler as you have. However, I don't think all settlers behave that way, all Zionists are not settlers, and all Zionists would not occupy the homes of a Palestinian family.

To equate that settler with all Zionists is like equating all Palestinians with terrorists or suicide bombers.