Andrew,

It amazes me that jails aren't used as educational pathways, that they are not set up so that prisoners have more education and/or skills when they come out than when they went in. Maybe this is putting too much faith in the redemptive power of education but even the most poorly educated prisoner can surely be given skills to improve their legitimate employment opportunities when they are released. How's this:

* prisoners should be given the option of doing their time, no parole, OR

* depending on their current educational or skill level, they are given the option of finishing a course equivalent to HALF of their sentence, then they are eligible for parole.

Even if a prisoner is completely illiterate, he/she is given the option of becoming literate, doing further study or gaining further trades-type skills, depending on the length of the original sentence.

If some guy is in for some horrific murder and gets, say, twenty years, then if he finishes ten years of study - yes, up to Ph. D. level - then he is up for parole.

Maybe most prisoners won't or can't (brain damage) take up the offer, but for those who can and do, maybe a special wing, or even an entire prison, could be designated and staffed appropriately.

I'm not much fazed by the annual cost of prisoners - the annual cost of having them on the streets is far higher: I had a mate on heroin who burgled two or three houses a day for a year - what do you think that might have cost the community, @ $ 10,000 a time ? And what would the annual cost of education amount to, if there is, let's say, a 50 % chance of reducing recidivism ? Peanuts.

Of course, it would take a change in the philosophy of penal systems, from punishment to possible future prevention, from revenge to possible reform. But in the cold light of cost-effectiveness, it might be worth trying. And if an ex-prisoner re-offends, no problem: longer sentences and/or more study.

Joe

Bl//dy Hell
Haven't anyone woked it out gaols are now becoming owned by private enterprise they don't want crime cleaned up as this will stop the turn over hence less profit
The private ownership requires a revolving door to keep the gaol population up
It is not that hard to work out
Why do you think the Governments are not doing much about the street crimes,alcohol abuse, drugs, violence etc because the privately owned gaols need a steady turn over for profits
Thanks
From Dave

Andrew

Prisons do work incredibly well for criminals and the private enterprises that run them. (I'm with you Dave).

Even if policy makers braved the shock jocks and their ministers ignored for a while the opinion polls that tell them which side of the bed to get out of (the one where the barmaid isn't), prisons would still work well for the criminals and private enterprises.

No matter what the will, the entire conceptualisation and history of prisons is about penalty not reform. Changing it's a hard road.

From what I understand, up to 50% of those in prison have some form of mental illness which makes it difficult to operate in society, and these are the ones that return time and again. Many, but not all, are sociopaths with tendencies to violence.

The prison system in addition to its rehabilitative function, is there to act as a deterrent, and finally to remove dangerous criminals from society.

Often the problem is exacerbated by housing those that could be rehabilitated with those that can't, resulting in the rehabilitation of none.

While prison reform is needed, not all can be saved.

Well, yes, we can curse the darkness, Dave, Baxter (it can be very satisfying) or we can light a candle. Nothing will ever work perfectly, reform won't always work. Yes, evil forces will try to make a buck out of any form of human misery, private prison owners, chain-gangs, farm labour, whatever.

So what do we do about it ? Is it possible to get some criminals back on track to lead lives so that they are not a danger to others or their property ? Can we differentiate among prisoners with incorrigible brain damage, prisoners who are of more or less normal intelligence but total psychotics, and prisoners who might be able, and willing, to turn their lives around ?

Joe Lane

Well Joe
The first step is to clean up society itself and get to the causes of most of societies problems
That being that which the Governments with the big "Apology" was over, the abuse of the children and the removal from Attachment and Bonding figures = Less depression, less self medication (alcohol and Drugs(legal and illegal)),less Violence (home and street)
Next decriminalising drugs as the "War on Drugs" has failed = less break-ins, burgulary, robbery and less violence
Bring in a "real" equality of society and get rid of the gender fight that we are in the middle of which is controlled by sex discriminating Governments with a Minister for Womens Affairs and have an equal counterpart, Minister for Mens Affairs
Then what have we left with those that would have some form of Mental Incapacitation which would be able to be assessed as to the capacity of rehabilitation
This would not probably solve all but it would be a big improvement
We have got to start at the base and the cause though and that is the children and Attachment and Bonding
In relation to this A&B read John Bowlby Attachment and Loss, The Trilogy

Thanks and See Ya tomorrow
From Dave

I like this idea. Normally I am totally opposed to privatisation but with the right rules and payments this could actually work.
How would such a scheme work? Would the company get payed if after a year an inmate had not reoffended or would they get penalised and lose money/payments if someone reoffended? Education and rehabilitation are expensive and may be seen as throwing good money after bad if it did not result in a reduction in crime and prisoners. I could see charities and church welfare groups being good types to run such schemes.
I think we should try it.

If we are even a tiny bit serious about making prison work we will make it more unpleasant to be there. Singapore has low crime rates and I suspect far less going back to prison after release. I had to laugh recently when some illegal Indonesian fisherman were earning far more money in prison than they could earn on the boats. Many Indigenous have better lives in prison that their violent home lives.

The reality is that their is little reason for many criminals not to go back to prison. The risk of murdering, raping supplying drugs is worth it because they know gaol is not that bad once you know the system and know who to give your smokes to for protection.

Part of the waste of money is having to maintain a totally flawed parole system, hire Psychologist who really can come up with nothing better than blame the criminals parents or upbringing

I suspect like with parenting, deterrents would be by far the most cost effective method. In this pc world this commonsense will be simply scoffed at and we will spend millions upon millions more ignoring simple reality. We would not want another black mark against the UN would we

Andrew,
it seems to me that in principal, you share one flaw with the establishment with regards to prisons.

that of the economist/accountant. The idea of people can be categorised/dealt with fairly accordingly. IMO the Accountant mentality that makes every one a bugetable item in advance limits the correctional options available resulting in 'one size fits no-one'.

I would add to SM valid point that many are there as the consequences of mental illness, those who (given our understanding and ability) are incorrigibles, redeemables and add the extreme circumstantial (those that probably won't offend again) and the indigenous (who are disproportionally represented).

My problem is the housing mixing of all these types in a unique 'prison brotherhood' mentality is both a toxic mix and ultimately counter productive.

It is more than a truism to say some go in as unhappy confused inexperienced people and come out as skilled crims.

Clearly more education/work skill options in the above context are only part of the solution.

The public is imbued with the mind set of simplicity i.e. we are good, crims are bad.
In that 'circumstances' are foreign language and they prefer to deny on not think about 'all but for the grace of God (circumstances) go I'.

Hypocritically they choose which laws to honour and when. Defending their breaches by claims of degree, "it was only once" or by comparing them to extremes and claiming THEY are good people. Never once realizing once that the same can logic apply to crims. Neither does it dawn on them that not all crims are the same nor necessarily intrinsically bad people....just people.

Sadly a large minority of society is unable unwilling to change their attitudes to accept budgets that are more than those suitable to pay for warehousing.

I'm all for rehabilitating the reformable and throwing away the key with the irredeemable.

Strikes me that Prison is a pretty much "one size fits all" institution with fairly minimal variations according to age (juveniles). I would suggest that to reform, the system would need to cater for several levels of 'criminality' based foremost on the seriousness of the crime, mindset of the perp and previous criminal history, followed by more detailed assessment based on age, health, ability, social background and experience.

Violent offenders of the thrill kill ilk, serial rapists and similar should have exclusive facilities - preferably in the middle of some desert where escape would mean certain death from thirst and exposure. These people are FITH (medical shorthand for "Fckd In The Head") and should not be foisted upon society ever again unless rendered completely incapable of harming anyone or anything.

Non violent offenders should be kept separate from violent offenders and preferably the first-time convict be kept away from the professional crims.

I liked Loudmouths ideas - give crims a choice - reform in a meaningful committed way or do the full time. And make prison less comfortable. Not suggesting it is an easy place to be but there are far worse it seems for some.

Also quit pussyfooting with young offenders - quit the repeated 'slap on the wrist' approach that sees them laugh at authority and form the belief that they can get away with just about anything. Smack em hard with early reform measures. Might just save their lives and the taxpayers a heap of money and angst

It's wonderful to see such fresh thinking Andrew. Your suggested reforms however, need to complement a major new national emphasis on early prevention programs for juveniles.

Helping young people to turn their lives around with intensive mentoring and support facilities, is what's required. Let's deal with any mental problems effectively as soon as they emerge.

Let's try building flagging self esteem, team work and life skills. These are proven strategies for saving society millions of dollars and a better quality of life for each person saved from a life of crime.

Sadly, fresh thinking is almost totally lacking at the state level where the mantra is: 'build more prisons'.

It's time for national reforms that encourage local strategies that are co-ordinated with local communities through local government community development staff, local courts and local police. Empowering communities to make a difference to the root causes of regional crime is where we should be heading.

It would be nice to think that someone could go from illiterate heroin addict to finishing a doctorate but maybe training in a diferent area would be better.

Personally, I think we should introduce "work for the gaol" where the prisoners work 40 hours per week.

I can think of plenty of things that need to be done in the community that the government either doesn't have the money or the resources for. There's a workforce of about 25,000 prisoners in Aust.
- Road building and maintenance (there is plenty of the Pacific Hwy in NSW that needs work)
- Fire hazard reduction
- Cleaning our parks / waterways etc
- Building / maintaining community housing
- Cleaning up grafitti and repairing other damage caused by criminal acts.

All of these would give the prisoners skills that would help them to be employable on the outside.
You could even include TAFE studies for those who have the aptitude and motivation to come out of prison with trade qualifications.
Pay them the same amount as the dole if they work (no more, otherwise unemployed people might go to prison to get a paying job). Give them bonuses for production targets. Maybe when they get paroled, they get the opportunity to spend 12 months as a "supervisor" of these work crews on proper pay to help with their transition.
Those who misbehave or don't want to work rot in their cells, get paid less and serve out their full sentence.

Thank you, Divine Ms, you're obviously an intelligent, beautiful and good-hearted person.

Thanks also, Burbs, it had not occurred to me that an illiterate person, perhaps with no English but with brain damage, could gain their Ph. D, through all sorts of adversity - if it had a sound-track, it would make a good Hollywood movie.

But the realities are more like horses for courses: to move an illiterate person with no English just that little bit along the road, to where they are literate and speak English, in, say, a couple of years. Realistically, the aim should be to provide prisoners with substantially more skills than they had when they went in: so maybe someone with Year 11 or 12, and a fifteen year sentence, might be able to approach Ph.D. level in that time.

Obvously, it depends on the two factors - what is their pre-prison education level, and how long is their sentence ?

Okay, a third factor: how brain-damaged are they already ?

Prisoners already do some work, I believe, on appropriately lousy pay and fair enough. Those who choose to study full-time may already be eligible for Study Grant, which would be quite an incentive on its own. And I agree that prisoners should have the option of staying in their cells and rotting, doing some boring and menial work, or studying. It should be their choice.

Joe

LM,

Glad my post was enlightening for you. If you need any more tips let me know.

“As a nation where a convict ancestor is a badge of pride, Australians know better than anyone that life can have a second act. The challenge today is to encourage our corrective services to correct, not just punish. Can we make jail work?”

It seems obvious to me that not the article author nor many posters, when I read the ignorant drivel like the above and the posts, have ever seen inside a prison.

In Victoria there is a directive which requires every prisoner to be employed in a productive “work activity” for at least 30 hours a week. That might be in a prison factory making saleable products or service, like laundry, kitchens etc.

In victoria most prisons have available education programs,run by external TAFE colleges and some have remedial psychological clinical courses too. Both of which which alternate for “work” time.

I would also observe that far from “one size fits all” notion expressed here, prisons are classified from the open style such as Tarrengower, with no walls, to the maximum security “Barwon”, designed for the real nasties with medium and lower security prisons and special prisons for special category offenders who would be at risk in the normal prison population.

However, we must remember that the biggest single influence on recidivism and the reforming ability of any prison system is the “prisoner”.

Prisoners come in all shapes and sizes and for all sorts of offences but one thing is certain, prisoners are not “model citizens” because, if they were, they would have avoided prison in the first place.

The biggest challenge to any prison system is to turn the patently defective individual into the perfect and socially repsonsbile individuals, which you all seem to expect will come out of a penal system

Get real people, it ain’t ever going to happen and anyone who thinks it is probably thinks that fairies live at the bottom of the garden but in victoria all the fairies are locked up, mostly in in Ararat.

What no quote from Baroness Ridiculous.
Wild assumptions again complete with your open and shut mentality, topped with your usual dollop of arrogance and insults.

I was raised on a prison farms (dad was the boss) and have spent years involved in prisoner aid.

You really should buy an up to date calender

LOL Col - fairies indeed. But seriously you speak like someone who has knowledge and experience of the system, at least in Vic.

Can anyone comment on whether there are marked variations between States?

I will concur the average prisoner is not there because they were caught riding their pushbike without a helmet. However there is a significant number of people doing time for welfare and other fraud, fine evasion, culpability ie dangerous driving (or other irresponsible or negligent behaviour) causing GBH or death, drug dealing of modest proportions ie well down the supply chain - in other words boys and girls who would in many cases benefit from being segregated from violent offenders and being offered vigorous rehabilitation.

Realise that some prisons are higher security than others but am also aware that in most the population is an eclectic mix of criminals. I would continue to argue that a tiered system would probably maximise opportunities for meaningful reformation and prevent some from coming out more adapt offenders than they went in. This may be even more true of the juvenile detention system.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/26/2754284.htm?section=justin

Does this ring any bells?

The article does not deal with ways in which recidivism could be reduced through any actions that prison staff could take or with any of the very substantial information on why there are so many people in prison!

In a review of the book “Dreams from the Monster Factory: A Tale of Prison, Redemption and One Woman's Fight to Restore Justice to All” by Sunny Schwartz, with David Boodell in the New York Review of Books for June 11 2009, Helen Epstein points to the discrimination against people of colour and mentally disturbed people who disproportionally populate jails in America and most other countries. Scwartz has been running a suite of programs under the title Resolve to Stop the Violence Project, or RSVP at the San Bruno prison in California. These have significantly reduced the recidivism rate. The programs are based on restorative justice in which prisoners confront the behaviour which led to their crimes and the consequences. There are a number of similar programs in several countries. Post-release RSVP “graduates” are linked up with youth violence prevention groups and campaigns.

Simply reporting on recidivism rates, whilst of some value, won’t get us any further than leagues tables for school end of year tests improve education outcomes. It suggests replacement of staff or perhaps privatisation. As a number of commentators have already implied, we need better than that!