Davidf,
True, however the negotiation had been going on since 1901 after the world convention of Jews (it had another name but I cant recall it). I should have said that there had been negotiation along those lines.

Chris,
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. It was just I rankled at the idea that we should focus on the good as indicated by you.
As I stated History just is, time machines don't exist (except maybe Dr.Who and he's busy with aliens) so there's not a lot of point spinning it either way.

I'm saying that we should recognize the past and should work towards not repeating the it.

We badly need a new economic paradigm this one is a house of cards.

I'm not convinced Australia should have given tacit support to Indonesia about East Timor.

We weren't obliged to follow Bush 2 into either Iraq or Afghanistan. Sure there was arm twisting but it was largely because of Howard's flawed philosophy and later the even more so 'special' relationship. But that's water under the bridge. I question the morality of our part in wars as a marketing opportunity.

I believe that we should assert our independence a bit more neither am I advocating the opposite extreme. I mean the US has some outrageous attitudes that they are a law unto them selves particularly with extraditions and not being prepared to give evidence or even prima facae proof.

I wonder at the wisdom of our military direction with tanks etc. To fight wars in other continents while giving little attention to our approaching Climate wars. Especially with military purchase lead times.(interesting article on Unleashed about it)

I also wonder at our long-term wisdom being seen locally as the US deputy sheriff yet loyal puppy by the US. Perhaps we should have a wider more long term view which may include a relationship with the US as well. Remember ANZUS only means consult. Their politics are becoming more in-ward focused.

Come the revolution comrade, I'll look after you with a plumb job.
;-)

@ plantagenet: "This day is for remembering those who sacrificed their limbs, minds and lives for what they thought was right at the time, or hoped was right."

I was to pose a serious question to you and whoever else:

Why do we only remember the war dead of our own country and allies?

@ dwg: "I just wonder what those that died and fought for in the first world war would think of this country today
With the child abuse, drugs, alcohol,violence and corruption that is rampant in our society today."

You sound just like someone else I read about:
"The Nazis looked back on the Weimar republic, the Germany immediately preceding the Nazi takeover, as a society that had granted equality of status to women contrary to their natural biology and thus had estranged them from their function as mothers and guardians of the home. The result, the Nazis and their conservative allies had said, was destruction of the family, loss of respect for parents by children, growing assertiveness among women, and vast growth in homosexuality and prostitution, so much so that Berlin, in their eyes, had become the sinful Gomorrah of a degenerate civilization."
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/GESUND/ARCHIV/SEN/CH18.HTM#b1-NAZIS%20AND%20SEX

An old digger once told me: "Watch out for the wogs with their knives and the chinks with their hats".

Food for thought.

Emerson, I really tried to find something of value in your post, but all I could find was a repugnant suggestion that women shouldn't be valued as equals, lest it lead to societal instability. If I got it wrong, feel free to correct me, but as it stands it's quite disgusting.

On the whole, I concur with Chris.

It's all very well to lob hand grenades into these topics. I'm the last person who is likely to shower glory upon those who opt for war over peace.

However, I'm one of those pesky realists who accept that regardless of the ideal outcome, sometimes we have to make tough decisions.

And, when compared to alternative outcomes, I don't consider these historical events to be the worst case scenario.

Not by a long shot.

And the harshest critics also seem to be the most silent when it comes to realistic alternative versions of history. Which leads me to believe that the choices quite possibly were the best of a bad lot.

Until I hear, at the very least, some kind of indication to the contrary, that's all we've got to go on. As yet, nobody has stepped up to the plate.

Emerson,
So you would cosider that this

"country today
With the child abuse, drugs, alcohol,violence and corruption that is rampant in our society today."

is an acceptable life to bring our children up in and to leaxe them when we are gone

One word to describe that
CR4P

Thanks from
Dave

Hi TurnRightThenLeft,

Yes definitely there's been some misunderstanding.

I will try to be clear here:
Some posters such as "dwg" often express his/her opinion that our society has become something of a cess-pool of moral degradation. And that "those that died and fought for in the first world war" would probably be ashamed of our society today. I quoted a passage from "Human Sexuality: An Encyclopedia" (http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/GESUND/ARCHIV/SEN/BEGIN.HTM#Contents) to show that the Nazi Party held a similar stance. This had already been brought up in a recent discussion where similar sentiments were expressed. (Warick Marsh's article "Man up - save our children":http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=9593) The main point being that one should be very wary of people who are on a 'moral crusade'.

Does that clear things up a bit? So, I was quoting something about the Nazis, not endorsing those views myself!

@ Emerson

"Why do we only remember the war dead of our own country and allies?"

Mainly because we are human - we remember those most like or closest to ourselves. That is the remembrance worthy in itself.

On allies - strangely our mourning is very much tied to defence of Britain in two wars. We rarely seem to remember the servicemen of the US who defended Australia close offshore in the Coral Sea and Guadalcanal. The last is a huge forgotton land, sea and air battle whose importance is ignored in Australian history.

In http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2009/11/remembrance-day-songs-2009.html I do describe a couple of German songs of remembrance with the rider that they neither celebrate the Nazi darkness nor display swastikas. I wrote:

"Remembrance does not exclude former enemies. Here is an old German song Ich hatt' einen Kameraden http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpM8OPixds&feature=related often sung at German veterans' funerals. And then Lili Marlene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNRuNdVveeg&feature=related - which was loved by both sides in North Africa (World War II)."

@ TurnRightThenLeft

I don't know precisely what you are asking. However it is may be useful to look at the main current war in which Australians are dying. It is painted as an air and democracy spreading mission. If so it must be the most grandiose display of generosity by military means since Iraq or Vietnam.

The recipients of said military generosity respond in the way they are culturally inclined - shooting back, blowing up.

During the brief lulls between explosions the reality that we are doing it ONLY AS A US ALLY descends. War is rough politics by other means.

Dissembling "why" is something for today. Yesterday was just to remember.

Peter Coates