In doesn't matter that politicians are hypocritical; we all know about politicians.

What is important is that,whatever government is in power, their first duty is to keep illegal immigrants out of Australia. The previous government did make some headway, after leaving it too long; it's now up to the current government to come to its senses and either replicate the previous measures, or ensure that they provide the resources to turn all illegal boats back to their countries of origin.

All this waffle about 'humane' treatment of illegal arrivals, especially when we take in proven refugees in the way intended, is well past its use by date and serves only to highten the muddle-headed attitudes of Left wing crackpots.

No-one should be surprised if members of the Liberal Party dislike mandatory detention. No-one actually likes it...some of us just accept that it has to be done. There is just no nice way of doing some jobs.

Roll up ladies and gentlemen to the "how much rigt wing bile can Leigh get into one post" show. OLO regularly presents the extreme right wing idealogue nutbag "Leigh" posing as a reasonable Australian human being....watch him squirm around the issues and avoid facts, truth or even common sense in his breathtaking showmanship. Ladies and gentlemen, a rare opportunity to study the right wing zealot in its natural habitat...

Nice to see the tolerant non "rite" (right?) wing regulars posing as human beings.

Watch him squirm around the issues and avoid facts, truth or even common sense in his breathtaking showmanship? (fits lots of people)

Ladies and gentlemen, a "regular" opportunity to study the "left" wing zealot in its natural habitat...

There, fixed ..

It's an opinion site, and that's Leigh's opinion, if you don't like it, don't read it - but don't whinge about his right to an opinion.

Do you prefer anyone with a different opinion to be silenced, in the politically correct, left wing, liberal, tolerant manner of course .. now go look up "hypocrit", please.

Perhaps this is the solution to the problem. I'm sure Leigh would agree.

An Indian, an Arab, and a hot gorgeous blonde girl are in the same bar.

When the Indian finishes his beer, he throws his glass in the air,
pulls out his pistol, and shoots the glass to pieces.
He says, 'In India , our glasses are so cheap we don't need to drink with the same one twice.'

The Arab, obviously impressed by this, drinks his beer, throws it into the air,
pulls out his AK-47, and shoots the glass to pieces.
He says, 'In the Arab World, we have so much sand to make glasses that we don't need to
drink with the same one twice either.'

The blonde girl, cool as a cucumber, picks up her beer, Downs it in one gulp,
throws the glass into the air, whips out her 45, and shoots the Indian and the Arab.
Catching her glass, setting it on the bar, and calling for a refill, she says,

'In Australia we have so many illegal immigrants that we don't have to drink with the same ones twice.'

' God Bless Australia ‘

David

Leigh,
I don't know how many times I have to tell you. Onlineopinion is not a place to express your on line opinion. Where did you ever get that idea from. Please refrain from doing this and only express the accepted PC opinions as approved by E Hilter Sykes. This is not a free country Leigh. I do not expect to have to tell you this again.
Regards.

The policy is not very good, either way. There needs to be international policy and more work done in co-operation with the governments that have issues..eg Sri Lanka

I was reading France deported 21,000 Afghans and I can imagine many will try it again or try their luck here. So we get this very mobile group that could perhaps cause great expense on numerous attempt perhaps in many countries. Also read different countries have different refugee criteria which would promote country shopping. All this money spent of a few could probably assist millions if an international solution was found.

What is happening in Indonesia is very bad government. They should have removed them from the vessel or sent them to Christmas Island. Then dealt with the consequence of their decision. This is a joke at the moment, a whole nation being held to ransom by a few. Will only increase antagonism in the community and send votes back to any Pauline Hanson type and this time it may stick.

Andrew Bartlett, you are a flawed man! You think that if you repeat lies often enough they become the truth.
We know the children were thrown overboard because the only eyewitnesses said they saw them thrown overboard!
Cornelia Rau is a German citizen and not an Australian citizen She lived in Australia using a false passport and a false name. The German government failed to identify her, as did the Australian government due to her successful lies. She was never found to be ill or psychotic. She was taken into custody by the Queensland State Govt. (lead by a Labor govt,) and the Qld. Dept. of Health found she was not bipolar or psychotic. She strenuously denied that she was psychotic. Yet you and your ALP mates attacked Amanda Vanstone because she failed as the Federal Minister of Immigration to take care of a woman held by a Labor State Govt.!
You and your mates, Sen. Faulkner and Sen. Cooke successfully turned these incidences into an attack on the Howard Govt by lying.
You used your terrified infant son in front of cameras to defend your drunken escapade when you stole wine from the Libs Christmas Party, and now you perpetuate your lies. You are a sad man, but even sadder, you are a paradigm of the left-wing politician.
Geoffrey Kelley

Andrew

Why do you try to rationalise Rudd's disgraceful performances in Indonesia.

It is obvious to us all he is spining out of control, has no consistant policy on border protection, is dealing with each boat crisis on an ad hoc basis, hasn't the guts to make a fit and proper decision on those unfortunates held in Indonesia and is leaving Australia's borders completely unprotected.

His current Indonesian solution is worse than anything Howard ever did.

Why are you his chief apologist? Why aren't you shrieking at him and his policy failure the way you shriek at John Howard and his policies, which worked rather more humanely than anything Rudd is currently espousing and you are endorsing/defending.

Why don't you ask the asylum seekers why they want Australian assessment rather than UN assessment in Indonesia.

Andrew your thought processes are at best muddled when you think you can dish up the tripe you have on this issue and expect to be taken seriously.

This latest post is the lowest point of your public utterances.

That's quite a feat Geoffrey - I've rarelt seen such a wide variety of nonsense packed into such a short comment. Perhaps you could try commenting on the issue instead of trying to smear people with a tirade of nonsense, but presumably you can't think of any factual arguments against what I have said, so you attack the person instead. Very admirable.

There were no "eyewitnesses" to children being thrown overboard because it never happened, you hateful idiot. The captain of the ship, HMAS Adelaide said on oath it never happened. Even the Liberals eventually admitted that the allegation of children being thrown overboard was false.

Cornelia Rau was and is an Australian permanent resident - the fact that she is also a German citizen is irrelevant to the fact that she was and is entitled to live in Australia. Your suggestion that she had no mental illness is false - and seeing this fact has been comprehensively established, you must know it is false, making you a knowing liar. Even the Liberal government admitted they stuffed up big time. They would hardly have forked out compensation money otherwise.

I am not in the ALP and have never been in the ALP, and have no Labor mates, and have been equally critical of Labor when I believe it is merited. I also don't have a son. I am also no longer a politician.

Your feeble efforts at spreading hate are completely outweighed by the volumes of publicly available evidence which show your lies for the nonsense they are.

I'm sorry Keith - I presume you haven't read my article. Either that or you feel duty bound to shriek at anything I write, with no regard to the actual content. I am not being an apologist for Rudd about anything. I am commenting on the current inconsistent political rhetoric being deployed by both sides.

As for your own views, you presumably are unaware that Australia has been funding the Indonesians + UNHCR + IOM to deal with asylum seekers in that country since well back into the Howard era, so anything you think is inhumane about what is happening now also happened under Howard. The 'Indonesian solution', if that's what people want to call this particular aspect of bodrder protection (not a very accurate name in my view) was established under Howard. The Australian funded detention centre which is finally getting some very overdue attention in the last week or so didn't just pop overnight. Nor did the others scattered trhoughout the region. So "why aren't you shrieking at Howard and his policy failure the way you shriek at Kevin Rudd and his policies?"

And any suggestion that the other policies of Howard's - detention behind razor wire for years on end, refusal to enable proper mental health treatment, pressuring people to return to danger, refusing to enable genunie refugees to settle or see their families - were "more humane" is not only wrong, but disgracefully and dangerously so. Still, you've rarely seemed to have much interest in either facts or humaneness so I suppose you're just staying true to type.

Andrew,
As I understand it there were no eyewitnesses to you stealing that wine. So I guess it never happened.

I agree with Andrew.

It is not about labor or liberal.
BOTH have/have had their share of primadonnas.

The crux of the problem is we should NOT be party to the harebrained refugee convention in the first place. It only serves as a magnet, for every Tom, Dick and Ali to kick down our door and cry poor. And an opportunity, for every Andrew (Bartlett), Petro (Georgiou) & Paul (Howe) to pirouette on a --more humane than thou --pedestal.

I would think that grass-root level supporters on both labor and liberal, as apposed to those who aspire to international stardom, have a common desire to keep strong border controls in place.

Andrew, I am calling you a liar. I know the children were thrown overboard because I have met the eyewitnesses, senior sailors who were there. And they told me the children were thrown overboard. Also I have the evidence of the four pages of signals sent by the HMAS Adelaide over a forty-eight hour period in which the eyewitnesses say they had to prevent parents from dropping their children into the RHIB alongside.

See the four pages starting with :

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/2002/overboard/cable1.htm

I think that you will find the captain of the HMAS Adelaide could not prove that the children were thrown overboard because the film of the incident did not show the kids going over the side. I believe the film used was infra-red film and when processed it was found that the camera was on the starboard of the SIEV IV and the RHIB was on the port side. The Senate committee forced the HMAS Adelaide captain to admit he did not have the photos that Reith said would prove the assertion. Howard always claimed that they were, “After all, in the water…….” We have the film showing brave Australian sailors in the water rescuing the children. How do you explain that footage? Stop playing with words!

Geoffrey Kelley

the sad part about Labour's gross hypocrisy and the lefts (we are compassionate and no one else is) is the number of grossly abused people waiting to come to Australia legally. From the outcasts in India to the Tamils in Sri Lanka or the white and coloured in South Africa. Many have waited and suffered for years. Labour's hypocrisy has led to more boats, more deaths, more danger and more manipulation from illegals. They have created a huge mess with their half baked pseudo compassion and now are the laughing stock of nations with rational policies. The atrocious left media have been extremely slow to pick up on their hero's hypocrisy. At least Howard was decisive whether you liked him or not.

Andrew Bartlett, you see, you still play with words. Cornelia Rau was not an Australian citizen. She was a permanent resident living here under a false name, false identity and a false passport. Why was she never charged with these offences? Why was a Quantas steward using a false name and passport and identity to cross our borders? She was and is German citizen, not an Australian citizen at the time. Why don’t you attack the German Govt for failing to identify her. Their excuse was that she was using a false identity and a forged passport.

She was found not to be psychotic by the Qld state health dept. When was she found psychotic? Please quote your evidence.

I take your word that you have no friends in the ALP, but your leader did defect to the party of her adulterous lover, the ALP, so some Democrats have friends in the ALP.

So, I made a mistake about your son, Was it your daughter that you appeared with outside your home after your drunken pilfering? I will change my words to “your infant child”. Nevertheless, you were widely condemned for using your infant child the next day when confronted by the media.

I reject the notion that I am spreading hate. I only want the truth to be known, If you tell a lie often enough it is eventually believed.

Geoffrey, it is sometimes the case, as you say, that "If you tell a lie often enough it is eventually believed." However, I honestly don't think it matters how often you keep repeating your assertions - the evidence to show you're wrong is just too overwhelming and widely available.

It is a reasonable assumption that someone who keeps repeating things that are completely wrong, and those falsehoods seek to portray someone in an extremely negative light, is someone who is trying to spread hate. But it is true that is just assumption of mine, albeit a reasonable one on the evidence. Perhaps you just have difficulty with basic comprehension.

As I said, the fact that Cornelia Rau was a German citizen is irrelevant - unless you think all Germans in Australia should be locked up. She was a lawful resident of Australia. It is also on the public record that she had been diagnosed with schizophrenia.

Perhaps you should read the Palmer Report
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/pdf/palmer-report.pdf

or if that's too long, try this
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/My-sister-lost-her-mind-Australia-lost-its-heart/2005/02/06/1107625064599.html
or this http://bit.ly/3Y0Rck

As for the children overboard fibs, the cables you linked to were presented, along with hundreds more pages of evidence, to the Senate Inquiry. The cables do not say any child was thrown overboard. Given how detailed they are, including mentioning adults diving into the water, it is unthinkable that any sailor who saw a child being thrown wouldn't have reported it.

As for the footage of sailors rescuing children from the water - used by Peter Reith to further perpetuate the lie - the children were in the water because the boat sank! A sinking boat tends to leave its occupants in the water.

I don't need to "play with words" Geoffrey - I'm just repeating well established facts. When I make a mistake, I acknowledge it and accept responsibility for it. I don't keep repeating it.

Andrew,

The way you cherry picked your through the question time, giving a pro labor party line commentaries shows the article as political punt rather than a serious opinion.

The reason Rudd is in trouble is that the relaxation of the laws dealing with the boat people lead to a massive >10x increase in boats. The push factor excuse Rudd uses is particularly weak considering that nearly all the boat people have been in Indonesia for several years.

Turnbull rightly accuses him of hypocrisy in arranging for their detention in Indonesia where their conditions are likely to be substantially worse than on Nauru or Xmas Island.

The Pacific solution was sufficient deterrent to smugglers that the boat people were almost a non issue.

This crisis is entirely self inflicted by Labor, and having painted a bulls eye on their back the opposition is gleefully firing shaft after shaft into it.

Unless Labor does something to change things, the beating will continue.

I agree with Geoffrey Kelley.

Though I think Geoffrey should refrain from any reference to Andrew’s personal life/family.
It’s not OLO etiquette, and it will draw sympathy where it may be undeserved .

The children overboard kafuffle was a well planned & well executed grab for sympathy by the pro-refugee lobby.
It has been established that some of the illegals :
-- sew their lips together.
--climb to the roof of compounds and threaten to jump off.
--sabotage ships on the high seas
--burn their papers
--intimidate civilian (rescue) crew into redirecting ships towards Australia
--while in detention payoff old ethnic and religious debts –something they’re supposedly running from.
But to suggest that some might have thrown their children overboard is hurtful and besmirches their reputations(!)
[ Al Capone was probably quite offended too when they called him a tax cheat]
Spare me the faux indignation pleeeeease! .

Unfortunately our border personnel are all too often constrained in what they can say or do.
And any commissions of investigation need to have all the I’s dotted and all the T’s crossed before they can make a call.
Whereas the refugees and their advocates can propagate any old half truth or full blown lie ---and do, with great energy & skill.

It seems revealing of their "dog whistle orders" *Andrew* when so far this thread is saturated with Blues attempting to derail and repress your views from getting up for consideration.

But then after seeing another weak performance by TurnBull on Meet the Press this morning it is perhaps not surprising that the "foot soldiers" are a little more "frothing at the mouth" than usual.

Plus of course pm Wudd has poached another Elder in the form of Costello and plugged him back into the pulse, and thus his insights for the party room will be limited.

HaHaHa

Oh! And Barnaby is in revolt, and other back benchers are still threatening to cross the floor.

ROFL

Fitting justice for those who sold their Souls to the abusive of children policies of the howard era. "Evil" for want of a better term has a way of undoing itself in the long term.

A few more years in the wilderness yet I suspect is the appropriate prescription for the tattered remnants of the liberal party.

..

Still, I think "we" need to scrub up the liberal's for Forests a bit. A shame to waste the entire talent pool.

;-)

Andrew, the only evidence I am interested in is the evidence given by the crew of the HMAS Adelaide. I don’t have a problem with basic comprehension. I can read a RAN signal. Eyewitness evidence is good enough for me. I am not trying to spread hate, only facts.

You said, “As I said, the fact that Cornelia Rau was a German citizen is irrelevant - unless you think all Germans in Australia should be locked up.” No, I don’t think all Germans in Australia should be locked up. That is a pathetic accusation. I do think that any foreign national who cannot prove their identity and offers two false identities and cannot satisfy the German Govt. of their identity warrants investigation. The Palmer report adequately describes the confusing process and suggests some protocols that might improve the system.

Cornelia Rau was subjected to six days of psychiatric assessment by the Qld state govt. and found not to be psychotic. You and your ALP mates somehow used her to attack the Federal Minister of Immigration over her departments handling of the case. That is what I find contemptible in your argument. Her own family failed to report her as a missing person for five months.

As for the “children overboard”, the boat sank because it was sabotaged and scuttled, not because it was unseaworthy. Reith did not perpetuate a lie. That is a filthy assertion made by his political enemies. Please read the signals, especially the part describing SUNCS attempting to throw children overboard but prevented by the boarding party.

Geoffrey Kelley

I agree with geoffrey,
I have just read much of the report into the children overboard investigation. I think in summary it found technically and legally there was NO EVIDENCE to support that Children were THROWN overboard. But that is about all they found. Anyone that just plainly accepts this as being the whole truth is being gravely mislead. I could equate it to someone being accused of shooting someone in the left leg and being found not guilty because the real truth was that he shot him in the right leg.
Reading the report you will find that many on the SIEV did throw themselves overboard to hinder the efforts of the Australian navy. They had to be rescued by brave navy crew. Some navy crew describe seeing one person holding a child and threatening to throw them overboard. The boat and its engine was sabotaged in an attempt to make the navy take them on board. Much of this was happening in the dark with few navy personnel trying to control around 200 angry people. One person describes one of the people who was overboard in the water as around 15 years of age. So it seems at the end of the day that these people were doing their utmost to destroy the ship and throw themselves overboard in the dark to disrupt the efforts of the navy, yet because in all this chaos the navy crew could not ABSOLUTELY PROVE that a CHILD had definitely been THROWN overboard then the initial statement was found to be not supported. So the way I see it is that although the statement could not be proved ( in the middle of the ocean at night in chaos with 200 people) it certainly would seem highly likely and would be in line with the actions of the people at the time.

Andrew,

I read your article. Focusing on criticising past liberal government and current liberal opposition shows it accepts Rudd's solution.

Your bias/support show when you say:

'...(I think badly named) "Indonesia Solution"'

'The Liberals' divisions are obvious,' then ' they (Labor)just have the good sense and discipline to stay mostly quiet about them.'

'The position - contentious but arguable - that the Howard era policies stopped the boats ...' then '...the other widely recognised (and totally undeniable) consequences of those policies, which were kids behind razor wire, the children overboard fiction, Cornelia Rau, etc.'

'...ironic it may seem that the Liberals are expressing such concern for the welfare of people seeking refuge'

and tellingly,

'there are key differences between the Pacific Solution and the so-called "Indonesia Solution".'

Overall your article isn't balanced with criticism directed at Rudd's opportunistic use of the Indonesians. Nor of the disgraceful way they've treated refugees. Though you do sort of refer and criticise those aspects in passing with little reference to Kevvy.

This is laughable:

'... to convince countries such as Indonesia and others in our region that a cooperative approach based on a humane and rational attitude to asylum seekers in the region is in all our interests'

Care to relate the current position and detail past actions of India, Burma, Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore.

Do research. You'll see your suggestion, mirrors Rudd's grandiose pronouncements. In the Australian vernacular, it's akin to urinating into the wind.

I don't need to shreik ... I think things through, answer questions, state my positions and offer solutions. I'm supportive of no particuler political cant or line.

I knew Indonesia was only part of John Howards Pacific Solution. It's currently Kevvy's only solution. You miss that point with the excusing of Kevvy and blaming the liberals.

I understand, unlike you as shown through your unthinking verbosity, the Government of the day warrants greater scruitiny than policies of previous governments and current oppositions.

It's no bloody wonder you are no longer a politician

A group on Christmas Island are protesting now because they actually wanted to go to New Zealand. Maybe a good idea.

Seems the only country left on earth that is nice. All other nations on earth are hell according to those that live in comfort, nowhere good enough for anybody as they would not stand it for a day so stands to reason no-one else should. Planet Earth just one big human rights abuse. No reason to worry about climate change, we all deserve to die.

I do wonder how long they stay nice for but lets give it a go.

New Zealand Solution.

I'll say this for you guys, your determination to ignore widely documented fact is very impressive. You're like ghosts of slain warriors on some ancient battle-field, doomed to keep fighting the war you lost long ago. But I'm not really interested in endlessly churning back over facts which have long been established, I'm interested in examining and debating realistic and workable approaches
to the issues of today.

I'm glad you read some of the Children Overboard report Ozzie - pity you didn't comprehend it. I was on the Committee which sat through the evidence, read all the documents and compiled the report. I'll give you a tip about evidence - when there is no evidence to back up an allegation, but lots of explicit public evidence from people saying something didn't happen, then a rational person deduces it didn't happen.

It's not like "shooting someone in the left leg and being found not guilty because the real truth was that he shot him in the right leg." It's like alleging someone was shot in the right leg, but the facts showing the person wasn't shot at all, and pictures of a leg with a shotgun wound were of a different person at a different time in a different context. I hope you're never on a jury.

For anyone interested in looking at the full facts from the Children Overboard inquiry, you can find the final report, the submissions and transcripts of the 15 days of public hearings at this link:
http://aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/maritime_incident_ctte/index.htm

Geoffrey has now dropped back to saying Cornelia Rau "warranted investigation". But she wasn't 'investigated', she was jailed without charge in Qld womens prison and then Baxter detention centre where she was locked in solitary confinement. Even Minister Vanstone accepted the findings of the Palmer Report and stated that her department had major cultural deficiencies, but you'll insist nothing was done wrong and Cornelia Rau had no mental illness - presumably you think she got herself locked up for six months as part of a Labor plot to discredit Vanstone.

Andrew,
Many people were throwing themselves into the water that night in the dark from what I read in the report. The navy does not have time to photograph and document each one including there ages. That's usually what happens during a chaotic rescue situation at sea in the night. Since you were on the committee can you tell me exactly how many people went into the water that night and there ages? I suspect not. I suspect no one will ever know. Thus although no proof exists that no child went into the water, no proof exists that they definitely did not either. My point is that although we cannot definitely prove it happened it is in line with the actions of many of these groups.
Just like with these new 78 Sri Lankans, they have threatened various actions unless they get there way. Those on the Tampa also made threats to the crew unless they turned around and headed to Australia. Earlier this year there was the boat that in the dark shortly after being intercepted by Australians suddenly burst into flames. Just a conicidence I guess.
This all paints a picture of people prepared to intimidate and threaten Australians unless they get there way. Your however that much of these cannot be ABSOLUTELY proved.
Andrew, since you were on the committee let me ask you this question. If I made the accusation that "Ten people threw themselves into the sea that night" is my accusation true or false? I suspect you will know the answer straight away since you were on the committee. Thanks for answering this question.

Thanks for reprinting parts of my article Keith. Now how about pointing to something I've said which is wrong? You think its "laughable" to pursue a cooperative approach with Indonesia, just before you acknowledge that Howard did the same!

I've been doing research on this for years - I've regularly written about the atrocious records of Malaysia, Burma, Thailand and the dangers of cooperating with countries in our region without adequate scrutiny and protection of rights. Here's some examples from this year - well before these issues reappeared as a political controversy:

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/thestump/2009/01/28/why-it-matters-how-australia-treats-asylum-seekers/ http://blogs.crikey.com.au/thestump/2009/04/24/why-dont-all-asylum-seekers-just-stay-in-malaysia/ http://blogs.crikey.com.au/thestump/2009/07/06/599/ http://blogs.crikey.com.au/thestump/2009/08/21/treatment-of-asylum-seekers-in-thailand/ http://blogs.crikey.com.au/thestump/2009/10/19/asylum-seeker-experiences-elsewhere/

One benefit of Kevin Rudd's foolish attempt to make a big deal out of getting a boat stopped by Indonesia is that it has finally put a big spotlight on the conditions and circumstances which many asylum seekers and refugees have been experiencing in Indonesia for years.

Horus, I’m not sure what your point is in mentioning that some refugees sewed their lips together, climbed on roofs, tried to prevent their boats being turned around, etc. I’ve met many of them, including people with stiches in their lips. I’ve been to camps on Nauru, Christmas Island, Indonesia, outback Australia. If you lock up and brutalise innocent people long enough they get desperate – any psychology student will tell you that for free.

Alleging the children overboard issue was orchestrated by "the pro-refugee lobby" is absurd. The false allegation was raised and repeated by a number of senior government Ministers, including photos published by Peter Reith falsely saying it was "proof". It wasn’t refugee advocates lying about it.

Apparently some of you would rather believe government Ministers than Navy and Defence personnel, a number of who explicitly said children weren’t thrown overboard. If you can’t accept something that has been so comprehensively and unequivocally verified, then there’s really not much point engaging in debate.

And sorry to disappoint you again Geoffrey, but HMAS Adelaide's Captain said in evidence the refugee boat was unseaworthy. It broke up and sank after being under tow and under the control of Navy personnel for two days.

It is interesting to me that we hear no complaints about refugees if they have money.

And that I suspect is the heart of the issue. That is to say, if they have no money and are likely to end up at least initially on the Social Security system, then they are unwanted by default.

It's like this in Australia:
1. No money - Unlikely to get legal justice
2. No money - Unlikely to get dentistry
3. No money - Unlikely to get a house
4. No money = Unlikely to get on time appropriate medical treatment.
5. Insufficient money - No family/spousal entry to Oz EVEN if you one member is an Australian.
6. etc ..

So, because of the bloated, over inflated self opinions and grasping greed of the top end of town and a pitifully weak political establishment that won't insist on full employment, all those who are unable to get work because there isn't any, miss out.

New arrivals to Oz do not get access to the S.S. system for 2 full years. Boat people, the poorest of the refugees, would thus arrive and have less than nothing. Socially of course, this causes untold problems and is not wanted by anyone in the community thus the boat people themselves, are not wanted. Not because they are not real refugees/real traumatized people, but simply because they have no money.

To those to whom it applies, just come clean and advocate for withdrawal from the convention.

"Reith did not perpetuate a lie?"

Are we talking about the "didn't know anything about Patrick's plans" Reith or was it the "well be better not see the video then" Reith?

Nope? Must have been a completely different Reith from an alternative reality.

Denial is a powerful thing and tends toward delusion.

There's nothing like asylum seekers to bring out the very worst in some Aussies, is there? Having been away for the weekend and now reading through this thread, I'm by turns appalled and disgusted at the ignorant and hateful rants of the refugee-bashers, and full of admiration at Andrew Bartlett's calm and measured responses to the vile invective being chucked at him. While I have disagreed with Andrew's position on various issues over the years (notably his approval of high immigration) I think he's spot-on with respect to asylum seekers and other refugees.

Full marks also to the few humane commenters who've tried to calm down the baying of the dogs who've come running to the whistle so 'liberally' sounded by the rabble that passes for a Federal Opposition. I've decided that I'm no longer going to bother with their at best disingenuous arguments on this issue, having explained patiently and in some detail my views on the various other discussions on asylum seekers and refugees at OLO in recent months. Taking the ignorant haters seriously only encourages them, in my view, so henceforth I'm going to treat them with the disdain they deserve.

It's a damned shame that Andrew Bartlett is no longer in the Senate - and I say this as a member of the political party with whom his was in most direct competition.

i have never ever suggested that anyone is not entitled to express an opinion. Leigh spits the usual disgusting jingoist right ring bile, and then the usual flag wavers start singing the first verse, always, conveniently forgetting the second "For those who've come across the seas We've boundless plains to share...." .

well done andrew, and what CJ said.

Andrew Bartlett - thanks for taking the time to reply here. Your calm responses and the citations in them are a breath of fresh air to what normally passes for debate on OLO.

I can only agree with CJ Morgan when he said: "It's a damned shame that Andrew Bartlett is no longer in the Senate".

2nd Nov 2009

Andrew, you fail to comprehend that I firmly believe your senate inquiry was a cynical and flawed political stunt. Despite your kangaroo court Admiral Chris Barrie maintained until well after the Christmas that the children were thrown overboard, and stated, “I am the Navy!” I repeat my original assertion that you play with words! You know from the evidence presented that the SUNCs tried to throw their children overboard but were prevented by sailors of the Boarding Party.

As for Cornelia Rau, you accuse me of adopting a fallback position. No, you are playing with words again you naughty boy! And she was investigated.

The Qld. Govt. and the German Govt. investigated Cornelia Rau, but it is fair to say that the investigation failed to identify her as an Australian resident. The facts are as follows: a woman failed to give her true identity to the police. She spoke fluent German and spoke English with a German accent. She claimed to be a German citizen (and was in fact a German citizen) but offered up four false identities and a false passport. She wanted to be sent home to Germany. The German Govt would not accept her, as they had no record of her false identities, so she stayed in detention in a Qld State institution under a Beattie Labor Govt. She was sent to a Qld. State health facility for psychological assessment, and investigated but found not to be psychotic. Andrew have I presented the facts of the investigation fairly or not? You must accept that she was investigated! Her family failed to notify the NSW police that she was missing for five months, and then the NSW police (another Labor State Govt.) failed to promulgate her status to other Australian police forces.

Out of all this lying and bungling you left-wing politicians attacked Sen. Amanda Vanstone for failing as the Immigration Minister. That shows the sort of stupidity and gall that only a left-wing politician would dare to display.

Geoffrey Kelley

geoffreykelley writes
'Out of all this lying and bungling you left-wing politicians attacked Sen. Amanda Vanstone for failing as the Immigration Minister. That shows the sort of stupidity and gall that only a left-wing politician would dare to display.'

and to make it worse they truely believe that they are the compassionate ones. They could not get away with it if we had a press willing to report facts rather than their dogmas. No wonder the Democrats were such great backers of the national broadcasters.

Andrew,
Re…“You're like ghosts of slain warriors on some ancient battle-field, doomed to keep fighting the war you lost long ago….”
I’d liken us rather to the ghost of Hamlet’s father, who came back to seek redress for the poison that was poured into his ears.

Re…“Horus, I’m not sure what your point is in mentioning … sewed their lips together etc…I’ve been to camps on Nauru, Christmas etc”
Yeah, you certainly made the most of your politicians travel allowance, I’ll give you that— though, perhaps greater utility (& less CO2) might have been achieved by donating the travel costs to the aslylum seekers upkeep?

There are two reasons for mentioning the sown lips etc.
i)If such behaviour is a genuinely symptomatic of trauma –one would think surely that we would find hundreds, perhaps thousands, of such lip-sown-shut-persons in African camps , since by all accounts conditions there are many times worse than anywhere in OZ--Yet we don’t. What we see is the sown-lips-capper is reserved for times when there is fawning media & advocates hanging about. Which using the principles I learnt in psychology 101, & beyond, leads me to think it has less to do with them being “brutalise” and more to do with them seeking to manipulate –and manipulating some of our namby-pamby representatives is very easy indeed.

ii) There’s a peculiar human foible that views a charge as more credible , if it can be shown the chargee has a track record of similar behaviour in the past.For example, if someone has threatened to jump from rooves or flag poles , its not too much of a leap to envisage they might jump overboard and take their children with them—if it could serve their ends. (bleeding hearts like yourself never like to apply that standard to your protected -- though you, funnily enough, are all too eager to apply it to everyone else! ).

Re …”Alleging the children overboard issue was orchestrated by ‘the pro-refugee lobby’ is absurd”
The refugee advocates milked it for all it was worth—and more than it was worth--you included.

the Left will never wake to what it's like to be capable of doing the Right thing.

Andrew,

I didn't say you said anything wrong! I said you had bias in your article and it favoured Rudds position by emphasis and blame on the former Liberal government and the current Liberal opposition.

Here is something else I masked I said.

'Care to relate the current position and detail past actions of India, Burma, Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore.'

Where did I ask you to relate current conditions in Indonesia?

But overall all your articles point out is that Australia has always had a more humane treatment regime of asylum seekers. And that would be the drawing factor, note not push factor, that ensures asylum seekers target to Australia rather than other countries in our region. And that totally contradicts Rudd's inconsistant approaches and re-inforces the effectiveness of Howards solution ?

Do you seriously think Rudd's government can bring enough presure to bear on these regimes to change their approach. They have been made to look silly in Indonesia by a provincial governor.

Now what about India and Singapore?

Try googling Immigration humanitarian India. Guess where you finish up?

DIMIA Australia.

You seem to have not read my post, misunderstood my point, set up a straw man argument or answered like a prospective politician seeking labor pre-selection.

keith, geoffrey, horus: perhaps your obsession with trying to put this into some Labor vs Liberal combat explains your inability to actually look at the issue on its own merits. But as someone who's never been in either party, I'm not in the least interested. I'm interested in looking at the pros and cons of different approaches & assessing what's most likely to work best over time.

Keith says I didn't saying anything that was wrong, but it's still biased. So to be unbiased, I'm supposed to write stuff that is false like you guys?

Horus thinks it was wrong for me to go inspect the conditions which refugees were being kept in on Nauru for up to five years at the expense of Australian taxpayers. If you're keen on value for money, you should appreciate someone going there to see how it was spent & try to stop further spending by getting the refugees out of there - as eventually happened. Its far cheaper for the public to get refugees out of detention, than it is to keep paying their "upkeep". If you folks had had your way, we'd still be paying millions for their detention - much more than the cost of a few plane trips.

& apparently the 'children overboard' lie was "milked by refugee advocates" for "more than it was worth"? I could has sworn it was very heavily "milked" by Mr Howard & some senior Ministers right before an election. But you seem to think "milking an issue" involves holding politicians to account when they wrongly smear people and mislead the public.

Rudd "has been made to look silly by a provincial Indonesian governor" because he was stupid enough to grandstand & turn a rescue at sea into an example of him being "tough". The same with the other boat, which could have been stopped as so many others have been, without needing the "I told the Indonesian President to stop it" grandstanding. Rudd turned them into political issues because he thought he'd score points & its blown up in his face.

I'm sorry you have so little faith in Australia & our governments Keith. I actually think we do have the capacity to improve the way asylum seekers are handled in Indonesia, especially now there is more scrutiny. The Howard government (in conjunction with the UNHCR) made some advances in this area & the pressure is now on the current government to go much further.

It’ll take many years, but the only realistic long-term solution to people seeking asylum in our region is through a cooperative regional approach.

The other big (& much harder) task is to reduce the amount of persecution perpetrated by countries in our region - Burma being by far the worst, along with Sri Lanka at present, but there’s also many dangers for asylum seekers in Malaysia & Thailand.

Finally, I’m astonished anyone would need convincing of the travesties inflicted on Cornelia Rau at both Qld & federal government level, but here's excerpts from the Palmer Report. (Mick Palmer served for 35 in the NT & Federal Police – unlikely to be part of some ‘left wing’ conspiracy to discredit the Coalition, especially as they appointed him)

“There is a serious cultural problem within DIMIA’s immigration compliance and detention areas: urgent reform is necessary.”

“Ms Rau was detained in Brisbane Women’s prison for six months…... because of a failure in DIMIA processes. She was not a prisoner, had done nothing wrong & was put there for administrative convenience.”

Her “mental health assessment at the PA Hospital Brisbane was inadequate” - “the mental health care delivered while she was at Baxter was inadequate”

“there are serious problems with the handling of immigration detention cases – they stem from deep seated cultural & attitudinal problems within DIMIA & a failure of executive leadership."

Minister Vanstone stated the case involved “pre-existing mental health conditions”

Finally, Liberal frontbencher George Brandis in the Senate – 10/8/2005:
“The core fact of this case is that in the administrative processes of the department of immigration two very grave errors were made, which had terrible consequences for two particular people: Ms Rau and Ms Solon.

AndrewBartlett: "keith, geoffrey, horus: perhaps your obsession with trying to put this into some Labor vs Liberal combat explains your inability to actually look at the issue on its own merits."

I think it is a tribal thing. They say the first thing that pops into their head that proves their tribal credentials. The facts, balanced reasoning and good outcomes are all sacrificed on the alter of tribal politics. Discussing something with them is like banging your head into a brick wall. It seems like the same brick wall you hit in a religious discussion as the tone of the debate is no different. I have largely given it up as a waste of time.

You efforts here show why it isn't always a waste of time. It has been singularly the most informative and persuasive discussions I have seen on the topic. Thank you again.

I guess I should also thank keith, geoffrey, horus for providing the wonderfully intransigent brick wall you bounced off.

Andrew,
Re---“your obsession with trying to put this into some Labor vs Liberal combat”
This issue is too important to be masked by traditional lib/lab/class rivalries.

Re ---“Its far cheaper for the public to get refugees out of detention”
If (short-term) -cheapness- was the determiner . Then why not also extend it to drug enforcement;
no border checks, no prosecutions – big savings in money and personnel!

Re---“But you seem to think ‘milking an issue’ involves holding politicians to account when they wrongly smear people.”
It is only a smear if it was i) false, & ii) there was a reputation to smear.
On balance of probabilities the charge is credible -- except technically, according to you, no one can testify they saw A throw B into the sea,
though B was found in the sea. For persons who’ve systematically lied, cheated, bribed and sabotaged, what reputation is there left to be smeared!
Refugee advocates showed their true colours by preferring to accept any half baked charge against OZ border personnel, just so long as it exonerated the asylum seekers – and not for the first or last time .

Re ---“ the only realistic long-term solution to people seeking asylum in our region is through a cooperative regional approach”
Balderdash! you clearly do NOT understand the nature of the problem.
There are millions trying to scheme , bribe & elbow their way into practically every affluent country.
It’s little to do with fear of persecution but lots to do with economic aspiration.
No amount of “ regional cooperation” to moderate persecution will eliminate refugeeism – persecution is just the pretext!
There are thousands of groups, even in the most liberal of states, who could claim a well founded fear of persecution.
And more pretexts’ are being manufactured weekly – goers for the future will be “climate refugees” & spouses escaping abusive partners.
The driver is opportunists seeking to trade-up to a better life style –and niche politicians seeking to profit politically from it.
The best move for OZ would be to scrap membership of the refugee convention altogether.

On old mate of mine used to reckon we're all boat people.
But then he (a Birpai) used to say the Bunya were illegal immigrants.
"They've only been here 40,000 years. My people been here 60,000".
Bloody immigrants.

Horus – I know you are uninterested in facts or truth, so I’ll just add a few more pieces of evidence to further demonstrate the extent of your wilful dishonesty. There is no point in engaging with you further.

“This issue is too important to be masked by traditional lib/lab/class rivalries”

And that would be why you’ve been soooo dispassionate, unbiased and accurate in your comments?!

“If (short-term) -cheapness- was the determiner . Then why not also extend it to drug enforcement;
no border checks, no prosecutions – big savings in money and personnel!”

Um… because refugees are not criminals. There were no prosecutions, just imprisonment. You’re the one who complained about me using up taxpayer dollars – I simply pointed out it saved money overall. Refugees are no danger to society. Locking them up simply harms them, cost us money and makes it harder for them to integrate into our society when they are released – at even further cost to us.

“On balance of probabilities the charge is credible -- except technically, according to you, no one can testify they saw A throw B into the sea, though B was found in the sea.

The allegation that children were thrown overboard is false. It is not “technically, according to me” – it is factually according to the most senior officers in Defence. If no can say they saw B thrown into the sea, and B was never seen in the sea, then it is beyond reasonable doubt that it never happened. I appreciate you don’t fall into the categorical of reasonable, but most readers and voters do.

As has repeatedly been said, B (as in children) were found in the sea because their boat sank. They were not in the sea the day before when the Navy first boarded the vessel and the alleged children overboard incident was wrongly said to have occurred. You know this, yet you repeat the falsehood.

In your desperation to smear refugees and advocates of human rights and basic decent, you are in fact calling a range of high ranking defence personnel liars.

A few statements made by Defence officers, on oath:

Admiral Barrie: “I told him (Minister Reith) that I had been advised that the photographs he had put out did not describe the events as he portrayed on the 7.30 Report."

Brigadier Silverstone, regarding a discussion with Minister Reith:
"I used words to the effect of ‘Well, Minister, the video does not show things clearly and does not show children overboard. We also have concerns that no children were thrown in the water at all and we have made an investigation of that’. …. He then said, ‘Well, we had better not see the video then,’ and left my office."

Air Marshal Houston – then acting and now current Chief of Defence – provided the following advice to the Minister:
“fundamentally there was nothing to suggest that women and children had been thrown into the water.”

Air Marshal Houston stated that: “If a child had been in the water, it would have been reported in the text of the message”. He said he based that assessment, not only on his many years’ experience of military messaging in joint operations, but also on the fact that although the signal made a number of specific references to children on board SIEV 4, there were no references to children overboard.

Photographs released to the media on 10 October as evidence of children thrown overboard on 7 October were actually pictures taken the following day, 8 October, while SIEV 4 was sinking.

Personally, I have enormous admiration for the Navy personnel who had to do a very difficult and distasteful job & performed amazingly to rescue every person from the sinking boat who ended up in the water, including many children. They deserved commendation, not to be used as cheap political pawns by a government who knew well in advance of the election that they had misled the Australian people in a desperate effort to smear refugees. Though not as desparate as Horus & co, going through their Groundhog Day time after time still kidding themselves that no one has found out the truth.

Andrew

No I don't think you should write stuff that is false but you should not assume your truth is the only truth and anyone who cannot agree with you is wrong and deserving of a lacvk of respect.
Yopu should also stop the misquoting and strawman arguments for a moment.
And please stop trying to put labels on me and address my questions and concerns.

Point to where you have detailled your preferences of effective action to protect our borders from overwhelming asylum seekers. Measures that will work.

Detail your preference for the actual numbers of humanitarian refugees and the mix of our annual immigration intake and at what point you'd implement severe restrictions to stop those over and above your number of preference.

Tell me how you will make Indonesia, India, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand sign up to any uniform International Treaty on the treatment refugees.
Tell me how you will force them to allow unfettered access by the UN to assess refugees.
I'm astonished you think lecturing, with a holier than thou attitude, the Thais, Malaysian, Singaporeans and Indonesians will achieve anything. They'll simply say Australia is handing the problem ok and doesn't seem to need their assistance.

And what about India? You've skipped them or do you think their attitude ok?

You are right though I have no faith in the Rudd Government to improve the treatment of Asylum seekers anywhere ... especially since they cannot protect our borders. Have delivered asylum seekers into the hands of the Indonesians. Who now it seems are accepting our money for taking asylum seekers who were rescued at sea and refusing to take their international responsibilities for those people seriously. It is astonishing the Rudd Government was unaware the Indonesian President had no authority to direct the regional Indonesian Governors to do anything.
After this disgraceful episode Rudd would have little respect throughout Asia.

I have great faith in Australians to force our governmenmts to do the bidding of the majority of us. Seen todays polls? Watch Rudd react. I'd love to hear his 'focus group' this morning.

Andrew Bartlett, I have had enough of this nonsense. I began by calling you a flawed man and have accused you of playing with words. I have put up scenarios and asked you to find fault with my argument and you continue to lie, pretend to misunderstand and continually play with words and take quotes out of context. You are no better than Sens. Cooke and Falkner, politically motivated nasty men playing politics with the truth.

You say there are no references to children overboard in the signals made by the HMAS Adelaide, yet on the third page of signals (see http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/2002/overboard/cable3.htm) you find several references to RAN sailors preventing the SUNCs from throwing children overboard. Parents threatened to throw their children overboard if they were not taken to Australia. I admit there is no evidence that the children were thrown overboard, but there is plenty of evidence that the SUNCs tried to throw the children overboard and were successfully prevented from doing so by armed guard. Plenty of adults deliberately jumped into the water.

The SUNCs tried to scuttle the SIEV4. They set fire to the engine room, set fire to the decks, wrecked the steering and threw navigational equipment over the side.

Any fair-minded Australian would conclude that they would do anything, even risk the lives of their children to reach our shores illegally.

Any fair-minded Australian would have difficulty in blaming the Qld. Public servants who investigated Cornelia Rau and Vivian Alavarez/Solon and other false names and dates of birth. Both are sad cases and I feel sorry for the women, but you and the ALP turned their plight into a vicious political attack against Sen. Amanda Vanstone, the Federal Minister for Immigration, Multiculturism and Ethnic Affairs.

Geoffrey Kelley

Andrew,

You say:

"I'll say this for you guys, your determination to ignore widely documented fact is very impressive. You're like ghosts of slain warriors on some ancient battle-field, doomed to keep fighting the war you lost long ago. But I'm not really interested in endlessly churning back over facts which have long been established, I'm interested in examining and debating realistic and workable approaches to the issues of today."

Yet all I see in your posts is the rehashing of what happenned years ago.

What are your suggestions for "workable approaches to the issues of today."

CJ Morgan et al are far too interested in accusing people of frog whistling and name calling to bother with actual solutions, so maybe you could have a bash.

geoffreykelley: "you find several references to RAN sailors preventing the SUNCs from throwing children overboard."

Did you link to the correct document? I see no such references. If you did link to the correct document, it would be helpful if you qouted the lines you are referring to.

For what is worth, what I see in the document you did link to is two references of threats to throw children overboard. They were not carried out. No reason was given as to why they were not carried out, and in particular no mention of them being "prevented".

As you say, it looks like the asylum seekers were fairly desperate to get onto the Adelaide, and wanted to force the issue. So they put life jackets on themselves and their kids, disabled their boat and started jumping into the water. It was a pretty good strategy. It didn't put them in any immediate danger, yet forced the crew on the Australian Frigate to act.

Stuart, firstly I have personally met a senior sailor from the HMAS Adelaide who told me he saw some adults trying to throw children overboard and into the RHIB and they were frightened that the children would hurt themselves if they did fall.

If you read the signal I referred to, page three, http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/2002/overboard/cable3.htm, you will read: “070557G/SUNC (suspected unidentified non-citizen) on top of coach house dressing small child in lifejacket and preparing to throw small child overboard. Child not thrown overboard. Child and father returned to wheelhouse of SIEV 04. BPO advises that child and father under observation in coach house, some SUNCs being returned to Siev 04 via RHIBs.

A few lines below you will read: “070626G/ Male SUNCs in vicinity of wheelhouse threatened to throw women and children overboard. This did not occur.

The SUNCs eventually scuttled the SIEV 04 whilst under tow. The children were eventually forced into the water by their parents and guardians.

These are the eyewitness reports made by the HMAS Adelaide reporting to their command. Cooke, Falkiner Bartlett et al interpreted these reports, as proving their kids were not thrown overboard. The cynical and appalling political tactics of the left were used to damage the Howard Govt.

It is true that the Navy was asked not to take illegals on board a RAN ship. Note that Rudd is using a merchant vessel with a P&O sign on the bow that suggests to me that we are leasing that vessel and she is registered overseas. Rudd will not let them on RAN vessels either because he knows that they have to be taken straight to Christmas Island and therefore become our responsibilities.

Andrew will take issue with my description of the Iraqi nationals as “illegals” because he considers it to be politically incorrect! I would remind Andrew and the left-wing supporters that their idea of politics is very different from mine, so I don’t believe it is politically incorrect at all!

Geoffrey Kelley

Andrew,

You say: “In your desperation to smear refugees and advocates …”

I say: The illegal’s and their advocates smear themselves.

--Imagine pleading for rescue and then refusing to leave the rescue ship unless it took you to your preferred port ( ala BOTH the Oceanic Viking AND The Tampa).

--Imagine claiming asylum once being reject, twice being rejected, and coming back again.

--Imagine the person you processed as a Afghani refugee --- terrified of the Taliban—turned out later to be from another part of the world.

--Imagine granting asylum, and finding a short time later the refugees had returned to visit ,even work, in the country of their persecution.

--Imagine advocates advertising in an Australian backpacker magazine the wherewithal of easy refugee status in Oz.

Even to someone as—big hearted & humanitarian as you—surely that must be a bit jarring!

Do you concede that the some of the asylum seeker sabotage their vessels , or are reports of sabotage merely another attempt to smear their impeccable characters ?

I don't believe I have ever read such pitiful drivel in all my life - except for the original Reith offering.
Fancy dressing a child in a life jacket, while onboard a demonstrably unseaworthy boat. What terrible parents!
What is a parent supposed to do in that situation? Tell their children to be noble, and go down with the ship?
I'm a fourth generation dinkum Aussie, and do you know what I would do, If I had my children aboard an unseaworthy vessel, with a navy boat just a few metres away?
I would throw them overboard!
The fact these parents didn't actually do it, simply indicates they didn't trust the Australian Navy as much as I would.
And apparently, with good reason.
(I mean no offense to the Naval personel, just a recognition that they are under orders to demonstrably unscrupulous political masters).

Whilst from some perspectives I admire certain characteristics of the BlueWolfies from the Liberal party, in other regards I do find them so terribly disingenuous and opportunistic in the most profane of ways.

The reality, to me, is that the Libaral party as a collective simply do not want anyone who is not educated and of means coming to Australia.

That is quite clear upon examination of immigration law and regulations. Seriously, not enough smarts or money to additionally afford an agent plus the minimum in terms of financials, that being the so called Assurance of Support, and forget it, you simply will not be found to be eligible at law to be considered.

Of course, the BlueWolfies know that if they come out and just say we no longer wish to participate in the Asylum Convention, that they risk offending Australians as a whole to the extent of consignment to political oblivion.

So instead, they develop a sicko stream of pseudo intellectualism and puke it forth ala an ongoing chunderous projectile stream through the media to try and hook and enrage the racist, prejudiced and intolerant underbelly of Australian society, and in that regard, on this issue in the past they have been very successful.

Whilst these sorts of tactics are acceptable in some places, I would hope with the advent of video on demand and Knowledge Nation info servers, that increasingly the consciousness of this country will be elevated to the extent of individuals choosing to caste their votes to other than proponents of same.

Grim, I don’t know where you get your facts from, but why do you say the SIEV 04 was demonstrably unseaworthy? The RAN made the boat good twice over after the SUNCs sabotaged it. Read the eyewitness report and stop making things up! Twice the RAN declared the vessel seaworthy.

Left-wingers like you, Sens Cooke, Falkiner and Bartlett have tried to pillory the Howard Govt. and the RAN for party political gain. You now know the truth and I have posted the references so wise up and stop making up porkies.

I object when the left-wingers attack the RAN. It is unimaginable that any Australian seaman would stand by and let another mariner perish. You are offensive to the RAN when you suggest that you don’t trust them. Surely you have seen photos of brave Australian sailors from the HMAS Adelaide in the water assisting the SUNCs after they jumped overboard following the scuttling of the SIEV 04.

The ABC used this footage to illustrate the fate of the 350 SUNCs who were lost in Indonesian waters when the SIEV X sank. The ABC purported to show the deaths of these people and suggested that the RAN stood by watching as they drowned! They had the gall to use footage from the SIEV 04 to illustrate the drownings of the passengers on the SIEV X and that report cemented in to the folklore of you people that the RAN and the Australian Govt. watched unfortunates drown and failed to assist them.

The left shamelessly used this tawdry tactic for political means to tarnish the reputation of one of the best govts this nation has ever had! Since you are always the first to claim the high moral ground in any political argument, why do you always lie to make your moral points? The ALP does it again and again. The ABC had done it twice in the last twelve hours (Q&A and this morning’s news. The Libs have a policy on boat people and it is unchanged from the last govt.

Geoffrey Kelley

Geoffrey

Initially you said "I know the children were thrown overboard because I have met the eyewitnesses, senior sailors who were there."

Now you say "I have personally met a senior sailor from the HMAS Adelaide who told me he saw some adults trying to throw children overboard and into the RHIB."

So your one witness also said no child was thrown overboard. And I also find it hard see to why it's a terrible for a parent on an unseworthy boat to put a lifejacket on their child and try to get them into the RHIB (Rigid Hull Inflatable Boat).

Note Commander Norman Banks from HMAS Adelaide also categorically stated in evidence that "by 10 October, and certainly by 11 October, it was clear to the Commanding Officer Adelaide, Commander JTF 639 and the Maritime Commander Australia that no children had been thrown overboard and that no children had been recovered from the water."

Yet it appears you are prepared to continue to suggest that the Chief of Defence and Comander Banks were untruthful under oath. You are the one attacking the RAN and their credibility by continuing to insist they were lying and by backing the totally discredited falsehood enthusiastically propogated by Mr Howard et al.

As for your attack of Grim regarding the comment that the refugee boat was unseaworthy, it is worth noting the statement of the Commander of HMAS Adelaide that "The vessel was only ever marginally seaworthy" and "Given the vessel sank 24 hours later, you could conjecture that the vessel’s capacity to remain seaworthy abated with time."

And I don't "take issue with yuor description of the Iraqi nationals as “illegals” because I consider it to be politically incorrect." I take issue with it because it is factually wrong and deliberately misleading.

Horus, yes clearly some refugees scuttle their boats - usually if they believe they are at risk of being pushed back or towed to a country where they don't have protection (such as Indonesia).

You are also seeking to smear an entire group of thousands of people on the basis that a small number may have done teh wrong thing such as make false claims. The majority of asylum seekers on boats are clearly refugees - that's been established over and over again. The fact there may be a few willing to risk their lives to try to con their way into a country is hardly a reason to smear thousands of others, let alone return them to danger, persecution or death.

And my apologies Shadow Minister, the reason why my comments appear to be "rehashing what happened years ago" is because I have had to counter the major factual errors that get being posted here. As you know, one can only do 700 words a day in commenting, so it doesn't leave much space for "suggestions for workable approaches to the issues of today."

For shorthand versions, I think the approach flagged in this article http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/refugee-crisis-calls-for-new-approach-20091107-i2e7.html or in the report outlined in this piece http://asiancorrespondent.com/andrew-bartlett-blog/new-report-documents-conditions-for.htm
go to the sort of approach we need to aim towards long-term.

Andrew, you are playing with words once again! You admit that the CO of the HMAS Adelaide stated under oath that, “The vessel was only ever marginally seaworthy…….” So, it was made seaworthy twice by the RAN and was sabotaged continually over several days. The lives of the SUNCs were never at risk and the HMAS Adelaide was prepared to accompany the vessel if it steamed under its own power. Of course the SUNCs refused to steam north and attempted to scuttle the boat by, among other things, setting fire to it twice. We can all read the evidence Andrew. The eyewitness reports are clearly stated in the four pages of signals that I posted earlier. Have you ever studied the signals Andrew? Are you aware of the contents? Can you say, hand on heart, that the SUNCs did not attempt to scuttle the vessel?

Are you playing with words again when you describe my use of the term “illegals” as factually wrong and deliberately misleading? Are you saying that it is quite legal for SUNCs to enter Australian waters and land on Australian sovereign territory? Are you saying the instructions given to the CO of the Adelaide to keep them out of Australian waters was an illegal instruction? If it was illegal, why was the policy and the actions committed by the Rudd Labor Govt.?

Where am I being factually wrong and deliberately misleading?

Can you please quote the Chief of Defence, Admiral Barrie, saying that no children were recovered from the water? Because he maintained that the children were thrown overboard into January of 2002!

Incidentally, how does the Tampa crisis differ from Rudd’s directives to the Tamils Sri Lankans he is trying to offload into Indonesia? The Australian Govt. took the 450 Afghan SUNCs from the Tampa and took them on board the troop ship, HMAS Manoora. That was quite an episode because the 450 Afghans outnumbered small crew of the HMAS Manoora and the sailors were in fear of their lives, having to put up with the filthy and degrading actions of the SUNCs.

Geoffrey Kelley

geoffreykelley, you have my thanks. Your persistent and unrelenting misrepresentation of the facts, and of any and all arguments against you, is very much like an 'own goal'; in favour of the side of the compassionate.
Having you on one's side is rather like being offering a humanitarian prize by the likes of Pol Pot. Even the links you yourself offer demonstrate nothing so much as your own one eyed blindness.
Let me quote myself, on the off chance you might actually read and understand me the second time.
"The fact these parents didn't actually do it, simply indicates they didn't trust the Australian Navy AS MUCH AS I WOULD.
And apparently, with good reason.
(I mean NO OFFENSE to the Naval personel, just a recognition that they are under orders to demonstrably unscrupulous political masters).

An interesting article in THE AUSTRALIAN today paints the leader of the 250 Asylum seekers as a criminal gang member who used to live in Canada and took his ethnic problems to that country. He was deported from Canada due to criminal activity and now looks like due to all the Lefties he will be accepted into Australia.
looks liek all these people will be fine citizens.