Sorry Sasha

Its disjointed and trails off into fragments.

The generalised references to Clinton and Peace Prize appear to be draw cards that are dropped in the next two pages of minute detail about small unit fighting

- with the "Legendary infantry battalion 6RAR from Brisbane" tone...

Pete

I don't know about decorating Clinton but I am quite certain that the actions of the Australian Government from John Howard , Alexander Downer down the line should earn time in the dock for their lack of action in supplying peace keepers instead of being so bloody naive as to believe that the Indonesians could be trusted knowing what had occurred in the invasion where they not only murdered Australian journalists, but commenced a blood bath that continued for the next 24 years.

Information detailing atrocities were received by contact radio throughout the occupation that were ignored by the Australian media on the excuse that they were unsubstantiated but printed in the 'East Timor News' an independent journal published in Sydney.These radio reports were intercepted in Australia by DSD and would have been known by the Government

The Howard Government, like subsequent Labor Governments put their 'relations' with Indonesia before the issue of human rights.
The establishment of an agreement with Indonesia regarding the border between Indonesia, Timor and Australia which gave Australia a substantial area of the oil and gas fields which have since been challenged by the East Timorese was the Major prize.

History is now being repeated with Australia remaining silent regarding the human rights violations occurring in West Papua.

No I would not necessarily decorate Bill Clinton but what is within the power of our country is to pay back the proceeds of theft from East Timor of their natural resources.

If giving political independence to unsustainable states is the prerequisite of getting a Nobel Peace Prize, as it seems to be, then Indonesian president BJ Habibie surely deserves to be a Nobel laureate.

He is the father of East Timorese independence. Habibie single-handedly started a crash program to rid East Timor from Indonesia, without any pressure or urgings from anyone. As he said, he felt East Timor is just a black hole for Indonesian govt subsidies, yet produced nothing back for the country. This subsidy is no longer affordable for Indonesia at that time. That's why in early 1999, Habibie declared that he does not want to hear about any "East Timor" problem by 2000.

The whole referendum and independence of East Timor is the product of Habibie's initiative, nothing to do with Clinton or Howard or whathaveyou. Fact is: no Habibie --> no referendum --> no East Timorese independence.

Proud to be Indonesian.

The right to freedom and independence is not conditional on 'sustainability' although East Timor will have a good start with a sensibly managed Petroleum fund providing budgetry needs for developing the country's infrastructure.

I'm not sure of his motives or whether he miscalculated on the outcome, but John Howard urged President Habibe to allow a referendum on the choice of autonomy or Independence and to his credit, President Habibe accepted that sdvice. He would surely qualify for nomination for a Nobel Peace Laureate.

The fact that the people of East Timor voted overwhelmingly for Independence despite the degree of intimidation by TNI/militias speaks volumes about their opinion of rule under Indonesia, and the present Indonesian violation of the human rights of the indigenous people of West Papua should tell you something about the ongoing neo-colonial aspirations of Indonesia's ruling elite.

Of course, you should have pride in being Indonesian, I have many Indonesian friends and following on from WW2, as a proud Australian I supported independence for Indonesia against the efforts of the dutch to regain control.
That does not mean however that I am not aware of the short comings of both our countries Governments and their poor records in the matter of human rights.

A story in need of analysis is the Oz deployment to this event, so don't give it to to the AWM.

I dunno about Clinton, but I do know there were many lessons from the Oz deployment, one of which was that the progressive civilianisation of our uniformed services from the early 80s made the effective deployment of a force in being almost impossible. After all, soldiers need feeding and vehicles need repairing and civilian contractors in an Oz city cannot be deployed in support of the key combat arms. So much for the "Huge" White (Lies?) and the Bomber Beazley sharp end, for without the blunt end, any sharp end is potentially useless.

The soldiers I'd like to hear about are the Gurkhas who secured the LZ for the Oz troops to arrive!

They appear to have been lost in our usual parochial approach to military history. Perhaps a Greg Lockhart "The Minefield" (http://tinyurl.com/sappers) is needed to separate the political from the military and get to the raw bones of our political and military oligarchs attending this sad episode.

PS: Don't wait on any AWM revelations, Bomber Beazley is appointed to the Council of that place. History written by the almost participants?

And it’s not over yet. Daily paper dated August 28th 2009, sitting in front of me on the dining room table today reads
<EAST TIMOR IN JEOPARDY - The failure to prosecute those responsible for the violence that marred East Timor’s 1999 independence vote poses a continuing threat to the country’s stability a new report warns. >

MARACAS 1 :- The Howard government like subsequent Labor Governments put their relations with Indonesia before the issue of human rights. And more to the point, the Indonesian Government put their relationship with the Australian Government and the 12 billion dollars they receive in foreign aid from the Australian Government before their human abuses in East Timor.

I remember seeing the furore in the Indonesian parliament on the news (IT CAME TO PUNCHES BEING THROWN), when the Indonesian Government refused to let the Indonesian army march into the situation after Australia (reading between the obvious lines), informed Indonesia they were sending a peace keeping force and if they valued their 12billion dollars they would not declare war with Australia by sending in the Indonesian Army , not to mention the little matter of them being backed up by America in the advent of such an occurrence.

The groups the Australian Army did do battle with were breakaway militia groups who did not go along with the idea of withdrawing from Indonesia. If the Indonesian army had been allowed to intervene, it would have provoked war between Australia and Indonesia and because the Australian army would have been heavily outnumbered(The IndonesianArmy are a highly trained and a respected force and they have some fairly modern weapons at their disposal as well, America would have had no choice but to come in to support Australia.

America doesn’t have the men or the resources to save every country in the world. And still the situation in East Timor festers.

I think with the shadow over his morality, Clinton has zero chance of the Nobel peace prize.

Sharkfin,
your opinion of the capabilities of the Indonesian Military is somewhat over generous for an Army that has not really been tested in a theatre of war, unless you count defenceless civilians in Aceh and 24 years trying to snuff out the East Timorese Resistance.

The groups that Australia encountered near the border, retreated when faced with Australian trained troops they found weren't unarmed journalists.

Besides, in the event that Indonesia did decide to take Australia on they would have found they had bitten off more than they could chew.

The last thing we would need would be the US to save us; with their record of collateral damage we would really be in deep doodo.

No,absolutely not. I have just finished reading "From the Place of the Dead: Bishop Belo and the Struggle for East Timor". The United States,Australia and the Vatican are responsible for the deaths of thousands. And now there's West Papua !!

@maracas1:

WRT East Timorese petroleum fund, it's good idea if the East Timorese govt spread that money to local people so they could start consuming. With no domestic industry and with ET's imports mostly coming from Indonesia, most of that money will arrive into the hands of Indonesian exporters anyway.

WRT Habibie's motives, from his speeches prior to the referendum, it is clear that his intentions and expectations of holding the referendum was to kick East Timor out of Indonesia since it is becoming an unaffordable blackhole for central govt subsidies.

WRT to Howard's letter, well Howard is not the creator of the concept of "referendum". We were very familiar with that concept. The main reason for Habibie's decision to give independence to ET is his belief that ET was not part of Indonesia's original 1945 territorial claim and hence can be disposed (or acquired) at our leisure.

WRT to referendum results, I can say the same about the results of Western Australia's 1933 referendum to secede from Commonwealth of Australia, in which 68% of Western Australians voted for independence. This really shows how low Western Australians view Canberra rule. You were lucky King George V refused to grant separate status and that Western Australians were die-hard loyalists of the British crown, despite their disdain for Canberra rule.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secessionism_in_Western_Australia#1933_referendum

WRT to Australian INTERFET presence in 1999, Australian soldiers in ET were just tourists who were picked-up from the airport, given accomodation, and driven on sightseeing tours by Indonesian soldiers. As INTERFET commander General Peter Cosgrove said, Oz soldiers were "invited guests of Indonesian govt" which is the case for three months until ET was officially expelled from Indonesia by Act of Indonesian Parliament in November 1999.

Indonesia planned to withdraw from ET anyways, but we did not mind to baby-sit some Aussie tourists.

PICS OF OZ TOURISTS BEING SHOWN AROUND EAST TIMOR BY INDONESIAN SOLDIERS:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/purnomor/purnomor/UT0007469.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/purnomor/purnomor/UT0007414.jpg

Had we want to crush the INTERFET, we would have easily massacred them since there were 20,000 Indonesian troops in ET compared with 2,000 INTERFET soldiers.

@maracas1:

WRT to Oz support for Indonesia during our war of independence, it was interesting that a small section of the Oz population (the leftist dock workers and labour unions) supported us against the Dutch. This is thanks to the leadership and agitation of a small number of Indonesian leftist agitators who convinced the Oz leftists to support Indonesian cause.

These people were political prisoners of the Dutch colonial regime, who were brought to Australia by the Dutch to escape the Japanese invasion. In Queensland, NSW, and Victoria, these Indonesians eventually mixed with the local leftist associations. Many married Australian women. Eventually, they managed to get the Oz leftists to support Indonesian independence fight after the war. Just shows how a small number of Indonesians can influence politics in Western countries.

BTW LOL, you sound too young to be alive in 1940s. ;)

Proud to be Indonesian:

You express pretty extreme Nationalism in your efforts to obscure the motivations of President Habibe and John Howard.
Both these leaders were well aware of how Indonesia conducted the 1967 'referendum' in West Papua and how the Indonesians used a combination of deception,bribery and intimidation to achieve the result which was not in fact a true referendum of the people, but a consensus of appointed 'representatives'

Indonesia proceeded to intimidate the Timorese indicating to them in no uncertain terms that there would be bloodshed if they opted for Independence. so much for your assertion that Indonesia wanted to 'kick out Timor from Indonesia'.

After the referendum, the TNI/kopassus led pro Indonesian Militias wreaked havoc as they proceeded to murder people who were known to have campaigned for Independence whilst the Indonesian Military stood by and watched when they were supposed to be enforcing law-and-order

With Reference to the fighting prowess of Indonesian Troops who have never been tested in a war,but practice on unarmed women and children and old people the ratio of 10 to 1 in Indonesia's favour is insufficient against Australian Troops who do not massacre unarmed civiliams,seeking sanctuary in a church.

Your research on the assistance of the Australian Left to the cause of Indonesian Independence and analysis does not reflect the reality of the solidarity between Australians and Indonesian Activists. The relationships endured well into Independence until Suharto's bloody military terror that systematically murdered anyone suspected of left politics.

Thank you for the compliment ( that I sound young, not born before 1940) I have been retired for the last 11 years from 36 years work on the waterfront.

Gud Onya maracas1

You're ahead on balanced facts.

While PTBI is to commended on his mastery of Indo-centric, rightwing, fiction :)

Pete

maracas1,

when your military maps no longer show the land on which I live as "South Irian" and not Australia, I will stop thinking of you and your ilk as Javanese Imperialists....

SapperK9

I think there's a little confusion.

Don't you mean PTBI's/PTBI's Javanese military maps of "South Irian"? (Presumably Singapore and Malaysia are marked as "North Irian" ;)

maracas1 is, after all, an Aussie.

Pete

Still gives us the ignoble attribute of being part of the Javanese empire....

@maracas1:

You display quite naive mindset in believing that Howard can somehow arrange Indonesian govt policies. I think you should expand your horizons beyond your usual Oz-centric mindset. The fact is, Oz is a country with little power beyond its borders (except some limited power in nearby weak or failed states like PNG, ET, or Solomon Islands).

The origins of Habibie's decision to grant independence to East Timor can be found quite clearly in his autobiography, "Detik-detik yang Menentukan". His speeches prior to referendum also quite clearly indicates his eagerness to rid ET from Indonesia.

That's why ET President Ramos-Horta is so friendly towards Indonesia. He is thankful that the Indonesian govt decided to give ET its independence in 1999. He felt indebted to our country for this. Without Habibie's good grace, Ramos-Horta would still be rotting in some Melbourne apartment instead of the "president" he is today.

WRT to post-referendum violence, I believe it is the result of genuine anger from pro-Indonesian East Timorese (making-up a quarter of the population) combined with the arsonistic hobby of East Timorese (remember, 70% of Dili was burned down in a fortnight by East Timorese themselves in 2006 over some wage dispute).

For this violence, unfortunately the blame can be placed squarely into the hands of President Habibie for deciding to hold the referendum too quickly. He made his sudden decision without sufficient coordination and preparation from all parties involved, particularly the military. Hence, the security preparation was woefully inadequate to stop the usual ET arson habit.

Remember, thousands of Oz troops failed miserably in preventing 70% of Dili from being burned down by East Timorse themselves in 2006.

WRT to Oz troops, luckily Oz Army was not led by an unwise "hothead" like yourself. The wise General Cosgrove realised that INTERFET in ET were guests of the Indonesian govt, there to familiarise themselves to ET prior to taking over law and order responsibilities from Indonesian forces which planned to withdraw completely in November 1999.

As Gen Cosgrove said in farewell ceremony for Indonesian soldiers, the success of INTERFET mission is wholly thanks to the great assistance and cooperation of the "excellent" Indonesia armed forces.

WRT to Indonesian leftists, unfortunately Indonesian leftists did not share your "sympathy". The PKI (Indonesian Communist Party) were the most enthusiastic in launching Confrontation against the British neo-colonialists and imperialists (NEKOLIM) in Malaysia. Indonesian communist volunteers were responsible for the deaths of some Oz soldiers in that conflict.

@SapperK9:

Well, you can stop thinking about that now, since we never make any map calling Australia as "South Irian". LOL, where does that hilarious myth came from?

Proud to be Indonesian,
You will find yourself in trouble if you persist in believing your own propaganda.

That is not the way to critically examine the history of Indonesia's independence and the extreme violence that overtook the Soekarno era when Suharto took over, nor Indonesia's brutality when attempting to hold together the Javanese domination of the region.

West Papua too will succeed in achieving Independence despite the brutal actions of the Indonesian Military as the current violence affects the continuance of the McRowran mining which provides a large amount of tax revenue for the Indonesian budget.

To read an authoritive account of the Howard / Habibe relationship over East Timor you might find a book by Paul Kelly, Editor at Large of the Australian titled " The March of Patriots" published by Melbourne University Press, a useful cronicle.

Without accepting Indonesia's shortcomings and past errors and mistakes, your country will never achieve it's full potential to improve the lives of all the people , not just the priviledged few who hold the develoopment of democracy back with continuing corruption

@maracas1:

LOL, so my point of view is automatically branded as "propaganda", while your statements are the "sacrosanct truth"? I think you need to un-learn your habit of making Oz-centric, self-gratituting, dogmatic statements.

WRT to historical examination, we Indonesians are proud of our history. And we certainly do not need moral preaching about human rights from Australians (descendents of colonialists who massacred Aborigines and stole their land).

WRT to West Papua, it is sad that you seem to express pleasure over the murder of Oz engineer Drew Grant by the barbaric Papuan separatist criminals. Thankfully, the Indonesian police have arrested the barbaric perpetrators and the mine has now functioned normally. These outrages will only strengthen the efforts of Indonesian security apparatus to crush and annihilate these barbaric criminals, to protect the people and our foreign guests. SHAME ON YOU FOR SYMPATHISING WITH CRIMINALS WHO MAKE WIDOW OUT OF DREW GRANT'S WIFE!

WRT to "March of Patriots", interesting read indeed. Here are some excrepts that further supported my points:

On Habibie's Audacity:
"In late January 1999 the Indonesian cabinet took its remarkable decision. East Timor would be offered a consultation (later defined as a referendum) on autonomy or independence. This was Habibie's personal decision; it was impetuous, audacious, dangerous and utterly stunning. Habibie had called the bluff of the old pro-Suharto establishment and the army."

On INTERFET's certain destruction if Indonesian forces wanted to destroy them:
"The opening days of the deployment were the most dangerous of Howard's prime ministership to that point. Howard expected casualties. Habibie refused to take his calls. Australian troops were told they would be targets. White says: "We were very exposed. If the militias had resisted we would have had trouble. If backed by TNI, we would have been defeated.""

Indeed, ET referendum and independence was the result of the audacious "Habibie's personal decision", and Indonesian army could have easily massacred the INTERFET had we wanted to do so.

PTBI

Your response does you no credit.

Being proud of the brutality of Indonesian Army against defenceless civilians is nothing to crow about.

WRT Australian's treatment of Aboriginal people, we are certainly not proud of the colonial treatment of the indigenous people of this country. Indeed our concern for the welfare of Indigenous people has led the present Government into further actions intended to improve the lives of Australian Aborigines, not always with success, but still persevering to tackle the problems of remoteness and disadvantage of cultural preferences.

WRT The Habibe /Howard exchanges and the hypothetical prowess of our respective armed forces,Only time will tell and the TNI should improve in time given the annual financial aid and training they receive from Australia.

@maracas1:

WRT to history, we Indonesians know everything in history happened for a reason. The events of 1965 is not result of evil plot by capitalists or "the CIA" to destroy communists, but was a combination of two factors:

1) Overzealous desire for vengeance by the Indonesian military due to the murders of seven top army generals by communists on September 30, 1965

2) Defensive reaction from religious Indonesians (Muslims+Christians+Catholics+Hindus) who reasonably believed that the commies posed an existential threat by their attempts to turn Indonesia into a communist and godless state.

WRT to Aborigines, make any excuses you want. Regardless, we Indonesians know your history. We are not interested in getting human rights lecture from a country with such terrible history of human rights abuses on Aborigines.

WRT to Indonesian military, I think the military is striving to improve its capabilities all the time regardless of any foreign aid.