Oliver,
>>Empedocles saw "love" and "hate" as alternative forces.<<
I do not think Empedocles would have correlated the love-hate relationship (where the one is the negation of the other) with the yin-yang complementarity.

Dear David f,
>>What do you do as a mathematician?<<
The short answer is nothing, since I have been in retirement for 13 years.

The long answer is that (besides lecturing to undergraduate science and engineering students) my field was differential geometry (e.g. connections in fibre bundles that after Yang-Mills physicists call gauge fields). In retirement I dedicate all my available time to reading, and trying to keep abreast, in the field of my old hobby - philosophy of science and religion, using my mathematical insights (whatever they are still worth) as the background for understanding and speculating about reality. (For instance when seeing mythological, narrative, scriptural or doctrinal models of the unfathomable Divine reality as analogues of mathematical models - underlying physical theories - trying to explain physical reality).

Dear George,

Empedocles was merely a FYI add-on: An historical titbit. I think he considered love and hate in terms of ebbs and flows.

As for Yin-Yang, hate might not negate love. Consider recent OLO posters, some whom profess love of the Christian god, yet seem to hate Moslems. Likewise, the more Moslems engage (surrender to) their concept of God, the less they engage alternatives. I am not purporting Ying-Yang universal, as I am not adequately read on the matter to make such a claim. Quite the opposite, I suspect Yin-Yang phenomena are not universal.

Dear Sells,

The Egyptians, Greeks and Classical Romans would just melded Jesus and Al-Lah and avoided all the monotheistic angst

Dan,

I’ve been giving the following paragraph some more thought…

<< So when I mention the names of some of the countless scientists who don’t see any conflict with their faith, some may counter with ‘correlation does not imply causation’.>>

I can actually see what you meant here, but I think it’s a pretty bad example, because it doesn’t mention anything objective, just the subjective opinions of many scientists.

Either way, you accept that it is a fallacy to suggest that correlation implies causation (well, it can sometimes, but it doesn’t automatically. Correlation can suggest causation, but it’s a fallacy to suggest that correlation proves causation)...

<<This is true.>>

But then, in the very next sentence, you go on to mention a correlation...

<<But my thesis is that the overwhelming testimony of modern Western science is that faith has been more often than not a healthy accompaniment to good science.>>

Firstly, the opposite is actually true. The more irrelevant religion has become to society, the more we progress.

Secondly, what are you trying to prove by mentioning this (alleged) correlation if causation isn’t a part of your point?

Are you saying that it “suggests” causation? If so, what is your proof to support this suggestion?

Remembering too that I discredited the orderly creator argument at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=7684#121498 showing how it is largely irrelevant.

Even if I hadn’t though, that was just the very beginning of the Modern Science era. What sustaining causation has religion had on science, throughout this era, to help it continue to progress?

I could mention that crime rates in the US have steadily dropped since the teaching of evolution in schools, but unless I could prove that the two are related my statement is completely meaningless.

Oh, Dan... One other point that I wasn’t able to fit into my initial response...

<<In the 1980s Gish, Parker, and others held numerous creation/evolution debates in full auditoriums on US university campuses. By the accounts of many (including some of their opponents) they did pretty well until the evolutionists, who hold the status quo, wised up and realised it was usually counter productive to debate. It would be more gainful to assume victory.>>

Firstly, we now know a lot more about evolution than we did back then. Sophisticated computer modelling and a much better understanding and knowledge of DNA has helped, along with the new discoveries that are being made on an almost daily basis. During the publishing of Dawkins’ newly released book, ‘The Greatest Show on Earth’, three exciting discoveries had been made in which he was given special consideration to edit the book again.

That’s not to say that there wasn’t much evidence before, it’s merely a small taste of just how overwhelming and demonstrable the evidence for evolution is.

Secondly, it doesn’t matter who said what about how the Creationists performed in the debate (and I think “performed” should be the operative word there), because it says nothing about the fact of the matter, and the fact of the matter is that Creationism had already lost in the Halls of Science long before the 80’s. Creationists have absolutely nothing but a swag of fallacies, selective data and a bunch of misleading quotes - As you and I have so thoroughly demonstrated together.

We make a good team.

Most real scientists don’t debate Creation “scientists” for the simple fact that it gives credence to religious extremists who haven't a shred of evidence for their “theory” after all these centuries. All they can do is throw rocks and curse at one of the most well-supported scientific theories in existence. Creationists have proven themselves to be an opposition about as effective as a person standing by a building trying to knock it down with a feather.

No one’s “assuming” victory, Dan. It was obtained long ago.

“While paganism could only seek to escape from the material world of the body, Christianity, with its proclamation that God had become a man, affirmed the body and gave rise to hospitals and medicine to care for the body.” - Sells

"Unwashed wool supplies very many remedies…..it is applied….with honey to old sores. Wounds it heals if dipped in wine or vinegar….yolks of eggs….are taken for dysentery with the ash of their shells, poppy juice and wine. It is recommended to bathe the eyes with a decoction of the liver and to apply the marrow to those that are painful or swollen." – Pliny

“A person should put aside some part of the day for the care of his body. He should always make sure that he gets enough exercise especially before a meal." - Celsus

"There should be no marshes near buildings, for marshes give off poisonous vapours during the hot period of the summer. At this time, they give birth to animals with mischief-making stings which fly at us in thick swarms." Columella

"We must take great care in searching for springs and, in selecting them, keeping in mind the health of the people." Vitruvius

“While the gods of paganism were remote” – Sells

Please scroll down to "Hermes in the Iliad" and "Hermes in the Odyssey":

- http://messagenetcommresearch.com/myths/bios/hermes.htm

Oly.