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Of all the peoples on earth their group was peculiarly fitted to bring the glory of their nation to the world. Since the nineteenth century nationalisms stemmed from people who generally accepted the Bible which specified the Jews as the chosen people somehow the Jews must be shown to be usurpers."Secular Messianism carries the idea that history has a meaning and direction leading to an apotheosis of fulfillment.

Both Marxism and Nazism embodied ideas of secular messianism. To a large extent they had the same source. That source is the German philosopher, Hegel.

Just as a single human being progresses from childhood through youth to maturity, so, Hegel thought, human cultures have progressed from what he calls the "Oriental world" through the Greek and Roman experiences and into the "Christian world," by which he means medieval and modern Europe. The idea that there is an engine of progress, and that history has a meaning and direction is another belief that has powered a great deal of craziness. Once you postulate that history has a meaning and direction you, of course, see
yourself on the right side of history and those on on the wrong side of history as somewhat less than human. One on the right side of history has the right and even the duty to destroy those on the wrong side of history. Hegel, Joachim of Fiore, Marx and other individuals have had this conceit. Hegel's apotheosis or fulfilment was the Prussian state. Marx's was the eventual classless society. The Nazis' apotheosis was the Thousand year
Reich.

Followers of philosophies inspired by Hegelian thought are responsible for millions of Jewish and other corpses. Followers of Hegel split into left Hegelians the most notable being Karl Marx and right Hegelians who were mainly German nationalists. Hegel opposed individualist concepts of freedom contending that only absorption in an organic society
generates self-realisation for the individual. The outcome of this was the justification of state tyranny under Lenin, Hitler, Mussolini and Mao and the murder of millions. The we/they philosophies of class struggle, nationalism and race struggle supported these murders.

George
You cannot compare secularism as it stands in Australia to that under Communism. I don’t understand the difficulties that religious folk find abot secularism.

Secularism allows religious people to worship a faith of their choosing. I know many Christians who are secularists and believe that secularism serves religion as well as democracy.

What is the alternative? To have one religion reign supreme? Look at the outcome in places like Afghanistan.

As far as counsellors/Chaplains go, we agree that some counsellors will be wanting in terms of level of professionalism and as I said earlier we all have biases. The fact is this ‘wanting’ is only muddied further if we throw religious motivation into the mix. Another are of contention for assessing suitability for the role.

School counsellors might be Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or Atheists, but it is not within the scope of their role to use their position to indoctrinate particularly when dealing with vulnerable students. A Chaplain's role is less clear given the obvious religious nature of their position.

What advantages can you see for Chaplains in schools? Given that many of the students will be Buddhist, Muslim, Atheists, Hindus etc. How does this serve students as a whole?

If we let Christian Chaplains in we also have to let in Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu equivalents – this would be both unwieldy, expensive and for most undesirable.

For me, spiritual belief is the province of the home or local Church. This does not mean that topics of religion, politics and ideology cannot be discussed at school with open and lively debate and discussion but not as a subject in itself when the intention is to indoctrinate.

We have to be honest about this, my own experience with schools is Chaplains do not invite dissension or discussions about God but merely wish to ‘instruct’. The two instructors at my daughter’s primary school some years ago were not even qualified but attendees of a local Church. Naturally many parents chose for their children not to attend instruction as it was voluntary in a public school.

There have been plenty of wars fought because of, or in spite of religious beliefs.

Anybody know of one that was stopped by them?

Both sides try to impose their views on the other except one seems to do so with more conviction and self-interest.

Schools were initially set up in this country by the Churches not the state. Religious education in schools was part of the agreement the State made with the churches so that they would hand the schools over to the state. The concession of religious education was given so that the secular state would not dictate that aspect of education. Today, provided you can satisfy the legislation any group may teach a group for their religion within a school and any parent may remove their student from it. Most teachers are unpaid and voluntary.
Should the state now attempt to remove this forum for discussion of religion from schools? Surely this would be to enhance the divisions and foster a culture where there is a lack of understanding and increased prejudice. Most school teachers would happily admit that they are not trained to teach on religion and hence allowing others to teach can offer real explanation.
The reason that I think that Religious Education is not necessarily indoctrination is that I think there is more to this world than mere empiricism can deliver. While some may wish to argue about epistemology, the majority of people in this country still look beyond mere empiricism to answer the questions of life.
Should those who volunteer their time be allowed in our schools? The reality is that they will be, either for the purpose of religious instruction, or in other projects. Most schools look for any program that will provide positive outcomes for their students, something that the religious have been good at for millennia.
The paid chaplaincy question has a different character to it. It seems the government has decided that it is one way to promote values in our society and so for the moment is providing some financial assistance, which is often supplemented by other organisations. Chaplains’ roles can be diverse, from teaching Religious Education, through to taking significant time with families in hardship and rebellious students. Generally, there is no compulsion to convert but merely the offer of assistance in times of trouble

i know a qld school chaplain who says jesus sits with her in her kitchen while she's doing the washing up of an evening and instructs her as to how best to bring her school children to god. i would never allow my children to be in a room alone with such a person. she is very clearly insane. and yet she is allowed to "offer assistance" to children in her school, as a matter of law, in any way she (and the kitchen jesus) sees fit, with no checks or balances whatsoever.

australian society has sunk that low. we are actually that ill.

BrettP...You use the term Religious Education, Do you really know what this means?

The only proof of a Christian GOD is the Bible.

The fact that generations have been indoctrinated to believe in him doesn't make it so. Is teaching the baby Jesus story really honest?

If Jesus is God (even though in John 14:28 he states "....I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I"), do you realise the implications?

If Jesus is God he killed innocent children in Noah's flood and in Moses' time. If Jesus is God he allowed Moses to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing in Numbers 31:17-18

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

If Jesus is God he allowed people to be stoned to death for disrespecting their parents, blasphemy and other minuscule transgressions.

Will you teach Moses was found in the rushes and forget the above?

So God allowed "himself" to be killed on the cross to save us from sin...That's not what the Bible says...he allowed his son to be killed! What sort of loving father would do that? Trinity in question again!

So how many years study have you done on other religions besides yours? I think what you are stating is teaching Christianity not religious Education.

Financing Chaplains in schools is farcical...If children need councelling employ trained social workers OR psychologists. This is Govts. putting naive people in the wrong jobs for a cost benefit!

As you didn't try to answer the Biblical questions I posed are you really qualified to teach even Christianity?

If teaching Chritianity selectively a deceptive practice?

Should education be about fact or myth?

IF we all have a spiritual side to us that doesn't make relgious instruction....education!

Do you know your Bible well enough to teach?

Which Jesus will you instruct the children to believe in?