Houellebecq
Gosh you're a stirrer. I am sure you would like to believe lots of things, whether they are valid or not is another matter.

Who defines what makes 'real woman' or a feminist? You!

Lottie, what about a child's rights - such as to a healthy life? Is that not more important than a woman's right to self-determination in the act of giving birth? What would you think if your mother had selfishly insisted on a homebirth and you had ended up handicapped for the rest of your life?

Houllie

"I'm thinking, are all feminists like pelican, or like Lottie? I'd like to believe they're all like Lottie."

Feminists are as diverse as any other group of people.

Now repeat the above 20 times, maybe your brain will eventually get it that women who believe in equality of opportunity for all people are not a homogenous group, but hold a variety of beliefs from whether they should have a choice of home birth, hospital birth or whatever. Also that the "Lotties" have as much right to express an opinion as the "Pelicans", the "Fractelles" as well as yourself. I know how much it must irritate you that you cannot dismiss all feminists as being hairy fat dykes, poor you. I guess that members of the Ku Klux Klan must feel as irritated by blacks for not fitting their narrow little stereotypes either.

As for home-birthing, if there are no health reasons, why shouldn't a woman bring her baby into the world in a calm and peaceful environment? How is this "selfish"?

As a midwife and a mother, I feel I have some knowledge on this subject.
I am not an advocate of homebirths in this country because most women are too far away from hospitals if something goes wrong.
And believe me, things can go awfully wrong, even with the best of planning.
I have read up on the history of birthing, and have found that originally all women gave birth in their homes with the local midwife in attendance. More women and children died during childbirth than lived during this time.
Doctors were often called when all else had failed, but were often not successful in saving mum or babe.
As time went on, it was found that if a doctor was called earlier in the labour, when things first started to go wrong, then the outcome was usually so much better.
Thus, it became more desirable then for women to have their babies in a medical setting, close to all help for all eventualities.
The mum and baby mortality rates became lower and lower as the years went on.
Now we women have a choice of just having midwives deliver us, with Doctors near by if problems arise.
That's not to say there are no fatalities or problems if birthing in hospitals of course, but I would say there is no case for going back to the days of all of us birthing well away from a doctors help if the worst should happen.
That would be a huge mistake.

suzeonline

I don't think anyone is suggesting a return to the old ways of birthing, just a more humane approach to such an important event. Some hospitals (mostly private) have had special birthing centres constructed, just so a mother can give birth in serene rather than clinical surrounds - while still close to medical aid should an emergency occur.

What concerns me here, is the implication by some that women are incapable of making the best decision for themselves. Most of us are not brainless, selfish twits and if we can bring our babies into this world in the best way possible we will choose that.

Cheers

Fractelle,

Not too cluey are you. I'm wasting my time I fear.

pelican,

Maybe you can explain to Fraccy .

'Who defines what makes 'real woman' or a feminist? You!'

Yep. I do. And Fraccy or Gynx normally define what a real man is. i.e. anyone who makes a show of disagreeing with antiseptic with lots of indignation.

See, in any gender thread there are a few rules.

a) antispetic must be there.
b) Fractelle must be there.
c) Fractelle must position herself as a victim before the thread even gets started.
d) CJ must pipe in early with a wise crack at anti.
e) anti must mention promenarians.
f) Fractelle must state that she isn't interested in a gender war, regardless of the fact that it's for that very reason she is present.
g) Col will say something profound and entertaining. He always does.
h) If it's losing momentum, or becoming tame, I'll generally try and kick it along.
i) Fractelle will ask where all the 'real men' are if people are ignoring anti or egging him on to stir things up. CJ may get a special mention here. Robert will be a little put out if he doesn't.
j) anti will rave on about feminists even when everyone has gone home.
k) Fractelle will mention 'broad church'
l) SJF will pipe in with something from a gender studies text book circa 1973.
m) I'll wet myself laughing.
n) Yabby will sya something that's charming, honest, smells of common sense, but with seriously misogynist undertones.
o) James will mention circumcision.
p) It's getting late, so anti will start on about universities.
q) Some weird person will make weird irrational arguments while arguing with antiseptic always under a different name.
r) New feature - Scouts!