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The Forum > Article Comments > Religion: is it forever? > Comments

Religion: is it forever? : Comments

By Peter Bowden, published 22/7/2009

Rational beliefs in atheism will never entirely win out, for they are a total misunderstanding of human nature.

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1 deals merely with precedent. Evolutionary history is replete with the unprecedented.

2 is a negative take on positivism, robbing the term of its aspirations and usurping it for a retrograde retreat into constructivist culturalism. Your take is not “total rationality”, but “rationale”—a cynical and provincial acceptance of the absurdity of life outside your cosy little beliefs. “Communities” will always also contain radical elements, a cohort that sees beyond the termite mound. Moreover, in your simplistic take on social convention you elide the individual psyche, possibly a microcosmic realm antimonious to spurious cultural reality—or at least not limited to it.
3 Having been through this loss scenario, I attest that religion offers nothing but banal convention, an insult to the injury—a Panglossian/Pascalian palliative or wager. Life is of course finally overwhelming, and there was no shame in Foucault’s or Oscar Wilde’s deathbed concessions.
4 Who cares if these terminal optimists, these Ned Flanders' of the world, squeeze more out of their pathetic lives? Longevity is overrated. And evolution of course is not synonymous with progress—humans might well evolve the lifespan of a housefly!
5 Surely before we have to come up with a valid “counter-argument” you, or religion, has to come up with a “valid” argument? Sorry, but wishful thinking, even under the grandiose heading “Faith”, just doesn’t cut it.

Anyway, what is wrong with plain old ignorance? Better to accept one’s ignorance than to be ignorant, however pious.
Posted by Squeers, Wednesday, 22 July 2009 6:59:44 PM
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Religion will be with us for all time,in one form or another, I agree.
Religious beliefs are different to cultural beliefs, by which many people of the world live by.
So, as far as I am concerned, we do not need religion to live a good, moral life.
Christians especially do not agree with this argument. The country with the largest population on Earth is China, with their people spread all over the world after emmigrating. Do Christians suggest that the largely non-Christain majority of peoples in this world are not morally sound? Probably.
Posted by suzeonline, Wednesday, 22 July 2009 8:09:24 PM
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I agree with Bowden's conclusion that some humans will probably always persist in believing in religious ideas, his reasoning and evidence leave much to be desired.

Others have pointed out the specifics of his spurious arguments, but this one jumped out at me:

<< Or Jainism, 10,000 years earlier stated an overriding rule of life - not to hurt one another. >>

Really? The earliest records of Jainism date back to about 1000 BCE. Undoubtedly people articulated the general desirability of not hurting each other prior to that, but 12,000 years ago the ancestors of the Jains were still tribal nomads who hadn't invented writing yet (as, indeed, were the ancestors of followers of all major religions).

Oh well, at least his intent seems worthy, and he ultimately arrives at the most likely conclusion - albeit accidentally.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 22 July 2009 8:30:25 PM
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ALWAYS remember that your inherent heart-disposition wants and needs Infinite, Absolute, True, Eternal Happiness.

A quote from the author of these two references re why the religious or rather Spiritual impulse is our primary urge and need.

1. http://www.dabase.org/dualsens.htm

2. http://www.dabase.org/tfrbkyml.htm

ALL of human culture, philosophy and ideas (including atheism), and even our individual life-strategies, are an attempt to either come to terms with the over-whelming fact of death. Or to de-sensitize ourselves to our hell-deep fear of death---and of course for good reason, because sheer naked exposure to our always existential terror would drive us mad.
Posted by Ho Hum, Thursday, 23 July 2009 2:38:02 PM
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Pelican wrote: "This article is not about the truth or otherwise of religious belief but whether religion will survive or not, and why."

Dear Pelican,

I have the hope, perhaps unreasonable, that the survival of religion is related to the truth of religion. Some people abandon their beliefs when they are shown to be untrue. Others abandon their beliefs when they become convinced there is no evidence to sustain those beliefs. I used to believe in God and was fairly religious. Finally, I gave up that belief when I became convinced that it was not supported by the evidence. I doubt that I am unique.

All religions are human inventions. The particular invention called Christianity will disappear as the belief in the pantheon of Greek and Roman gods, Manichaeism and other religious flights of fancy have disappeared. However, other superstitions will emerge. However, one can hope that they will in general be restricted to the more gullible and uneducated parts of the population. Unfortunately intelligent and educated people can sometimes be as gullible as others the hope may be in vain.

Dear Ho Hum,

I think that those who talk about the fear of death as common to all humans may be assuming that all humans share their fear. My former wife who was a nurse told me that her patients who knew they were terminal in general were ready for their approaching death. I am 83 and feel I have made many mistakes and wrong turns in life. It is comforting to realise that probably in the near future I will not be able to continue.
Posted by david f, Thursday, 23 July 2009 2:59:00 PM
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PTB wrote: "Australia currently has bad government because the logic chips of atheists are hot wired to dishonesty."

The above is an example of the prejudice of the religious bigot. Bigoted religionists believe people who don't believe in the same nonsense as they do are not as good. There is absolutely no evidence that atheists are more or less honest than people who believe in religion. Of course if religious believers based their beliefs on evidence there would be no religious believers. Europe was once almost completely dominated by Christianity. The period is with good reason called The Dark Ages. Charles Freeman wrote "The Closing of the Western Mind" which described how the adoption of Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire caused European humanity to replace the spirit of enquiry in the ancient world with the dogmas of Christianity. The French and American Revolutions brought the idea of separation of church and state where democratic governments were supposed to treat all citizens equally regardless of their religious beliefs or lack of them. European civilisation moved out from under the darkness, mind-deadening influence and evil of Christianity.

I gave up belief in God because honesty demanded it.

PTB also wrote: "When a religion is about love, as the Christian religion is"

Here PTB ignores the evidence of the Crusades, the Inquisition, imperialism justified to convert the heathen, the wars of the Reformation, the conversion of Europe by violence and the twentieth century Holocaust, the product of centuries of Christian-inspired hate. Of course if Christians based their beliefs on evidence there would be no Christians. From my reading of history Christianity is a religion of hate that uses the word, love, to describe itself. It is Orwellian. War is peace, and Christian hate is love.
Posted by david f, Thursday, 23 July 2009 3:01:07 PM
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