Ah. sweet music to my ears.

I have three sons ploughing through the Qld 'edumacation' system.

Two have passed out the other end, one still battles daily with mindless Ed Qld silliness dressed up as 'in pursuit of excellence'.

It is not, it is low grade, badly managed, gormless, nit-picking, dull, empty and largely a waste of time.

Ed Qld resent parents who ask why the English reading books are 30 yaers old, why the maths books are poorly written with wrong answers, questions and examples, why the science books, highlighted by an ex-principal, are useless...all falls on deaf ears at the school, district, region, DGs door, and finally at the feet of the Minister.

No one cares, but most of all, none of them have any desire to self examine, listen, or read the results.

What was Welliegogs answer to 'the tests'?

Our underperfoming teaching staff will now drop all and start to 'teach the tests'.

As they do already with the QCS test, with 12 months of cramming to lift the results.

And of course, the amount of time Ed Qld spends promoting 'chaplains' and RI instead of maths, science (where despite Ed Qld denials Intelligent Design is allowed to be taught across Qld) real English and whatever else, is just shocking.

It's not so much the fact that our state schools are now defacto evangelical recruiting grounds, so much as the lack of intelligence on the part of the school principals who mistake all this as being a benefit.

The Ed Qld teachers job description requires teachers to attend to all levels of students. They do not. They cater to the poorest students first, who consume time, and are neither supported by worthwhile PD, nor sufficient materials, nor support staff, nor intelligent leadership, nor any hint of imagination.

All this is endorsed by aquiescent P&Cs, an EQ compliant QCPCA, and a totally silent QTU, topped off by parents who want nothing to do with the schools because they know there is no point in questioning anything.... coupled with their memories of their own time in school.

As economic refugees from Melbourne to Queensland in 1996 my primary children were amazed that they were repeating work, but that was compensated by the progress in Maths which made a huge difference to my daughters' confidence.
When it came to choosing high school I was dismayed that the State school could not offer my daughter, Maths B and science subjects to lead to University entrance scores to progress to a Science degree(is she so desired).
The reason? There wasn't enough students in the low socio-economic/rural town to teach it. Their apirations were not likely to be for University. Even the lack of non-Asian languages being taught was mystifying.
I had to appeal to local Anglican Independent school that offered all of the above for a bursary so I could assure my daughters of choices in their education. This was a distressing time for me ideologically too.
When I told middle-class ALP leaning aquaintenances I was sending my girls to a private school they said, but state schools need parents like you!
As an ALP member this lack of sophisticated standards in educatation is distressing, and all I can do is petition within the party for improvements, so I applaude the authors petition for a parliamentary inquiry.
Queensland has had a long term culture of neglect by the rural National Party over decades. They feared educating the populace, hence the lack of specialist arts/science rooms, and censorship which has meant teachers have very little confidence in teaching these subjects.
My oldest daughter went to Qld Uni as a Science student with friends but they only did one year as their lecturers were boring. She went to a much more dynamic Nursing degree course at QUT, and is now working in Neurology with options for further professional courses.
My younger daughter is nearing the end of primary teaching degree, and as we near the struggle of financial stress due to supporting them through unpaid fulltime practicals of 6-8weeks we hope the State will appreciate their work.
We do what we can!

Dear Mr Reid

Hi. To what extent does the fault lie, if at all, with the brain drain from mathematics, across to investment banking for instance? Syd Morning Herald journo Lisa Pryor describes such a drain in her book "The Pin-Striped Prison" (2008), claiming that an Australian Academy of Science study found that "in the past decade, mathematical science depts in Aust's leading universities lost almost a third of their permanent academic staff...teachers without adequate maths training are teaching maths classes".

Hi John,

Kevin Donnelly here - another great article and on the money. As I outlined in Dumbing Down, those responsible for curriculum across Australia, especially Queensland, have a lot to answer for. The only problem is that most are still there and many are writing the new national curriculum! Outcomes based education might be a no go zone, but just wait for the next round of education fads and dumbed down experiments.

That's a worry, when Kev Donnelly agrees.

Kev's ideal of education seems to be the chalkntalk variety, again.

With a John Howard view of history where students learn 'facts' by rote and glorify the nation, where English is studying Chaucer only, and students get back into the world language, Latin.

No evaluation of the current school principals or 'edumacation' management teams is required, according to Kev, only 'back to the 1950s' when schools were so much 'better'.

Oh, and yet more power to principals to hire and fire... but who says the current principals have got a clue about what is required, apart from Kevin, Howard and probably Gillard, who wouldn't be too up-to-date with the power machinations within a school, not having any children in one to see how dysfunctional most schools really are.

Look, the text books publishers publish are rubbish, all too often.

I took issue with a Maths C Qld book and the publisher told me it was wrong because they had no editors who could do Maths C to edit it, but they put it out anyway because they had a 'suite' of maths books from Y8-12, and they needed to 'fill the market place'.

I contacted the Maths teachers assoc', they used the book in Brisbane but 'hadn't done anything about it'.

The junior science books from this publisher are all nonsense but all the schools here still use them, and across the state.

The QSA don't care, because they only look after the curriculum-not our problem. Ed Qld doesn't care because they don't publish books- it's up to the schools to get suitable materials, the QCPCA isn't interested, P&Cs only want to raise funds and evangelise with unqualified 'chaplains' and teachers shrug their shoulders because no one listens to what they say, including the QTU who do very little to promote education here.

I hope I am not too late with this post.

I notice John Ridd that in your numerous interesting articles you place great reliance on TIMSS. But I don't think you deal with PISA. I also note that you focus a great deal on mathematics. I have to say I have only read your articles quickly so I may have missed something.

I don't think you mention the important study, "the Queensland School Reform Longitudinal Study". I wonder why. What has happened to that study? I can find no recent reference to it on the web anyway.

Des Griffin points out that a study ‘the Queensland School Reform Longitudinal study’ seems to have vanished altogether. Most interesting because John Ridd in one or more of his articles (and in his PhD thesis ) refers to a Report called ‘Maths as a Foundation’. It was, I think, done within the old Board of Studies. It seems that this has also vanished of the face of the earth.


These disappearing pieces of research emphasise the need for a full blown Parliamentary Inquiry into education in Qld.



Des, the reason John Ridd emphasises Maths can be seen by clicking on ‘John Ridd’ to see a summary of his background experience and research.

Digging up the dark past there Des!

This research has been dropped like a hot potato simply because EQ uncovered what they do not ever want to deal with.

The single largest factor in improving schools is the quality of the classroom teacher.

To do that, and there are already good ones out there, would require an entire new managemnt structure and a whole new set of school principals, EDSs and REDs, to say nothing of a new DG and lesser DGs.

These people are 'dead men walking' when it comes to initiating even EQ current policies, never mind anything yet to arrive.

There was a great document, 'Productive Pedagogies', that appeared as a result of that study.... kept as hidden as possible.

No school paid any attention to it, no parents were shown it, no students were allowed to rate their teachers on its simple scales, 'good', poor, bloody hopeless.

Any policy or research that might improve EQ schools is killed off on purpose.

They'd rather waste money on Brisbane based 'colleges' of 'excellence' for 'high achievers' and leave the vast majority of students outside Brisbane, or with parents who regard boarding schools as a form of child abuse, to deal with the thousnads of level 2 and level 3 classroom teachers, overseen by principals who porbably wouldn't even manage to make those dismal standards.

But thanks for reminding us all Des.... just for a nano-second when that came out it looked as if EQ might have understood just how poor they are... and so they did, which is why it was killed off.

Adding some more to this thread

"Ms Bligh said Professor Geoff Masters from the Australian Council for Educational Research would undertake the review targeting areas of core literacy, numeracy and science.

The reality is that our students are not performing well enough,” Ms Bligh said."

http://www.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=61905

This is completely contrary to this statement from DETA

"Education Queensland delivers high quality education to more than 70 percent of all Queensland school students at prep, primary and secondary levels."

http://deta.qld.gov.au/

I think it will take more than a change in curriculum to fix the problems in QLD education.

DETA is now a huge bureaucracy that is mostly unaccountable to anyone, it consumes large amounts of public funding that is mostly spent on imports, it has little or no communication with the public, it lies to the public, and it has overseen the continuous decline in student performance across the state to the extent that performance in maths (which is one of the most important subjects) is now below world average.

Absolutely Vanna...100% percent, unless you are a sportsperson in Queensland in which case...110%... correct.

And of course, Anna Blight(t) was the previous 'edumacation' Minister, before Welliegogs took over and did nothing for all the time he was there.

Sadly, if the NLP were to win this election, EQ has every chance of becoming even worse, with their simple-minded fixation on 'tests' and 'back-to-the-future' philosophy.

We'd have more religion, and less of whatever doesn't help you to drive a tractor.... no 'book learning' anyway.

The truth is, the whole of Education Queensland is a giant 'Bundaberg Hospital', where whistleblowers are ignored, where the incompetent and indolent rise above their skill levels, and no-one outside in 'the general public' is the least bit concerned.

The two organisations that might be expected to make a move to improve schools, outside of the State Government, which is clearly unwilling to even try, the QTU and the QCPCA, are a major part of the problem too, neither groups wanting to rock-the-boat because that would upset their own comfortable existence and require them to perform....at least better than an organ grinders monkey might.

While at Bundaberg Hospital it is easy to see 'damaged' people, some dead, some just scared for life, it is not easy for the public/media to see the damage our underperforming schools are doing to students.

Jails fill with school failures, industry misses out on good employees, the whole community misses out on providing 'thinking' Queenslanders... just look at what passes for politicians here, never mind the punters who slavishly vote for their 'team', not able to work out the difference between politics and some tosspot sporting activity.

Write to Bligh(t) and let her know how hopeless she is, and ask her who she might park in that seat next, should she win....

She might surprise us all with some innovation... like putting a rock in the Ministerial seat.... and we might all be better off knowing the rock wouldn't even be pretending to do anything.

I've probably missed the boat by responding here, but I just saw mention of the good ol' Productive Pedagogies and thought I'd add my tuppence worth.

Interestingly, the PPs were a huge part of my teacher education at Griffith University ("GriffTAFE" to those UQ graduates who only survive a term or so before reassessing their career choices, but that's a whole different story). In my first years of teaching, I was constantly watched by admin, who demanded lesson plans complete with an analysis of the Productive Pedagogies incorporated in each lesson. Years later, as I am working with new teachers, I am constantly asked to reflect on my teaching with reference to the Productive Pedagogies. So in at least one school, they are alive and well.

I would hazard a guess that students and parents have been kept out of the loop partly because the pedagogies are difficult to understand. There is a trend in society for parents and bureaucrats to tell teachers how to do their jobs, and to critique them using methods they don't fully understand. We don't tell barristers, pilots or doctors how to do their jobs; we don't tell accountants how to do theirs, either. So why do we feel differently about teachers? If anyone can do it, then why do we spend four years at uni for the privilege?

As for those four years, I am quite happy to concede that Queensland is not turning out too many brilliant classroom practitioners. Many of the prac students I work with have been prepared poorly for the job; I am left wondering what they do at uni. Certainly there is little interest in becoming a teacher anymore, as OP scores for Education plummet. I could be wrong, but I'm sure I saw reference to a university that was letting people in with OPs of 21. How is Mr 21 meant to prepare Mr 1 or even Mr 15 for a successful adult life?

You are quite right about clients not assessing solicitors, patients their doctors and so on, good point.... however, the manual does provide some sort of snapshot of what to look for, and it doesn't include taking coffee cups into the clasroom, endless screaming at students, not being prepared for the lessons, discussing your domestic marital problems with students, asking students to hit one another and so on, so without being too scientific, it does provide a good guide for what makes a good teacher, an 'average' one (bit doubtful about that, but at least a non-malignant one)and a bloody hopeless one.

And yes, you are quite right about at least an OP20, up the coast above Brisbane I think last year.

Although, the OP score is no gauge of intelligence, or suitability to teaching, or any job at all.

It merely reflects a 'market' driven approach to filling not enough uni' places.

You only need an OP14 to do engineering, but an OP1 to do physio.

Physio does not warrant such a high level but lots of people think it is worth doing, so the score goes up.

Few people, apparently, think teaching is worth doing, so entry is rock bottom.

The folly of relying on 'markets' is not restricted to unbridled moneymaking, or rebadged greed.

The experience many of us have had with EQ is that they deny, lie, refuse to listen and ignore even the most obvious foolishness from within their ranks, and then moan if you don't thank them... for what precisely?

Then they close ranks and go quiet... and this is right up to the DGs office.

EQ ministers, including Bligh when she was there, make no attempt to get any value for our tax dollars and pretend they sit atop a stainless steel super efficient machine.

Not so, Bundaberg Hospital has a better reputation than EQ.

I guess my chief concern with OP standards for teaching is that OPs indicate success within a system of education. I would hazard a guess that the recipient of an OP 20 or thereabouts has experienced little success within that system but, in four years, will be allowed back into it as a leader.

You are right about the standards of some teachers, as well. I, for one, have never taken a drink into my classroom, but I know many teachers who wouldn't dream of going to class without one. And many who seem to think it is OK to have a heart-to-heart with their students about matters that really should be kept private.

Don't get me wrong - I'm a big fan of Productive Pedagogies. When we discuss them in meetings, we talk about them as things "every teacher knows (or should know)". Yet there are so many teachers out there who present pathetic lessons. Teachers who do not help kids in any way at all. Interestingly, without wanting to judge my colleagues, I would say that these hopeless practitioners are often the "favourites" of Year 8, 9 and 10 students. "Mr X doesn't make us line up." "Can't you give us an extension? Ms Y doesn't care when we hand our assignments in." "Mrs Z always takes us out for a game on Fridays, because she's cool. Why can't you be like her?" Thankfully, senior students tend to appreciate the teachers who actually educate them a bit.

Hmm . . . a bit of a vent there. I'm getting a bit off-track. The thing is, those of us who work ten hour days, six or seven days a week (for 25 hours' pay) receive no incentive whatsoever to continue striving for excellence. No extra money, no thanks from kids and even less from parents. They may appreciate our work, but they rarely tell us about it. Tacky as it sounds, I only keep going because I care about my students, want them to do well and couldn't live with myself if I got in the way of that.

Sorry Mr. Ridd,

you are only a little bit correct. After 35 plus years as a Maths teacher in QLD I have my own theory about the demise of education standards in our state.

When I first started teaching in state schools the English and humanities departments handed out assignment tasks and the Maths department coached students to pass tests. Very little teaching took place and a great deal of the learning was incidental.

If your English teacher thought you were attractive you may have received some assistance.

If you were in the Maths HOD’s class you usually got to practice very similar examples to the hard, process or application type questions just before the tests. One morning I walked in on the Maths HOD going over the test questions with selected students only minutes before the test was to start. (My unwanted transfer papers arrived before the end of term.)

The system was a joke. Young and/or enthusiastic educators who spoke up about the emperor’s lack of clothing were quickly transferred away from friends and family or given impossible and demoralising timetables.

The syllabi that school’s worked from all those years ago were rigorous and educationally sound. The problem was with the delivery. Something had to give.

Now we have poor syllabi and those enthusiastic individuals who would have been wonderful educators are working elsewhere.

Poor leadership and poor teaching have lead us to where we are now. I just hope it won’t take another 35 years to turn around.

So Mr. Ridd you are a little bit correct. Unfortunately, only a little bit correct is good enough these days in QLD schools.

Otokonoko & The Observer... both teachers by the sound of it, both offer something to this string that is appreciated here.

I have no idea if the 'old' curriculum was better or not or even if the new one is no good at all. When I've inspected what has been written by the QSA, in its broad and general terms, it generally sounds as if an intelligent person could make something of it.

When it arrives at the school though, maybe to cater for such a wide range of abilities, there seems to be not much left.... so the delivery of QSA hopes is very poor.

On top of that, poor school management, poor continuing training, no colleagiate atmosphere in schools, a desire to exclude parents and marginalise students... there ain't much left really is there?

As for the OP score being a reliable measure...hardly. It only works for compliant students who 'get on' with their work and meet the generally marginal expectations. For those students who are 'brighter' but who do not apply themselves for a range of reasons, they simply show the student has a low OP score.

I have come across young people with very low OP scores who are doing well at university, gaining GPAs of 6&7, who become motivated once outside the feudal constraints of our school system. Most people do not get 6&7 marks, so it's not a 'lowering of standards' going on here.

The OP system may, or may not, be better than other systems but it is no measure of ability, other than an ability to follow-the-leader.

Besides, with all those parents in private schools doing their childrens assignments.... what can it really measure?

I suspect there are myriad causes of 'poor education' today but I'd bet that the 19th century structure all schools have, public and private, does not help one bit.