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A mother's Gaza : Comments
By Judi Hall, published 20/1/2009From the calm of Australia how we can understand what it is like to live with neighbours like Hamas?
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Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 10:41:41 AM
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It strikes me there are only two solutions acceptable to Hamas; the Jews must depart Israel..or else be wiped out. I suppose a third possibility is a one-state Palestine, with the Jews living there (until wiped out or they depart?) but I haven't heard Hamas suggest this.
Could someone who supports Hamas let me know if I'm mistaken. Alternatively..that I'm correct. In the latter case it's pretty clear why the Israelis can't accept it..isn't it? Cheers. Posted by punter57, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 10:59:45 AM
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I too am a 'woman and a mother'.
However, I fully reject this outrageously callous piece of blame-the-victim rhetoric. I particularly reject the author's cynical cherry-picking from the Hamas Charter in order to vindicate Israel's cowardly CHOICE to hide behind its rampaging military arsenal, instead of going down the morally courageous path of negotiation. How dare the author presume to be writing in my name and in the name of women and mothers everywhere. Posted by SJF, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 11:39:46 AM
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Just wondering which parts of the blood-drenched Hamas Charter SJF thinks the author should have picked from? Could SJF possibly pick and publish for us some parts that do illustrate Hamas' committment to peace and human rights? Might take a while to find....
Posted by leah rachel, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 11:51:23 AM
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What a superb apologist judi Hall is for the murderous Israeli rogue state. Mark Regev, the Israeli government spokesman assures us that the IDF try to minimize civilian casualties but still has not given us the promised explanation of the precision-guided bombing of the Khiam, Lebanon UN observation post which killed unarmed peacekeepers even after 10 UN calls to warn the IDF (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5216230.stm). The blitzkrieg on Gaza violates international laws, dismembered kids strew schools and rubbled homes, bleeding civilians are left to haemorrhage in front of their kids and the IDF kill those who try to help. THIS is terrorism writ large and Israel must face in International War Crimes Tribunal. Olmert too is facing 6-10 years jail for fraud involving the Leumi Bank and Australian Frank Lowy. How reminiscent this is of Israel's founding fathers, Ben Gurion, Yitzhak Rabin, the Haganah and the Stern gang and their bombings and killings of British soldiers and Palestinians alike!
Posted by voltaire, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:18:29 PM
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Thanks Judi for bringing some sanity to OLO. The apologist for terrorism need to hate freedom in order to hide their socialistic dogmas. When we see them apologizing for the 9/11 attackers, the Bali bombings, the killing of Dutch journalists, the London bombings etc etc etc and then they insist that their 'academic view' of history is correct. And to think that many of these people are considered the 'experts'. Please consider becoming a journalist Judi so we get at least a little balance. However don't expect a job with our national broadcasters.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:24:30 PM
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As much as I respect the Jewish people, it's hard to take Israel's continued protestations of victimhood seriously, when one sees tanks and helicopter gunships lined up against slingshots and bottle rockets. Nor indeed when one compares the scorecards: 21 dead in 8 years versus 1,500 dead in just three weeks.
I have no sympathy for Hamas militants, none whatsoever, but any nation-state that wilfully stoops to such outrages as firing phosphorous shells into civilian hospitals has simply abandoned itself to barbarity. Posted by Clownfish, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:34:49 PM
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They just had to kill all those kids. They may have grown up to be anti-Semites.
Maybe those who don't like to hear what the immoral, neo-Stalinist , self-hating, gutter press have to say shouldn't selectively quote from it as the need arises while ignoring those inconvenient facts that don't fit the narrative of their personal own brand of hatred. Posted by wobbles, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:37:37 PM
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SJF
When asked if he could envision a 50-year hudna (cease-fire) with Israel, Hamas leader Nizar Rayyan responded, "The only reason to have a hudna is to prepare yourself for the final battle. We don't need 50 years to prepare ourselves for the final battle with Israel. Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God." There is enough hatre on both side that this was never going to finish ^ http://www.denverpost.com/harsanyi/ci_11410945 "Death to all Juice", Denver Post, (January 9, 2009). ^ http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/nizar_rayyan_of_hamas_on_gods.php “Nizar Rayyan of Hamas on God's Hatred of Jews”, The Atlantic, (January 2, 2009). Posted by dovif2, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:47:48 PM
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This is a very good article, which sums up Israel's dilemma because it describes so well the terror under which ordinary Israelis live and explains why Israel's democratically elected government had to take military action against Hamas rocket fire: The effect on its citizens was untenable. After concentrating on economic sanctions and avoiding a large scale offensive for quite a few years, military action by Israel became inevitable.
Israel, despite all the bluster, does negotiate with Hamas, indirectly, through Egyptian mediators and that is how the ceasefires that were previously in place came about. It was Hamas that decided unilaterally not to renew the 6 month ceasefire in a desperate ploy to rebuild its popularity, which is at rock bottom due to sanctions imposed on its borders by a neighbour that Hamas openly seeks to destroy and terrorise. Sadly Hamas probably still has a future in Gaza because its ability to terrorise its own people remains intact despite an humiliating military defeat, which it claims as a victory. While Hamas is in control I see little hope for Gazans who are cynically manipulated by their rulers into abject suffering. If this war means that Israelis are able to stop living in the shadow of terror, scurrying in an out of rocket shelters, then it has one positive outcome. If it results in the demise of Hamas, that is another because for the residents of Gaza, their fate is in the hands of their rulers. Posted by Chatoul, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:54:54 PM
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As well quote from the Hamas charter, one might offer such quotes as:
"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." - Rabbi Ya'acov Perin "[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs." - Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin Obviously there are extremists on both sides. It's just that one side has built a bigger mound of dead women and children. Posted by Clownfish, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 1:03:20 PM
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How nice of Israel to withdraw from Gaza (which it occupied illegally)and then put an economic strangle-hold on it.
How nice of Israel to sign an agreement with the USA to prevent 'smuggling" of arms into Gaza at the same time as 'importing' 5,000 (or was it 50,000?) tons of American armaments into Israel. It is unfortunate that 20 Israelis were killed by rockets in the last 7 years as a result of their daily humiliation and imprisonment of Palestinians in their apartheid state. That is not an excuse to slaughter 1200 people including 100s of children and babies, and maim 5000 more. Do they think that is goingt to help relations with their neighbour in future? I await to see whether Israel will pay the $1.6b, just to put the infrastructure back. I await to see what the International Criminal Court will do with the extensive evidence of war crimes presented to it. For those interested in persuading Israel to move from its morally bankrupt position, see boycottisrailigoods.com. The Israeli bar-code starts with 729. Posted by Stan1, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 2:20:50 PM
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Clownfish
Personal opinion is not like a charter of an organisation. A charter of an organisation is the principle of what an organisation believes in, ie all the members believe in it, as do all its supporters If you interview everyone in Australia, you will probably get enough quotes to say all Australian hates (Jews/Arabs/Asian/Greek/Italian/Aussies) There is significant difference between the believe of individuals and an organisation like Hamas Posted by dovif2, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 2:25:40 PM
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dovit2, Clownfish quoted a principle Israeli rabbi and the late prime minister of Israel.
These people where Israeli leaders, representing the people of Israel, and to read their comments one must ask how democratic is Israel. Runner, you are a "christian"?, then please explain how you can condone, the slaughter of hundreds of innocent children in this brutal attack. Leigh, you state you are not religous, though your extreme right of centre beliefs, appears to cloud your respect for human lives. If Israel controls all of Palestine, I can assure you that there will not be a return of John Howard. Posted by Kipp, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 3:47:55 PM
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Judi Hall
You summed up in this one article what I have failed to put in words. Disregard all the posts that oppose your beautiful and stirring article as the answers of those who disagree are without foundation, lack knowledge of history (or ignore history altogether)and are filled with hatred. I hope that you consider to make this an open letter to news outlets, especially those of the BBC, SBS, Time,Reuters etc. who consistently fail to show cause why they are so biased against Israel in their opinions. Ubique Posted by ubique, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 4:07:11 PM
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Kipp
You ask 'Runner, you are a "christian"?, then please explain how you can condone, the slaughter of hundreds of innocent children in this brutal attack. I don't condone the slaughter of any innocent children or adults. More to the point how do you defend a bunch of terrorist who cowardly use women and children as human shields in order to win sympathy from the West. Hamas hate everything about the West (except our aid) and brainwash kids from a young age to be suicide bombers. I would hardly call defending oneself from these terrorist slaughtering innocent children. Unfortunately we murder the unborn at a much higher rate than Hamas itself. Posted by runner, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 4:53:19 PM
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Good article, says it all very succintly.
I have no strong sympathy either way but the abject cowardice of Hamas is breathtaking, starting a war, (and being annoyed it took so long for the Israelis to respond), then not showing up to fight them as promised "to the last drop of blood". Seems Hamas expected the international liberal, bleeding hearts to step in and stop the Israelis almost immediately. The Hamas fighters, (you can hardly call them that can you), must be impressed with their leaders who hang out in Syria instructing them to fight to the death.(/sarc) To all the posters who demand Israel or the international community rebuild the Gaza Strip, how about Hamas using some of the money they use to arm themselves with THOUSANDS of missiles, to improve the lives of "their" people. Do you know what a missile costs? It's not peanuts. So where does Hamas funding come from? This has been a disaster for Hamas not because of lives lost, but because they have been shown to be the cowards they are and not the brave fighters they claim to be, it's a bit different to bullying women and children isn't it boys? I heard today 80% of Gazans rely on international aid for food, (even when not irritating their very powerful, but fortunately tolerant neighbour) so where is this great benevelent government Hamas supposedly supply - Hamas are just bullying parasites, using Palestinians as shields. If Hamas used the same tactics with Syria or Jordan or anyone else in the region, they would be wiped out overnight. Posted by rpg, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 6:58:51 PM
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About the negative comments: people say they care about the Palestinians, but they rarely mean what they say. For decades the Palestinians have been used as the "whipping post" in order to denigrate the Israelis - or more accurately, the Jews. If those that have written here - even going as far as drawing Frank Lowey - the filthy rich Australian Jew into it !?!? - are not interested in being advocates for the Palestinians; if they did, they would have taken up on some of the points that you made, such as the use of civilians as human shields, purposefully storing arms in sensitive places such as mosques, hospitals and UN schools. As well as encouraging their children to detonate themselves for their own selfish ends. When Israel withdrew from Gaza - unilaterally - in essence complying to the UN resolution that "ordered" them to do just that - Abbas made a speech in an abandoned settlement saying 'not is the time to put your guns away; now is the time to build'. But instead, they threw away their shovels and ploughs, and bought tonnes and tonnes of weapons. Denied their children their childhood in their hate indoctrination and eventually, on Christmas Eve lobbed 50 rockets into Israel, and on Christmas day, lobbed 80 rockets into Israel - so drawing the very response that they wanted - an invasion of Gaza. So Hamas touted that Gaza would become the graveyard of the Israelis - Bad luck guys! But what about your people? You simply don’t care: and neither do those that can quote every harsh word uttered from the mouth of a Jew, but have absolutely no understanding of the real nightmare that the Palestinians face: Hamas.
Posted by Vicmister, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 7:12:59 PM
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There are certainly extremists on both sides of this debate and there are mothers and children on both sides. It would be equally awful to be an Israeli family living in fear of being bombed as it would be to live in Palestine under Hamas and face the retribution of Israel.
The problems of the Middle East are insurmountable and the flames of discontent and hate are fuelled not only by religion but by dispossession. It would be difficult for the Jews to depart Israel just as it would be for the English to leave Northern Ireland or for Australia or America to hand back land to its indigenous people. Regardless of the history and the injustice to the Palestinian people with the world advocating the settlement of Israel, Israel is here to stay. The real question is whether there can ever be peace and some form of give and take on both sides to ensure that the citizens of Israel and of Palestine can live in harmony and peace if not with each other, by each other's side. One solution would be to go back to the original UN resolution that madated definite Arab and Jewish states, one area for the Palestinians and one for the Israelis. Both states would have access to the sea (a port) and a share of arable land and water. After the Arab war in opposition to the formation of Israel, the Arab state was never realised. It is too late to talk about hindsight and indeed lack of foresight and while this solution would not be easy it is a possibility and one that would see a fairer distribution of land. It would involve an agreement between the two nationalities, mass movement of people, a change in mindset and probably an element of force to ensure the extremist elements are hindered in resistance. Is this solution or one like it any more unthinkable than the current situation. Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 7:34:23 PM
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Blimey! Some weirdo views popping up now.
Get back to basics and some facts. Was 6000 dead and wounded Palestinians (largely women and children) a reasonable response to 20 Israelis killed by rockets in the last 7 years? Skip all the crap. Yes or No. Posted by Stan1, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 7:39:36 PM
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Stan1
If your talking purely numbers of course the answer is no. An astute reader in our local paper compared the attack by Israel to a similar scenario that of the English mounting missiles on Ireland after a spate of bombings by the IRA in London. Of course this did not happen and would have merely inflamed the situation. Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 7:54:43 PM
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Stan 1 ..
Blimey! Some weirdo views popping up now. Get back to basics and some facts. Is it acceptable to fire rockets, non stop for years at your neighbour trying to kill them ? (Just because they weren't successful at killing, they certainly were successful at terror weren't they?) Skip all the crap. Yes or No So you judge conflict by how many were killed when and under what circumstances, correct? So if Hamas had bigger rockets, like the ones they were starting to use and could kill more Israeli from a distance - would that be OK, would you then criticise them? Skip all the crap. Yes or No? Or would you then fall into the wierdo views catagory? Skip all the crap. Yes or No? Are you an apologist for terrorists? Skip all the crap. Yes or No? Posted by rpg, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 7:55:23 PM
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Jodi Darling,
As a person who speak arabic, and love follow the middle east (not just Israel and its mates ;-)), I am sorry to tell you, that until Muslim will keep killing other Muslim in the middle east the Jews and the Christen (who are almost eliminited in Iraq and are running away from Egypt); why they should treat you better then them self. Every time a new group go to power, they start to exploite other groups. It is nothing against you (or Israel) personally. the main problem that I can see, and I realy hope it will change, is the they always see what wrongs the other side did. They never try to understand where did they go wrong and how they influence the other side...their is a word for it, REPONSIBILITY ! Which they dont like to practice. Sorry Hope that help Posted by sir james, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 9:29:53 PM
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I find the implied sexism of the piece interesting.
Mothers and children are the subject of concern. Does that mean that every father in Gaza and the relevant parts os Israel supports either Hamas's or the Israeli actions? Does that mean that far more women are opposed to the violence than men so the lives of men are less important or less deserving of sympathy than that of women? If that's what's implied where is the evidence? If it's not implied then why no mention of concern for the innocent men caught up in this conflict who also feel the pain of threat to themselves and their loved ones? Is it a reflection of a lack of concern for the lives of innocent men caught up in a war not of their choosing or a play on the sexist attitudes about men still to prevelant in society. R0bert Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 10:10:17 PM
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Stripped of its freight of rhetoric and emotion, this article boils down to "If there is a solution... it lies in the defeat of ... Hamas... rejection of all peace offers and methods ... fighting Hamas and negotiating with Fatah" (edited to get rid of all the superfluous guff).
It has been suggested that in the 1970s Israel encouraged the establishment of what became Hamas as a counterweight to the left-wing secular Fatah faction of the PLO. For details see here: http://www.upi.com/Security_Industry/2002/06/18/Analysis_Hamas_history_tied_to_Israel/UPI-82721024445587/2/ I find it astonishing that Judi Hall can laud the peace-loving Fatah, when Israel spent decades denouncing the PLO (and Fatah leader Yasser Arafat) as fanatical terrorists who they couldn't negotiate with. So repeat after me: "We are now at war with Eastasia (Hamas). We have always been at war with Eastasia (Hamas)." Posted by Johnj, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 10:21:50 PM
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Isn't it amazing that Israel with the best US weapons technology and military grade GPS which, under the clear skies of the Middle East gives unerring accuracy, cannot avoid bombing schools, hospitals, apartment blocks, ambulances and UN facilities in Gaza and Lebanon? Olmert says the bombing of the UN HQ in Gaza city was "a grave (sic!) mistake".
Given that the technology works and the IDF are superbly well trained, we must conclude that this total disregard for international law was deliberate. Imagine if Hamas had access to the same $2.4 billion of US annual weapons aid as Israel plus 200 nuclear bombs with which to threaten the region. Instead of 13 Israelis killed since 2001 the death toll would be astronomical (always assuming that Hamas matched the Israelis' blood lust); for every Israeli death about 100 Palestinians are killed. Posted by voltaire, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 10:49:16 PM
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Many will simply ignore this but in October 2007 an Israeli correspondent suggested that the reason for the ongoing Israeli sanctions was to provoke Palestinian militants into a military response.
"As such, the real aim of this effort is twofold: to attempt a new form of "escalation" as a response to aggression from Gaza, before Israel embarks on a major military operation there; and to prepare the ground for a more clear-cut isolation of the Gaza Strip - limiting to an absolute minimum Israel's obligation toward the Palestinians there." "This will be a "dirty war," very aggressive, that will have scenes of destruction similar to southern Lebanon in 2006. The sole exception: unlike in Lebanon, the population there has nowhere to run." "Defense sources say the sanctions will lead the militants to intensify their attacks to show that they do not succumb to Israeli pressure. And because the sanctions will not be severe - so as not to create a humanitarian crisis - they will not be effective. It is actually expected that the gasoline shortage will have a greater effect than the disruptions in the electricity supply - which normally happens because of equipment breakdowns." http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/917385.html The timing? Probably due to that vague period between Bush and Obama being in control. One has no authority and the other can stay non-committal. There was talk about Israel using this period to attack Iran but they were specifically warned off this option by the US. Oh, and rpg - for the record, the Hamas rockets weren't "non-stop for years". In spite of the ongoing sanctions, they only resumed after an Israeli military incursion into Palestinian territory and the first rockets that were fired didn't actually come from Gaza but from the West Bank. Posted by wobbles, Wednesday, 21 January 2009 1:21:28 AM
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Leah Rachel
'Could SJF possibly pick and publish for us some parts that do illustrate Hamas' committment to peace and human rights? Might take a while to find....' No problem. Here's a few ... 'Man is a strange and miraculous being, made out of a handful of clay and a breath of soul... So, books, articles, publications, religious exhortations, epistles, songs, poems, hymns, plays, and the like, if they possess the characteristics of Islamic art, have the requisites of ... a continuous nurturing in the pursuance of the journey, and of relaxing the soul.' (Article 19) 'Social solidarity consists of extending help to all the needy, both materially and morally... The members of Hamas must share with the people its joys and sorrows, and adopt the demands of the people and anything likely to fulfill its interests and theirs. When this spirit reigns, congeniality will deepen, cooperation and compassion will prevail ...' (Article 21) '[Hamas] values every kind word, every devoted effort and every commendable endeavor. It closes the door before marginal quarrels, it does not heed rumors and biased statements, and it is aware of the right of self-defense.' (Article 25) 'Jihad means not only carrying arms and denigrating the enemies. Uttering positive words, writing good articles and useful books, and lending support and assistance, all that too is Jihad in the path of Allah ...' (Article 30) 'Wisdom is roaming around, and the Believer ought to grasp it wherever he can find it.' (Article 24) Get the picture? The object of this exercise is to show that selective cherry-picking of quotes can make any piece of writing look either evil or good. Posted by SJF, Wednesday, 21 January 2009 8:26:06 AM
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>>Isn't it amazing that Israel with the best US weapons technology and military grade GPS which, under the clear skies of the Middle East gives unerring accuracy, cannot avoid bombing schools, hospitals, apartment blocks, ambulances and UN facilities in Gaza and Lebanon? Olmert says the bombing of the UN HQ in Gaza city was "a grave (sic!) mistake".
Given that the technology works and the IDF are superbly well trained, we must conclude that this total disregard for international law was deliberate.<< voltaire, Besides the well-publicised fact that the UN building got hit (about the only way the risk-averse UN could ever be prodded into making a statement against Israel), I saw on a news report the bombing of a building in Gaza with it in ruins and neighbouring "non-targets", including shops and a children's playground, indirectly badly damaged by the blast. So the GPS technology is certainly accurate enough. My guess is that the Israeli airforce is not using the right size ordinance for the job. They probably have a warehouse full of old bombs, mainly designed for other types of warfare, that they want to get rid of. Israel's commanders would know what sort of damage the bombs would do in a very built-up area. So, they are being either careless, reckless or maybe even deliberate. Posted by RobP, Wednesday, 21 January 2009 8:44:43 AM
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SJF
The very idea that because there are a few lovey dovey words in the Hamas Charter, that that their presence somehow cancels out the other odious and anti semitic bile, is just rubbish. One clause doesnt diminish or expand the other. Each Clause stands on its own merits/demerits, and existence of what you call cherry picking doesnt change the fact that the others exist and are part of the Charter Further the foundational basis of the Hamas Charter is the Koranic trilogy, whose violence and hatred for the kuffar and all things jewish is well documented. Try this for size http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/28244/sec_id/28244. Or just look at one Hadith The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim). The implication is clear: Allah promised that the Jews will be murdered, and the Hamas "aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take." The intention is pretty dam clear Posted by bigmal, Wednesday, 21 January 2009 5:41:00 PM
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rpg
You say: • “Is it acceptable to fire rockets, nonstop for years at your neighbour trying to kill them? (Just because they weren't successful at killing, they certainly were successful at terror weren't they?) Skip all the crap. Yes or No “ Yes. It is acceptable to fire rockets in defence of your homeland which has been illegally and brutally occupied against UN directions when you haven’t got ships, tanks, aeroplanes and the other high tech ammunitions, paid for with $2.4b annually from America. • “So you judge conflict by how many were killed when and under what circumstances, correct? So if Hamas had bigger rockets, like the ones they were starting to use and could kill more Israeli from a distance - would that be OK, would you then criticise them? Skip all the crap. Yes or No? “ This question is loaded and hypothetical and therefore difficult to answer simply, rpg. I was actually referring to the well accepted legal principle of proportionality, comparing the 20 Israelis dead from rockets in 7 years and the 6000 Palestinian casualties including women, children, and (if there is a God I hope s/he forgives you) babies, in 3 weeks. • “Are you an apologist for terrorists? Skip all the crap. Yes or No?” I was thinking that the Israelis were the terrorists and the Palestinians were the freedom fighters. So NO, I am not an apologist for Israeli terror of this kind and magnitude. Israel is morally bankrupt and its actions are self defeating. The 6000 extended families of the Palestinian dead and injured are going to remember Israel’s brutality and arrogance for generations. Posted by Stan1, Wednesday, 21 January 2009 7:53:23 PM
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bigmal
'The very idea that because there are a few lovey dovey words in the Hamas Charter, that that their presence somehow cancels out the other odious and anti semitic bile, is just rubbish.' I was not 'cancelling out' anything. I was responding to Leah Rachel's challenge to me to 'pick and publish for us some parts that do illustrate Hamas' committment to peace and human rights'. I stated in my reply that I was deliberately cherry-picking to obtain a certain outcome. Besides, what is so unthinkable about the prospect that Hamas has a human side? After all, Hamas comprises three parts - political, military and humanitarian. This is typical of most liberation struggles throughout history. Once the oppressor finally gives up on trying to achieve a military victory over the liberation struggle and starts negotiating, the military arm of the liberation struggle eventually wanes - as does its militant rhetoric. And as for that scriptural quote about the Day of Judgement when Muslims kill all Jews hiding behind trees and stones ... give us a break! Is the Israeli foreign ministry offering a prize in one of its 'hasbara' kits for every 50 times a propaganda troll posts this quote? [http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/09/israel-foreign-ministry-media] The quote is pretty innocuous stuff - not that far removed from any militant good-and-evil rhetoric throughout history ... from 'kill the filthy Hun' to 'God for Harry, England and St George'. As I said on another Middle East thread, the Hamas Charter was drawn up in the aftermath of the brutal put-down of the peaceful First Intifada, leaving thousands of Palestinian youths dead. Little wonder that the Hamas Charter writers quoted some Jew-hating rhetoric from their scriptures to make their point. Is it any less dangerous than Israel's scriptural arrogance that God made the Jews the Chosen People or the Old Testament's Jehovah ordering the Jews to massacre entire cities? Posted by SJF, Thursday, 22 January 2009 7:57:14 AM
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SJF
The Hamas Charter is full of the hatred of non believers and jews, and its not just a few passing references either. In any case, just how delusional and screwed up are they when they also quote the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as though it was some holy scripture, when the world knows it for what it is. A work of fiction for gods sake. It doesnt get any more stupid than that. Posted by bigmal, Thursday, 22 January 2009 8:34:11 PM
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bigmal
I’m not going to be drawn into an extended volley exchange with you on the rights and wrongs of the Hamas Charter. Neither am I interested in defending the antipathy towards Jews or its rejection of secularism as contained in some parts of the Charter. My aim was to reject non-contextual, repetitive and selective quoting of the Charter to achieve the desired outcome of portraying Hamas as motivated purely by Jew hatred and/or fundamentalism. You can serve anti-Jew/fundy quotes and counter-quotes across the net all day long – but without the critical context of Palestinian dispossession and persecution by successive Israeli administrations or the humanitarian wretchedness that causes people to seek comfort in religion, such an exchange is both misleading and meaningless. Posted by SJF, Friday, 23 January 2009 8:44:16 AM
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So Jewish mothers have a stronger emotional connection to their children than Palestinian, is that what the author is saying?
I loathe propaganda pieces like this, they seem ridiculous, and out of date. When it comes to mother-love, the universality of it compels us to count the number of dead. Proportionality counts if we are to focus on the suffering of mourning mums. In any case, I agree with Robert - men's lives count, too. Posted by floatinglili, Sunday, 25 January 2009 2:01:04 AM
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Floatinglili
I agree. But I doubt if it’s a question of valuing the deaths of women and children in war over the deaths of men. Quite the opposite. War deaths and casualties among women and children are ruthlessly exploited for propaganda purposes while the war is raging. (This essay is a particularly reprehensible example.) However, it’s the combat deaths of men in war that form the overwhelming basis for public remembrance long after the war is over. It’s men who get the shrines, the parades, the medals, the war movies and general adulation – not the women and children (and civilian men) who bear the brunt of aerial bombings, landmines, war rape, war related diseases, famines and refugee dislocations. With the notable exception of the Holocaust, how many shrines are there to the women, children and civilian men who died in wars? Worldwide, you’d be flat out counting them on the fingers of one hand. Posted by SJF, Sunday, 25 January 2009 10:04:39 AM
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Well done Judi Hall, and Leigh - always good to read from you
Posted by camo, Tuesday, 27 January 2009 10:24:09 AM
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Israel has precision-guided missiles which they have used against single moving cars.They are unerringly accurate. In Lebanon, Israel bombed a UN observation post killing all multinational personnel, despite being given the GPS coordinates and being given 10 warnings that their bombs were landing closer and closer. Ambulances with rooftop markings were also blasted. Mark Regev promised a full investigation and report but we have had neither and, to its shame, the international community have not pursued Israel for war crimes.
In Gaza we see Israel once again targeting the UN; this time its schools and warehouse. Olmert, facing 7 years jail for swindling, claims "it was a grave (sic) mistake". This is enough to designate Israel a rogue state but there's more. White phosphorous and DIME weapons are used against humans. Doctors at Shifa hospital say they have never seen injuries like the ones they are now encountering. Legs are surgically removed by Dense Inert Metal Explosives set to detonate at knee level. "It's like they want to make us a handicapped nation", said the doctor. Burns smouldering through to the bone, all grist to the Israeli holocaust machine. These are war crimes typical of a psychopath, they put monsters like Mengele to shame and plunge Israel's moral standing to the lowest blood- filled cess pits. The world must act to bring Israel to a Nuremburg-style trial in the Hague: justice and civilisation demand it! Posted by voltaire, Tuesday, 27 January 2009 3:21:26 PM
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Voltaire.
I agree with your assessment. If Israel is allowed to do what it has done in Gaza recently, and in other places previously, without being brought to justice, there is a good chance it will repeat its atrocities in the future. If we are to believe their propaganda, Israel has nothing to fear from facing an international court. We should all pressure our politicians to make sure this happens. Posted by Stan1, Tuesday, 27 January 2009 5:25:16 PM
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stan1 (voltaire)
'If Israel is allowed to do what it has done in Gaza recently, and in other places previously, without being brought to justice, there is a good chance it will repeat its atrocities in the future.' There is much more than a good chance, especially after the next election in which the favourite to win is the ultra-right hardliner Netanyahu. Also, according to one Israeli-born Australian activist, there is little interest in Gaza among Israelis at present, as their eyes are set on a much bigger prize. I quote: 'An Israeli friend told me in disgust the other day, that there is an atmosphere of ‘national orgasm’ in Israel about the prospect of attacking Iran. While people are being bombed in Gaza, all Israelis can talk about is the coming attack on Iran.' http://www.australiansforpalestine.com/palestine/arch_art/dec08/ABARBARNEL_israels_trauma.html Exaggeration or not, there has to be some truth in this. Israel continues to raise the bar on what are already astonishing levels of aggression that it has been allowed to get away with within full view of the world community. Unless world opinion and the US-led West can bring Israel into line diplomatically and/or legally, it's almost a certainty that an attack on Iran (with carefully staged 'provocation' of course) will be the natural progression from this. Posted by SJF, Wednesday, 28 January 2009 9:12:58 AM
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Yes. And that’s the main difference between the Hamas terrorists and their supporters in Gaza and the Israelis who have continually tried to live and let live. Yet the totally immoral people who side with Hamas against Israel, and moan and groan about Hamas supporters being killed don’t see the difference.
This is an excellent article from the heart. But, it will make little difference to the neo-Stalinists and self-haters who clutter up OLO and the gutter press. I doubt very much if they would be moved even by the author’s reference to the Bali bombing and the murder of our own by mad dogs similar to Hamas.