All sensible points from Bernie. Would be interesting to see his solutions to these problems. Obviously retribution is a necessary part of justice. We don't want crims being offered a life of restful & catered-for seclusion as a means of deterrence. Punishment has to be sufficiently tough & harsh to deter. I'm sure Bernie would agree.

And would Bernie's solution meet all 4 aims of punishment: deterrence, retribution, community protection & rehab? Obviously there were many others who went through Grafton, had similar experiences, but made better decisions than Crump & co.

As Bernie himself says, he did his crime out of greed & makes no excuses for it whatsoever. Bottom line is people do have choices and when they make the wrong decisions, there have to be sobering consequences.

Bernie knows better than most because he has been there done that. He would have mixed with the baddest. So he must have some theories on how best to deter crim behaviour. We havn't the time to wait unil all of society's ills are cured before we implement an ideal system. We have bad people out there now (for all sorts of reasons) who have to be dealt with in the here and now. I'm sure there are many wicked crimes that can't be explained away by the 'Graftons'. A penny for your thoughts, Bernie.

I'm a supporter of harsh, but swift (not the never-ending, mind-dumbing experiences of Grafton) punishment (eg Singapore - yes, it's not perfect) with the emphasis on retribution & deterrence and protection rather than rehab. For me, the rights of society take precedence over the rights of the individual. Rehab is good, but even if they will not reoffend (& there is no guarantee), the punishment still has to fit the crime and be carried through to completion. That's my definition of justice, and I'm sure the vast majority of people agree. This is what people like Peter McInerney don't recognise & never will.

Obviously you have never been to prison or been arrested by police. I know what Bernie is talking about. Maximum does make men worse. I spent six months in Maitland 'Tracks' for setting fire to Maitland Gaol back in 75. Not my best time in life, but there were procedures that needed to be complied with or else. I get a kick out of these people who write their stuff in forums and have no concept of what they are really talking about. I am not in the class of Bernie or men like him but prison can make a man something he never intended to be. You talk about the punishment fitting the crime and thats well and good but you best tell that to the screws who run the prisons. Somebody forgot to tell them. You want justice to be swift but harsh and that for you the rights of society has precedence over the rights of the individual? You are obviously not in the real world. Next time you are at a nightclub or pub and get into a fight and accidently knock the guy to the ground and he cracks his head and dies tell you story of wanting swift but harsh justice to the judge and tell him that the rights of society has precedence over the individual. He will put you in a cell for the insane.
Criminals have rights as humans too, even if I dont agree with the crimes some have committed. Being brutalised because Corrective Services says its ok is not right.