Thanks Diocletian

A couple of points. This quote from Thomas Friedman (a columnist with the New York Times) in his book The Lexus and the Olive Tree seems to encapsulate the argument:

"The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist.... McDonald's cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas, the designer of the U.S. Air Force F-15. And the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley's technologies to flourish is called the U.S. Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps."

What is Iraq about then if not an attempt by the US state to enable US capitalism to continue its dominant global economic role, dominate the Middle East and control oil flows to possible global competitors like China? And show China the US state is prepared to use its overwhelming military power to enable its free marketeers to stay top dogs economically?

Marx called the capitlaist state the executive committee of the bourgeoisie. Crude but it does contain a useful truth.

As to Russia and the idea of complementing peaceful markets, since when has the establishment of capitalism been peaceful? It has always been first a war on its own people and then in expansionist mode a war on other peoples. The capitalist state carries this out.

Have a read if you're interested of Marx in Capital when he talks about the history of capitalism being written in blood. The descriptions there are eerily similar to the butchery of Stalin in setting up State captialism in Russia.

Marx also saw the state as a reflection of class differences. He argued it would wither away when class divisions disappeared.

The working class can build on capitalism and create a new world where the economic crisis is consigned to a museum and war and want becomes a memory.

They could John, but they never have,in any of their revolutions where they promised to do just that for the people. The trouble is as soon as they gain access to the key to the room where all the treasure is kept they become just like the capitalists they deposed and start stuffing their own pockets with as much as they can and the people are left wondering why they are no better off after the revolution.

Human nature will never allow freedom from war and want but it's a lovely idea. At this point in human evolution it is light years away

So John, your aspiration then is for a bloody revolution where the "working class" attacks it's own democratically elected goverment to impose an undemocratic socialist single party state?

Thats an aweful thing to aspire to. Im guessing that the idea of a socalist party being elected democratically by a majority of the "working class" has been examined and discarded as even more unlikely.

Socialism is a perfect form of goverment for a perfect society of perfect people. It is an ideology of idealism that is understandably attractive to children and students. Grown adults such as yourself should have long since seen through what is a perfect plan for an imperfect world.

Why does capitalism work but socialism not in reality? Because in reality the proportion of people who will be fully productive without some recognition of their extra contribution is close enough to zero that the rest are part of the rounding error. Thus in a socialist system productivity is restricted to that of the lowest common denominator. From everyone what they can, to everyone what they need becomes from everyone the least required, to everyone what is available - the basis of the economic chasm between capitalist and socialist economies.

An otherwise intelligent, mature and experienced adult should be able to see this, but you are still a self described member of the "revolutionary left". I wonder if you believe in socalism because you honestly think it is a viable alternative, or if you adhere simply because it is how you define yourself and your life. I suspect the latter.

“How sick? Here in Australia unemployment is 4.5 per cent. It will increase, but by how much? A lot, I would suggest. It is a slow train coming, but it is coming.”

Mixed metaphor… interesting… will the “sick” be unable to crawl away from the path of the “slow train”?…

it depends which is the slower of the two I guess.

“As Lenin said, capitalism can survive any crisis if workers are prepared to bear whatever burden the bosses impose on them.”

Ah I love quoting Lenin, almost as much as dearest Margaret T.

Another Lenin quote which needs to be considered is

“While the State exists, there can be no freedom. When there is freedom there will be no State.”

And another

“A lie told often enough becomes the truth”

But to Margaret

“There is no such thing as Society. There are individual men and women, and there are families.”

“Now I have little knowledge of the US but suspect….”

Maybe some research would help, it generates more “credibility” than the idealistic whimsy of the left.

I lived in USA… I have some knowledge first hand and can check plenty out due to the capitalist innovation called the internet and all those free-enterprise chatrooms,

Passy, you need to understand the difference of relationship between US Union and capitalism accord versus the European/Australian Union / capitalism confrontation. Basically the US Unions have never seen themselves at war with the owners of production facilities.

Now more propositions
“There is another factor in all of this - the weakness of the radical left. “

And

“a mass revolutionary movement”

It seems to me, you like talking to yourself.

The reason a mass revolutionary movement does not exist is because of the weakness of the radical left.

And the reason for the weakness of the radical left is many people can now read and understand the errors of the past sufficiently to have abandoned the lies and terror of Lenin and the left.

Back to the slow train of capitalism… compares to the stationary (stagnant) train of socialism.

Passy,

Presumably you are claiming that boom and bust are essential characteristics of a capitalist economy,or, that a depression is inevitable.I don't agree, if I remember anything about Keynesian economics, government intervention can serve to smooth out the cycle. Competent regulation would certainly have prevented this stuff-up in the first place. I agree with your remarks as to the relationship between state and market, unfortunately in a crisis it's socialised losses and private profits.

The big change in the relationship between the state and the markets is that the state is no longer primarily a mitigating force between the excesses of exploitation and those being exploited. Instead, it has become the handmaid of industry, providing - or attempting to provide - the credibility and validation that industry will never have among citizens. It validates exploitation through spin, subsidies and regulatory legerdemain. Any time you hear government proclaim 'rigorous controls'you know you (and your planet) are in trouble. The response to the financial crisis (and the lack of response to climate change) highlight the true role of the state: To serve business and keep the citizens convinced that by voting once every 3 years there is actually a democratic system at work. Capitalism is not yet dead, but it and democracy both are rapidly apporaching bankruptcy...In an economic system that continues to believe that endless growth in a finite system is possible, bankruptcy will inevitably come. Unfortunately, the state will do everything possible to make sure that business is insulated first and that citizens pay.