Forgive me if I am a little confused, Rhiann.

>>Many Christians don’t believe in life after death – I’m one, Peter Sellick is another<<

Maybe it's just me, and the fact that I find Sells rather opaque, but this would seem to an outsider to turn the New testament on its head.

Where does John 14:2-3 fit into all this?

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also"

Or John 17:3?

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Or John 3:16?

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Perhaps it was just that John had the whole messaging thing wrong?

Would it not be better if you all got together and decided exactly what it is that Christians believe and don't believe.? It is horrendously difficult for us atheists to keep up with your "make it up as you go" approach.

It would also help if you encouraged Peter to write a form of English that is accessible to the somewhat meaner intelligences about him.

"The gospel does not save us for the afterlife but transforms life in lived time by opposing the automatic thinking generated by our evolved minds. Rather than affirm nature, the gospel actively opposes it when it suffocates love and dehumanises the neighbour. This is yet another reason why natural theology must be opposed, because it asserts the order of loveless evolution, of the beast in us. To be created in the image of God is to be created as reflective, critical beings that are able to transcend their biological determinism by countering the impulses that arise in their minds."

Yep, that should do it.

Pericles,
Many theologians see “kingdom of God,” “father’s house” and similar references as talking about this world, not the next.

John uses the phrase “eternal life” mainly as a descriptor of the life of faith, which consists primarily in knowing and being known by God through Jesus – not the life after death (see especially 17:2 3). He uses it a lot – see 3:16, 3:36, 4:14, 4:36, 5:24, 39-40, 6:27, 40, 47; 6:54, 63, 68; 10:28; 12:25. 50; 17:2-3. While in some of these passages you could argue that “eternal life” means “life after death,” in most it clearly doesn’t. A similar use is in Acts 13:36. John 10:10 “I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly” also points clearly to Jesus’ focus on a complete and authentic life in this world, not the next.

I don’t think Christians are ever going to reach a consensus on what we believe. I can see that can be irritating and confusing for non-believers, but our subject matter is pretty large and complex and our own scriptures tell us that at best our understanding of God will always be partial and contingent. Anyway, sociologists, physicists mathematicians, economists, socialists, liberals and even atheists disagree on lots of things. Maybe we can be allowed the same latitude. What is a little unfair is to take characteristics and beliefs that are, I’ll admit, true of certain Christians and assume that they apply to all of them.

I struggle with Sells’ language and ideas too sometimes, but I mostly enjoy his articles (even if I quite often disagree with him too). But he is saying here pretty much what John’s gospel is saying – eternal life is a transformed life here and now, not pie in the sky when you die. And his last point about what it is to be created in God's image is in some ways quite close to Dawkins’ argument that humanity, alone of all species, has the capacity to choose not to act according to biological determinism.

My apologies for misspelling your name Rhian.

>>While in some of these passages you could argue that “eternal life” means “life after death,” in most it clearly doesn’t<<

What percentage, would you think, of the faithful are aware of this fine distinction? Would it not be fair to say that your and Sells' interpretation differs substantially from the mainstream Christian view - that "eternal life" actually means heaven and all that goes with it?

Cardinal Newman wrote the Dream of Gerontius (which I know through Elgar's sublime setting) entirely on the topic of a man's final journey, from life, via a fleeting glimpse of God, through to Purgatory and an eventual promise of heaven.

"And ye, great powers,
Angels of Purgatory, receive from me
My charge, a precious soul, until the day,
When, from all bond and forfeiture released,
I shall reclaim it for the courts of light"

If you were to take a poll of Christians - all types - and asked them whether their understanding of their faith is closer to Newman's or to Sells', which do you think they would select?

>>I don’t think Christians are ever going to reach a consensus on what we believe. I can see that can be irritating and confusing for non-believers<<

If I were you, I'd be far less patronizing about the potential for confusing non-believers, and concentrate your concern on those who actually might care. Who would, I suspect, be those who think of themselves as committed Christians.

>>Anyway, sociologists, physicists mathematicians, economists, socialists, liberals and even atheists disagree on lots of things. Maybe we can be allowed the same latitude.<<

Very few of those you mention sell their product in the manner that Christianity does, and none at all pretends that it can offer everlasting life.

>>And [Sells'] last point about what it is to be created in God's image is in some ways quite close to Dawkins’ argument that humanity, alone of all species, has the capacity to choose not to act according to biological determinism.<<

I will have to take your word for that.

The whole gospel message is totally nullified if there is no heaven and no hell. It seems that Pericles has a better grasp on the Christian faith than some who claim to be believers and followers of Christ. The Apostle Paul made it plainly clear that if there is no resurrection of the dead the Christian faith is useless. Many have willingly gone to their deaths knowing that really they are entering life. Without the resurrection the Christian faith is as impotent as that of any other faiths. Denying the resurrection makes God a liar and Jesus to be a false prophet.

The belief that one day we won't face judgement might be comforting to the god haters and deniers. It won't however change the fact that it is going to happen. Thankfully Christ died a horrible death in order to pay for our punishment. Only complete fools would reject such love and mercy.

My five year old got to see his grandfather alive, and then three weeks later lying in an open coffin. Followed by the body being sent into the fire, and the bones coming out, as bleached as a cow’s skull left out in the sun.

He got to watch as the metal filings, detritus of a long life, were lifted up with a magnet. With me, he carefully wielded one half of a set of large chopsticks as we placed the bones in an urn.

Yep, it did get me to wondering.

10 months later, I was born again.

There are so many responses to death. Yours is just one of them. And while you appear to still be mourning your mother, and angry at anyone with a claim to the afterlife, perhaps this article is just a step toward healing for you.

We all respond to death in different ways. For me, it started a quest for answers, one that I’d abandoned for years with the distractions of life, career, marriage and children. Suddenly, it was very much on the agenda again, and I wasn’t satisfied with the half-baked answers I’d been fed through the catholic school system.

I don’t believe my father-in-law has received the gift of eternal life. I won’t know for sure, but he’d lived a life with his back turned on God, and I’ve learnt that God will respect this choice in death.

Standing on this side of the grave, there is a way to gain confidence in the truth of this matter….and it is not through criticizing those who earnestly seek to know it.

Exactly one year ago, I watched a friend die with multiple brain tumours. I was there moments before his final breath. The day before, while there was so much morphine and very little in the way of consciousness, I read the bible at his bedside. I read Ephesians, and wept at every word. At the same time, my heart leapt with joy.

There is peace and comfort to be found in the word of God. Especially for those bereft.

Wow...I love it when Pericles defends the faith :) this is a good thing!

At least he is reading the Good book!

GENTLE REMINDER to all... it is not 'blind' faith. We believe in events which are testified to by real people, who ate with, saw.. touched the risen Christ. Their testimony is there for all to see/read. It also includes that of Paul.

Make of them what you wish.. this is a choice we have all been given. I just encourage those who choose not to embrace this faith, to refrain from saying it is 'blind'/

Blessings to all.

HOW WONDERFUL it is that so many threads/topics are being raised by non religious people....about religion :) in this I totally rejoice.

Is it possible that we can discuss such matters without our nicks being butchered, our persons attacked, our credibility undermined or our motives questioned? :) Let's hope so. (I address this to myself also)