david f....so Darwin did not inspire the Nazis. Read "From Darwin to Hitler" by Richard Weikart, amongst others. For Christian religious prejudice....is this what inspired the Chief Rabbi of Rome, who lived through the Nazi terror to become a catholic after World War 2? The Holocaust was applied Christianity....now we know pigs fly! The Holocaust was the result of humanistic secularism nurtured by Darwinian thought.

And here we go off with the flying pigs blaming Paul. I think your writings are vehicles of hate so pull the log out of your own eye.

I didn't say the Old testament was the same as the Jewish Bible....re-read my article re the LXX. You obviously don't have much grasp of history other than your own bigoted version.

Your second last para is just plain stupid.......flying pigs again!

Re Isaac Newton.....obviously he embarrases you.

Dear Francis,

Since Jesus did not bring the messianic age he remains a false messiah, as he didn’t do what a messiah is supposed to do.

Please look at
http://www.csustan.edu/history/faculty/weikart/response-to-critics.htm
It is a statement by Weikart to his critics.
In it is the statement “Darwinism did not lead to any one particular political philosophy or practice.” Read the whole thing to see it in context.

The history of German Christianity remains a history of Jew hatred.
The towns where Crusaders massacred Jews in the Crusade of 1096 were Xanten, Wevelinghofen, Neuss, Cologne, Trier, Eller, Metz, Worms, Speyer, Mainz, Prague and Ratisbon.

In http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm you will find Martin Luther’s recommendations for the Jews:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ….
Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed…..
Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.
Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb…
Go to the URL and read the entire document.

The Crusaders represented Catholic attitudes towards Jews and Martin Luther was the founder of Lutheranism.

The Holocaust regretfully remains applied Christianity. I have no idea why the Chief Rabbi converted. Maybe if you can’t lick them join them.

Isaac Newton certainly is no embarrassment to me. He, like Locke and Milton, the three greatest English intellectuals of their time denied the trinity and recognized one God as Unitarians.

In 1933 Hitler had the backing of most of the German churches and signed a Concordat with the Vatican. Neither he nor and any other Nazi was excommunicated. He died in the bosom of Catholicism.

Hitler banned secular humanism within days of taking power. There is a lot of connections of Christianity with Nazism but no connection of Nazism with secular humanism.

The Council for Secular Humanism has a web site where they define the principles of secular humanism.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?page=what&section=main

Secular Humanism is a term which has come into use in the last thirty years to describe a world view with the following elements and principles:

A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith.

Commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence, and scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.

A primary concern with fulfillment, growth, and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general.

A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.

A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.

A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.

A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.

The above principles are compatible with democracy. They are not compatible with Nazism or any other tyranny.

On blind hope and the awful truth are all ideas of dead men . Ideologies serve as the foundation of all governments. Ideas are the source of the conditions on the earth. Ideas that society accepts manifest into social behavour. The only way to replace a bad idea is to replace it with a better idea. Imperialism, monarchism, socialism, communism, democracy and dictatorship are all born of ideas of men long dead. Their ideas still live on and still influence the world.
Death can never kill an idea. every thing is the result of an idea.
Religion is mans idea not Gods. The battle for earth is a battle of ideas. Until we learn Gods big idea for earth we only have mans ideas
and are the source of much strife.
Blind hope and awful truth are not part of Gods Kingdom. His will on earth is as it is in heaven is the kingdom Jesus proclamed. Religious men believing in mans ideas and traditions had Jesus put to death. People perish from lack of knowledge. Gods will is that none perish but ALL BE SAVED. God loves every individual he doesn't have favourites. Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year to all

Still struggling to get a grip on your arguments, Trav.

>>The only presupposition you need to believe my statement is that miracles might be possible<<

This is a nonsense.

It can be used as an argument in favour of the existence of the Easter Bunny.

Or, slightly more relevantly, to believe that Icarus really did fly close to the sun, melt the wax on his wings and fall to his death.

Trooly rooly he did. I know it is impossible, but all you need is a belief that miracles are possible, and suddenly it becomes true.

>>If you're a complete naturalist and will a priori dismiss any claims of miracles despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary, then it isnt possible for you to believe that someone rose from the dead.<<

What is "a complete naturalist" Trav? And I have never been presented with "a mountain of evidence" for the existence of miracles, so I am unable to dismiss them, a priori or otherwise.

Nonetheless, I still believe that it is perfectly reasonable to reject the notion that anyone "rose from the dead" in the form described in the Bible.

I asked whether your assertion that the vast majority of declared Aussie Christians are "practical atheists" was a presupposition, or an assumption? You said:

>>Neither. By practical atheist I mean not church going and Not actively worshipping (this does not necessarily mean church) the God they claim to believe in.<<

From your reply, it is actually both. The presupposition being that all theists are active worshippers, while the assumption is that these are in the majority.

>>40% of Americans regularly attend church, according to recent research. Therefore not as many practical atheists, according to my criteria<<

Again, you presuppose that all people attending church are by definition active worshippers. Social conformity doesn't come into it, mere attendance will brand you as a religionist.

I would suggest that your arguments not only rest upon presuppositions and assumptions, but are wholly and entirely composed of them.

david f.....What is the messianic age?

Read the last para of Weikart's response. I never maintained that Darwin was responsible for Naziism....but his ideas helped. read Weikart's book as well and you'll see the danger of Darwinism. That Darwin was a racist is beyond dispute.

Now you have narrowed Christianity down to German Christianity. I have read luther's "On the Jews and Their Lies".The secularists (Stalin, Hitler, Mao Ze Dong etc)unleashed the world's greatest blooshed in the twentieth century.

The Holocaust is applied secularism nourished by Darwinism. Your response re the Chief Rabbi is silly.Read his book.

Newton etc still believed in God etc....another embarrassment for you.

Read the history of the Concordat. So Hitler died in the bosom of the Church. Read his hatred of catholicism: Alan Bullock

Alan Bullock is a journalist and biographer of Adolf Hitler: It was 'the great position' of the Church that he respected, the fact that it lasted for so many centuries; towards its teaching he showed the sharpest hostility. In Hitler's eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves; he detested its ethics in particular. Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle, and the survival of the fittest. 'Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.' [Hitler's Table Talk, London 1953, p. 57] From political considerations he restrained his anti-clericalism, seeing clearly the dangers of strengthening the Church by persecution. [Hitler's Table Talk, p. 304]

...The truth is that, in matters of religion at least, Hitler was a rationalist and a materialist. 'The dogma of Christianity,' he declared in one of his wartime conversations,gets worn away before the advances of science...The man who lives in communion with nature necessarily finds himself in opposition to the Churches, and that why they're heading for ruin—for science is bound to win. [Hitler's Table Talk, pp. 59-61]

[Bullock, p. 387-88]

NB...Hitler's appeal to Darwinism